XSF Discussion - 2021-07-01

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  270. Link Mauve jonas’, MattJ, we have prior art for a split between a standards track XEP which is “set in stone”, and its live informational sister XEP expected to evolve with changes in the world, in XEP-0300 and XEP-0414.
  271. Link Mauve Splitting XEP-0313 rules into that kind of document could be an idea.
  272. Link Mauve Or even into a registrar maybe?
  273. Link Mauve Although it seems we kind of stopped relying on those.
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  277. MattJ (I don't think that is a good thing)
  278. Link Mauve (Me neither.)
  279. jonas’ well actually we rely on registries
  280. jonas’ but we have noone taking care of them
  281. Link Mauve Oh btw thanks jonas’ for merging the accessibility PRs, the testing tool is happy now. :)
  282. jonas’ thanks for making them :)
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  286. Ge0rG I think we need a standards track XEP with versioning for MAM rules.
  287. Ge0rG Not opposed to having it inside 313
  288. MattJ You don't think it would be weird to have XEP-0313 referencing a bunch of experimental XEPs?
  289. MattJ while itself in Draft
  290. Zash Implementation details!
  291. Kev Not if it’s not a normative reference.
  292. Ge0rG MattJ: so you say it's okay to not have any rules at all, but having the rules in an experimental document is bad?
  293. Kev “Precise rules for determining which messages to archive for different environments may be specified in separate documents, e.g. XEP-XXXX"
  294. MattJ I was referring to: > Ge0rG> Not opposed to having it inside 313
  295. Ge0rG I think I tried to make the point from day 1, that it is weird to not have specific rules inside 313, especially given that those rules seem to be known by server developers anyway
  296. MattJ So 313 would be a Draft document referencing elements and namespaces defined in Experimental specs
  297. Kev Ge0rG: I think the rules change over time and ‘known by server developmers’ isn’t exactly true. It’s going to depend on deployment/environment which messages it makes sense to archive.
  298. MattJ I would be more comfortable with 313 describing how to query/manage an archive, and another document that defines the (currently unknown and unstable) rules for what servers should put into archives
  299. Kev So I think having a base 313 XEP that you’re not compliant with because your environment doesn’t match the included requirements seems unhelpful.
  300. Ge0rG I'm not sure there were any changes over the last three or so years.
  301. MattJ I think putting these rules into 313 now is only going to enshrine brokenness
  302. Kev > I would be more comfortable with 313 describing how to query/manage an archive, and another document that defines the (currently unknown and unstable) rules for what servers should put into archives This works for me (and is what I tried to suggest with my text above)
  303. Ge0rG Kev: We have the Carbons rules inside 0280, with a namespace
  304. Holger Kinda assumes what we put into archives won't affect how we query it.
  305. MattJ Ge0rG, there have been changes within the past 3 years for sure
  306. Ge0rG But this is not a hill to die on. I just want the rules written down and discussed
  307. Holger E.g. magic with references / chat markers / whatever.
  308. Ge0rG MattJ: regarding the archival rules?
  309. MattJ Holger, you can query it how you want, within the spec. Do you see a reason the spec would need to change based on what gets stored?
  310. MattJ Ge0rG, yes
  311. Link Mauve “13:00:51 Ge0rG> I'm not sure there were any changes over the last three or so years.”, Jingle MI comes to mind, as a recent change.
  312. MattJ Yes, that (and it's Experimental)
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  314. Zash EME, 333, JME
  315. Ge0rG Link Mauve: did that need specific rules, or did it add a store hint?
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  317. Zash Ge0rG, rule required
  318. Link Mauve Ge0rG, the examples don’t include a hint, so obviously no client will ever add one.
  319. Zash Weren't hints killed by a previous council?
  320. Ge0rG Zash: the XEP was.
  321. MattJ I'm pro hints - not necessarily the current version of the spec, but some protocol-level encoding of whether stuff should be archived
  322. Holger MattJ: Just wanted to note that this is the implicit assumption. Not that I'm assuming the opposite :-) I could imagine we'll end up with clients wanting to filter certain types of stanzas or whatever, but I guess that shouldn't be a show-stopper, if all else fails things can go into additional XEPs.
