XSF Discussion - 2021-07-19

  1. wuuko

    https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo Is this warehouse one of ours?

  2. mathieui

    wuuko, what do you mean?

  3. wuuko

    > mathieui wrote: > wuuko, what do you mean? If we need to update, can we update it? If it's not one of the team, we can't.

  4. mathieui

    but what team are you talking about?

  5. mathieui

    and what kind of update

  6. wuuko

    > mathieui wrote: > but what team are you talking about? XMPP, xsf

  7. Daniel

    > https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo > Is this warehouse one of ours? Yes

  8. wuuko

    > Daniel wrote: > Yes Ha, okay.

  9. mathieui

    wuuko, there is no difference in terms of communication if the people are part of the XSF or not, except maybe the channels

  10. mathieui

    (it’s not like being part of the XSF grants the XSF team(s) or anyone else any more power over the repos)

  11. mathieui

    and as Syndace is in there, the question is already answered :p

  12. wuuko

    > mathieui wrote: > (it’s not like being part of the XSF grants the XSF team(s) or anyone else any more power over the repos) > and as Syndace is in there, the question is already answered :p Now that I'm ready to open a server, I don't want to have any questions left in my head.

  13. babacb

    Hi everyone. I am a iphone user but recently acquired a few androids for researching opensource. Im a user now on conversations and has my accounts linked on Siskin and Monal on ios also. I currently develop for Filemaker Go on ios and would like to know two things: 1. How do i get involved in assisting/developing xmpp messenging for android and ios. 2. I would like to integrate xmpp into my current filemaker apps, to kick off, what do I need know, where do i start?

  14. MattJ

    babacb, hi, welcome :)

  15. MattJ

    Probably the best way to help out is just like with any open-source project. Find one that you like, hang out in the community, identify some open issues you could help out with, etc.

  16. MattJ

    If you're interested in helping out with development of the XMPP protocol itself, here is a good place to be, as well as the standards@xmpp.org mailing list: https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists.html

  17. Menel

    babacb: As a user with an iPhone you are especially welcome helping the development and bugs of the xmpp iPhone apps, as there are much less people testing these IMO.

  18. Alex

    just a friendly reminder for those who have to reapply this quarter: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2021

  19. me9

    > Sam wrote: > I mean that they have their own implementations, not that they have their own encryption. Could that mean that some XMPP clients wouldnt' be able to exchange OMEMO-encrypted messages with each other because of client differences?

  20. Daniel

    That's a hypothetical possibility for every protocol extension

  21. me9

    Ok. But the well-known clients all work with each other, I guess?

  22. me9

    Ok. But the better known clients all work with each other, I guess?

  23. Daniel


  24. me9

    So they're all using the same protocol 'edition'? Or just fixing the issues?

  25. flow


  26. me9

    Ok, thanks.

  27. MattJ

    The point of XMPP being an open protocol is that we document how the clients should interact, so that they work with each other

  28. me9


  29. eta

    oh hey, the XMPP tunnel is open

  30. eta


  31. Zash

    Oh, nice

  32. Sam grumbles about how most of our homepage is a complete non sequitur that just takes up space and looks like a generic stock photo (probably because it is?)

  33. Zash

    eta, so they can change colors? camp out until the colors match the xmpp logo, replace the one on the website, ???, PROFIT^H^H^H^H ETTY

  34. emus

    babacb: Monal developers are really happy about Alpha and Beta testers with professional background. If you can develop for Apple devices I guess thats also welcome.

  35. vanitasvitae

    where is that tunnel, btw?

  36. eta

    King's Cross station in London

  37. emus

    ha nice - would love to see xmpp colors

  38. eta

    Zash: the issue is there are usually people

  39. eta

    and I think they close it during the night etc

  40. Zash

    As Sam points out, what the heck is the point of an empty corridor anyways?

  41. vanitasvitae

    I guess you probably could ask them to display the XMPP colors?

  42. Zash

    We could all go there and take a photo with us crowding about

  43. vanitasvitae


  44. emus


  45. Sam

    That would be kind of fun (and at least make it have some relevance, though I still think it just takes up too much room on the home page)

  46. emus

    Sam, but I think we have many other issues with the website, than this

  47. Zash

    I kinda liked this version: https://web.archive.org/web/20100713024339/http://xmpp.org/

  48. Sam

    I don't disagree

  49. Sam

    (with waht emus said)

  50. emus


  51. emus

    ouh Google was a sponsor?

