XSF Discussion - 2021-07-01

  1. Link Mauve

    jonas’, MattJ, we have prior art for a split between a standards track XEP which is “set in stone”, and its live informational sister XEP expected to evolve with changes in the world, in XEP-0300 and XEP-0414.

  2. Link Mauve

    Splitting XEP-0313 rules into that kind of document could be an idea.

  3. Link Mauve

    Or even into a registrar maybe?

  4. Link Mauve

    Although it seems we kind of stopped relying on those.

  5. MattJ

    (I don't think that is a good thing)

  6. Link Mauve

    (Me neither.)

  7. jonas’

    well actually we rely on registries

  8. jonas’

    but we have noone taking care of them

  9. Link Mauve

    Oh btw thanks jonas’ for merging the accessibility PRs, the testing tool is happy now. :)

  10. jonas’

    thanks for making them :)

  11. Ge0rG

    I think we need a standards track XEP with versioning for MAM rules.

  12. Ge0rG

    Not opposed to having it inside 313

  13. MattJ

    You don't think it would be weird to have XEP-0313 referencing a bunch of experimental XEPs?

  14. MattJ

    while itself in Draft

  15. Zash

    Implementation details!

  16. Kev

    Not if it’s not a normative reference.

  17. Ge0rG

    MattJ: so you say it's okay to not have any rules at all, but having the rules in an experimental document is bad?

  18. Kev

    “Precise rules for determining which messages to archive for different environments may be specified in separate documents, e.g. XEP-XXXX"

  19. MattJ

    I was referring to: > Ge0rG> Not opposed to having it inside 313

  20. Ge0rG

    I think I tried to make the point from day 1, that it is weird to not have specific rules inside 313, especially given that those rules seem to be known by server developers anyway

  21. MattJ

    So 313 would be a Draft document referencing elements and namespaces defined in Experimental specs

  22. Kev

    Ge0rG: I think the rules change over time and ‘known by server developmers’ isn’t exactly true. It’s going to depend on deployment/environment which messages it makes sense to archive.

  23. MattJ

    I would be more comfortable with 313 describing how to query/manage an archive, and another document that defines the (currently unknown and unstable) rules for what servers should put into archives

  24. Kev

    So I think having a base 313 XEP that you’re not compliant with because your environment doesn’t match the included requirements seems unhelpful.

  25. Ge0rG

    I'm not sure there were any changes over the last three or so years.

  26. MattJ

    I think putting these rules into 313 now is only going to enshrine brokenness

  27. Kev

    > I would be more comfortable with 313 describing how to query/manage an archive, and another document that defines the (currently unknown and unstable) rules for what servers should put into archives This works for me (and is what I tried to suggest with my text above)

  28. Ge0rG

    Kev: We have the Carbons rules inside 0280, with a namespace

  29. Holger

    Kinda assumes what we put into archives won't affect how we query it.

  30. MattJ

    Ge0rG, there have been changes within the past 3 years for sure

  31. Ge0rG

    But this is not a hill to die on. I just want the rules written down and discussed

  32. Holger

    E.g. magic with references / chat markers / whatever.

  33. Ge0rG

    MattJ: regarding the archival rules?

  34. MattJ

    Holger, you can query it how you want, within the spec. Do you see a reason the spec would need to change based on what gets stored?

  35. MattJ

    Ge0rG, yes

  36. Link Mauve

    “13:00:51 Ge0rG> I'm not sure there were any changes over the last three or so years.”, Jingle MI comes to mind, as a recent change.

  37. MattJ

    Yes, that (and it's Experimental)

  38. Zash

    EME, 333, JME

  39. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: did that need specific rules, or did it add a store hint?

  40. Zash

    Ge0rG, rule required

  41. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, the examples don’t include a hint, so obviously no client will ever add one.

  42. Zash

    Weren't hints killed by a previous council?

  43. Ge0rG

    Zash: the XEP was.

  44. MattJ

    I'm pro hints - not necessarily the current version of the spec, but some protocol-level encoding of whether stuff should be archived

  45. Holger

    MattJ: Just wanted to note that this is the implicit assumption. Not that I'm assuming the opposite :-) I could imagine we'll end up with clients wanting to filter certain types of stanzas or whatever, but I guess that shouldn't be a show-stopper, if all else fails things can go into additional XEPs.

