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qrpnxz
> no reason to do multiple ports multiple port is certainly easier, i ain't gonna multiplex for no reason
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qrpnxz
larma, http/2 https requires alpn btw
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moparisthebest
larma: the why is because the web is bad and 443 is most likely to work
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larma
moparisthebest, we're talking about server-to-server, you won't expect weird firewalls there anyway
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larma
also, the more we multiplex everything on 443, the more likely it is that future firewalls will block based on alpn
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moparisthebest
I do, increasingly more hosting services are https only too
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moparisthebest
I'll be proposing some s2s over websockets shortly as well
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qrpnxz
larma, mo's mux doesn't use alpn afaik
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qrpnxz
> s2s over websocket ew why
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moparisthebest
> increasingly more hosting services are https only too
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qrpnxz
ah :P
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qrpnxz
but then you can... just not use that crappy hosting service :)
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moparisthebest
Or like, just run a matrix server I guess :)
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moparisthebest
I'm trying to avoid that being people's conclusion
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larma
Easing deployment by doing everything via web sockets is actually an interesting idea
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mathieui
What hosting services that aren't "managed php/mysql with limited control over the webserver" only allow http/https ?
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Menel
That would mean by by audio and video calls anyway.
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MattJ
It's a common thing for what people refer to as "PaaS", such services are relatively common, cheap/free and assume what you deploy will run over HTTPS only
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MattJ
Also as we discovered with mimi89999 recently, DigitalOcean have a 1-click deploy thing that apparently only works with HTTPS apps
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mimi89999
Not that recently
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mimi89999
The other option is to have preconfigured images. That could work on DO and Linode
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MattJ
General notice from iteam: we just moved our CI stuff around a bit - the service that automatically builds repository updates (website, XEPs, etc.) when changes or PRs are pushed. Hopefully everything still works, but if anyone sees anything broken next time you push a change, please shout :)
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Zash
Those https-only PaaS things, would they let you have end-to-end TLS in those?
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MattJ
Generally not, and that's why they're HTTPS-only because they generally have some kind of reverse proxy/load balancer thing going on with automatic certificates
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Zash
So even if you could do s2s over websockets, you'd have to do dialback or something.
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jonas’
also I wonder how long they’ll let those connections live
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Zash
Myeah.
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Zash
Inb4 s2s over BOSH
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mathieui
Zash, enough awfulness for one day
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Zash
Well it _is_ Monday...
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moparisthebest
Did travis-ci say we are eligible for the free tier? curl isn't https://twitter.com/bagder/status/1399113361653178368
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jonas’
moparisthebest, we’re going to find out
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moparisthebest
By asking? Seems like you have to ask
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MattJ
Yes, by asking
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MattJ
But with a week's worth of build time, there's no immediate rush
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Zash
Whops, where'd the week go!
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jonas’
wish it was over already ;)
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MattJ
That would have to be a week of continuous builds :)
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MattJ
In reality I imagine it will last us months (but I don't have stats)
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Zash
Have you seen how long those builds take?
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moparisthebest
Wait they charge by wall clock minutes?
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moparisthebest
Seems like that'd give them an incentive to make them as slow as possible
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MattJ
They deal in "credits", from deep in their docs it appears that 1 credit = 1 minute
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Sam
sourcehut might give us free builds if we ask nicely. Drew *hates* xmpp but in theory we meet his requirements for free service.
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Zash
Let's ask Board to ask someone to draft an email that Board can rubber-stamp!
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mdosch
Afaik Drew hates every chat thing that's not IRC.
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şişio
Where does WhatsApp use XMPP
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mdosch
Their protocol is based on XMPP, but no idea how much they diverged now as their implementation is not open.
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şişio
But uses XMPP, exact
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şişio
Right?
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Zash
They were running (modified) ejabberd at some point, with a custom compression layer, and custom authentication, and custom all the things.
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emus
şişio: The server implementation seems to still have elements from XMPP, shown in a Medium article some time ago. But as said, it used to be. nowadays one cannot tell exaclty
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şişio
I understand, so push notification?