  52. MattJ


  53. eta

    Google gave an office right next to one end of that tunnel, btw (LON-6PS)

  54. eta

    so that might be why that image was chosen?

  55. eta


  56. vanitasvitae

    What?? The website once told you about upcoming expirations of XEPs? :O

  57. emus

    I think it suits as an interlink, which communication and internet is kinda, right?

  58. emus

    vanitasvitae: Now we have it in the Newsletter, right? πŸ˜‰

  59. emus

    wurstsalat: ^ ?

  60. vanitasvitae

    Sure, but even that does not include expirations, right?

  61. vanitasvitae

    "only" updates πŸ˜›

  62. Zash

    Weren't there even an .ical with all the events?

  63. Zash


  64. emus

    vanitasvitae: Then we might have a new second at its best?

  65. vanitasvitae


  66. emus

    vanitasvitae: sorry, a new option

  67. emus


  68. emus

    not second

  69. Zash

    Is this really relevant to subscribers of the newsletter?

  70. vanitasvitae

    Probably not

  71. vanitasvitae

    I was just amazed by the detail of the old site :P

  72. vanitasvitae

    I wasnt seriously proposing to add it back

  73. dwd

    Apropos the webiste discussion, I would be more enthusiastic about the website discussions if there were people willing to make whatever changes are desired. The site we have took about a year of wrangling. I've no objection to changing it, but there's always been more interesting in changing it "from", rather than changing it "to".

  74. dwd

    As far as the XEP info goes, I'd be a lot more interested in something like the IETF's Datatracker. If we had that, then the Editor's life would be simpler, and it'd provide the data we need to drive lists of expiring XEPs (or last calls, or whatever).

  75. Sam

    I tend to agree with that, but also don't think we have the ops team to maintain something like that

  76. Zash

    IETF's mailing list browser is also very nice

  77. dwd

    I think it's somewhat wishful thinking that not having the ops team is the limiting factor.

  78. Sam

    Sure; I meant "even if we did have volunteers to build something like that"

  79. dwd

    Zash, As far as I know, the IETF's mailing list browser is an anonymous IMAP client; it might be relatively easy to find out what they've done and get copies of the codebase if it's not already open source.

  80. emus

    Zash, dwd: could you guys write that into at least an issue? 2 months ago I was trying to call for a task force in the mailing list. However, no one replied, what I can understand

  81. emus

    And I am really supportive on these improvements in general

  82. emus

    vanitasvitae: would it make sense to have is somewhere else?

  83. Zash

    dwd, is open source afaik

  84. dwd

    emus, "Supportive" is nice, but it doesn't get code written and maintained, sadly, which is really our fundamental problem I think.

  85. vanitasvitae

    Maybe, maybe not

  86. dwd

    Zash, Yes, although I have a feeling it's runnign against M-Box (M-Link's IMAP cousin). SHouldn't be a blocker though.

  87. emus

    Also a while ago I was putting the XEP site data into a samole dashboard. Maybe it would be interesting to combine these ideas Plotly Dash offers an opensource dashboard

  88. emus

    dwd: Yes, I know, just saying

  89. dwd

    emus, And I was just moaning. :-)

  90. dwd

    (I'm sitting on a train that's now reached England on "Freedom Day", and somewhat releaved to see most people are still wearing masks)

  91. emus

    I think it would be easier to organise work and get people into it if we point out and plan what work it would be. At least the maintenance work would be a great start. wurstsalat has some knowledge, but the does not want to build on the current system for example. And maybe this is another good point to discuss if we may should discuss if we pay someone for this work. I guess the situation is not getting better. But in general, making such a plan could be a think. Im.happy to support and do a lot, but still lack many knowledge here.

  92. emus

    maybe board can discuss if they see things where they can support. Maybe making this more public in the xsf

  93. dwd

    you mean the current website syste,?

  94. dwd

    you mean the current website system?

  95. dwd

    (Ugh, laptop keyboards are horrible)

  96. Zash


  97. emus

    dwd: I think so. Just take a look at the PRs and issues

  98. emus

    Zash: why what?