  46. MattJ

    As soon as it gets into "if you see a payload with this namespace, archive it" - that's not something I would like to see in 313

  47. Ge0rG

    Because hints belong into the respective original XEP that defines the hint semantics

  48. MattJ

    Holger, sure, that's why the filters are extensible

  49. MattJ

    so it shouldn't be a problem

  50. Holger

    The thing _I_ am more unhappy with is still how 0313 says "use 0059 but a bit differently".

  51. Ge0rG


  52. Kev

    MattJ: An issue with hints is that I’ve seen in the wild clients issuing hints that tell you to store stupid things.

  53. Ge0rG

    Kev: how is that an issue with hints and not with stupid clients?

  54. MattJ

    Luckily they are only hints ;)

  55. MattJ

    But yes

  56. Zash

    Another issue with hints is that the sending client may not know whether the querying client wants it

  57. Kev

    Ge0rG: It’s an issue with using hints as our mechanism for determining what should be stored, rather than server-side rules, or basing it on the types of stanzas.

  58. MattJ

    Zash, but neither does the server, necessarily

  59. Zash


  60. Holger

    If the "whether the querying client wants it" question is a real-world problem the solution is filters, no? (Though it becomes more complicated if this should also affect push notifications.)

  61. Kev

    We briefly discussed the idea at the last(?) summit of in im-ng encoding things so that normal/chat would be stored, and headlines not, and then we’d encode the type of message into protocols, or similar. That’s also fraught with issues, of course.

  62. Ge0rG

    Kev: yes

  63. Ge0rG

    But I think it would be a nice way to refine our routing semantics

  64. Holger

    Exact same problem just with different (nicer) syntax, no?

  65. Kev

    Holger: kinda, yes. Also kinda not :)

  66. Ge0rG

    MAM data should be sent in headline for example

  67. Holger

    Kev: I feel like that's always your answer, no matter what statement I make!

  68. Ge0rG

    Otherwise a MAM response might end up getting routed to a different client

  69. Kev

    I think there’s a difference between saying e.g. “Here are hints and you can add this one to store something in the archive”, with a client author deciding CSN really needs it, and “CSN notifications must be sent in headlines"

  70. Kev

    Holger: Well - yes and no ;)

  71. Holger


  72. MattJ

    Well I don't see much difference between that and saying "CSN notifications must include the X hint"

  73. Kev

    MattJ: Maybe I’m being overly naive. But I think with hints being additive, you would continue to find clients wanting to add random hints in nonsensical places (as they do at the moment), whereas one might hope that clients would add the right type (although history does suggest otherwise!).

  74. Ge0rG

    Kev: We can break incompliant clients in visible ways when forklifting to IM-NG

  75. emus

    Kev, ralphm, MattJ, arc, dwd: I have a topic for the next board meeting: I would like to suggestion onboard Daniel Brötzmann (wurstsalat) for the CommTeam. He is member now, but has help for almost 1,5 years actively on the newsletter but also and the website. He further supported me on other tasks and has knowledge on HTTP/CSS stuff which is really great. I asked Seve and jcbrand already and they would be fine with this. Let me know your feedback ☺

  76. emus

    Kev, ralphm, MattJ, arc, dwd: I have a topic for the next board meeting: I would like to suggestion onboard Daniel Brötzmann (wurstsalat) for the CommTeam. He is member now, but has already helped for almost 1,5 years actively on the newsletter but also and the website. He further supported me on other tasks and has knowledge on HTTP/CSS stuff which is really great. I asked Seve and jcbrand already and they would be fine with this. Let me know your feedback ☺

  77. Kev

    I’m not Board, I just talk a lot :)

  78. ralphm


  79. emus

    Kev: sorry I always get confused between you and dwd

  80. Kev

    Poor dwd.

  81. emus

    tahts why I tagged both of you 😃✌

  82. emus

    > Kev escribió: > Poor dwd. nothing personal 😃

  83. wurstsalat

    hi there! thanks for suggesting me, emus!

  84. arc

    Board meeting time soon

  85. Ge0rG

    I've read that as... > Beard meeting time soon

  86. dwd

    What even is beard meat? Sounds revolting.

  87. Ge0rG

    As long as nobody is eating yaks...

  88. moparisthebest

    it's the snack you save for later

  89. Ge0rG

    Snack the yak!

