Sure, but they do a good enough job keeping it up. Alternatively: tons of tiny servers run by individuals who don't have backups and what not also go down even if they use lower resources.
Zash
If the "instant" part of Instant Messaging ever becomes hip again, we'll have a slight edge there too.
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Sam
I don't disagree with you, but I don't think a marketing pitch that says "our servers are slimmer!" Is goingn to be very effective.
moparisthebest
how about "our stuff actually works"
deuill
Anecdotally, I've been told by at least one person that use Conversations or Siskin isn't as good as Viber/Facebook Messenger/etc. because it doesn't have stickers/GIFs. ✏
Sam
From a users perspective matrix works great.
Zash
Sam: I'm basing this on observed fediverse chatter.
Sam
Zash: then you've already selected a tiny subset of people that mostly don't represent the broader internet.
Sam
Again, not disagreeing with any of this, it's jut not something we can market. deuill is more on the right track.
deuill
So I'll agree with Sam's perspective that people are at the very least willing to put up with at least some jank if the features are there.
Zash
I almost typed out that it was probably biased. There'll be bias anywhere you go tho.
mdosch
> From a users perspective matrix works great.
From a user perspective I found their client slow and laggy, on mobile it also devoured my battery. Also those annoying (cross signing?) pop ups. When I wanted to join a fosem talk, I wanted to join that talk and not click away a lot of pop ups first.
Zash
deuill, true.
deuill
I mean the IETF discussion isn't about stickers or GIFs, obviously, but maybe it is about having a cohesive product?
Zash
Users don't care about protocol. As MattJ wrote in some presentation way back, users care about cat pictures and talking to their friends.
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mdosch
I still don't get why their clients get so much praise. I like conversations, gajim, dino and profanity a lot more.
şişio
XMPP is not dead!
Zash
IETF needs something to support their protocol development work, for meetings etc.
As long as someone is running some XMPP software, it's not dead.
DebXWoody
we are also developing software :-)
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moparisthebest
gah I saw the perfect meme representing this on the fediverse months ago but can't find it
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moparisthebest
it was like this one https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/033/984/cover4.jpg but top was "matrix sucks" and the crying guy saying how it was so great etc, then bottom said "xmpp sucks" and an xmpp user saying "I know"
Zash
I too remember seeing this.
emus
> Zash escribió:
> Indeed, our hype machine is severely underfunded.
Yes, I should start more hyping
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şişio
You need money?
şişio
Or XSF
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şişio
Matrix and XMPP serve the same role
şişio
That's the future of XMPP, but Matrix more
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wgreenhouse
şişio: re Matrix + Tor, I don't think that's a real problem; element is a web app and runs fine in tor browser
wgreenhouse
whether they can _federate_ over tor idk
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şişio
> wgreenhouse wrote:
> şişio: re Matrix + Tor, I don't think that's a real problem; element is a web app and runs fine in tor browser
> whether they can _federate_ over tor idk
Mobile?
wgreenhouse
şişio: yes, element in mobile tor browser works fine
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wgreenhouse
also orbotting their official app which is just a webview anyway
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şişio
It's a little impractical.
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wgreenhouse
şişio: sure, but in principle works. it's not an issue of the protocol not working over tor. "protocols not products" ;)
wgreenhouse
I consider xmpp more privacy-preserving, but it's untrue to say matrix can't be used with tor
şişio
😀😀
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şişio
Switching between data, mobile and wifi. Sometimes it doesn't work. therefore
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şişio
But we know both of them safe messenger
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Link Mauve
qrpnxz, I have friends who defintely use a domain which starts with a digit, and it’s been working fine forever, so your parser should be fixed for real-world use-cases even if some interpretations of some RFCs might lead to you disallow it.
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qrpnxz
bro that convo is ages ago and we already concluded that
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şişio
> qrpnxz wrote:
> bro that convo is ages ago and we already concluded that
What is the result
Link Mauve
I’m still backlogging.
qrpnxz
literally weeks ago not looking to rehash it, but yes numbers are ok: 404.city, 4chan.org, 2ch, 8chan, 37signals.com, etc.
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Zash
42elks
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Zash
And thank glob the .42 TLD doesn't exist.
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qrpnxz
y'know, google actually has TLD `google`, but it doesn't route straight to google.com. I wonder if that's actually impossible to do or what.
jonas’
A/AAAA records on TLDs are … frowned upon
jonas’
as are MX records
jonas’
the `io.` TLD once had some
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Zash
Also frowned upon, answering `192.0.2.123. IN A` queries, like my previous ISP used to do.