  323. MattJ As soon as it gets into "if you see a payload with this namespace, archive it" - that's not something I would like to see in 313
  324. Ge0rG Because hints belong into the respective original XEP that defines the hint semantics
  325. MattJ Holger, sure, that's why the filters are extensible
  326. MattJ so it shouldn't be a problem
  327. Holger The thing _I_ am more unhappy with is still how 0313 says "use 0059 but a bit differently".
  328. Ge0rG XFMP.
  329. Kev MattJ: An issue with hints is that I’ve seen in the wild clients issuing hints that tell you to store stupid things.
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  331. Ge0rG Kev: how is that an issue with hints and not with stupid clients?
  332. MattJ Luckily they are only hints ;)
  333. MattJ But yes
  334. Zash Another issue with hints is that the sending client may not know whether the querying client wants it
  335. Kev Ge0rG: It’s an issue with using hints as our mechanism for determining what should be stored, rather than server-side rules, or basing it on the types of stanzas.
  336. MattJ Zash, but neither does the server, necessarily
  337. Zash Nope
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  339. Holger If the "whether the querying client wants it" question is a real-world problem the solution is filters, no? (Though it becomes more complicated if this should also affect push notifications.)
  340. Kev We briefly discussed the idea at the last(?) summit of in im-ng encoding things so that normal/chat would be stored, and headlines not, and then we’d encode the type of message into protocols, or similar. That’s also fraught with issues, of course.
  341. Ge0rG Kev: yes
  342. Ge0rG But I think it would be a nice way to refine our routing semantics
  343. Holger Exact same problem just with different (nicer) syntax, no?
  344. Kev Holger: kinda, yes. Also kinda not :)
  345. Ge0rG MAM data should be sent in headline for example
  346. Holger Kev: I feel like that's always your answer, no matter what statement I make!
  347. Ge0rG Otherwise a MAM response might end up getting routed to a different client
  348. Kev I think there’s a difference between saying e.g. “Here are hints and you can add this one to store something in the archive”, with a client author deciding CSN really needs it, and “CSN notifications must be sent in headlines"
  349. Kev Holger: Well - yes and no ;)
  350. Holger :-)
  351. MattJ Well I don't see much difference between that and saying "CSN notifications must include the X hint"
  352. Kev MattJ: Maybe I’m being overly naive. But I think with hints being additive, you would continue to find clients wanting to add random hints in nonsensical places (as they do at the moment), whereas one might hope that clients would add the right type (although history does suggest otherwise!).
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  356. Ge0rG Kev: We can break incompliant clients in visible ways when forklifting to IM-NG
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  417. emus Kev, ralphm, MattJ, arc, dwd: I have a topic for the next board meeting: I would like to suggestion onboard Daniel Brötzmann (wurstsalat) for the CommTeam. He is member now, but has help for almost 1,5 years actively on the newsletter but also and the website. He further supported me on other tasks and has knowledge on HTTP/CSS stuff which is really great. I asked Seve and jcbrand already and they would be fine with this. Let me know your feedback ☺
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  420. emus Kev, ralphm, MattJ, arc, dwd: I have a topic for the next board meeting: I would like to suggestion onboard Daniel Brötzmann (wurstsalat) for the CommTeam. He is member now, but has already helped for almost 1,5 years actively on the newsletter but also and the website. He further supported me on other tasks and has knowledge on HTTP/CSS stuff which is really great. I asked Seve and jcbrand already and they would be fine with this. Let me know your feedback ☺
  421. Kev I’m not Board, I just talk a lot :)
  422. ralphm Haha
  423. emus Kev: sorry I always get confused between you and dwd
  424. Kev Poor dwd.
  425. emus tahts why I tagged both of you 😃✌
  426. emus > Kev escribió: > Poor dwd. nothing personal 😃
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  451. wurstsalat hi there! thanks for suggesting me, emus!
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  481. arc Board meeting time soon
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  484. Ge0rG I've read that as... > Beard meeting time soon
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  486. dwd What even is beard meat? Sounds revolting.
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  488. Ge0rG As long as nobody is eating yaks...
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  490. moparisthebest it's the snack you save for later
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  494. Ge0rG Snack the yak!