  99. Zash

    Why are all laptop keyboards so terrible?

  100. emus


  101. vanitasvitae

    Thinkpad keyboards are formidable

  102. dwd

    I mean, I'm not wholly sold on the website system, but I'm utterly unsold on another year where someone rewrites it to the systeme-du-jour and we end up back at square one again.

  103. Zash

    And why is Let's Encrypt having trouble? Is it time to panic? Is this the End Times?

  104. emus


  105. dwd

    No, all laptop kyeboards suck. I only use them on the train. Normally I've a nice wireless mechanical, but it's in my bag.

  106. vanitasvitae

    But then again I don't like mechanical keyboards so I might not have a say i .this discussion :P

  107. emus

    cmon guys, offtopic ☺

  108. vanitasvitae

    Topic is keyβ„’

  109. Sam

    dwd: which one? The only wireless mechanical I know of is terrible at wireless.

  110. dwd

    vanitasvitae, Ah, which mechanicals have you tried? I'm on a tactile G915 TKL, and the lack of click is lovely.

  111. emus

    dwd: Would be okay to support an evalutation pro / contra and I help up writing things up? Who was involved in doing the website?

  112. Zash

    Keyboards are very relevant to XMPP. Can't chat without one!

  113. dwd

    vanitasvitae, I don't like the clicky keys. But that's OK, because nor would anyone else for a 20 mile radius.

  114. vanitasvitae

    I'm not sure which ones I tried, but I'm just not used to the long travel anymore. It tires my fingers :D

  115. dwd

    emus, Lots of people who are no longer here. I think maybe ralphm was on the Board back then.

  116. Zash

    dwd, brown switches?

  117. dwd

    emus, Personally, I don't mind what system we use as long as we actually use it - if it's maintained, has useful info that we *and* casual visitors find useful.

  118. dwd

    Zash, In efcect, yes, but it's Logitech and they don't use Cherry.

  119. Zash

    I have a das keyboard with brown switches. Now I'm even more allergic to all my laptops.

  120. dwd

    Zash, Ah, nice.

  121. emus

    I agree. Im gonna write up something

  122. dwd

    Sam, Also, yes, it's wireless. Bluetooth and a low-latency USB-A dongle.

  123. Sam

    dwd: what's it called?

  124. emus


  125. dwd

    Sam, "Logitech G915 TKL". It was... not exactly cheap. But my fingers love me.

  126. dwd

    Sam, The main disadvantage is that it weighs slightly more than my car.

  127. Sam

    Thanks. I got an Anne Pro II (I think?) for travel and it's nice in terms of weight and size, but the bluetooth is bad enough to be worthless (drops keys constantly)

  128. dwd

    Maybe I should go all Diva and insist work buys me another if they want me to come into the office....

  129. dwd

    Sam, Previous wireless was a Bluetooth thing by Jellycomb, one of these bulk brands. Low profile keys but full-size, surprisingly good.

  130. emus leaves to do some XMPP work with his 10 yrs old simple low-budget logitech keyboard

  131. dwd

    Sam, And yeah, I'm really really set in my ways with keyboard layouts. Can't do 60%, and have to have a UK style return key.

  132. vanitasvitae

    I love my Thinkpad keyboard so much that I bought a Thinkpad desktop keyboard because I couldnt get used to my old one anymore :D

  133. Daniel

    The Venn diagram of 88 keys, wireless and blue switches is extremely small

  134. dwd

    Likewise the Venn diagram of Brown/UK layout/full-size/TKL.

  135. ralphm

    emus, dwd: the website was mostly Adam for content and Simon for tech.

  136. dwd

    And I'll be passing very close to that tunnel shortly.

  137. dwd

    (Currently just pulled into Reading)

  138. dwd

    Maybe I should take the longer route on the tube and take a selfie in the tunnel?

  139. ralphm

    As for keyboards, I am rocking a Logitech K810. One of the best they ever made, and until they do a MX Keys tenkeyless, I am sticking with it.

  140. emus

    ralphm: Thanks, but there is no contact available to these persons anymore?

  141. emus

    at least for questions?

  142. ralphm

    Sure, but why? I don't read the whole discussion.

