XSF Discussion - 2021-07-19


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  715. wuuko https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo Is this warehouse one of ours?
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  717. mathieui wuuko, what do you mean?
  718. wuuko > mathieui wrote: > wuuko, what do you mean? If we need to update, can we update it? If it's not one of the team, we can't.
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  720. mathieui but what team are you talking about?
  721. mathieui and what kind of update
  722. wuuko > mathieui wrote: > but what team are you talking about? XMPP, xsf
  723. Daniel > https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo > Is this warehouse one of ours? Yes
  724. wuuko > Daniel wrote: > Yes Ha, okay.
  725. mathieui wuuko, there is no difference in terms of communication if the people are part of the XSF or not, except maybe the channels
  726. mathieui (it’s not like being part of the XSF grants the XSF team(s) or anyone else any more power over the repos)
  727. mathieui and as Syndace is in there, the question is already answered :p
  728. wuuko > mathieui wrote: > (it’s not like being part of the XSF grants the XSF team(s) or anyone else any more power over the repos) > and as Syndace is in there, the question is already answered :p Now that I'm ready to open a server, I don't want to have any questions left in my head.
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  876. babacb Hi everyone. I am a iphone user but recently acquired a few androids for researching opensource. Im a user now on conversations and has my accounts linked on Siskin and Monal on ios also. I currently develop for Filemaker Go on ios and would like to know two things: 1. How do i get involved in assisting/developing xmpp messenging for android and ios. 2. I would like to integrate xmpp into my current filemaker apps, to kick off, what do I need know, where do i start?
  877. MattJ babacb, hi, welcome :)
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  879. MattJ Probably the best way to help out is just like with any open-source project. Find one that you like, hang out in the community, identify some open issues you could help out with, etc.
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  881. MattJ If you're interested in helping out with development of the XMPP protocol itself, here is a good place to be, as well as the standards@xmpp.org mailing list: https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists.html
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  919. Menel babacb: As a user with an iPhone you are especially welcome helping the development and bugs of the xmpp iPhone apps, as there are much less people testing these IMO.
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  954. Alex just a friendly reminder for those who have to reapply this quarter: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2021
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  970. me9 > Sam wrote: > I mean that they have their own implementations, not that they have their own encryption. Could that mean that some XMPP clients wouldnt' be able to exchange OMEMO-encrypted messages with each other because of client differences?
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  980. Daniel That's a hypothetical possibility for every protocol extension
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  988. me9 Ok. But the well-known clients all work with each other, I guess?
  989. me9 Ok. But the better known clients all work with each other, I guess?
  990. Daniel Yes
  991. me9 So they're all using the same protocol 'edition'? Or just fixing the issues?
  992. flow both
  993. me9 Ok, thanks.
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  1018. MattJ The point of XMPP being an open protocol is that we document how the clients should interact, so that they work with each other
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  1020. me9 Great.
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  1043. eta oh hey, the XMPP tunnel is open
  1044. eta https://eta.st/xmpp/file_share/641fc779-2ee3-485b-a2cf-1b9824bad83b/FS5XojnfSHuriFiA5fDPaw.jpg
  1045. Zash Oh, nice
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  1047. Sam grumbles about how most of our homepage is a complete non sequitur that just takes up space and looks like a generic stock photo (probably because it is?)
  1048. BASSGOD has left
  1049. Zash eta, so they can change colors? camp out until the colors match the xmpp logo, replace the one on the website, ???, PROFIT^H^H^H^H ETTY
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  1051. emus babacb: Monal developers are really happy about Alpha and Beta testers with professional background. If you can develop for Apple devices I guess thats also welcome.
  1052. mukt2 has joined
  1053. vanitasvitae where is that tunnel, btw?
  1054. eta King's Cross station in London
  1055. emus ha nice - would love to see xmpp colors
  1056. eta Zash: the issue is there are usually people
  1057. eta and I think they close it during the night etc
  1058. Zash As Sam points out, what the heck is the point of an empty corridor anyways?
  1059. vanitasvitae I guess you probably could ask them to display the XMPP colors?
