-
Link Mauve
jonas’, MattJ, we have prior art for a split between a standards track XEP which is “set in stone”, and its live informational sister XEP expected to evolve with changes in the world, in XEP-0300 and XEP-0414.
-
Link Mauve
Splitting XEP-0313 rules into that kind of document could be an idea.
-
Link Mauve
Or even into a registrar maybe?
-
Link Mauve
Although it seems we kind of stopped relying on those.
-
MattJ
(I don't think that is a good thing)
-
Link Mauve
(Me neither.)
-
jonas’
well actually we rely on registries
-
jonas’
but we have noone taking care of them
-
Link Mauve
Oh btw thanks jonas’ for merging the accessibility PRs, the testing tool is happy now. :)
-
jonas’
thanks for making them :)
-
Ge0rG
I think we need a standards track XEP with versioning for MAM rules.
-
Ge0rG
Not opposed to having it inside 313
-
MattJ
You don't think it would be weird to have XEP-0313 referencing a bunch of experimental XEPs?
-
MattJ
while itself in Draft
-
Zash
Implementation details!
-
Kev
Not if it’s not a normative reference.
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: so you say it's okay to not have any rules at all, but having the rules in an experimental document is bad?
-
Kev
“Precise rules for determining which messages to archive for different environments may be specified in separate documents, e.g. XEP-XXXX"
-
MattJ
I was referring to: > Ge0rG> Not opposed to having it inside 313
-
Ge0rG
I think I tried to make the point from day 1, that it is weird to not have specific rules inside 313, especially given that those rules seem to be known by server developers anyway
-
MattJ
So 313 would be a Draft document referencing elements and namespaces defined in Experimental specs
-
Kev
Ge0rG: I think the rules change over time and ‘known by server developmers’ isn’t exactly true. It’s going to depend on deployment/environment which messages it makes sense to archive.
-
MattJ
I would be more comfortable with 313 describing how to query/manage an archive, and another document that defines the (currently unknown and unstable) rules for what servers should put into archives
-
Kev
So I think having a base 313 XEP that you’re not compliant with because your environment doesn’t match the included requirements seems unhelpful.
-
Ge0rG
I'm not sure there were any changes over the last three or so years.
-
MattJ
I think putting these rules into 313 now is only going to enshrine brokenness
-
Kev
> I would be more comfortable with 313 describing how to query/manage an archive, and another document that defines the (currently unknown and unstable) rules for what servers should put into archives This works for me (and is what I tried to suggest with my text above)
-
Ge0rG
Kev: We have the Carbons rules inside 0280, with a namespace
-
Holger
Kinda assumes what we put into archives won't affect how we query it.
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, there have been changes within the past 3 years for sure
-
Ge0rG
But this is not a hill to die on. I just want the rules written down and discussed
-
Holger
E.g. magic with references / chat markers / whatever.
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: regarding the archival rules?
-
MattJ
Holger, you can query it how you want, within the spec. Do you see a reason the spec would need to change based on what gets stored?
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, yes
-
Link Mauve
“13:00:51 Ge0rG> I'm not sure there were any changes over the last three or so years.”, Jingle MI comes to mind, as a recent change.
-
MattJ
Yes, that (and it's Experimental)
-
Zash
EME, 333, JME
-
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: did that need specific rules, or did it add a store hint?
-
Zash
Ge0rG, rule required
-
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, the examples don’t include a hint, so obviously no client will ever add one.
-
Zash
Weren't hints killed by a previous council?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: the XEP was.
-
MattJ
I'm pro hints - not necessarily the current version of the spec, but some protocol-level encoding of whether stuff should be archived
-
Holger
MattJ: Just wanted to note that this is the implicit assumption. Not that I'm assuming the opposite :-) I could imagine we'll end up with clients wanting to filter certain types of stanzas or whatever, but I guess that shouldn't be a show-stopper, if all else fails things can go into additional XEPs.
