XSF Discussion - 2021-05-31


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  12. qrpnxz > no reason to do multiple ports multiple port is certainly easier, i ain't gonna multiplex for no reason
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  15. qrpnxz larma, http/2 https requires alpn btw
  16. moparisthebest larma: the why is because the web is bad and 443 is most likely to work
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  21. larma moparisthebest, we're talking about server-to-server, you won't expect weird firewalls there anyway
  22. larma also, the more we multiplex everything on 443, the more likely it is that future firewalls will block based on alpn
  23. moparisthebest I do, increasingly more hosting services are https only too
  24. moparisthebest I'll be proposing some s2s over websockets shortly as well
  25. qrpnxz larma, mo's mux doesn't use alpn afaik
  26. qrpnxz > s2s over websocket ew why
  27. moparisthebest > increasingly more hosting services are https only too
  28. qrpnxz ah :P
  29. qrpnxz but then you can... just not use that crappy hosting service :)
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  31. moparisthebest Or like, just run a matrix server I guess :)
  32. moparisthebest I'm trying to avoid that being people's conclusion
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  54. larma Easing deployment by doing everything via web sockets is actually an interesting idea
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  266. mathieui What hosting services that aren't "managed php/mysql with limited control over the webserver" only allow http/https ?
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  272. Menel That would mean by by audio and video calls anyway.
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  286. MattJ It's a common thing for what people refer to as "PaaS", such services are relatively common, cheap/free and assume what you deploy will run over HTTPS only
  287. MattJ Also as we discovered with mimi89999 recently, DigitalOcean have a 1-click deploy thing that apparently only works with HTTPS apps
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  289. mimi89999 Not that recently
  290. mimi89999 The other option is to have preconfigured images. That could work on DO and Linode
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  363. MattJ General notice from iteam: we just moved our CI stuff around a bit - the service that automatically builds repository updates (website, XEPs, etc.) when changes or PRs are pushed. Hopefully everything still works, but if anyone sees anything broken next time you push a change, please shout :)
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  463. Zash Those https-only PaaS things, would they let you have end-to-end TLS in those?
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  495. MattJ Generally not, and that's why they're HTTPS-only because they generally have some kind of reverse proxy/load balancer thing going on with automatic certificates
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  499. Zash So even if you could do s2s over websockets, you'd have to do dialback or something.
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  501. jonas’ also I wonder how long they’ll let those connections live
  502. Zash Myeah.
  503. Zash Inb4 s2s over BOSH
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  512. mathieui Zash, enough awfulness for one day
  513. Zash Well it _is_ Monday...
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  530. moparisthebest Did travis-ci say we are eligible for the free tier? curl isn't https://twitter.com/bagder/status/1399113361653178368
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  532. jonas’ moparisthebest, we’re going to find out
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  563. moparisthebest By asking? Seems like you have to ask
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  565. MattJ Yes, by asking
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  568. MattJ But with a week's worth of build time, there's no immediate rush
  569. Zash Whops, where'd the week go!
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  571. jonas’ wish it was over already ;)
  572. MattJ That would have to be a week of continuous builds :)
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  574. MattJ In reality I imagine it will last us months (but I don't have stats)
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  577. Zash Have you seen how long those builds take?
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  590. moparisthebest Wait they charge by wall clock minutes?
  591. moparisthebest Seems like that'd give them an incentive to make them as slow as possible
  592. MattJ They deal in "credits", from deep in their docs it appears that 1 credit = 1 minute
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  597. Sam sourcehut might give us free builds if we ask nicely. Drew *hates* xmpp but in theory we meet his requirements for free service.
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  601. Zash Let's ask Board to ask someone to draft an email that Board can rubber-stamp!
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  612. mdosch Afaik Drew hates every chat thing that's not IRC.
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  727. şişio Where does WhatsApp use XMPP
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  730. mdosch Their protocol is based on XMPP, but no idea how much they diverged now as their implementation is not open.
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  735. şişio But uses XMPP, exact
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  740. şişio Right?
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  747. Zash They were running (modified) ejabberd at some point, with a custom compression layer, and custom authentication, and custom all the things.
  748. emus şişio: The server implementation seems to still have elements from XMPP, shown in a Medium article some time ago. But as said, it used to be. nowadays one cannot tell exaclty
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  753. şişio I understand, so push notification?
  754. Zash At what point does the Prototol of Theseus stop being XMPP? 🙂
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  757. şişio 🤐
  758. şişio > I wrote: > I understand, so push notification? This is same ı think
  759. şişio > I wrote: > I understand, so push notification? This is same too ı think
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  763. şişio The use of XMPP is very wide, which made me happy
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  770. mdosch > Prototol of Theseus The what?
