XSF Discussion - 2021-06-09

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  363. inez hello, this is my first XMPP message.
  364. Zash Hi, welcome
  365. inez this is a very cool technology, I wish more people were on here.
  366. inez is there anything I should know about XMPP? are there any stupid mistakes to avoid? or should I just learn as I go.
  367. Daniel as a developer or as a user?
  368. inez Just as a user for now.
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  370. eevvoor just learn, dont share private confidential information and enjoy.
  371. eevvoor Heartly welcome :-) inez
  372. eevvoor Perhaps you wanno explore the group chats.
  373. eevvoor Perhaps you wanna explore the group chats.
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  380. Dan C Is this the right forum to ask questions about XEPs?
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  382. Dan C I've been reading XEP-0045, and either there's an error, or I've misunderstood
  383. Zash Yes, this is a good place to ask.
  384. Dan C https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-61 shows the one-to-one messages exchanged between two users prior to converting to a MUC
  385. Dan C https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-63 shows the owner of the new muc emitting the one-to-one conversation history into the muc
  386. Dan C Is the 2nd message in the 2nd example incorrect? It doesn't contain any context of the original author of the message (wiccarocks@...)
  387. inez thank you eevvoor
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  389. jonas’ Dan C, hi! Yes, this is a good place.
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  391. Zash Dan C, the text under talks about the delayed delivery stamp indicating that, but you are right in that the example seems to be wrong.
  392. Dan C How can I contribute fixes?
  393. jonas’ The question is complicated though. I don’t know if any client actually implements that. You’re right to point out that the information is missing, but I’m hesitant to call the example wrong; I don’t think there is any protocol which could be used instead.
  394. jonas’ Zash, the delayed delivery does not indicate the original sedner.
  395. jonas’ and the delayed delivery havign from="original sender" would be wrong, because the original sender wasn’t the entity delaying
  396. jonas’ this would be more of a case for Stanza Forwarding, but that didn’t exist yet
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  398. jonas’ Dan C, in general, fixes can be contributed on github (https://github.com/xsf/xeps).
  399. jonas’ For XEPs which are Draft or later (see the graphic at the top of the document), the fixes need to be approved by the XMPP Council (to avoid unintended breaking changes)
  400. jonas’ we are also currently trialing a thing where changes must be brought to the standards@ mailing list first
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  402. John Welcome inez
  403. John Anybody else know their first XMPP message?
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  406. jonas’ -> https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards
  407. jonas’ Dan C, and changing what you pointed out... definitley needs to have broader discussion, as it wouldn’t be immediately clear to me (and probably many others) what the *right* fix would be
  408. inez Thanks, John. How do you do that colored text thing? Is it just when someone mentions your name automatically? (Maybe something my client does? I'm using Gajim)
  409. Dan C On it. Thanks Jonas!
  410. John inez: yes because I mentioned your nickname
  411. Ge0rG Dan C: the challenge is how to add 1:1 messages into a room in a secure fashion
  412. inez Oh, okay, cool! Thank you for explaining that. :)
  413. jonas’ Dan C, so the concrete way forward would be either: - Propose a patch on github and bring it up for discussion on standards@ - Bring the issue up on standards@ first and look for consensus for a fix there
  414. jonas’ A specific patch is generally good because it gives something to discuss about, so if it’s not too much hassle to you, I suggest the first option.
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  416. Dan C Perfect! Thanks!
  417. Ge0rG I would suggest using https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html and some useful client-side indication that history might be fake.
  418. jonas’ +1 for stanza forwarding, because it’ll render blank on unsupporting clients :)
  419. jonas’ though I don’t want to imagine what <forwarded/> inside type="groupchat" does to stupid '280 implementations
  420. Ge0rG also it allows proper attribution
  421. Ge0rG jonas’: I hope we have sorted them all out
  422. Ge0rG you could also have some weird in-body quote style
  423. Zash Not just ``` <delay xmlns='urn:xmpp:delay' - from='crone1@shakespeare.lit/desktop' + from='wiccarocks@shakespeare.lit/laptop' ``` on the second message in example 63?
  424. Dan C That was my initial thought, Zash, to simply fix the current example.
  425. John inez: also the text can be colored with XHTML
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  427. Zash which seems to be supported by > Note: Use of the Delayed Delivery protocol enables the room creator to specify the datetime [...], as well as the JID of the original sender of each message (via the 'from' attribute);
  428. inez <p style="color: fuchsia"> I've never used XHTML before, I don't think I'll do it right the first time.</p>
  429. Dan C But certainly the security considerations are worrying. The idea of someone choosing to put "our" private conversation into a potentially public MUC without consent is worrying. The XEP says "Sends history of the one-to-one chat to the room (this is purely discretionary; however, because it might cause information leakage, the client ought to warn the user before doing so)" but this is a note, not a requirement. There's nothing I, as a user, could do to restrict that loss of privacy. Enforcing that it's a members-only MUC might alleviate that specific example?
