XSF Discussion - 2021-06-01

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  442. şişio XMPP>Matrix
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  447. deuill Matrix *does* have a stronger product apparatus though, which I guess is what people mean when they say that XMPP is "almost dead".
  448. Zash Indeed, our hype machine is severely underfunded.
  449. jonas’ which hype machine
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  453. şişio Xmpp is still alive everything is active
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  458. şişio Only Matrix is new
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  460. şişio Both of them safe but ı prefer XMPP
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  464. şişio Why dead?
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  471. şişio What is a product apparatus
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  473. şişio User?
  474. Zash Marketing department.
  475. şişio This is true
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  477. şişio But still Matrix hasn't got tor option
  478. Zash Why not?
  479. Sam I'm glad that's useful for you, but most people don't need/want a Tor option, so it doesn't help XMPP much.
  480. Sam From a user perspective I don't think we really have any great feature that makes us look better than Matrix, unfortunately.
  481. Zash I don't see why Tor would not work with either.
  482. şişio > Sam wrote: > I'm glad that's useful for you, but most people don't need/want a Tor option, so it doesn't help XMPP much. I need a tor. condition
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  484. moparisthebest "working servers" isn't a great feature that looks better than Matrix ?
  485. Sam Yes, but most people don't. It might attract a small number of people, but not enough to keep the network alive.
  486. şişio > Zash wrote: > I don't see why Tor would not work with either. Sometimes I have to turn off the tor
  487. Sam moparisthebest: no. the users don't know or care about the differences. Only devs do.
  488. Zash Sam: Resource efficiency is one thing we seem to be winning at.
  489. moparisthebest users usually care if the server is down/working or not
  490. deuill Anecdotally, I
  491. Sam Sure, but they do a good enough job keeping it up. Alternatively: tons of tiny servers run by individuals who don't have backups and what not also go down even if they use lower resources.
  492. Zash If the "instant" part of Instant Messaging ever becomes hip again, we'll have a slight edge there too.
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  495. Sam I don't disagree with you, but I don't think a marketing pitch that says "our servers are slimmer!" Is goingn to be very effective.
  496. moparisthebest how about "our stuff actually works"
  497. deuill Anecdotally, I've been told by at least one person that use Conversations or Siskin isn't as good as Viber/Facebook Messenger/etc. because it doesn't have stickers/GIFs.
  498. Sam From a users perspective matrix works great.
  499. Zash Sam: I'm basing this on observed fediverse chatter.
  500. Sam Zash: then you've already selected a tiny subset of people that mostly don't represent the broader internet.
  501. Sam Again, not disagreeing with any of this, it's jut not something we can market. deuill is more on the right track.
  502. deuill So I'll agree with Sam's perspective that people are at the very least willing to put up with at least some jank if the features are there.
  503. Zash I almost typed out that it was probably biased. There'll be bias anywhere you go tho.
  504. mdosch > From a users perspective matrix works great. From a user perspective I found their client slow and laggy, on mobile it also devoured my battery. Also those annoying (cross signing?) pop ups. When I wanted to join a fosem talk, I wanted to join that talk and not click away a lot of pop ups first.
  505. Zash deuill, true.
  506. deuill I mean the IETF discussion isn't about stickers or GIFs, obviously, but maybe it is about having a cohesive product?
  507. Zash Users don't care about protocol. As MattJ wrote in some presentation way back, users care about cat pictures and talking to their friends.
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  509. mdosch I still don't get why their clients get so much praise. I like conversations, gajim, dino and profanity a lot more.
  510. şişio XMPP is not dead!
  511. Zash IETF needs something to support their protocol development work, for meetings etc.
  512. deuill "It's just resting:
  513. deuill "It's just resting"
  514. deuill I jest I jest
  515. Zash As long as someone is running some XMPP software, it's not dead.
  516. DebXWoody we are also developing software :-)
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  534. moparisthebest gah I saw the perfect meme representing this on the fediverse months ago but can't find it
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  536. moparisthebest it was like this one https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/033/984/cover4.jpg but top was "matrix sucks" and the crying guy saying how it was so great etc, then bottom said "xmpp sucks" and an xmpp user saying "I know"
  537. Zash I too remember seeing this.
  538. emus > Zash escribió: > Indeed, our hype machine is severely underfunded. Yes, I should start more hyping
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  554. şişio You need money?
