XSF Discussion - 2021-06-17

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  183. Chan Shen https://infosec-handbook.eu/blog/xmpp-aitm/
  184. Chan Shen Did XSF members try to fix these issues ???
  185. jonas’ Chan Shen, you can use end-to-end encryption (e.g. OMEMO) to avoid the admin reading your messages.
  186. jonas’ many servers support the SCRAM authentication, which avoids cleartext passwords (ejabberd disables it by default for reasons™ I think)
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  188. jonas’ test 1/2 show just data which exists in all server-based communication systems
  189. Chan Shen > jonas’ wrote: > Chan Shen, you can use end-to-end encryption (e.g. OMEMO) to avoid the admin reading your messages. It doesn't fix all of these issues
  190. jonas’ (established connections alongside with state and public data)
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  194. jonas’ all over all, this article documents a lot of things which are kind of obvious when you look at the design decisions of XMPP (and many other protocols). it is a server-based federated chat protocol, which means that things like "injecting (unauthenticated) messages on the server side" is just how things work; if authentication of messages is needed, E2EE (such as OMEMO) needs to be employed to thwart that.
  195. jonas’ likewise, the server is used to share data between clients on the same account (such as the roster), which implicitly gives the server some power over the roster…
  196. jonas’ (and other such data)
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  198. Chan Shen > jonas’ wrote: > all over all, this article documents a lot of things which are kind of obvious when you look at the design decisions of XMPP (and many other protocols). it is a server-based federated chat protocol, which means that things like "injecting (unauthenticated) messages on the server side" is just how things work; if authentication of messages is needed, E2EE (such as OMEMO) needs to be employed to thwart that. > likewise, the server is used to share data between clients on the same account (such as the roster), which implicitly gives the server some power over the roster… > (and other such data) How about matrix ???
  199. jonas’ I am no Matrix expert.
  200. jonas’ but I am sure if you ask their marketing, they’ll tell you it’s all fine there.
  201. jonas’ I am certain that you can see for instance client connections with public IPs on a matrix server though, that’s just how it works.
  202. jonas’ no idea how their contact list stuff works, so I can’t comment on that. I’d be surprised if it was considerably different from what XMPP has in that regard though.
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  204. Chan Shen > jonas’ wrote: > I am certain that you can see for instance client connections with public IPs on a matrix server though, that’s just how it works. https://serpentsec.1337.cx/matrix
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  243. xutaxkamay on a privacy side i think we could get rid off metadata by suppressing the servers and using peer to peer which i believe is possible in xmpp (correct me if i'm wrong) but i guess all parties must be connected in order to talk to each others and need their ip addresses, routers could still theorically get infos but if the communication is encrypted it should be fine
  244. jonas’ server-less messaging is only specified for LAN use cases
  245. jonas’ not for WAN
  246. jonas’ (it relies on mdns, which is not routed)
  247. jonas’ (it relies on mdns, which is not generally routed)
  248. xutaxkamay wouldn't it work with something like i2p?
  249. jonas’ and you cannot have multi-user chats in the specs as written
  250. xutaxkamay i see
  251. jonas’ I have no idea how i2p works and how XMPP plays into that
  252. jonas’ (and I don’t know of any spec)
  253. jonas’ (when I say "it doesn’t work" or "does not exist", I talk about specs as written)
  254. xutaxkamay yeah right
  255. jonas’ but if you drop the servers from the scheme, it’s not really XMPP anymore. you can go with briar or tox or whatever then :)
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  257. jonas’ XMPP is a federated, not a peer-to-peer system, by design and choice
  258. Zash s2s is p2p, after a fashion
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  260. jonas’ if every individual runs a server, yes
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  262. Zash that's what p2p is. everyone running servers. have fun with those trade-offs on mobile
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  264. xutaxkamay i see, it is possible somehow to prove that we don't collect any meta data except hashed password and email on a server?
  265. jonas’ xutaxkamay, no, because that’s not true
  266. xutaxkamay well i guess giving ssh access
  267. Zash ... and email?
  268. xutaxkamay but probably not a good idea
  269. xutaxkamay ops
  270. jonas’ how would you prove that the ssh access is really accessing the server, and not a chroot/jail which just *looks* like the server with all the important data stripped out? :)
  271. xutaxkamay i meant address
  272. Zash what the federated client-server model gives you is choice. choice in who you trust to run your server and who has access to your metadata.
  273. xutaxkamay there is things, i guess but yep technically you could do anything
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  275. xutaxkamay i see, well i guess the best is to run your own server in that case then
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  277. jonas’ xutaxkamay, well, a server will generally also store an archive of messages, the roster, things published via PEP, ..., so "hash of password + address" does not quite cover it, at all.
  278. Zash it can also remain online while you're out of range of wifi or cell networks, which simplifies things.
  279. xutaxkamay > jonas’ wrote: > xutaxkamay, well, a server will generally also store an archive of messages, the roster, things published via PEP, ..., so "hash of password + address" does not quite cover it, at all. if the config is done correctly it should be okay, but yeah i was just saying self-host at home only for your only user and join others servers with it and theorically customize the server so it leaks less as possible informations but it does take indeed time
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  495. ralphm I may be (too) late yoday
  496. ralphm Today, too
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  503. dwd You can minimize collectable metadata by never talking to anyone. Doesn't seem ideal to me, though.
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  505. Zash Arrange a face-to-face meeting in the woods. Leave your phones at home.
  506. dwd What if someone is watching?
  507. Zash Deeper into the woods!
  508. Zash Make sure the foliage gives enough coverage to hide you from the satellites!
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  514. dwd But how do we arrange the meeting securely without someone else hearing?
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  518. dwd I mean, obviously we arrange a meeting in the woods to arrange a meeting in the woods, but that has some obvious flaws.
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  521. Zash It's meetings in the woods all the way back!
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  525. moparisthebest DWRoX - Deep Woods Rendezvous over XMPP is the clear solution here
  526. dwd Do we have Board members here? arc / MattJ / ralphm ?
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  535. MattJ Here
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  544. dwd Two member does not a Board make.
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  592. ralphm Sorry guys. Also arc has connection issues with his server. I think it is a DNS server not responding.
  593. şişio Are messages deleted from the server after a certain day
  594. Zash şişio, up to each server
  595. Zash şişio, up to each server admin to decide
  596. şişio > Zash wrote: > şişio, up to each server admin to decide How?
  597. şişio Does it change from server to server
  598. ralphm Yes, local policy
  599. MattJ I want it to be user policy, but I (and nobody else) has written the XEP yet...
  600. mdosch That would be great.
  601. şişio > ralphm wrote: > Yes, local policy 👍
  602. Menel Instead of mam"=yes/no/contacts that would be good indeed.
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  605. MattJ Yes, I want to deprecate that configuration in favour of retention configuration
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  608. MattJ (within bounds set by the server operator)
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  611. Zash I also want this instead of persistent=yes|no for MUC
  612. MattJ That one I think can just go entirely, to be replaced by operator config. If the owner wants a MUC destroyed sooner, they can do so. Likely there is an upper bound that an operator would want for an empty room, might as well just use that as the TTL
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  643. Zash Even simpler!
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