  90. ralphm bangs gavel

  91. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  92. ralphm


  93. dwd


  94. MattJ


  95. ralphm

    Most welcome to all! What items do you bring?

  96. dwd

    See emus note above, and also update CoC.

  97. dwd

    Updated Coc, even.

  98. ralphm nods

  99. ralphm

    arc here?

  100. arc


  101. ralphm

    full house!

  102. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  103. ralphm

    I don't know who's up today.

  104. arc

    I think it's your turn

  105. ralphm


  106. ralphm

    2. Daniel Brötzmann for CommTeam

  107. dwd

    Sounds good to me.

  108. ralphm

    indeed. I motion we add wurstsalat to CommTeam

  109. MattJ


  110. ralphm


  111. dwd


  112. arc


  113. ralphm

    Carries. Congrats all around!

  114. ralphm

    3. CoC update

  115. dwd

    So... I updated the CoC, but actually now I think about it I'm not sure if I did the PR for the updates.

  116. jonas’

    dwd, I merged something the other day

  117. dwd

    jonas’, Oh! So maybe I did?

  118. jonas’

    I sure hope it was a PR for the updates d)

  119. jonas’

    I sure hope it was a PR for the updates :)

  120. ralphm

    dwd: be so kind and check :-D

  121. jonas’

    there’s also "[Standards] UPDATED: XEP-0458 (Community Code of Conduct)" from tuesday

  122. jonas’

    I should probably fwd that to members@ now that I think about it

  123. dwd

    So yes, I clearly did that and jonas’ did his Thing.

  124. dwd

    And I've received no comments at all. Either apathy of else I have addressed everyone's concerns.

  125. dwd

    So our options are either:

  126. dwd

    a) We prod people to see if I actually have answered their concerns, or

  127. dwd

    b) We Last Call to formally do the same.

  128. Zash

    A non-member sent comments here the other day.

  129. ralphm

    Yeah, per Appendix E the primary discussion venue is standards@, but I think it would be useful to also include members@, as suggested in the appendix.

  130. dwd

    Zash, Here? Ah, I'll see if I can find them.

  131. Zash

    I think?

  132. Zash

    dwd: https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2021-06-28?p=h#2021-06-28-a3970c1480b7787b

  133. dwd

    Oh, interesting. So there's a suggestion that the Conduct Team, which is appointed by the Board, would have the ability to fire a member of the Board. That'd need Bylaw changes, I think.

  134. dwd

    Yeah, removal of one of us involuntarily requires a majority of the members. I see the point, but I don't really see an alternative.

  135. dwd

    It is, incidentally, significantly easier to remove a Board member than an XSF Member.

  136. ralphm

    I don't think such a facility is needed. Firing a board member any which way will be a very public event. What would be gained from adding this control instead of having the Conduct Team calling a general meeting and persuing a vote to remove per 4.6 of our bylaws?

  137. Ge0rG

    So there is no way to fire somebody without a huge theatre show?

  138. MattJ

    I think all the raised concerns were valid (Board members should not be immune from CoC enforcement, but also the Conduct Team should not have the power to remove people from Board at their leisure)

  139. dwd

    Ge0rG, No... Would you *like* there to be?

  140. Zash

    Make it so that the Conduct Team consists of enough members to call that meeting if they all agree? No Bylaw changes required!

  141. ralphm

    FWIW, Sam, our by-laws can be found from our home page: About XMPP -> The XSF -> Bylaws (in the side bar)

  142. dwd

    In any case, the root issue - what happens if one of the Board is the problem - is addressed, I think by having a Conduct Team and allowing people to report concerns to other Board members.

  143. dwd

    ralphm, Or by "xsf bylaws" in your favourite search engine.

  144. ralphm

    dwd: Sam did find it that way, but complained he couldn't from the site itself

  145. dwd


  146. Zash

    (I fixed that only a few months ago)

  147. arc

    I feel this discussion is kind of gone a bit off rails

  148. dwd

    So anyway. The structure of the XSF as a corporate entity means the Board is accountable to the members as the body corpoate, and I think that's OK. If we have a problem where a member of the Board is being abusive to the point that removal is the only remedy, I think it'd be preferable to have the membership eject them.

  149. MattJ


  150. dwd

    So with that, do we want to try for a Last Call, or do we want to see if any other comments are raised for a week or two?