  143. ralphm


  144. dwd

    Not impressed by the MX Keys at all. Tempted by the MX Master mouse, but figures I'd go the Logitech G route for that too, and been very happy.

  145. dwd

    My desktop uses a wired Roccat Isku and Tyon; lovely but both showing their age and the Isku isn't close to the G915, except for the programmable thumb buttons.

  146. ralphm

    Not sure about the rise, indeed. The K810 is nice and flat, and I got a great sheath for it from sfbags. Really don't understand why they discontinued it. I only read praise about its quality and sadness on it being discontinued.

  147. ralphm

    Maybe it is too good

  148. emus

    ralphm: If I create a list and collection actions we might can raise questions for their opinion and break down efforts, system-evaluation

  149. ralphm

    Nah. Just do what you deem appropriate.

  150. ralphm

    We don't need design by committee, just people putting in the work

  151. ralphm

    And both of them have moved on

  152. ralphm

    dwd: ohh, I didn't realize there's a tenkeyless version of the G915. That's interesting

  153. dwd

    ralphm, Yes, and it - unlike it's companion mouse - does do Bluetooth. Not that I've ever tried it; perhaps I should.

  154. dwd packs away the laptop before Paddington - catch you all later.

  155. ralphm

    Right. Whatever next keyboard MUST have Bluetooth. I am ok with it also supporting some proprietary RF

  156. moparisthebest

    This was my first mechanical keyboard https://www.moparisthebest.com/images/keyboard.jpg

  157. ralphm

    The biggest issue is getting US ANSI layout in Europe.

  158. moparisthebest

    I still use the same layout (which I call Unix programmer's Dvorak) but on an IBM Model M which I'm convinced is the best keyboard ever made

  159. moparisthebest

    Unless you work around other people, in which case it's just rude

  160. ralphm


  161. Zash

    I used a keyboard with blue switches for a while. Then it mysteriously disappeared.

  162. Zash

    It was very nice to type on tho

  163. moparisthebest

    Blues are my second favorite after buckling springs

  164. qy

    Anyone got the OTR xep to hand?

  165. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0378.html ?

  166. Sam

    There's not really an OTR XEP. It's a third party thing that's chat-system agnostic.

  167. Sam

    The one Zash linked and https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0364.html contain a tiny bit of XMPP specific stuff describing it, but really you probably just don't want to use OTR these days.

  168. Zash

    Oh, it was the expanded name

  169. Zash

    I just ^F OTR

  170. Zash

    And then there's OTRv4, which will if I understand correctly, have all the requirements of OMEMO, but none of the benefits.

  171. Zash

    As in, no multi-device support.

  172. emus

    qy - why OTR?

  173. qy

    Oh, hmm

  174. qy

    Was just thinking since im being so slow at implementing omemo i could knock out otr or pgp in the mean time to theres at least *something*

  175. qy

    Was just thinking since im being so slow at implementing omemo i could knock out otr or pgp in the mean time so theres at least *something*

  176. moparisthebest

    Pgp is easy, at least xep-27

  177. qy

    Then i can drop blabber maybe

  178. qy

    For all intents and purposes

  179. qy


  180. qy

    How do clients do with pgp?

  181. qy

    And with switching from pgp to omemo and back?

  182. ben

    i wouldn't bother with anything but omemo

  183. ben

    i've never seen pgp or otr in the wild

  184. qy

    But as a stopgap, cause i cant reliably use my client for PMs until i do

  185. qy

    But most clients implement pgp right

  186. qy

    So i could use that for the few folk i talk to

  187. ben

    i can't think of any that do pgp

  188. ben

    unless gajim does? i've never set it up if so

  189. Sam

    I think gajim does or used to? That's the only one I know of.

  190. Sam

    Definitely not "most" or even "many" though.

  191. qy

    Gajim does, think dino does? Conv and forks do

  192. qy

    Thats basically all i care about

  193. ben

    pretty sure dino doesn't

  194. ben

    and i didn't know that conv did

  195. Sam

    Conversations doesn't, it used to IIRC but not for a long time

  196. Zash

    Doesn't what?

  197. Sam

    Implement PGP

  198. Zash


  199. Zash

    from Dino ↑

  200. Sam

    oh nevermind, apparently it still does, ignore me.