  555. şişio Or XSF
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  587. şişio Matrix and XMPP serve the same role
  588. şişio That's the future of XMPP, but Matrix more
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  595. wgreenhouse şişio: re Matrix + Tor, I don't think that's a real problem; element is a web app and runs fine in tor browser
  596. wgreenhouse whether they can _federate_ over tor idk
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  598. şişio > wgreenhouse wrote: > şişio: re Matrix + Tor, I don't think that's a real problem; element is a web app and runs fine in tor browser > whether they can _federate_ over tor idk Mobile?
  599. wgreenhouse şişio: yes, element in mobile tor browser works fine
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  602. wgreenhouse also orbotting their official app which is just a webview anyway
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  604. şişio It's a little impractical.
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  607. wgreenhouse şişio: sure, but in principle works. it's not an issue of the protocol not working over tor. "protocols not products" ;)
  608. wgreenhouse I consider xmpp more privacy-preserving, but it's untrue to say matrix can't be used with tor
  609. şişio 😀😀
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  618. şişio Switching between data, mobile and wifi. Sometimes it doesn't work. therefore
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  624. şişio But we know both of them safe messenger
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  626. Link Mauve qrpnxz, I have friends who defintely use a domain which starts with a digit, and it’s been working fine forever, so your parser should be fixed for real-world use-cases even if some interpretations of some RFCs might lead to you disallow it.
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  628. qrpnxz bro that convo is ages ago and we already concluded that
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  631. şişio > qrpnxz wrote: > bro that convo is ages ago and we already concluded that What is the result
  632. Link Mauve I’m still backlogging.
  633. qrpnxz literally weeks ago not looking to rehash it, but yes numbers are ok: 404.city, 4chan.org, 2ch, 8chan, 37signals.com, etc.
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  635. Zash 42elks
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  638. Zash And thank glob the .42 TLD doesn't exist.
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  644. qrpnxz y'know, google actually has TLD `google`, but it doesn't route straight to google.com. I wonder if that's actually impossible to do or what.
  645. jonas’ A/AAAA records on TLDs are … frowned upon
  646. jonas’ as are MX records
  647. jonas’ the `io.` TLD once had some
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  649. Zash Also frowned upon, answering ` IN A` queries, like my previous ISP used to do.
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  651. moparisthebest so frowned upon dnsmasq has an option to transform those back to NXDOMAIN
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  653. deuill Anything you think can't happen in DNS has already happened
  654. qrpnxz xd
  655. deuill NS that does horizontal referral to itself, paths that don't resolve based on which of the many NS you end up going through, and more.
  656. mathieui Zash: you mean the .42 tld died rather
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  658. Zash The .42 tld is not real, it can't hurt you
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  668. moparisthebest wait that was an actual TLD ? yikes
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  675. qrpnxz no harm
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  679. moparisthebest seems super harmful, is an IPv4 or a domain name :)
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  681. jonas’ moparisthebest, easy, IPv4. a domain name would have a trailing dot :-X
  682. Zash There's some words in an RFC somewhere, hold on
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  684. qrpnxz moparisthebest, oh right yeah xd
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  686. Zash > `domainpart = IP-literal / IPv4address / ifqdn` > the "IPv4address" and "IP-literal" rules are defined in RFCs 3986 and 6874, > respectively, and the first-match-wins (a.k.a. "greedy") algorithm described > in Appendix B of RFC 3986 applies to the matching process
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  688. qrpnxz even for hostnames this is the case, so that would indeed be read as an ipv4
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  690. qrpnxz and again no harm except to the fool who made it
  691. Zash I would like to hope that this means "if it looks like an IP address then it is an IP address"
  692. qrpnxz i assert so
  693. qrpnxz and as jonas said if they wanted it to be interpreted as a domain name they would need a trailing dot. Though that would not be able to be used as a jid, which wants that dot stripped.
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  696. Zash Let's just not go there, stop anyone from registering {0..255}. as a TLD and then live happily ever after.
  697. qrpnxz unless "enforcements" means to just strip it yourself, not always to reject it
  698. qrpnxz then you could use it
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  700. jonas’ good thing that IPv6 uses colons
  701. moparisthebest is an IP address
  702. jonas’ moparisthebest, SHUSH
  703. Zash jonas’, and is enclosed in []
  704. jonas’ Zash, sometimes
  705. jonas’ (in XMPP, yes)
  706. qrpnxz no way
  707. moparisthebest I swear I just read a vulnerability regarding hex and octal in ip addresses...
