XSF Discussion - 2021-07-06


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  380. ConcernedPerson Hey all. What are your thoughts on this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2069810) and this (https://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/)? [Genuinely Asking].
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  384. mathieui Do we really want to take time to address uninformed comments from 10 years ago?
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  387. mathieui I mean, that person does not offer any source or proof to any of their claims, it is "IM is simple, XMPP is bad, trust me"
  388. ConcernedPerson Point.
  389. ConcernedPerson What about article about XML?
  390. mathieui it’s not an article, it is a collection of citations from cat-v, which is the home of bad opinionated takes on the internet (right after hacker news, though)
  391. mathieui (and I do not even like XML myself)
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  393. Daniel As someone who has implemented both fairly complex xml based protocols and JSON protocols I can say that it doesn't matter. You are not going to hand craft either
  394. Daniel You are going to abstract them behind some serialization layer and never think about it again
  395. Holger Ah we should learn from IRC.
  396. Holger Wouldn't take much to cover everything XMPP does.
  397. Holger Yeah.
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  400. Holger And can easily be typed by a human on a telnet prompt. kk family, ditch this Conversations crap, got a new app for you, telnet.
  401. mathieui What Daniel said. Writing any kind of complex data structure by hand is not what you want, so the format imports little. XML has amenities for representing it, which can be a pretty deep rabbit hole, whereas with other formats you have to reinvent the wheel
  402. Daniel In fact I found jmap (JSON based) to be more irregular and needing more custom adapters /special conditions
  403. moparisthebest Typed maybe, parsed not so much
  404. mathieui Holger, though there is a point with which I agree with, that is getting a very minimal XMPP client up and running without a library is much harder than getting a very minimal IRC client
  405. moparisthebest XMPP has it's problems, XML isn't one of them
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  407. mathieui (but then why would you do that)
  408. Holger mathieui, absolutely 🙂
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  410. moparisthebest But your minimal XMPP client will be correct and handle edge cases, your minimal IRC client will not
  411. mathieui A friend started writing an OCaml XMPP library and it was a bit too much to take in when starting
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  414. ConcernedPerson Hmm. Could XMPP be re-written in JSON?
  415. Daniel But why?
  416. Daniel If you read any of the previous responses
  417. ConcernedPerson Daniel: +1 regarding jmap.
  418. ConcernedPerson s/JSON/LISP
  419. ConcernedPerson Specifically Scheme dialect of LISP. Very extensible and good use in XMPP.
  420. ConcernedPerson *would be good use
  421. Link Mauve ConcernedPerson, what are you missing wrt extensibility in XML?
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  424. ConcernedPerson Link Mauve: All these (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_(programming_language)#Distinguishing_features) and EDSL (Embedded Domain Specific Language).
  425. moparisthebest Why don't we just send bits of JavaScript for people to execute instead?
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  427. Link Mauve ConcernedPerson, I know Scheme, but which of these features are you missing in XML? You mentioned extensibility, that’s like the very first letter of XML.
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  429. moparisthebest Then anyone can make a client using electron in a few minutes
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  433. Zash Good idea, let's bring back the XMPP over HTTP JSONP polling method!
  434. Sam Okay, the fact that this person now wants to use sexpressions and a specific dialect of Lisp even though that's a language probably means they're trolling, but on the offchance that they're not the fact that we jump to "what feature is missing" is a good illustration of their point. Why would that be the problem? That's never the problem with XML extensibility, quite the opposite.
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  437. ConcernedPerson Link Mauve: Oh. I was thinking about Macros and embedded domain-specific languages, or EDSLs.
  438. deuill There's also a sense that people don't realize that JSON and XML aren't directly comparable, even in their simplest forms -- there's things you can express in XML that you cannot in JSON.
  439. ConcernedPerson Sam: Pardon me. I just got side tracked.
  440. deuill Simply because XML has an additional dimension in attributes that is not expressible as a tree.
  441. ConcernedPerson * side-tracked with languages.
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  665. moparisthebest jonas’: looking forward to your fat32 xmpp bot https://github.com/8051Enthusiast/regex2fat
  666. jonas’ I think I saw that one already
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  668. moparisthebest You can't unsee something like that
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