  151. Kev

    > And I've received no comments at all. Either apathy of else I have addressed everyone's concerns. It’s in my inbox, but I’m tidying up before a week off, so not looked yet.

  152. Kev

    But given my first round of comments were fairly light, I don’t imagine my next round will be terrible.

  153. ralphm

    dwd: yes

  154. ralphm

    Kev: will two weeks be sufficient to reach the top of your todo list?

  155. Kev

    One can hope.

  156. ralphm

    Hope seldom is a useful strategy, but whatever works for you :D

  157. ralphm

    arc: anything other words on this?

  158. ralphm

    arc: any other words on this?

  159. arc

    No I'm just reading the conversation

  160. Ge0rG

    I have an AOB

  161. dwd

    One thing I did note in the updated CoC is that Board and XSF Members do have a higher trust placed upon them due to the difficulty of removing them. See last para of section3.

  162. ralphm

    Ge0rG: noted

  163. arc

    Mostly I just want to re inject at the primary reason for the CoC was manage non-members conduct in chat. And we should probably avoid having things that involve the removal of membership in it.

  164. arc

    CoC should be separate from the bylaws.

  165. ralphm

    dwd: indeed. Not sure how to highlight that during member elections, though.

  166. dwd

    arc, Well, the CoC applies to XSF Members and members of the Board equally. But it cannot add any further mechanisms for the removal of either.

  167. ralphm

    arc: so that seems to align with the opinion of the other directors, right?

  168. ralphm

    indeed, we don't have the power to even add such facilities ourselves

  169. ralphm

    i.e. this would require a proposal to the membership to change the bylaws

  170. dwd

    arc, Also, more "immediate motivation" than "primary reason".

  171. arc

    Sure. Censure should be the most serious outcome of a CoC. If censure is followed by a removal of membership that can be a separate step covered by the bylaws

  172. arc

    And yeah it should obviously apply to board members equally

  173. dwd

    If not more so.

  174. ralphm

    I think the procedures for removing people from (just) board or membership are similar in the requirements.

  175. arc

    Exactly. So obviously having a board member censured because of abusive conduct is something we would take very seriously.

  176. ralphm

    Either by asking Chair to call for a special meeting, or by affirmative action

  177. ralphm

    (note that removing from membership doesn't automatically remove from board, as board can have non-members)

  178. ralphm

    It seems we are in agreement. Move on?

  179. dwd


  180. arc

    Sure. There was aob

  181. ralphm

    4. AOB

  182. ralphm


  183. Ge0rG

    In my position as the representative of the XSF to the German Government, I've received the messenger interoperability questionnaire (by snailmail), filled it out (the online version) with the help of emus and *IM* from freie-messenger.de and submitted it just on time last Monday. It was structured for typical centralized IM service providers, so some questions only made limited sense, like which platforms are covered and what amount of money we make from chat, video and groupchats, respectively. Others, like what benefits there would be for the market from messenger interop, made more sense and got better answers.

  184. Ge0rG

    There was no response yet, I'll keep you updated when there is something new. Big thanks go to emus and *IM*.

  185. dwd

    Oh, that's great.

  186. MattJ

    Thanks for working on that! :)

  187. ralphm

    Cool. Can you pass a copy to Board and/or our Secretary? Or more publicly to members if that's reasonable?

  188. Ge0rG

    ralphm: well, it's a Microsoft Word form in German.

  189. ralphm

    it is a record of a thing

  190. dwd

    Ge0rG, Not sure which part of that is more of an interop problem.

  191. Ge0rG

    I'll see if I can get a PDF out of it.

  192. ralphm


  193. Ge0rG

    That will solve all the interop problems.

  194. ralphm

    PDFs are only in English now?

  195. ralphm


  196. dwd

    Ge0rG, But yes, a copy would be really interesting. PDF/A, but Word is fine too TBH, I can make a PDF/A from it.

  197. arc

    Honestly I think we are all pretty versed in Google translate

  198. ralphm

    arc: too bad it isn't pretty versed itself

  199. Ge0rG

    arc: can you apply google translate to a PDF?

  200. ralphm


  201. arc

    Copy/paste at least

  202. ralphm

    if nothing else

  203. ralphm

    5. Date of Next

  204. ralphm


  205. ralphm

    6. Close

  206. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  207. ralphm bangs gavel

  208. arc


  209. dwd

    arc, وتتوفر أنظمة ترجمة أخرى.

