XSF Discussion - 2021-06-24

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  210. Kev After the comment on the list about the carbons/MAM race condition, I was thinking further on this last night/this morning. It’s *really* unpleasant to solve. Easy to solve in protocol, horrible to try to actually implement said protocol.
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  212. Ge0rG Kev: a carbons/MAM race condition post on the ML? I haven't sent any mails for months now!
  213. flow Kev, care to elaborate on the last part?
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  215. flow is there some resource where the issues and potential solutions are listed? a wiki page? I know there were countless discussions of this, but sadly, the details a no longer in my memory (but probably in background storage somehwere ;))
  216. Ge0rG pick a random ML post by me about carbons and or mam ;)
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  218. Kev Basic situation is that as a client you’d like to be able to login, enable carbons before receiving any messages and know the MAM ID directly preceeding the first message you will receive. (i.e. you don’t get dupes and you don’t get holes)
  219. Kev But on the server actually achieving that is rather unpleasant when the MAM query is going to be async, and you’re going to be continuing to receive messages for the user while that async operation is in flight.
  220. Kev s/MAM query/query to the backing store for MAM/
  221. flow ahh, so the atomicity of the protocol operation is hard to implement on the server side, without getting a performance hit. but I assume it's trivial on the client end
  222. Kev It’s trivial on the client end in the sense that the client doesn’t have to implement atomicity.
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  224. flow I am not sure where the async part and "continuing to receive messages" comes from, though. can't you simply make it a synchronous operation?
  225. Kev I’ve come up with a relatively straightforward solution for a single node server, but haven’t got anything that works in a cluster yet.
  226. Kev Block the whole server until the db/fs result comes in?
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  228. flow clarify "whole server"
  229. flow you block the inbound elements of the client performing the operation
  230. flow maybe even
  231. Kev That isn’t what’s needed.
  232. flow isn't this operation part of bind2?
  233. ralphm Is it a problem if there's an overlap?
  234. Kev ralphm: It could be construed a problem if the overlap causes dupes.
  235. ralphm But the dupes can be detected?
  236. Kev Unless we tell clients they need to dedupe, which would be …unpleasant.
  237. Kev flow: Yes, I was pondering how to actually implement bind2 in a non-trivial server implementation :)
  238. ralphm Well, we don't have exactly once delivery semantics, so shouldn't clients already do so?
  239. ralphm Generally clients also have local message storage and those need to be compared to MAM results as well?
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  249. MattJ Kev: the client can't receive messages until the resource is bound, which is precisely why this should happen during binding
  250. MattJ Oh, but the user can, right
  251. Kev MattJ: Yes, that’s the point of Bind2, but that doesn’t make it easy to avoid the race on the server.
  252. Kev Yes, precisely.
  253. MattJ So after binding, reprocess any messages since the ID you gave the client?
  254. Kev What does ‘reprocess’ mean here?
  255. MattJ Pretend they just arrived, deliver them to the new client
  256. Kev By querying the archive, or by caching them in-memory in the server?
  257. MattJ That's up to you
  258. Kev Well, not really, because if you do it with an async operation (1), you get the same race again :)
  259. Kev But although I can solve this for the trivial case, I haven’t come up with a model that works for a multi-node server yet.
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  263. Holger Right, it just moves the problem from the client to the server node.
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  268. flow can't you even deliver them to the new client via the mam archive? not all messages are archived
  269. flow can you even deliver them to the new client via the mam archive? not all messages are archived
  270. flow so you have to do it by storing the messages in memory
  271. flow which probably means you need a defense mechanism in case the capacity exceeds a limit or a timeout happens
  272. flow or, erm, hmm, messages that are not archived are not relevant here…
  273. flow so you could do both, a in-memory cache and a mam query as fallback
  274. flow wait, the mam query races against new live messages, right?
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  282. Kev You’re starting to get the picture of how this is less straightforward than it sounds, aren’t you? :)
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  286. flow the sad thing is that I think I had that picture a while ago, but then lost it again
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  310. ralphm Holger: FWIW, moving complexity to the server is a good thing
  311. Holger I do agree with that.
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  314. Kev I agree with that to an extent. Implementation complexity I agree with. Pushing computational complexity onto the server adds up pretty fast.
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  325. MattJ Unrelated: does anyone recall which spec contains the MIX roster annotation stuff?