  1060. Zash We could all go there and take a photo with us crowding about
  1061. vanitasvitae 😀
  1062. emus 👍️
  1063. Sam That would be kind of fun (and at least make it have some relevance, though I still think it just takes up too much room on the home page)
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  1066. emus Sam, but I think we have many other issues with the website, than this
  1067. Zash I kinda liked this version: https://web.archive.org/web/20100713024339/http://xmpp.org/
  1068. Sam I don't disagree
  1069. BASSGOD has joined
  1070. Sam (with waht emus said)
  1071. emus interesting
  1072. emus ouh Google was a sponsor?
  1073. MattJ Yes
  1074. eta Google gave an office right next to one end of that tunnel, btw (LON-6PS)
  1075. eta so that might be why that image was chosen?
  1076. eta have*
  1077. vanitasvitae What?? The website once told you about upcoming expirations of XEPs? :O
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  1080. emus I think it suits as an interlink, which communication and internet is kinda, right?
  1081. emus vanitasvitae: Now we have it in the Newsletter, right? 😉
  1082. emus wurstsalat: ^ ?
  1083. vanitasvitae Sure, but even that does not include expirations, right?
  1084. vanitasvitae "only" updates 😛
  1085. Zash Weren't there even an .ical with all the events?
  1086. Zash Automated
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  1088. emus vanitasvitae: Then we might have a new second at its best?
  1089. mukt2 has left
  1090. vanitasvitae ?
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  1102. emus vanitasvitae: sorry, a new option
  1103. emus section
  1104. emus not second
  1105. Zash Is this really relevant to subscribers of the newsletter?
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  1114. vanitasvitae Probably not
  1115. vanitasvitae I was just amazed by the detail of the old site :P
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  1117. vanitasvitae I wasnt seriously proposing to add it back
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  1120. dwd Apropos the webiste discussion, I would be more enthusiastic about the website discussions if there were people willing to make whatever changes are desired. The site we have took about a year of wrangling. I've no objection to changing it, but there's always been more interesting in changing it "from", rather than changing it "to".
  1121. andrey.g has left
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  1123. dwd As far as the XEP info goes, I'd be a lot more interested in something like the IETF's Datatracker. If we had that, then the Editor's life would be simpler, and it'd provide the data we need to drive lists of expiring XEPs (or last calls, or whatever).
  1124. Sam I tend to agree with that, but also don't think we have the ops team to maintain something like that
  1125. Zash IETF's mailing list browser is also very nice
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  1127. dwd I think it's somewhat wishful thinking that not having the ops team is the limiting factor.
  1128. Sam Sure; I meant "even if we did have volunteers to build something like that"
  1129. dwd Zash, As far as I know, the IETF's mailing list browser is an anonymous IMAP client; it might be relatively easy to find out what they've done and get copies of the codebase if it's not already open source.
  1130. emus Zash, dwd: could you guys write that into at least an issue? 2 months ago I was trying to call for a task force in the mailing list. However, no one replied, what I can understand
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  1133. emus And I am really supportive on these improvements in general
  1134. emus vanitasvitae: would it make sense to have is somewhere else?
  1135. Zash dwd, is open source afaik
  1136. dwd emus, "Supportive" is nice, but it doesn't get code written and maintained, sadly, which is really our fundamental problem I think.
  1137. vanitasvitae Maybe, maybe not
  1138. dwd Zash, Yes, although I have a feeling it's runnign against M-Box (M-Link's IMAP cousin). SHouldn't be a blocker though.
  1139. emus Also a while ago I was putting the XEP site data into a samole dashboard. Maybe it would be interesting to combine these ideas Plotly Dash offers an opensource dashboard
  1140. emus dwd: Yes, I know, just saying
  1141. dwd emus, And I was just moaning. :-)
  1142. dwd (I'm sitting on a train that's now reached England on "Freedom Day", and somewhat releaved to see most people are still wearing masks)
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  1148. emus I think it would be easier to organise work and get people into it if we point out and plan what work it would be. At least the maintenance work would be a great start. wurstsalat has some knowledge, but the does not want to build on the current system for example. And maybe this is another good point to discuss if we may should discuss if we pay someone for this work. I guess the situation is not getting better. But in general, making such a plan could be a think. Im.happy to support and do a lot, but still lack many knowledge here.