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moparisthebest
so frowned upon dnsmasq has an option to transform those back to NXDOMAIN
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deuill
Anything you think can't happen in DNS has already happened
qrpnxz
xd
deuill
NS that does horizontal referral to itself, paths that don't resolve based on which of the many NS you end up going through, and more.
mathieui
Zash: you mean the .42 tld died rather
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Zash
The .42 tld is not real, it can't hurt you
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moparisthebest
wait that was an actual TLD ? yikes
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qrpnxz
no harm
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moparisthebest
seems super harmful, is 192.168.1.42 an IPv4 or a domain name :)
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jonas’
moparisthebest, easy, IPv4. a domain name would have a trailing dot :-X
Zash
There's some words in an RFC somewhere, hold on
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qrpnxz
moparisthebest, oh right yeah xd
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Zash
> `domainpart = IP-literal / IPv4address / ifqdn`
> the "IPv4address" and "IP-literal" rules are defined in RFCs 3986 and 6874,
> respectively, and the first-match-wins (a.k.a. "greedy") algorithm described
> in Appendix B of RFC 3986 applies to the matching process
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qrpnxz
even for hostnames this is the case, so that would indeed be read as an ipv4
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qrpnxz
and again no harm except to the fool who made it
Zash
I would like to hope that this means "if it looks like an IP address then it is an IP address"
qrpnxz
i assert so
qrpnxz
and as jonas said if they wanted it to be interpreted as a domain name they would need a trailing dot. Though that would not be able to be used as a jid, which wants that dot stripped.
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Zash
Let's just not go there, stop anyone from registering {0..255}. as a TLD and then live happily ever after.
qrpnxz
unless "enforcements" means to just strip it yourself, not always to reject it
just because ping accepts it doesn't make it a valid serialization of an ipv4 addr
jonas’
qrpnxz, I never said it was, I said reality, not standard or validity :)
moparisthebest
qrpnxz, welcome to the internet where if enough tools accept it as valid, it's valid, regardless of what RFCs say
qrpnxz
yeah but that's not helpful, i'm also talking about reality, but reality of a specific thing
Zash
moparisthebest, which makes it scary that curl now supports it...
jonas’
you’re talking about the theory of a standard, which unfortunately rarely matches the reality :)
jonas’
the difference is real and needs to be acknowledged when writing software :)
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moparisthebest
ah there we go, that curl blog post has all the links to the vulnerabilities I mentioned, nice!
qrpnxz
the case that many tools accept something is not the case that all compliant tools must accept something, which is the only thing i'm interested in
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Zash
Prosody (release versions) will not federate with bare IP addresses and we haven't had all that much complaints about it, so you can certainly get away with _only_ supporting domain names.
jonas’
I (aioxmpp client library dev) had a bunch of folks wanting to talk to IP addresses and it makes for all kinds of trouble
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jonas’
so that’s the flipside of that reality coin
moparisthebest
qrpnxz, unless of course you want interop with any of those other tools
qrpnxz
i have no problem federating with ip addresses so long they have a certificate or even as a special case you can give them credentials
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qrpnxz
moparisthebest, all the tools give you ip addresses in the correct form.
moparisthebest
a recent example is I was sending a perfectly valid stream header and ejabberd wouldn't accept it
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moparisthebest
now you could wave your fist at the air and refuse to federate with any ejabberd in the wild
moparisthebest
.... or send the stream header they expect
qrpnxz
stick it to them
jonas’
reminds me of this:
Jun 01 13:05:05 s2sin55562e999090 debug Received invalid XML (parser error: not-well-formed: unexpected '<?xml' token in text node (expected one of: Text, '<', '</')) 532 bytes: "<?xml version=\'1.0\'?><stream:stream xml:lang=\'en\' to=\'dreckshal.de\' xmlns:db=\'jabber:server:dialback\' version=\'1.0\' xmlns=\'jabber:server\' from=\'search.chinwag.im\' xmlns:stream=\'http://etherx.jabber.org/streams\'><?xml version=\'1.0\'?><stream:stream xml:lang=\'en\' to=\'dreckshal.de\' xmlns:db=\'jabber:serv"
Zash
Outch, owie, my eyes
qrpnxz
wut
jonas’
qrpnxz, and then what? there’ll still be many (and not small) domains in the wild running such software, so you’re faced with the choice of being correct and being interoperable
qrpnxz
yes
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qrpnxz
wait, is ejabberd expecting an invalid header or a valid one
Zash
FTR: Next Prosody major version will support IP address federation, but good luck getting certs for those.