-
MattJ
As soon as it gets into "if you see a payload with this namespace, archive it" - that's not something I would like to see in 313
-
Ge0rG
Because hints belong into the respective original XEP that defines the hint semantics
-
MattJ
Holger, sure, that's why the filters are extensible
-
MattJ
so it shouldn't be a problem
-
Holger
The thing _I_ am more unhappy with is still how 0313 says "use 0059 but a bit differently".
-
Ge0rG
XFMP.
-
Kev
MattJ: An issue with hints is that I’ve seen in the wild clients issuing hints that tell you to store stupid things.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: how is that an issue with hints and not with stupid clients?
-
MattJ
Luckily they are only hints ;)
-
MattJ
But yes
-
Zash
Another issue with hints is that the sending client may not know whether the querying client wants it
-
Kev
Ge0rG: It’s an issue with using hints as our mechanism for determining what should be stored, rather than server-side rules, or basing it on the types of stanzas.
-
MattJ
Zash, but neither does the server, necessarily
-
Zash
Nope
-
Holger
If the "whether the querying client wants it" question is a real-world problem the solution is filters, no? (Though it becomes more complicated if this should also affect push notifications.)
-
Kev
We briefly discussed the idea at the last(?) summit of in im-ng encoding things so that normal/chat would be stored, and headlines not, and then we’d encode the type of message into protocols, or similar. That’s also fraught with issues, of course.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: yes
-
Ge0rG
But I think it would be a nice way to refine our routing semantics
-
Holger
Exact same problem just with different (nicer) syntax, no?
-
Kev
Holger: kinda, yes. Also kinda not :)
-
Ge0rG
MAM data should be sent in headline for example
-
Holger
Kev: I feel like that's always your answer, no matter what statement I make!
-
Ge0rG
Otherwise a MAM response might end up getting routed to a different client
-
Kev
I think there’s a difference between saying e.g. “Here are hints and you can add this one to store something in the archive”, with a client author deciding CSN really needs it, and “CSN notifications must be sent in headlines"
-
Kev
Holger: Well - yes and no ;)
-
Holger
:-)
-
MattJ
Well I don't see much difference between that and saying "CSN notifications must include the X hint"
-
Kev
MattJ: Maybe I’m being overly naive. But I think with hints being additive, you would continue to find clients wanting to add random hints in nonsensical places (as they do at the moment), whereas one might hope that clients would add the right type (although history does suggest otherwise!).
-
Ge0rG
Kev: We can break incompliant clients in visible ways when forklifting to IM-NG
-
emus
Kev, ralphm, MattJ, arc, dwd: I have a topic for the next board meeting: I would like to suggestion onboard Daniel Brötzmann (wurstsalat) for the CommTeam. He is member now, but has help for almost 1,5 years actively on the newsletter but also and the website. He further supported me on other tasks and has knowledge on HTTP/CSS stuff which is really great. I asked Seve and jcbrand already and they would be fine with this. Let me know your feedback ☺✎ -
emus
Kev, ralphm, MattJ, arc, dwd: I have a topic for the next board meeting: I would like to suggestion onboard Daniel Brötzmann (wurstsalat) for the CommTeam. He is member now, but has already helped for almost 1,5 years actively on the newsletter but also and the website. He further supported me on other tasks and has knowledge on HTTP/CSS stuff which is really great. I asked Seve and jcbrand already and they would be fine with this. Let me know your feedback ☺ ✏
-
Kev
I’m not Board, I just talk a lot :)
-
ralphm
Haha
-
emus
Kev: sorry I always get confused between you and dwd
-
Kev
Poor dwd.
-
emus
tahts why I tagged both of you 😃✌
-
emus
> Kev escribió: > Poor dwd. nothing personal 😃
-
wurstsalat
hi there! thanks for suggesting me, emus!
-
arc
Board meeting time soon
-
Ge0rG
I've read that as... > Beard meeting time soon
-
dwd
What even is beard meat? Sounds revolting.
-
Ge0rG
As long as nobody is eating yaks...
-
moparisthebest
it's the snack you save for later
-
Ge0rG
Snack the yak!
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
ralphm
0. Welcome
-
ralphm
Hi!
-
dwd
Ho!