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  507. ralphm bangs gavel
  508. ralphm 0. Welcome
  509. ralphm Hi!
  510. dwd Ho!
  511. MattJ \o/
  512. ralphm Most welcome to all! What items do you bring?
  513. dwd See emus note above, and also update CoC.
  514. dwd Updated Coc, even.
  515. ralphm nods
  516. ralphm arc here?
  517. arc Yup
  518. ralphm full house!
  519. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  520. ralphm I don't know who's up today.
  521. arc I think it's your turn
  522. ralphm Splendid.
  523. ralphm 2. Daniel Brötzmann for CommTeam
  524. dwd Sounds good to me.
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  526. ralphm indeed. I motion we add wurstsalat to CommTeam
  527. MattJ +1
  528. ralphm +1
  529. dwd +1
  530. arc +1
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  532. ralphm Carries. Congrats all around!
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  534. ralphm 3. CoC update
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  536. dwd So... I updated the CoC, but actually now I think about it I'm not sure if I did the PR for the updates.
  537. jonas’ dwd, I merged something the other day
  538. dwd jonas’, Oh! So maybe I did?
  539. jonas’ I sure hope it was a PR for the updates d)
  540. jonas’ I sure hope it was a PR for the updates :)
  541. ralphm dwd: be so kind and check :-D
  542. jonas’ there’s also "[Standards] UPDATED: XEP-0458 (Community Code of Conduct)" from tuesday
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  546. jonas’ I should probably fwd that to members@ now that I think about it
  547. dwd So yes, I clearly did that and jonas’ did his Thing.
  548. dwd And I've received no comments at all. Either apathy of else I have addressed everyone's concerns.
  549. dwd So our options are either:
  550. dwd a) We prod people to see if I actually have answered their concerns, or
  551. dwd b) We Last Call to formally do the same.
  552. Zash A non-member sent comments here the other day.
  553. ralphm Yeah, per Appendix E the primary discussion venue is standards@, but I think it would be useful to also include members@, as suggested in the appendix.
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  556. dwd Zash, Here? Ah, I'll see if I can find them.
  557. Zash I think?
  558. Zash dwd: https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2021-06-28?p=h#2021-06-28-a3970c1480b7787b
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  561. dwd Oh, interesting. So there's a suggestion that the Conduct Team, which is appointed by the Board, would have the ability to fire a member of the Board. That'd need Bylaw changes, I think.
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  567. dwd Yeah, removal of one of us involuntarily requires a majority of the members. I see the point, but I don't really see an alternative.
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  569. dwd It is, incidentally, significantly easier to remove a Board member than an XSF Member.
  570. ralphm I don't think such a facility is needed. Firing a board member any which way will be a very public event. What would be gained from adding this control instead of having the Conduct Team calling a general meeting and persuing a vote to remove per 4.6 of our bylaws?
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  572. Ge0rG So there is no way to fire somebody without a huge theatre show?
  573. MattJ I think all the raised concerns were valid (Board members should not be immune from CoC enforcement, but also the Conduct Team should not have the power to remove people from Board at their leisure)
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  576. dwd Ge0rG, No... Would you *like* there to be?
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  578. Zash Make it so that the Conduct Team consists of enough members to call that meeting if they all agree? No Bylaw changes required!
  579. ralphm FWIW, Sam, our by-laws can be found from our home page: About XMPP -> The XSF -> Bylaws (in the side bar)
  580. dwd In any case, the root issue - what happens if one of the Board is the problem - is addressed, I think by having a Conduct Team and allowing people to report concerns to other Board members.
  581. dwd ralphm, Or by "xsf bylaws" in your favourite search engine.
  582. ralphm dwd: Sam did find it that way, but complained he couldn't from the site itself
  583. dwd Ah!
  584. Zash (I fixed that only a few months ago)
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  586. arc I feel this discussion is kind of gone a bit off rails
  587. dwd So anyway. The structure of the XSF as a corporate entity means the Board is accountable to the members as the body corpoate, and I think that's OK. If we have a problem where a member of the Board is being abusive to the point that removal is the only remedy, I think it'd be preferable to have the membership eject them.