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Zash
At what point does the Prototol of Theseus stop being XMPP? 🙂
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şişio
🤐
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şişio
> I wrote: > I understand, so push notification? This is same ı think✎ -
şişio
> I wrote: > I understand, so push notification? This is same too ı think ✏
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şişio
The use of XMPP is very wide, which made me happy
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mdosch
> Prototol of Theseus The what?
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Zash
mdosch, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
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mdosch
Ah like a band where after some years 0 of the founding members are left. ^^
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emus
şişio: where are you located that you want to use XMPP?
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şişio
Turkey
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mdosch
emus: Why does the location matter?
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emus
It doesn't matter, I am just interested from where people are reaching out
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Menel
> mdosch, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus Thats in reality true for aircrafts. There are aircrafts where nearly every part was replaced that still fly. And the human body of course.
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şişio
Most of the 85k servers are private, I think.
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şişio
Hidden
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emus
Where you got that number from again?
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Zash
https://blog.prosody.im/2020-retrospective/ ?
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şişio
> Zash wrote: > https://blog.prosody.im/2020-retrospective/ ? Yes, this.
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emus
thanks
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emus
maybe we should link that on the website?
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şişio
> emus wrote: > maybe we should link that on the website? That'd be nice
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Zash
Wasn't that in the newsletter already?
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mdosch
I'm sure it was.
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emus
Zash: yes, Im sorry. Sometimes I dont have time to fully read the articles. I remeber this though
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şişio
:)
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jjrh
Does XMPP have a concept of proxies similar to sip where you indicate that in order to reach test.server you need to hop through proxyserver.example?
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Zash
No, and that's why it's great!
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Zash
Unless SRV indirection qualifies for what you want
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jjrh
I didn't think so - just ran into a situation with a vendor who appears to be doing something weird that looks a bit like this.
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Zash
Weird how?
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jonas’
many clients support bypassing SRV lookups to achieve something like that, but that’s always manually configured. and there’s no such thing for s2s.
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jjrh
yeah this was a case of getting a s2s for a totally invalid domain.
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jjrh
You can do stuff like this in SIP so I was wondering if there was a thing like this for XMPP I didn't know about :)
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Kev
You can do this in XMPP, kinda, yes.
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Kev
I’m not aware of anyone doing it on the Internet, though.
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Kev
https://www.isode.com/whitepapers/xmpp-trunking.html type stuff.
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Kev
It’s not exactly what you describe, though.
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eta
what ended up happening to the IETF XMPP trial
-
eta
?*
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Zash
it's still up
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moparisthebest
no such thing as going through a proxy for s2s you say? https://www.moparisthebest.com/mod_s2s_outgoing_proxy.lua
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moparisthebest
which is just a hacked up https://modules.prosody.im/mod_s2soutinjection.html by the way
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Zash
I'm not sure I have any idea what any of you are talking about.
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Zash
I imagined multi-jump email paths.
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moparisthebest
I was responding to: > many clients support bypassing SRV lookups to achieve something like that, but that’s always manually configured. and there’s no such thing for s2s.
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Zash
The kind of thing that makes you happy that XMPP is normally point-to-point and nothing else.
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eta
Zash: the blog post says the trial should have concluded in January
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Zash
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/-1vxilB-zNAvIdDcF_lPq_BQmIA/
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Zash
eta: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/-1vxilB-zNAvIdDcF_lPq_BQmIA/ mentions taking them down after ietf 110, which was in march
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eta
Zash: ack
- eta hopes they don't end up matrixing
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Zash
I got the impression tha the loudest praise was for Zulip
-
eta
makes sense
-
eta
zulip is basically email but made better
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qrpnxz
lol no
-
jjrh
To me it's kinda strange for the IETF to choose a protocol that isn't a IETF standard.
-
Zash
Something something protocols vs products.
-
jjrh
Other places take that stance and that's fair but I don't think there are examples of the IETF choosing a non ietf protocol when a ietf one exists.
-
jjrh
It'
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jjrh
*It's extra strange to me there aren't more people arguing this exact point
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Zash
HTTP is an iETF protocol...
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jjrh
I don't follow.
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Zash
therefore Zulip and Matrix are okay. Or something. I'm not sure if that's something from a nightmare or a mailing list.
-
jjrh
I sure hope no ones making that argument because TCP is a ietf protocol too
- Zash comes across a post using "XMPP is almost dead" as argument