  771. Zash mdosch, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
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  775. mdosch Ah like a band where after some years 0 of the founding members are left. ^^
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  786. emus şişio: where are you located that you want to use XMPP?
  787. şişio Turkey
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  790. mdosch emus: Why does the location matter?
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  794. emus It doesn't matter, I am just interested from where people are reaching out
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  798. Menel > mdosch, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus Thats in reality true for aircrafts. There are aircrafts where nearly every part was replaced that still fly. And the human body of course.
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  823. şişio Most of the 85k servers are private, I think.
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  830. şişio Hidden
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  832. emus Where you got that number from again?
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  834. Zash https://blog.prosody.im/2020-retrospective/ ?
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  838. şişio > Zash wrote: > https://blog.prosody.im/2020-retrospective/ ? Yes, this.
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  852. emus thanks
  853. emus maybe we should link that on the website?
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  855. şişio > emus wrote: > maybe we should link that on the website? That'd be nice
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  858. Zash Wasn't that in the newsletter already?
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  918. mdosch I'm sure it was.
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  966. emus Zash: yes, Im sorry. Sometimes I dont have time to fully read the articles. I remeber this though
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  989. şişio :)
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  993. jjrh Does XMPP have a concept of proxies similar to sip where you indicate that in order to reach test.server you need to hop through proxyserver.example?
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  995. Zash No, and that's why it's great!
  996. Zash Unless SRV indirection qualifies for what you want
  997. jjrh I didn't think so - just ran into a situation with a vendor who appears to be doing something weird that looks a bit like this.
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  999. Zash Weird how?
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  1001. jonas’ many clients support bypassing SRV lookups to achieve something like that, but that’s always manually configured. and there’s no such thing for s2s.
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  1004. jjrh yeah this was a case of getting a s2s for a totally invalid domain.
  1005. jjrh You can do stuff like this in SIP so I was wondering if there was a thing like this for XMPP I didn't know about :)
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  1026. Kev You can do this in XMPP, kinda, yes.
  1027. Kev I’m not aware of anyone doing it on the Internet, though.
  1028. Kev https://www.isode.com/whitepapers/xmpp-trunking.html type stuff.
  1029. Kev It’s not exactly what you describe, though.
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  1043. eta what ended up happening to the IETF XMPP trial
  1044. eta ?*
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  1048. Zash it's still up
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  1069. moparisthebest no such thing as going through a proxy for s2s you say? https://www.moparisthebest.com/mod_s2s_outgoing_proxy.lua
  1070. moparisthebest which is just a hacked up https://modules.prosody.im/mod_s2soutinjection.html by the way
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  1072. Zash I'm not sure I have any idea what any of you are talking about.
  1073. Zash I imagined multi-jump email paths.
  1074. moparisthebest I was responding to: > many clients support bypassing SRV lookups to achieve something like that, but that’s always manually configured. and there’s no such thing for s2s.
  1075. Zash The kind of thing that makes you happy that XMPP is normally point-to-point and nothing else.
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  1079. eta Zash: the blog post says the trial should have concluded in January
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  1082. Zash https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/-1vxilB-zNAvIdDcF_lPq_BQmIA/
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  1086. Zash eta: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/-1vxilB-zNAvIdDcF_lPq_BQmIA/ mentions taking them down after ietf 110, which was in march
  1087. eta Zash: ack
  1088. eta hopes they don't end up matrixing
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  1091. Zash I got the impression tha the loudest praise was for Zulip
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  1096. eta makes sense
  1097. eta zulip is basically email but made better
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  1165. qrpnxz lol no
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  1177. jjrh To me it's kinda strange for the IETF to choose a protocol that isn't a IETF standard.
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  1180. Zash Something something protocols vs products.
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  1182. jjrh Other places take that stance and that's fair but I don't think there are examples of the IETF choosing a non ietf protocol when a ietf one exists.
  1183. jjrh It'
  1184. jjrh *It's extra strange to me there aren't more people arguing this exact point
  1185. Zash HTTP is an iETF protocol...
  1186. jjrh I don't follow.
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  1188. Zash therefore Zulip and Matrix are okay. Or something. I'm not sure if that's something from a nightmare or a mailing list.
  1189. jjrh I sure hope no ones making that argument because TCP is a ietf protocol too
  1190. Zash comes across a post using "XMPP is almost dead" as argument
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