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  709. jonas’ (in XMPP always)
  710. jonas’ moparisthebest, also fun is e.g. `10.1` as IPv4
  711. jonas’ or `10.257`
  712. qrpnxz which side is implied
  713. jonas’ or just `2130706433`
  714. qrpnxz are you getting this from rfc 3986
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  716. jonas’ I’m getting this from reality, no idea if that’s in any standard
  717. jonas’ $ ping -c1 2130706433 PING 2130706433 ( 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.073 ms
  718. qrpnxz idk wym by reality
  719. jonas’ see above ^ :)
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  721. Zash https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2021/04/19/curl-those-funny-ipv4-addresses/
  722. qrpnxz just because ping accepts it doesn't make it a valid serialization of an ipv4 addr
  723. jonas’ qrpnxz, I never said it was, I said reality, not standard or validity :)
  724. moparisthebest qrpnxz, welcome to the internet where if enough tools accept it as valid, it's valid, regardless of what RFCs say
  725. qrpnxz yeah but that's not helpful, i'm also talking about reality, but reality of a specific thing
  726. Zash moparisthebest, which makes it scary that curl now supports it...
  727. jonas’ you’re talking about the theory of a standard, which unfortunately rarely matches the reality :)
  728. jonas’ the difference is real and needs to be acknowledged when writing software :)
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  731. moparisthebest ah there we go, that curl blog post has all the links to the vulnerabilities I mentioned, nice!
  732. qrpnxz the case that many tools accept something is not the case that all compliant tools must accept something, which is the only thing i'm interested in
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  735. Zash Prosody (release versions) will not federate with bare IP addresses and we haven't had all that much complaints about it, so you can certainly get away with _only_ supporting domain names.
  736. jonas’ I (aioxmpp client library dev) had a bunch of folks wanting to talk to IP addresses and it makes for all kinds of trouble
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  738. jonas’ so that’s the flipside of that reality coin
  739. moparisthebest qrpnxz, unless of course you want interop with any of those other tools
  740. qrpnxz i have no problem federating with ip addresses so long they have a certificate or even as a special case you can give them credentials
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  742. qrpnxz moparisthebest, all the tools give you ip addresses in the correct form.
  743. moparisthebest a recent example is I was sending a perfectly valid stream header and ejabberd wouldn't accept it
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  745. moparisthebest now you could wave your fist at the air and refuse to federate with any ejabberd in the wild
  746. moparisthebest .... or send the stream header they expect
  747. qrpnxz stick it to them
  748. jonas’ reminds me of this: Jun 01 13:05:05 s2sin55562e999090 debug Received invalid XML (parser error: not-well-formed: unexpected '<?xml' token in text node (expected one of: Text, '<', '</')) 532 bytes: "<?xml version=\'1.0\'?><stream:stream xml:lang=\'en\' to=\'dreckshal.de\' xmlns:db=\'jabber:server:dialback\' version=\'1.0\' xmlns=\'jabber:server\' from=\'search.chinwag.im\' xmlns:stream=\'http://etherx.jabber.org/streams\'><?xml version=\'1.0\'?><stream:stream xml:lang=\'en\' to=\'dreckshal.de\' xmlns:db=\'jabber:serv"
  749. Zash Outch, owie, my eyes
  750. qrpnxz wut
  751. jonas’ qrpnxz, and then what? there’ll still be many (and not small) domains in the wild running such software, so you’re faced with the choice of being correct and being interoperable
  752. qrpnxz yes
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  755. qrpnxz wait, is ejabberd expecting an invalid header or a valid one