  1149. emus maybe board can discuss if they see things where they can support. Maybe making this more public in the xsf
  1150. dwd you mean the current website syste,?
  1151. dwd you mean the current website system?
  1152. dwd (Ugh, laptop keyboards are horrible)
  1153. Zash Why?
  1154. emus dwd: I think so. Just take a look at the PRs and issues
  1155. emus Zash: why what?
  1156. Zash Why are all laptop keyboards so terrible?
  1157. emus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull
  1158. vanitasvitae Thinkpad keyboards are formidable
  1159. dwd I mean, I'm not wholly sold on the website system, but I'm utterly unsold on another year where someone rewrites it to the systeme-du-jour and we end up back at square one again.
  1160. Zash And why is Let's Encrypt having trouble? Is it time to panic? Is this the End Times?
  1161. emus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/942
  1162. dwd No, all laptop kyeboards suck. I only use them on the train. Normally I've a nice wireless mechanical, but it's in my bag.
  1163. vanitasvitae But then again I don't like mechanical keyboards so I might not have a say i .this discussion :P
  1164. BASSGOD has left
  1165. emus cmon guys, offtopic ☺
  1166. vanitasvitae Topic is key™
  1167. Sam dwd: which one? The only wireless mechanical I know of is terrible at wireless.
  1168. dwd vanitasvitae, Ah, which mechanicals have you tried? I'm on a tactile G915 TKL, and the lack of click is lovely.
  1169. emus dwd: Would be okay to support an evalutation pro / contra and I help up writing things up? Who was involved in doing the website?
  1170. Zash Keyboards are very relevant to XMPP. Can't chat without one!
  1171. dwd vanitasvitae, I don't like the clicky keys. But that's OK, because nor would anyone else for a 20 mile radius.
  1172. vanitasvitae I'm not sure which ones I tried, but I'm just not used to the long travel anymore. It tires my fingers :D
  1173. dwd emus, Lots of people who are no longer here. I think maybe ralphm was on the Board back then.
  1174. Zash dwd, brown switches?
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  1176. dwd emus, Personally, I don't mind what system we use as long as we actually use it - if it's maintained, has useful info that we *and* casual visitors find useful.
  1177. dwd Zash, In efcect, yes, but it's Logitech and they don't use Cherry.
  1178. Zash I have a das keyboard with brown switches. Now I'm even more allergic to all my laptops.
  1179. dwd Zash, Ah, nice.
  1180. emus I agree. Im gonna write up something
  1181. dwd Sam, Also, yes, it's wireless. Bluetooth and a low-latency USB-A dongle.
  1182. Sam dwd: what's it called?
  1183. emus 😑
  1184. dwd Sam, "Logitech G915 TKL". It was... not exactly cheap. But my fingers love me.
  1185. dwd Sam, The main disadvantage is that it weighs slightly more than my car.
  1186. Sam Thanks. I got an Anne Pro II (I think?) for travel and it's nice in terms of weight and size, but the bluetooth is bad enough to be worthless (drops keys constantly)
  1187. dwd Maybe I should go all Diva and insist work buys me another if they want me to come into the office....
  1188. papatutuwawa has joined
  1189. dwd Sam, Previous wireless was a Bluetooth thing by Jellycomb, one of these bulk brands. Low profile keys but full-size, surprisingly good.
  1190. emus leaves to do some XMPP work with his 10 yrs old simple low-budget logitech keyboard
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  1192. dwd Sam, And yeah, I'm really really set in my ways with keyboard layouts. Can't do 60%, and have to have a UK style return key.
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  1194. vanitasvitae I love my Thinkpad keyboard so much that I bought a Thinkpad desktop keyboard because I couldnt get used to my old one anymore :D
  1195. Daniel The Venn diagram of 88 keys, wireless and blue switches is extremely small
  1196. dwd Likewise the Venn diagram of Brown/UK layout/full-size/TKL.
  1197. ralphm emus, dwd: the website was mostly Adam for content and Simon for tech.
  1198. pjn has joined
  1199. dwd And I'll be passing very close to that tunnel shortly.