-
MattJ
\o/
-
ralphm
Most welcome to all! What items do you bring?
-
dwd
See emus note above, and also update CoC.
-
dwd
Updated Coc, even.
- ralphm nods
-
ralphm
arc here?
-
arc
Yup
-
ralphm
full house!
-
ralphm
1. Minute taker
-
ralphm
I don't know who's up today.
-
arc
I think it's your turn
-
ralphm
Splendid.
-
ralphm
2. Daniel Brötzmann for CommTeam
-
dwd
Sounds good to me.
-
ralphm
indeed. I motion we add wurstsalat to CommTeam
-
MattJ
+1
-
ralphm
+1
-
dwd
+1
-
arc
+1
-
ralphm
Carries. Congrats all around!
-
ralphm
3. CoC update
-
dwd
So... I updated the CoC, but actually now I think about it I'm not sure if I did the PR for the updates.
-
jonas’
dwd, I merged something the other day
-
dwd
jonas’, Oh! So maybe I did?
-
jonas’
I sure hope it was a PR for the updates d)✎ -
jonas’
I sure hope it was a PR for the updates :) ✏
-
ralphm
dwd: be so kind and check :-D
-
jonas’
there’s also "[Standards] UPDATED: XEP-0458 (Community Code of Conduct)" from tuesday
-
jonas’
I should probably fwd that to members@ now that I think about it
-
dwd
So yes, I clearly did that and jonas’ did his Thing.
-
dwd
And I've received no comments at all. Either apathy of else I have addressed everyone's concerns.
-
dwd
So our options are either:
-
dwd
a) We prod people to see if I actually have answered their concerns, or
-
dwd
b) We Last Call to formally do the same.
-
Zash
A non-member sent comments here the other day.
-
ralphm
Yeah, per Appendix E the primary discussion venue is standards@, but I think it would be useful to also include members@, as suggested in the appendix.
-
dwd
Zash, Here? Ah, I'll see if I can find them.
-
Zash
I think?
-
Zash
dwd: https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2021-06-28?p=h#2021-06-28-a3970c1480b7787b
-
dwd
Oh, interesting. So there's a suggestion that the Conduct Team, which is appointed by the Board, would have the ability to fire a member of the Board. That'd need Bylaw changes, I think.
-
dwd
Yeah, removal of one of us involuntarily requires a majority of the members. I see the point, but I don't really see an alternative.
-
dwd
It is, incidentally, significantly easier to remove a Board member than an XSF Member.
-
ralphm
I don't think such a facility is needed. Firing a board member any which way will be a very public event. What would be gained from adding this control instead of having the Conduct Team calling a general meeting and persuing a vote to remove per 4.6 of our bylaws?
-
Ge0rG
So there is no way to fire somebody without a huge theatre show?
-
MattJ
I think all the raised concerns were valid (Board members should not be immune from CoC enforcement, but also the Conduct Team should not have the power to remove people from Board at their leisure)
-
dwd
Ge0rG, No... Would you *like* there to be?
-
Zash
Make it so that the Conduct Team consists of enough members to call that meeting if they all agree? No Bylaw changes required!
-
ralphm
FWIW, Sam, our by-laws can be found from our home page: About XMPP -> The XSF -> Bylaws (in the side bar)
-
dwd
In any case, the root issue - what happens if one of the Board is the problem - is addressed, I think by having a Conduct Team and allowing people to report concerns to other Board members.
-
dwd
ralphm, Or by "xsf bylaws" in your favourite search engine.
-
ralphm
dwd: Sam did find it that way, but complained he couldn't from the site itself
-
dwd
Ah!
-
Zash
(I fixed that only a few months ago)
-
arc
I feel this discussion is kind of gone a bit off rails
-
dwd
So anyway. The structure of the XSF as a corporate entity means the Board is accountable to the members as the body corpoate, and I think that's OK. If we have a problem where a member of the Board is being abusive to the point that removal is the only remedy, I think it'd be preferable to have the membership eject them.
-
MattJ
wfm
-
dwd
So with that, do we want to try for a Last Call, or do we want to see if any other comments are raised for a week or two?