  756. Zash FTR: Next Prosody major version will support IP address federation, but good luck getting certs for those.
  757. jonas’ qrpnxz, it is expecting a valid one, but not accepting all valid ones
  758. qrpnxz ah, then i'd send the valid one they expect, but let them know
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  760. moparisthebest qrpnxz, oops not stream header, stream features https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-proxy/blob/master/src/tls.rs#L183
  761. moparisthebest I did let them know, but even if I sent a patch, that doesn't magically deploy it everywhere
  762. şişio Is there a difference in Matrix and XMPP from a security perspective
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  764. qrpnxz moparisthebest, you better be defining that stream prefix
  765. jonas’ qrpnxz, `xmlns:stream` is already defined on the stream header
  766. jonas’ şişio, this is not the XMPP vs. Matrix room, sorry
  767. moparisthebest qrpnxz, yep it's of course defined, they should be identical per XML+XMPP rules, but ejabberd only accepts the second and not the first, prosody accepts both
  768. qrpnxz are you just guessing, i'm asking about moparis' code
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  770. qrpnxz ol right good
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  772. moparisthebest I think Holger said that's just some old code hard-coding it the second way, but regardless, can't fix everything at once even if you want
  773. moparisthebest sometimes you have to go with the status quo instead of the spec :)
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  780. qrpnxz i thought that ejabberd was supposed to be the respectable paid super-server, not garbage
  781. moparisthebest it is a great server, everything has bugs
  782. jonas’ ~all men must die~ every software has bugs
  783. Zash it has gotten way better over the years
  784. Holger ejabberd sometimes has more historical baggage than others due to being older.
  785. qrpnxz i
  786. qrpnxz c
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  789. moparisthebest I almost said "everything has bugs and legacy code" but I realized "legacy code" is often either bug free or bug riddled :)
  790. şişio > jonas’ wrote: > qrpnxz, `xmlns:stream` is already defined on the stream header > şişio, this is not the XMPP vs. Matrix room, sorry 👍
  791. Zash legacy code has so many bugs nobody wants to touch it, or so few bugs nobody needs to touch it? 🙂
  792. qrpnxz lol
  793. moparisthebest or both at the same time
  794. Zash ah yes, "it works, don't touch it"
  795. moparisthebest I don't want to seem like I'm picking on ejabberd either, try sending a stream header without version= set to prosody and you'll be in for a fun time too :)
  796. moparisthebest (RFC says to set it, you might expect a server to reject something without it, but that's not what happens)
  797. jonas’ moparisthebest, haha, yeah, I found that quirky handling while writing xmppstream.rs :D
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  800. moparisthebest jonas’, did you do the right thing and rm -rf it :D
  801. jonas’ moparisthebest, no, I’m drop-in-replacing, not rewriting :)
  802. jonas’ (the handling is outside xmppstream.lua)
  803. moparisthebest ah, fair
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  810. jonas’ (amusing was, I found it because aioxmpp rejected the resulting response stream header after xmppstream.rs did emit a nil version because I left that one out at first)
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  814. moparisthebest I found it because I'm writing all this TLS code, and using a prosody module to hijack all outgoing connections to go through my proxy, and every prosody server I tried to negotiate with rejected my TLS negotiation, even though it looked fine
  815. qrpnxz total sadnes
  816. qrpnxz total sadness
  817. moparisthebest finally determined the prosody module didn't set version= and prosody rejects even successful TLS if version= is not sent :D
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  819. moparisthebest but I spent like a week debugging my TLS code on and off lol
  820. qrpnxz 🍹️
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  901. Sam Reminder that the Office Hours start in 15 minutes! Today's presentation is a demo of ad-hoc commands and forms in Mellium and some discussion about the relevant XEPs. https://socialcoop.meet.coop/sam-pku-dud-niv
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  922. Sam And we're starting!
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  1032. şişio > Sam wrote: > And we're starting! Thanks, Sam!
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  1125. lovetox Sam, was it recorded?
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  1138. eevvoor lovetox, yes.
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  1140. eevvoor But it is difficult to get it out of BBB, as fasr as I know. Let's see whether Sam fiddles his rec aout of BBB :D.
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  1142. Zash It's been done before
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  1145. Sam yah, I don't know if it's worth putting this one up or not though, I'll go back through and see when BBB finishes processing it
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  1166. lovetox i was interested in it because i spent quite some time on the forms GUI in Gajim
  1167. lovetox and wondered about the problems you encountered with the spec
  1168. Zash I wish I had remembered that adhoc demo module earlier.
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  1234. emus Hello everyone, please check if your clients / applications / projects are placed and updated here: https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
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  1243. deuill Also might need to blur out your phone number before you post this on the Internet Sam, heh
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  1264. Sam lovetox: video uploading https://youtu.be/C2oyAfJeqno
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  1266. Sam Sorry for the long rambling look at code; I'll skip that next time and just do the demo and call it done.
  1267. Sam If you were there but left when we originally started the recording, the stuff that happened afterwards where Zash pointed out a cool module we could use to demo it starts at around 27:48 https://youtu.be/C2oyAfJeqno?t=1668
  1268. Sam stopped the recording, even.
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