  1200. dwd (Currently just pulled into Reading)
  1201. dwd Maybe I should take the longer route on the tube and take a selfie in the tunnel?
  1202. ralphm As for keyboards, I am rocking a Logitech K810. One of the best they ever made, and until they do a MX Keys tenkeyless, I am sticking with it.
  1203. emus ralphm: Thanks, but there is no contact available to these persons anymore?
  1204. emus at least for questions?
  1205. ralphm Sure, but why? I don't read the whole discussion.
  1206. ralphm Didn't
  1207. dwd Not impressed by the MX Keys at all. Tempted by the MX Master mouse, but figures I'd go the Logitech G route for that too, and been very happy.
  1208. dwd My desktop uses a wired Roccat Isku and Tyon; lovely but both showing their age and the Isku isn't close to the G915, except for the programmable thumb buttons.
  1209. ralphm Not sure about the rise, indeed. The K810 is nice and flat, and I got a great sheath for it from sfbags. Really don't understand why they discontinued it. I only read praise about its quality and sadness on it being discontinued.
  1210. ralphm Maybe it is too good
  1211. emus ralphm: If I create a list and collection actions we might can raise questions for their opinion and break down efforts, system-evaluation
  1212. ralphm Nah. Just do what you deem appropriate.
  1213. ralphm We don't need design by committee, just people putting in the work
  1214. ralphm And both of them have moved on
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  1216. ralphm dwd: ohh, I didn't realize there's a tenkeyless version of the G915. That's interesting
  1217. dwd ralphm, Yes, and it - unlike it's companion mouse - does do Bluetooth. Not that I've ever tried it; perhaps I should.
  1218. dwd packs away the laptop before Paddington - catch you all later.
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  1220. ralphm Right. Whatever next keyboard MUST have Bluetooth. I am ok with it also supporting some proprietary RF
  1221. moparisthebest This was my first mechanical keyboard https://www.moparisthebest.com/images/keyboard.jpg
  1222. ralphm The biggest issue is getting US ANSI layout in Europe.
  1223. moparisthebest I still use the same layout (which I call Unix programmer's Dvorak) but on an IBM Model M which I'm convinced is the best keyboard ever made
  1224. moparisthebest Unless you work around other people, in which case it's just rude
  1225. ralphm hehe
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  1230. Zash I used a keyboard with blue switches for a while. Then it mysteriously disappeared.
  1231. Zash It was very nice to type on tho
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  1234. moparisthebest Blues are my second favorite after buckling springs
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  1236. qy Anyone got the OTR xep to hand?
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  1239. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0378.html ?
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  1242. Sam There's not really an OTR XEP. It's a third party thing that's chat-system agnostic.
  1243. Sam The one Zash linked and https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0364.html contain a tiny bit of XMPP specific stuff describing it, but really you probably just don't want to use OTR these days.
  1244. Zash Oh, it was the expanded name
  1245. Zash I just ^F OTR
  1246. Zash And then there's OTRv4, which will if I understand correctly, have all the requirements of OMEMO, but none of the benefits.
  1247. BASSGOD has joined
  1248. Zash As in, no multi-device support.
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  1251. emus qy - why OTR?
  1252. qy Oh, hmm
  1253. qy Was just thinking since im being so slow at implementing omemo i could knock out otr or pgp in the mean time to theres at least *something*
  1254. qy Was just thinking since im being so slow at implementing omemo i could knock out otr or pgp in the mean time so theres at least *something*
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  1256. moparisthebest Pgp is easy, at least xep-27
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  1259. qy Then i can drop blabber maybe
  1260. qy For all intents and purposes
  1261. qy Hmm
  1262. qy How do clients do with pgp?
  1263. qy And with switching from pgp to omemo and back?