-
Kev
> And I've received no comments at all. Either apathy of else I have addressed everyone's concerns. It’s in my inbox, but I’m tidying up before a week off, so not looked yet.
-
Kev
But given my first round of comments were fairly light, I don’t imagine my next round will be terrible.
-
ralphm
dwd: yes
-
ralphm
Kev: will two weeks be sufficient to reach the top of your todo list?
-
Kev
One can hope.
-
ralphm
Hope seldom is a useful strategy, but whatever works for you :D
-
ralphm
arc: anything other words on this?✎ -
ralphm
arc: any other words on this? ✏
-
arc
No I'm just reading the conversation
-
Ge0rG
I have an AOB
-
dwd
One thing I did note in the updated CoC is that Board and XSF Members do have a higher trust placed upon them due to the difficulty of removing them. See last para of section3.
-
ralphm
Ge0rG: noted
-
arc
Mostly I just want to re inject at the primary reason for the CoC was manage non-members conduct in chat. And we should probably avoid having things that involve the removal of membership in it.
-
arc
CoC should be separate from the bylaws.
-
ralphm
dwd: indeed. Not sure how to highlight that during member elections, though.
-
dwd
arc, Well, the CoC applies to XSF Members and members of the Board equally. But it cannot add any further mechanisms for the removal of either.
-
ralphm
arc: so that seems to align with the opinion of the other directors, right?
-
ralphm
indeed, we don't have the power to even add such facilities ourselves
-
ralphm
i.e. this would require a proposal to the membership to change the bylaws
-
dwd
arc, Also, more "immediate motivation" than "primary reason".
-
arc
Sure. Censure should be the most serious outcome of a CoC. If censure is followed by a removal of membership that can be a separate step covered by the bylaws
-
arc
And yeah it should obviously apply to board members equally
-
dwd
If not more so.
-
ralphm
I think the procedures for removing people from (just) board or membership are similar in the requirements.
-
arc
Exactly. So obviously having a board member censured because of abusive conduct is something we would take very seriously.
-
ralphm
Either by asking Chair to call for a special meeting, or by affirmative action
-
ralphm
(note that removing from membership doesn't automatically remove from board, as board can have non-members)
-
ralphm
It seems we are in agreement. Move on?
-
dwd
Yup.
-
arc
Sure. There was aob
-
ralphm
4. AOB
-
ralphm
Ge0rG?
-
Ge0rG
In my position as the representative of the XSF to the German Government, I've received the messenger interoperability questionnaire (by snailmail), filled it out (the online version) with the help of emus and *IM* from freie-messenger.de and submitted it just on time last Monday. It was structured for typical centralized IM service providers, so some questions only made limited sense, like which platforms are covered and what amount of money we make from chat, video and groupchats, respectively. Others, like what benefits there would be for the market from messenger interop, made more sense and got better answers.
-
Ge0rG
There was no response yet, I'll keep you updated when there is something new. Big thanks go to emus and *IM*.
-
dwd
Oh, that's great.
-
MattJ
Thanks for working on that! :)
-
ralphm
Cool. Can you pass a copy to Board and/or our Secretary? Or more publicly to members if that's reasonable?
-
Ge0rG
ralphm: well, it's a Microsoft Word form in German.
-
ralphm
it is a record of a thing
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Not sure which part of that is more of an interop problem.
-
Ge0rG
I'll see if I can get a PDF out of it.
-
ralphm
yay!
-
Ge0rG
That will solve all the interop problems.
-
ralphm
PDFs are only in English now?
-
ralphm
AOB?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, But yes, a copy would be really interesting. PDF/A, but Word is fine too TBH, I can make a PDF/A from it.
-
arc
Honestly I think we are all pretty versed in Google translate
-
ralphm
arc: too bad it isn't pretty versed itself
-
Ge0rG
arc: can you apply google translate to a PDF?
-
ralphm
probably
-
arc
Copy/paste at least
-
ralphm
if nothing else
-
ralphm
5. Date of Next
-
ralphm
+1W
-
ralphm
6. Close
-
ralphm
Thanks all!