  326. MattJ Aha, XEP-0405
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  329. MattJ That's confusing
  330. MattJ Ok, so XEP-0405 is a candidate to replace or merge into PAM (XEP-0376)
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  456. arc Did it connect?
  457. arc Oh finally. !
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  460. arc Ralphm: you here?
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  463. Sam o/ if you meet today please consider approving or sending feedback to the initial fiscal host rules (and bear in mind that we can always change them later, we just need something on the website to make opencollective happy): https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/915
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  467. arc I just spent 4 hours setting up an alternative xmpp host along with updating all my SSL and let's encrypt pieces.. so I certainly hope we are meeting today!
  468. arc It appears that something in the let's encrypt API changed and that threw out all my Cron tasks for monthly cert updates.
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  470. arc MattJ, dwd: ?
  471. MattJ Here o/
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  473. MattJ Not looking hopeful :/
  474. arc No it's not.
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  477. dwd Here!
  478. dwd Sorry, had some networking issues.
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  480. dwd MattJ, arc ^^
  481. arc Join the club 😆
  482. MattJ Ooh
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  485. arc Well we are missing a chair
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  487. arc ralphm: is apparently away this week
  488. Zash Be the chair you wish to see
  489. arc I have two sick hens and just spent 4 hours trying to get lets encrypt to work again, so not it
  490. dwd Well, this is fun. I can see inbound messages on Gajim on my laptop but not reply, but if this works I can send but not receive on my phone.
  491. arc You are received!
  492. dwd Man that's weird.
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  495. dwd So, anyway. I've yet to review the fiscal policy, and in particular I don't know if it should be a XEP to give us the change process.
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  497. MattJ Only if I can append a cookie recipe
  498. dwd I do need to do a pass over the CoC in order to pick up comments.
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  501. dwd And yes, a cookie recipe, I'm totally up for that.
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  503. MattJ There is also another document for review: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/933
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  507. dwd Ah, I had not seen that.
  508. dwd On a quick skim, I'm mildly concerned by the notion of declaring an Experimental Procedural XEP to be, in effect, Active.
  509. MattJ :)
  510. dwd I understand why, but it has risks.
  511. MattJ The rationale is that the scope is just operators@, for the window of time until the CoC advances
  512. MattJ and it avoids a copy/paste into that document
  513. MattJ We've had more need of moderation this week, and I'd really like to get this document up
  514. MattJ I don't even know that it *needs* board approval, I'd happily host it on my personal domain and link people to it there while I'm the one moderating the MUC
  515. dwd Understood. I won't block it, and as I say I understand the desire to get something up ASAP.
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  517. dwd And indeed, I don't know that it needs Board approcal, but it certainly doesn't hurt. It's a well written document, I'd be happy for it to be on our site, and governing the operators@ channel.
  518. MattJ Yes, I'd obviously rather board approval and having it on xmpp.org - otoh if we don't approve it this week and further need arises, I would rather just merge it or host it elsewhere meanwhile
  519. dwd arc, You have an objection to just merging it now?
  520. dwd arc, Sorry, that sounded leading. I mean, do you have any objection?
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  524. arc I do not have any objections no
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  527. arc I think at this point the more eyes that are on it the better
  528. MattJ 👍
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  531. MattJ Obviously it's not set in stone... if people are in favour of the document in principle we can (and likely will) amend it down the road
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  540. dwd Right, we seem to have run out of steam. I'll get on with a CoC update tomorrow and hopefully move that along toward a Last Call.
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  542. arc Sounds good. +1 week?
  543. MattJ wfm
  544. dwd Sounds good to me.
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  546. moparisthebest since the meeting is over, relevant to earlier dwd + arc https://www.moparisthebest.com/images/xmpp-vs-matrix.jpg (I couldn't find original so I remade it from memory)
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  549. ben heh that's very accurate
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  640. edhelas moparisthebest :D
  641. edhelas moparisthebest time to put it on /r/xmpp
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  646. mdosch 😂
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  828. jubalh moparisthebest: :D
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  830. jubalh i will have to steal this for twitter
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  879. eevvoor emus, I made a pull request for the xmpp provider list.
  880. eevvoor Due to the blabber.im takedown in three days.
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  889. emus thx, I recoomend to let the emotions calm down a bit. Seem they change their minds quickly
  890. eevvoor :D
  891. eevvoor Not good for server admins to be emotional.
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  901. emus well, everyone is emotional, the responsibility is to get to know all of them that you know how to deal with it accordingly
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