  430. inez wait no tha's CSS
  431. jonas’ Zash, no, because wiccarocks is not who delayed it.
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  433. jonas’ > The Jabber ID of the entity that originally sent the XML stanza or that delayed the delivery of the stanza (e.g., the address of a multi-user chat room).
  434. jonas’ *sigh*
  435. jonas’ of course it’s unclear what @from means
  436. jonas’ well, then that could do
  437. Dan C 😃
  438. Zash Oh great
  439. Zash Wait does that mean I'm wrong about needing an origin-timestamp xep?
  440. John inez, LIKE TISH
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  442. Dan C Is there a use case where it would be useful to have crone1 in that field?
  443. jonas’ Dan C, well, the privacy stuff isn’t something you can fix in a standard. A client (or user) can always take a screeshot of your conversation and post it to facebook :)
  444. inez I can see the color, but I can't see how you did it :/
  445. John inez, your client does not fully support it
  446. inez oh, what client do you use?
  447. John eyeCU
  448. Ge0rG Dan C: in practice, anybody can forward any private messages to any public room. It's just a matter of clients doing it by default / automatically / without user consent
  449. inez Maybe I will try out other clients. I've only used Gajim and Pidgin.
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  453. Dan C Thanks Zash, jonas’, Ge0rG ❤️
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  472. şişio > https://www.w3schools.com/js/js_json_xml.asp What about
  473. şişio Imo XMPP better 😂
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  493. John şişio, I think they intentionally used that XML example to show JSON shorter
  494. şişio > John wrote: > şişio, I think they intentionally used that XML example to show JSON shorter Maybe
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  502. şişio I will stay XMPP
  503. şişio I will stay on the XMPP
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  550. croax şişio: A humble opinion: XML / JSON don't really matter at all. XMPP is much more than XML and could also be JSON one day. It's the modular approach of the protocol (can be extremely simple or lots of funtionalities) and federation that makes its strength.
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  553. MattJ Exactly
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  585. jonas’ or EXI
  586. Zash or ASN.1
  587. jonas’ or s-expressions
  588. qy shudders
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  613. deuill CSV or bust
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  615. moparisthebest HL7
  616. Zash Is there an ASN.1 serialization format for s-expressions?
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  621. croax or CBOR
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  631. deuill I seem to remember there as an XEP (perhaps one with no number assigned) that proposed a binary encoding for C2S stanzas, for devices where XML encoding and decoding was too resource-intensive?
  632. Zash EXI?
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  644. deuill Hmmmm yeah that seems about right (though I remembered one of the authors with an @nokia.com email, for some reason). I guess there's no real need for such complexity these days, when an ESP32 can run circles around most mobile CPUs from 20 years ago.
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  647. Zash I hear it's good for IoT devices and stuff.
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  802. mathieui deuill: consuming the least required power is always a good thing in tight scenarios
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  833. moparisthebest I'd be surprised if EXI consumed a measurable amount of power less than XML
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  837. Menel Maybe its measurable if you have millions of messages per day. But then other micro optimizations would also be a big chance.
  838. mathieui moparisthebest: power (and bandwidth!) for data transfer aswell
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  841. mathieui The #1 power draw in my laptop is the wifi chip :p
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  847. jonas’ tell me about it
  848. jonas’ I am deep down in the XML parsing/processing optimization rabbithole :)
  849. moparisthebest I'd be surprised if EXI consumed a measurable amount of bandwidth less than compressed XML
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  851. Ge0rG Compressed XML is a security risk
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  854. Ge0rG Also the benefit I see with EXI is that you can filter stanzas unknown to the client on the server side
  855. moparisthebest As implemented currently yes, doesn't have to be
  856. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the problem is known for how long now? Eight years?
  857. moparisthebest Also what evidence do you have that EXI isn't a security risk, I think last time we discussed it we determined it had the same security problem
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  860. Zash How was it, EXI has optional zlib or such?
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  862. Menel I always wonderd why we don't use compression anymore with an updated method. Also that security risk sounds highly theoretical in the first place..
  863. moparisthebest The compression fix has been known for that long too iirc?
  864. moparisthebest Just no one has written a spec or implemented it
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  867. jonas’ moparisthebest, EXI knows more about the stream, so my base assumption (from experience of benchmarking different compression algorithms on small subsets of data against a specialized one) would be that it’s better than generic compression
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  869. jonas’ and that without the risk of generic compressoin
  870. jonas’ and that without the risk of generic compression
  871. jonas’ because it knows more about the stream :)
  872. jonas’ one major use case would be for instance to tell it about base64 things
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  874. jonas’ you get the base64 overhead completely reverted, with zero risk of generic compression schemes
  875. Zash Mmmmm
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  878. jonas’ and of course put the stream-level element name in a single byte, because they fit in that (with 0xff for "unexpected thing, localname/nsuri pair follows" for instance) instead of N bytes.
