XSF Discussion - 2021-07-17


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  10. Ellenor Malik no southerntofu, only the server has closed
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  144. mdosch Why?
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  146. mdosch Afaik the client is still maintained.
  147. Ellenor Malik > mdosch wrote: > Afaik the client is still maintained. yes
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  356. Sam arc: did your JID change? I'm getting DNS lookup errors on concordance.io
  357. Sam I was just going to see if you're free sometime this week to collaborate on https://pad.disroot.org/p/XSF_Fiscal_Host_Rules
  358. Zash Not just DNS, ~$ whois concordance.io NOT FOUND
  359. Sam (also anyone else who wants to leave comments, please do)
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  362. Zash I expected 300+ pages of legalese. Pleasantly surprised.
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  365. Sam I'm sure the Open Collective stuff covers all that :) ours is just a policy about who can take donations and how they're used, so I don't think it needs much other than "board and treasurer decide"
  366. Guus Status codes 170/171 of MUC (a privacy-related signal to indicate that 'public logging' has been enabled/disabled), does that apply to, say, MAM?
  367. Guus if MAM is enabled in public room, I'm guessing that its archive is ... public?
  368. Guus The XEP references to an HTTP-based exposure of the logging in a for-example - that makes me question the intent.
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  371. Sam That would be my interpretation. Whereas if fetching MAM is members-only or something I'd say it's not publicly logged
  372. Zash Agree.
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  374. Sam Sorry, I mean "MAM counts if it's a public room" is also my interpretation
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  377. Zash If you can read the history without joining then very yes.
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  380. Guus so status 170 is basically "muc#roomconfig_enablelogging == true", unless "muc#roomconfig_membersonly == true" ?
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  382. Zash Do you include MAM in enablelogging?
  383. Guus yes?
  384. Zash Check.
  385. Guus I'm only now noticing that muc#roomconfig_enablelogging has a label that describes _public_ logging.
  386. Guus I had always interpreted it as any logging.
  387. Zash I believe there's a `muc#roomconfig_enablearchiving` too somewere
  388. Zash Possibly non-standard
  389. Zash Ah, yeah, prosody uses that
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  392. Guus well... given that `muc#roomconfig_enablelogging` is defined as "public logging" ... it's pretty much equal to 170 vs 171?
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  394. Zash Definitely
  395. Zash Hm
  396. Guus so no point in even pulling memberonly status into play.
  397. Guus which kind of makes it a duplicate? but one that needs not be queried, but is pushed to you when joining?
  398. Zash Can you read the history without being a member/participant? Yes → 170. No → 171.
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  410. Guus As an aside: I dont' think 171 is pushed upon join (only when a config change happens)
  411. Zash Whether that is done via MAM or HTTP, eh.
  412. Zash Guus, according to the spec or in practice?
  413. Guus I think i'm going to make it equal to the state of muc#roomconfig_enablelogging - as that's also defined as "public logging"
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  415. Zash But how is _that_ determined then?
  416. Guus having that enabled, would always cause logs to be generated. Even if they're not public yet, they could be in the future.
  417. Guus I'm ignoring the 'public' part of that definition.
  418. Guus If logging, then 170.
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  420. Zash Is logging and archiving the same thing?
  421. Guus (not saying that I'm thinking that this 100.0% fits the definition, but I think it's as close as any other definition, and definately easier to implement :P )
  422. Guus In my book, yes. What do you consider to be different between the two?
  423. Guus MAM vs the standard 'keep x messages' in pre-MAM things?
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  425. Zash Not entirely sure
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  430. Guus Ok, thanks. I'll tentatively take the easiest route, until someone convinces me otherwise :)
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  561. flow logging could just mean that the conversations are logged and potentially made public somehow. archiving is similar, but I somehow would expect that you can query the archive via XMPP, which I wouldn't say is a requirement for logging
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  616. Holger Guus, Zash, flow: There's clearly a difference for members-only rooms, no? (You said so initially but I'm not sure that distinction got lost with "I'm ignoring the 'public' thing?)
  617. Holger Guus, Zash, flow: There's clearly a difference for members-only rooms, no? (You said so initially but I'm not sure that distinction got lost with "I'm ignoring the 'public' thing"?)
  618. Holger Difference being that MAM access is guaranteed to be limited to group members, which isn't true for 'logging'.
  619. flow Holger, probably, but can't construct a difference from the top of my head at the moment. Care to elaborate?
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  621. Holger These days I answer questions before they were asked!
  622. flow Not that this does not sound sensible, but where is this guaranteed?
  623. Holger 0313 IIRC
  624. Holger If I'm wrong it should be added 😉
  625. flow hmm, but the archive could also be restricted to e.g. owners only, no?
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  627. flow but eventually I think we are on the same page
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  629. Holger > A MUC archive MUST check that the user requesting the archive has the right to enter it at the time of the query and only allow access if so.
  630. flow at least when I hear "MUC logging" I think of web logs, and when I hear "MUC archiving" I think of MAM
  631. Zash flow, same
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  633. Zash I still think the end result should matter, not the method. Can the general public access the logs/archive or not?
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  635. Holger But the MAM method gives a guaranteed answer to that question
  636. Holger The 'logging' method doesn't.
  637. Holger (For members-only rooms.)
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