  201. qy

    Yeah, thou,ht so

  202. qy

    So literally all the clients that matter do, so i could do it

  203. Zash

    I've been considering deprecating my GPG/PGP key, ever since I tried to set up per-device subkeys.

  204. ben

    pgp is such a hot mess ui/ux -wise

  205. Sam

    That's a big step down from "most" (but still, fair enough, more than I expected)

  206. Zash

    Meta: Sure would be nice to have more DOAP so we could answer questions like this

  207. qy

    Idk i think i know a grand total of 2 other clients that i actually know people regularly use

  208. qy

    So yeah thats "most" for my PoV at least

  209. Sam

    huh, Profanity does too, guess I'm just wrong and it actually is wide spread and no one is talking about it

  210. Sam

    And Mcabber, apparently.

  211. Zash

    Year of the OX? :)

  212. qy

    Sam: Ready your keys ;)

  213. Sam

    nope, never again, PGP is hot garbage

  214. Zash

    Sam, you're thinking of GPG

  215. Sam

    *nods* fair.

  216. qy

    Tbf to use it with conversations you need that extra app, and a key on your android

  217. Sam

    Basically everything GNU touches turns into a usability nightmare, so maybe I should use other implementations first before saying that

  218. ben

    i've heard good things about sequoia?

  219. Zash

    OpenPGP - the specifications and stuff could probably be salvaged

  220. qy

    > Zash wrote: > I've been considering deprecating my GPG/PGP key, ever since I tried to set up per-device subkeys. How did this go bad?

  221. Sam

    Heh, I missed that. I think that's the point at which I decided I din't care to use it anymore too.

  222. Zash

    qy: GPG encrypts to the most recent subkey. *Only* that key. Thus I must find that machine to read anything encrypted. (Which is less than one email per year.)

  223. qy


  224. qy

    This looks neat

  225. qy

    > ben wrote: > i've heard good things about sequoia?

  226. Zash

    Usually this is the laptop with the broken keyboard, that I don't use as much because of the broken keyboard.

  227. Zash

    (Laptop keyboards! Aaaaargh)

  228. ben

    looks like conversations needs openkeychain to also be installed for pgp

  229. Zash

    Oh and now when the keyserver network is basically defunct and gone ... how are you going to get my new subkeys?

  230. ben

    i've gotten like 3 pgp-encrypted mails ever

  231. Zash

    ben, with 2/3 sent during a keyparty?

  232. ben

    i mean yeah

  233. qy

    > ben wrote: > looks like conversations needs openkeychain to also be installed for pgp > I wrote: > Tbf to use it with conversations you need that extra app, and a key on your android

  234. Zash

    I do use it for signing software releases tho

  235. ben

    too much hassle

  236. ben

    i don't want to bother getting my yubikey out and finding an OTG adapter

  237. ben

    yeah i use it for gpg-agent --ssh and signing git commits

  238. ben

    not for mail or chat though

  239. Holger

    > Whatever next keyboard MUST have Bluetooth. https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/filco-convertible-2-tenkeyless-tactile-action-usa-ascii-keyboards.asp

  240. qy

    The problem with trying to replace gpg with sq i guess would be the number of things that hardcode gpg

  241. qy

    And looks like they dont share a keyring?

  242. ben

    i wouldn't bother with pgp at all but it's your client :P

  243. qy

    I dunno. Im just looking for ways to be lazy

  244. Holger

    Personally I love it, but of course, existing UX is unusable for non-geeks.

  245. qy

    Gpg? Or xmpp-pgp

  246. Holger

    XMPP-PGP. Gives me E2EE with history access on new devices.

  247. wgreenhouse

    > Oh and now when the keyserver network is basically defunct and gone ... how are you going to get my new subkeys? tofu, just like omemo

  248. wgreenhouse

    > XMPP-PGP. Gives me E2EE with history access on new devices. exactly, different users land differently on the history access/forward secrecy tradeoff

  249. qy


  250. qy

    Yeesh. Ripping my key out of openkeychain was not fun

  251. qy

    Note to self, next time do it the other direction

  252. wgreenhouse

    qy: termux has a thing to use openkeychain as a gpg agent

  253. wgreenhouse

    I haven't gotten it to work for my usecases, but it exists

  254. wgreenhouse


  255. qy