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Ellenor Malik
no southerntofu, only the server has closed
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mdosch
Why?
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mdosch
Afaik the client is still maintained.
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Ellenor Malik
> mdosch wrote: > Afaik the client is still maintained. yes
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Sam
arc: did your JID change? I'm getting DNS lookup errors on concordance.io
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Sam
I was just going to see if you're free sometime this week to collaborate on https://pad.disroot.org/p/XSF_Fiscal_Host_Rules
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Zash
Not just DNS, ~$ whois concordance.io NOT FOUND
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Sam
(also anyone else who wants to leave comments, please do)
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Zash
I expected 300+ pages of legalese. Pleasantly surprised.
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Sam
I'm sure the Open Collective stuff covers all that :) ours is just a policy about who can take donations and how they're used, so I don't think it needs much other than "board and treasurer decide"
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Guus
Status codes 170/171 of MUC (a privacy-related signal to indicate that 'public logging' has been enabled/disabled), does that apply to, say, MAM?
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Guus
if MAM is enabled in public room, I'm guessing that its archive is ... public?
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Guus
The XEP references to an HTTP-based exposure of the logging in a for-example - that makes me question the intent.
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Sam
That would be my interpretation. Whereas if fetching MAM is members-only or something I'd say it's not publicly logged
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Zash
Agree.
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Sam
Sorry, I mean "MAM counts if it's a public room" is also my interpretation
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Zash
If you can read the history without joining then very yes.
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Guus
so status 170 is basically "muc#roomconfig_enablelogging == true", unless "muc#roomconfig_membersonly == true" ?
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Zash
Do you include MAM in enablelogging?
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Guus
yes?
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Zash
Check.
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Guus
I'm only now noticing that muc#roomconfig_enablelogging has a label that describes _public_ logging.
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Guus
I had always interpreted it as any logging.
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Zash
I believe there's a `muc#roomconfig_enablearchiving` too somewere
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Zash
Possibly non-standard
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Zash
Ah, yeah, prosody uses that
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Guus
well... given that `muc#roomconfig_enablelogging` is defined as "public logging" ... it's pretty much equal to 170 vs 171?
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Zash
Definitely
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Zash
Hm
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Guus
so no point in even pulling memberonly status into play.
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Guus
which kind of makes it a duplicate? but one that needs not be queried, but is pushed to you when joining?
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Zash
Can you read the history without being a member/participant? Yes → 170. No → 171.
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Guus
As an aside: I dont' think 171 is pushed upon join (only when a config change happens)
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Zash
Whether that is done via MAM or HTTP, eh.
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Zash
Guus, according to the spec or in practice?
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Guus
I think i'm going to make it equal to the state of muc#roomconfig_enablelogging - as that's also defined as "public logging"
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Zash
But how is _that_ determined then?
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Guus
having that enabled, would always cause logs to be generated. Even if they're not public yet, they could be in the future.
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Guus
I'm ignoring the 'public' part of that definition.
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Guus
If logging, then 170.
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Zash
Is logging and archiving the same thing?
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Guus
(not saying that I'm thinking that this 100.0% fits the definition, but I think it's as close as any other definition, and definately easier to implement :P )
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Guus
In my book, yes. What do you consider to be different between the two?
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Guus
MAM vs the standard 'keep x messages' in pre-MAM things?
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Zash
Not entirely sure
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Guus
Ok, thanks. I'll tentatively take the easiest route, until someone convinces me otherwise :)
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flow
logging could just mean that the conversations are logged and potentially made public somehow. archiving is similar, but I somehow would expect that you can query the archive via XMPP, which I wouldn't say is a requirement for logging
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Holger
Guus, Zash, flow: There's clearly a difference for members-only rooms, no? (You said so initially but I'm not sure that distinction got lost with "I'm ignoring the 'public' thing?)✎ -
Holger
Guus, Zash, flow: There's clearly a difference for members-only rooms, no? (You said so initially but I'm not sure that distinction got lost with "I'm ignoring the 'public' thing"?) ✏
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Holger
Difference being that MAM access is guaranteed to be limited to group members, which isn't true for 'logging'.
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flow
Holger, probably, but can't construct a difference from the top of my head at the moment. Care to elaborate?
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Holger
These days I answer questions before they were asked!
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flow
Not that this does not sound sensible, but where is this guaranteed?
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Holger
0313 IIRC
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Holger
If I'm wrong it should be added 😉
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flow
hmm, but the archive could also be restricted to e.g. owners only, no?
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flow
but eventually I think we are on the same page
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Holger
> A MUC archive MUST check that the user requesting the archive has the right to enter it at the time of the query and only allow access if so.
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flow
at least when I hear "MUC logging" I think of web logs, and when I hear "MUC archiving" I think of MAM
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Zash
flow, same
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Zash
I still think the end result should matter, not the method. Can the general public access the logs/archive or not?
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Holger
But the MAM method gives a guaranteed answer to that question
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Holger
The 'logging' method doesn't.
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Holger
(For members-only rooms.)