jonas’
qrpnxz, it is expecting a valid one, but not accepting all valid ones
qrpnxz
ah, then i'd send the valid one they expect, but let them know
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moparisthebest
qrpnxz, oops not stream header, stream features https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-proxy/blob/master/src/tls.rs#L183
moparisthebest
I did let them know, but even if I sent a patch, that doesn't magically deploy it everywhere
şişio
Is there a difference in Matrix and XMPP from a security perspective
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qrpnxz
moparisthebest, you better be defining that stream prefix
jonas’
qrpnxz, `xmlns:stream` is already defined on the stream header
jonas’
şişio, this is not the XMPP vs. Matrix room, sorry
moparisthebest
qrpnxz, yep it's of course defined, they should be identical per XML+XMPP rules, but ejabberd only accepts the second and not the first, prosody accepts both
qrpnxz
are you just guessing, i'm asking about moparis' code
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qrpnxz
ol right good
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moparisthebest
I think Holger said that's just some old code hard-coding it the second way, but regardless, can't fix everything at once even if you want
moparisthebest
sometimes you have to go with the status quo instead of the spec :)
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qrpnxz
i thought that ejabberd was supposed to be the respectable paid super-server, not garbage
moparisthebest
it is a great server, everything has bugs
jonas’
~all men must die~ every software has bugs
Zash
it has gotten way better over the years
Holger
ejabberd sometimes has more historical baggage than others due to being older.
qrpnxz
i
qrpnxz
c
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moparisthebest
I almost said "everything has bugs and legacy code" but I realized "legacy code" is often either bug free or bug riddled :)
şişio
> jonas’ wrote:
> qrpnxz, `xmlns:stream` is already defined on the stream header
> şişio, this is not the XMPP vs. Matrix room, sorry
👍
Zash
legacy code has so many bugs nobody wants to touch it, or so few bugs nobody needs to touch it? 🙂
qrpnxz
lol
moparisthebest
or both at the same time
Zash
ah yes, "it works, don't touch it"
moparisthebest
I don't want to seem like I'm picking on ejabberd either, try sending a stream header without version= set to prosody and you'll be in for a fun time too :)
moparisthebest
(RFC says to set it, you might expect a server to reject something without it, but that's not what happens)
jonas’
moparisthebest, haha, yeah, I found that quirky handling while writing xmppstream.rs :D
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moparisthebest
jonas’, did you do the right thing and rm -rf it :D
jonas’
moparisthebest, no, I’m drop-in-replacing, not rewriting :)
jonas’
(the handling is outside xmppstream.lua)
moparisthebest
ah, fair
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jonas’
(amusing was, I found it because aioxmpp rejected the resulting response stream header after xmppstream.rs did emit a nil version because I left that one out at first)
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moparisthebest
I found it because I'm writing all this TLS code, and using a prosody module to hijack all outgoing connections to go through my proxy, and every prosody server I tried to negotiate with rejected my TLS negotiation, even though it looked fine
finally determined the prosody module didn't set version= and prosody rejects even successful TLS if version= is not sent :D
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moparisthebest
but I spent like a week debugging my TLS code on and off lol
qrpnxz
🍹️
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Sam
Reminder that the Office Hours start in 15 minutes! Today's presentation is a demo of ad-hoc commands and forms in Mellium and some discussion about the relevant XEPs. https://socialcoop.meet.coop/sam-pku-dud-niv
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Sam
And we're starting!
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şişio
> Sam wrote:
> And we're starting!
Thanks, Sam!
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lovetox
Sam, was it recorded?
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eevvoor
lovetox, yes.
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eevvoor
But it is difficult to get it out of BBB, as fasr as I know. Let's see whether Sam fiddles his rec aout of BBB :D.
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Zash
It's been done before
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Sam
yah, I don't know if it's worth putting this one up or not though, I'll go back through and see when BBB finishes processing it
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lovetox
i was interested in it because i spent quite some time on the forms GUI in Gajim
lovetox
and wondered about the problems you encountered with the spec
Zash
I wish I had remembered that adhoc demo module earlier.
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emus
Hello everyone, please check if your clients / applications / projects are placed and updated here: https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
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deuill
Also might need to blur out your phone number before you post this on the Internet Sam, heh
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Sam
lovetox: video uploading https://youtu.be/C2oyAfJeqno
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Sam
Sorry for the long rambling look at code; I'll skip that next time and just do the demo and call it done.
Sam
If you were there but left when we originally started the recording, the stuff that happened afterwards where Zash pointed out a cool module we could use to demo it starts at around 27:48 https://youtu.be/C2oyAfJeqno?t=1668