  588. MattJ wfm
  589. dwd So with that, do we want to try for a Last Call, or do we want to see if any other comments are raised for a week or two?
  590. Kev > And I've received no comments at all. Either apathy of else I have addressed everyone's concerns. It’s in my inbox, but I’m tidying up before a week off, so not looked yet.
  591. Kev But given my first round of comments were fairly light, I don’t imagine my next round will be terrible.
  592. ralphm dwd: yes
  593. ralphm Kev: will two weeks be sufficient to reach the top of your todo list?
  594. Kev One can hope.
  595. ralphm Hope seldom is a useful strategy, but whatever works for you :D
  596. ralphm arc: anything other words on this?
  597. ralphm arc: any other words on this?
  598. arc No I'm just reading the conversation
  599. Ge0rG I have an AOB
  600. dwd One thing I did note in the updated CoC is that Board and XSF Members do have a higher trust placed upon them due to the difficulty of removing them. See last para of section3.
  601. ralphm Ge0rG: noted
  602. arc Mostly I just want to re inject at the primary reason for the CoC was manage non-members conduct in chat. And we should probably avoid having things that involve the removal of membership in it.
  603. arc CoC should be separate from the bylaws.
  604. ralphm dwd: indeed. Not sure how to highlight that during member elections, though.
  605. dwd arc, Well, the CoC applies to XSF Members and members of the Board equally. But it cannot add any further mechanisms for the removal of either.
  606. ralphm arc: so that seems to align with the opinion of the other directors, right?
  607. ralphm indeed, we don't have the power to even add such facilities ourselves
  608. ralphm i.e. this would require a proposal to the membership to change the bylaws
  609. dwd arc, Also, more "immediate motivation" than "primary reason".
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  612. arc Sure. Censure should be the most serious outcome of a CoC. If censure is followed by a removal of membership that can be a separate step covered by the bylaws
  613. arc And yeah it should obviously apply to board members equally
  614. dwd If not more so.
  615. ralphm I think the procedures for removing people from (just) board or membership are similar in the requirements.
  616. arc Exactly. So obviously having a board member censured because of abusive conduct is something we would take very seriously.
  617. ralphm Either by asking Chair to call for a special meeting, or by affirmative action
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  621. ralphm (note that removing from membership doesn't automatically remove from board, as board can have non-members)
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  625. ralphm It seems we are in agreement. Move on?
  626. dwd Yup.
  627. arc Sure. There was aob
  628. ralphm 4. AOB
  629. ralphm Ge0rG?
  630. Ge0rG In my position as the representative of the XSF to the German Government, I've received the messenger interoperability questionnaire (by snailmail), filled it out (the online version) with the help of emus and *IM* from freie-messenger.de and submitted it just on time last Monday. It was structured for typical centralized IM service providers, so some questions only made limited sense, like which platforms are covered and what amount of money we make from chat, video and groupchats, respectively. Others, like what benefits there would be for the market from messenger interop, made more sense and got better answers.
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  632. Ge0rG There was no response yet, I'll keep you updated when there is something new. Big thanks go to emus and *IM*.
  633. dwd Oh, that's great.
  634. MattJ Thanks for working on that! :)
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  636. ralphm Cool. Can you pass a copy to Board and/or our Secretary? Or more publicly to members if that's reasonable?
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  639. Ge0rG ralphm: well, it's a Microsoft Word form in German.
  640. ralphm it is a record of a thing
  641. dwd Ge0rG, Not sure which part of that is more of an interop problem.
  642. Ge0rG I'll see if I can get a PDF out of it.
  643. ralphm yay!
  644. Ge0rG That will solve all the interop problems.
  645. ralphm PDFs are only in English now?
  646. ralphm AOB?
  647. dwd Ge0rG, But yes, a copy would be really interesting. PDF/A, but Word is fine too TBH, I can make a PDF/A from it.
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  649. arc Honestly I think we are all pretty versed in Google translate
  650. ralphm arc: too bad it isn't pretty versed itself
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  653. Ge0rG arc: can you apply google translate to a PDF?
  654. ralphm probably
  655. arc Copy/paste at least
  656. ralphm if nothing else
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  658. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  659. ralphm +1W
  660. ralphm 6. Close
  661. ralphm Thanks all!