  879. jonas’ (disclaimer: I only briefly looked at EXI and talked to Arc about it a bit, but my understanding is that this is essentially how it works)
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  888. jonas’ next, generic compression is memory intensive (IIRC that was also a good reason not to have it enabled server side?); EXI would probably not be that, or at least you can more easily share the state across streams
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  893. moparisthebest EXI has dictionaries and such too which could make it vulnerable to CRIME style attacks
  894. Zash <hat:server-implementer>Yes, compression uses a ton of extra memory per connection. Happy without that</>
  895. Zash moparisthebest, only if the dictionaries can be influenced by an attacker
  896. moparisthebest and yes, you are right of course that specialized compression can be better, but it's an issue of how much better, and if it's worth actually doing it
  897. moparisthebest vs throwing XML at zstd or whatever
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  900. Zash Using a fixed dictionary likely falls in between generic zlib and EXI
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  913. qy > moparisthebest wrote: > HL7 *screams*
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  917. moparisthebest a fellow healthcare ~~sufferer~~worker I see
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  950. şişio > > <@wuuko:matrix.org> But I still don't understand how XMPP is central. > XMPP as a whole isn't; your user account exists on the server you choose, and all the servers talk to each other, so it's federated (a form of decentralization) just like Matrix in that sense. but when you create a MUC, it exists on the server that it's created on, and that server is responsible for it - if the server goes down, the room is down too
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  972. şişio What about?
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  975. şişio But ı think public chats are not important. And XMPP has got default e2e
  976. şişio https://upload.blabber.im/3c9f8e644cf7bee0/009a46f716dd96f2.jpg
  977. şişio But rvick doc files e2e is partial
  978. qy moparisthebest; i only worked there temporarily
  979. qy that was enough...
  980. moparisthebest qy: the brain damage is permanent though
  981. şişio What's the hell happened?
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  1027. robertooo E2EE in XMPP is not partial. It's perfectly secure, just like Signal.
  1028. şişio > robertooo wrote: > E2EE in XMPP is not partial. It's perfectly secure, just like Signal. Yes default
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  1032. şişio I shared the picture
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  1042. şişio I between the XMPP and Matrix. Which and why is better? My goal is security and privacy.
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  1061. qrpnxz robertooo, has it been audited at all. That's the only thing that concerns me.
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  1069. MattJ qrpnxz, https://conversations.im/omemo/audit.pdf
  1070. qrpnxz danke
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  1128. emus For my talk today (with some fun in mind) I defined the XMPP Bermuda triangle 😉 😊️
  1129. emus https://jabbers.one:5281/upload/RcbN5ekuxgkcBm7k/3a23afd2-fba9-4020-a1c5-4dcb0dffbadc.png
  1130. mdosch > I between the XMPP and Matrix. Which and why is better? > My goal is security and privacy. I'd go for xmpp, but what answer did you expect in an xmpp MUC?
  1131. mdosch If your goal is most privacy/security neither xmpp nor matrix are what you want.
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  1133. şişio > mdosch wrote: > If your goal is most privacy/security neither xmpp nor matrix are what you want. What do I need?
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  1135. mdosch No idea, maybe tox or briar?
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  1137. Zash Maybe a cabin in the woods?
  1138. moparisthebest ^ yep, need to just turn off all electronics and live in a cave
  1139. mdosch > Maybe a cabin in the woods? And potatoe fields!
  1140. moparisthebest but if you want tech, XMPP is the best
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  1143. moparisthebest of course you aren't going to get a fair comparison here, people here have generally already evaluated options and chosen XMPP
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  1154. şişio > mdosch wrote: > No idea, maybe tox or briar? Briar is best but only Android
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  1173. şişio And Briar hasnt got offline message
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  1175. şişio Bucause there is no server
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  1216. şişio So the remaining xmpp and matrix
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  1223. şişio But true, Briar is best.
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  1232. mdosch > And Briar hasnt got offline message > Bucause there is no server You want maximum security or comfort? Offline messages need a server to be stored on. A server storing stuff is not 100% security (if such a thing even exists).
  1233. John > And potatoe fields! And furnace to craft some primitive XEPs
  1234. mdosch goes and listens to Bloodbaths 'Furnace Funeral'.
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  1237. mathieui mdosch: you technically don't need a "server" for offline messages, but to handle that in a p2p network you need to replicate it across several nodes to maximize the probability of getting it delivered, and now since nodes store things for the others that opens a whole new can of worms
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  1251. şişio > mdosch wrote: > You want maximum security or comfort? Offline messages need a server to be stored on. A server storing stuff is not 100% security (if such a thing even exists). So how does your own server compare to Briar?
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  1288. dwd What's the threat model? Who do you wish to be secure *from*?
  1289. Menel I remember you asked the same questions some days ago already. What is bothering you that you are again and again uneasy with xmpp, and in between post "❤️xmpp " and stuff? Maybe think about what you don't like about xmpp that you can't settle
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