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
arc
Yay
-
dwd
arc, وتتوفر أنظمة ترجمة أخرى.
-
ralphm
Pizza time!
-
arc
Yes certainly other translations systems are available
-
arc
Completely off topic, does anyone have any idea and how to clean a chicken's face? I have been giving them hanging melon rings everyday for the last week because of the insanely hot temperatures we've had, but the sticky melon juice plus dirt..
-
emus
🎉 Official welcome Daniel! (wurstsalat) ✨ MattJ can you now provide the access now?
-
emus
arc: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But are they so allergic to water?
-
emus
Maybe spray them water in the air, they will like the cooling effect but the same way get clean
-
dwd
arc, A websearch for "How to clean chickens" suggests plucking them first, I'm guessing that's not what you're after...
-
arc
Yeah I was thinking of like a mister or something. Something light enough that they don't freak out or have the water get in their nostrils
-
moparisthebest
arc: I've heard seeds floating in a bucket of water would keep them hydrated in heat, seems like it would clean them too
-
arc
That is not a terrible idea
-
arc
Always best to let them do the work themselves 🥰
-
MattJ
emus: already done as soon as the vote passed 🙂
-
MattJ
wurstsalat will need to accept the invite
-
dwd
arc, Also this: https://www.omlet.co.uk/guide/chickens/chicken_care/cleaning though it suggests you don't need to bother unless you're showing them.
-
emus
MattJ: cool
-
Zash
food in a wet hollowed out natural sponge? hmmmm
-
Zash
dunno if you have enough heat to also have water shortage
-
arc
Baby shampoo is a good idea. Especially since it's around their eyes
-
arc
And yeah chickens hate water more than cats do, but with the heat we've had here.. hit 47 degrees Monday, we had moments where I had to help them into the pool where they just passed out from heat exhaustion. Hence, the melons.
-
arc
You may have seen in the news about the heat wave that hit them so the Pacific Northwest. It was very real.
-
wurstsalat
emus, I have access now, thanks everybody!
-
arc
30° is considered hot here.. 47° was simply record-breaking. And yet we have meteorologist saying that this might be the coolest summer for some time going forward, still.
-
Ge0rG
arc: sorry to hear that
-
arc
I always find it funny how people have been warned for decades about global warming who are then surprised when global warming happens after they do nothing about it
-
Zash
Isn't that how humans generally deal with things? Doing nothing until it's actually hurting not to do something about it. And then hoping wasn't too late decades ago.
-
arc
63 people in my city died earlier this week from the heat
-
arc
Yeah, and we love to blame others for problems we all create. Like is a common American thought that China creates way more greenhouse gases than we do, and anything we do to reduce greenhouse gases will just give China an economic advantage
-
Ge0rG
Cool! We are blaming China as well. China and the US!
-
Zash
Blame Canada!
-
emus
arc: Corona !!!1!
-
emus
I think actually the next "pandamic" that does not go away in a life time is climate change
-
Ge0rG
Do we have some more tribal knowledge regarding the RFC errata, beyond https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_and_RFC_Remarks/RFC_6120:_XMPP-Core
-
moparisthebest
I'm picking up a pattern here, maybe we should just blame anything that starts with C
-
eevvoor
I just realized that XEPs have a bibtex-entry at the end. Wonderful! Is there a bibtex file for all xeps somewhere, too?
-
Ge0rG
it's probably easy to create from the tooling
-
jonas’
Blame Conversations!
-
eevvoor
Ge0rG, creating the bibtex you mean?
-
Ge0rG
eevvoor: yeah
-
Zash
That empty features thing is why Prosody will now hit you with a stream error instead, if there's no way to proceed with an unauthenticated connection.
-
Zash
Since everything's plugin based, it can be misconfigured such that there's either no starttls or no sasl to offer, which would look like "you're done! go ahead" to some software.
-
emus
Ge0rG ^
-
eevvoor
Thus I conclude that there is not all-xeps-bibtex-file.✎ -
eevvoor
Thus I conclude that there is no all-xeps-bibtex-file. ✏