  662. ralphm bangs gavel
  663. arc Yay
  664. dwd arc, وتتوفر أنظمة ترجمة أخرى.
  665. ralphm Pizza time!
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  669. arc Yes certainly other translations systems are available
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  671. arc Completely off topic, does anyone have any idea and how to clean a chicken's face? I have been giving them hanging melon rings everyday for the last week because of the insanely hot temperatures we've had, but the sticky melon juice plus dirt..
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  675. emus 🎉 Official welcome Daniel! (wurstsalat) ✨ MattJ can you now provide the access now?
  676. emus arc: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But are they so allergic to water?
  677. emus Maybe spray them water in the air, they will like the cooling effect but the same way get clean
  678. dwd arc, A websearch for "How to clean chickens" suggests plucking them first, I'm guessing that's not what you're after...
  679. arc Yeah I was thinking of like a mister or something. Something light enough that they don't freak out or have the water get in their nostrils
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  681. moparisthebest arc: I've heard seeds floating in a bucket of water would keep them hydrated in heat, seems like it would clean them too
  682. arc That is not a terrible idea
  683. arc Always best to let them do the work themselves 🥰
  684. MattJ emus: already done as soon as the vote passed 🙂
  685. MattJ wurstsalat will need to accept the invite
  686. dwd arc, Also this: https://www.omlet.co.uk/guide/chickens/chicken_care/cleaning though it suggests you don't need to bother unless you're showing them.
  687. emus MattJ: cool
  688. Zash food in a wet hollowed out natural sponge? hmmmm
  689. Zash dunno if you have enough heat to also have water shortage
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  692. arc Baby shampoo is a good idea. Especially since it's around their eyes
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  695. arc And yeah chickens hate water more than cats do, but with the heat we've had here.. hit 47 degrees Monday, we had moments where I had to help them into the pool where they just passed out from heat exhaustion. Hence, the melons.
  696. arc You may have seen in the news about the heat wave that hit them so the Pacific Northwest. It was very real.
  697. wurstsalat emus, I have access now, thanks everybody!
  698. arc 30° is considered hot here.. 47° was simply record-breaking. And yet we have meteorologist saying that this might be the coolest summer for some time going forward, still.
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  710. Ge0rG arc: sorry to hear that
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  713. arc I always find it funny how people have been warned for decades about global warming who are then surprised when global warming happens after they do nothing about it
  714. Zash Isn't that how humans generally deal with things? Doing nothing until it's actually hurting not to do something about it. And then hoping wasn't too late decades ago.
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  716. arc 63 people in my city died earlier this week from the heat
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  723. arc Yeah, and we love to blame others for problems we all create. Like is a common American thought that China creates way more greenhouse gases than we do, and anything we do to reduce greenhouse gases will just give China an economic advantage
  724. Ge0rG Cool! We are blaming China as well. China and the US!
  725. BASSGOD has joined
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  727. Zash Blame Canada!
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  749. emus arc: Corona !!!1!
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  751. emus I think actually the next "pandamic" that does not go away in a life time is climate change
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  767. Ge0rG Do we have some more tribal knowledge regarding the RFC errata, beyond https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_and_RFC_Remarks/RFC_6120:_XMPP-Core
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  770. moparisthebest I'm picking up a pattern here, maybe we should just blame anything that starts with C
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  781. eevvoor I just realized that XEPs have a bibtex-entry at the end. Wonderful! Is there a bibtex file for all xeps somewhere, too?
  782. Ge0rG it's probably easy to create from the tooling
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  807. jonas’ Blame Conversations!
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  809. eevvoor Ge0rG, creating the bibtex you mean?
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  820. Ge0rG eevvoor: yeah
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  848. Zash That empty features thing is why Prosody will now hit you with a stream error instead, if there's no way to proceed with an unauthenticated connection.
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  850. Zash Since everything's plugin based, it can be misconfigured such that there's either no starttls or no sasl to offer, which would look like "you're done! go ahead" to some software.
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  866. emus Ge0rG ^
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  870. eevvoor Thus I conclude that there is not all-xeps-bibtex-file.
  871. eevvoor Thus I conclude that there is no all-xeps-bibtex-file.
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