  210. ralphm

    Pizza time!

  211. arc

    Yes certainly other translations systems are available

  212. arc

    Completely off topic, does anyone have any idea and how to clean a chicken's face? I have been giving them hanging melon rings everyday for the last week because of the insanely hot temperatures we've had, but the sticky melon juice plus dirt..

  213. emus

    🎉 Official welcome Daniel! (wurstsalat) ✨ MattJ can you now provide the access now?

  214. emus

    arc: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But are they so allergic to water?

  215. emus

    Maybe spray them water in the air, they will like the cooling effect but the same way get clean

  216. dwd

    arc, A websearch for "How to clean chickens" suggests plucking them first, I'm guessing that's not what you're after...

  217. arc

    Yeah I was thinking of like a mister or something. Something light enough that they don't freak out or have the water get in their nostrils

  218. moparisthebest

    arc: I've heard seeds floating in a bucket of water would keep them hydrated in heat, seems like it would clean them too

  219. arc

    That is not a terrible idea

  220. arc

    Always best to let them do the work themselves 🥰

  221. MattJ

    emus: already done as soon as the vote passed 🙂

  222. MattJ

    wurstsalat will need to accept the invite

  223. dwd

    arc, Also this: https://www.omlet.co.uk/guide/chickens/chicken_care/cleaning though it suggests you don't need to bother unless you're showing them.

  224. emus

    MattJ: cool

  225. Zash

    food in a wet hollowed out natural sponge? hmmmm

  226. Zash

    dunno if you have enough heat to also have water shortage

  227. arc

    Baby shampoo is a good idea. Especially since it's around their eyes

  228. arc

    And yeah chickens hate water more than cats do, but with the heat we've had here.. hit 47 degrees Monday, we had moments where I had to help them into the pool where they just passed out from heat exhaustion. Hence, the melons.

  229. arc

    You may have seen in the news about the heat wave that hit them so the Pacific Northwest. It was very real.

  230. wurstsalat

    emus, I have access now, thanks everybody!

  231. arc

    30° is considered hot here.. 47° was simply record-breaking. And yet we have meteorologist saying that this might be the coolest summer for some time going forward, still.

  232. Ge0rG

    arc: sorry to hear that

  233. arc

    I always find it funny how people have been warned for decades about global warming who are then surprised when global warming happens after they do nothing about it

  234. Zash

    Isn't that how humans generally deal with things? Doing nothing until it's actually hurting not to do something about it. And then hoping wasn't too late decades ago.

  235. arc

    63 people in my city died earlier this week from the heat

  236. arc

    Yeah, and we love to blame others for problems we all create. Like is a common American thought that China creates way more greenhouse gases than we do, and anything we do to reduce greenhouse gases will just give China an economic advantage

  237. Ge0rG

    Cool! We are blaming China as well. China and the US!

  238. Zash

    Blame Canada!

  239. emus

    arc: Corona !!!1!

  240. emus

    I think actually the next "pandamic" that does not go away in a life time is climate change

  241. Ge0rG

    Do we have some more tribal knowledge regarding the RFC errata, beyond https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_and_RFC_Remarks/RFC_6120:_XMPP-Core

  242. moparisthebest

    I'm picking up a pattern here, maybe we should just blame anything that starts with C

  243. eevvoor

    I just realized that XEPs have a bibtex-entry at the end. Wonderful! Is there a bibtex file for all xeps somewhere, too?

  244. Ge0rG

    it's probably easy to create from the tooling

  245. jonas’

    Blame Conversations!

  246. eevvoor

    Ge0rG, creating the bibtex you mean?

  247. Ge0rG

    eevvoor: yeah

  248. Zash

    That empty features thing is why Prosody will now hit you with a stream error instead, if there's no way to proceed with an unauthenticated connection.

  249. Zash

    Since everything's plugin based, it can be misconfigured such that there's either no starttls or no sasl to offer, which would look like "you're done! go ahead" to some software.

  250. emus

    Ge0rG ^

  251. eevvoor

    Thus I conclude that there is not all-xeps-bibtex-file.

  252. eevvoor

    Thus I conclude that there is no all-xeps-bibtex-file.