  1264. ben i wouldn't bother with anything but omemo
  1265. ben i've never seen pgp or otr in the wild
  1266. qy But as a stopgap, cause i cant reliably use my client for PMs until i do
  1267. qy But most clients implement pgp right
  1268. qy So i could use that for the few folk i talk to
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  1271. ben i can't think of any that do pgp
  1272. BASSGOD has joined
  1273. ben unless gajim does? i've never set it up if so
  1274. Sam I think gajim does or used to? That's the only one I know of.
  1275. Sam Definitely not "most" or even "many" though.
  1276. qy Gajim does, think dino does? Conv and forks do
  1277. qy Thats basically all i care about
  1278. ben pretty sure dino doesn't
  1279. ben and i didn't know that conv did
  1280. Sam Conversations doesn't, it used to IIRC but not for a long time
  1281. Zash Doesn't what?
  1282. Sam Implement PGP
  1283. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/s/H9GrMqy4hTMNLVeW/a5d5167e-d4a8-44f5-9771-14f025ee16de.png
  1284. Zash from Dino ↑
  1285. Sam oh nevermind, apparently it still does, ignore me.
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  1287. qy Yeah, thou,ht so
  1288. qy So literally all the clients that matter do, so i could do it
  1289. Zash I've been considering deprecating my GPG/PGP key, ever since I tried to set up per-device subkeys.
  1290. ben pgp is such a hot mess ui/ux -wise
  1291. Sam That's a big step down from "most" (but still, fair enough, more than I expected)
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  1295. Zash Meta: Sure would be nice to have more DOAP so we could answer questions like this
  1296. qy Idk i think i know a grand total of 2 other clients that i actually know people regularly use
  1297. wgreenhouse has left
  1298. qy So yeah thats "most" for my PoV at least
  1299. Sam huh, Profanity does too, guess I'm just wrong and it actually is wide spread and no one is talking about it
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  1301. Sam And Mcabber, apparently.
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  1303. Zash Year of the OX? :)
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  1305. qy Sam: Ready your keys ;)
  1306. Sam nope, never again, PGP is hot garbage
  1307. Zash Sam, you're thinking of GPG
  1308. Sam *nods* fair.
  1309. qy Tbf to use it with conversations you need that extra app, and a key on your android
  1310. Sam Basically everything GNU touches turns into a usability nightmare, so maybe I should use other implementations first before saying that
  1311. ben i've heard good things about sequoia?
  1312. Zash OpenPGP - the specifications and stuff could probably be salvaged
  1313. qy > Zash wrote: > I've been considering deprecating my GPG/PGP key, ever since I tried to set up per-device subkeys. How did this go bad?
  1314. Sam Heh, I missed that. I think that's the point at which I decided I din't care to use it anymore too.
  1315. Zash qy: GPG encrypts to the most recent subkey. *Only* that key. Thus I must find that machine to read anything encrypted. (Which is less than one email per year.)
  1316. qy Oh
  1317. qy This looks neat
  1318. qy > ben wrote: > i've heard good things about sequoia?
  1319. Zash Usually this is the laptop with the broken keyboard, that I don't use as much because of the broken keyboard.
  1320. Zash (Laptop keyboards! Aaaaargh)
  1321. ben looks like conversations needs openkeychain to also be installed for pgp
  1322. Zash Oh and now when the keyserver network is basically defunct and gone ... how are you going to get my new subkeys?
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  1325. ben i've gotten like 3 pgp-encrypted mails ever
  1326. Zash ben, with 2/3 sent during a keyparty?
  1327. ben i mean yeah
  1328. qy > ben wrote: > looks like conversations needs openkeychain to also be installed for pgp > I wrote: > Tbf to use it with conversations you need that extra app, and a key on your android
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  1330. Zash I do use it for signing software releases tho
  1331. ben too much hassle
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  1333. ben i don't want to bother getting my yubikey out and finding an OTG adapter
  1334. ben yeah i use it for gpg-agent --ssh and signing git commits
  1335. ben not for mail or chat though
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  1349. Holger > Whatever next keyboard MUST have Bluetooth. https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/filco-convertible-2-tenkeyless-tactile-action-usa-ascii-keyboards.asp
  1350. qy The problem with trying to replace gpg with sq i guess would be the number of things that hardcode gpg
  1351. qy And looks like they dont share a keyring?
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  1353. ben i wouldn't bother with pgp at all but it's your client :P
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  1358. qy I dunno. Im just looking for ways to be lazy
  1359. Holger Personally I love it, but of course, existing UX is unusable for non-geeks.
  1360. qy Gpg? Or xmpp-pgp
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  1363. Holger XMPP-PGP. Gives me E2EE with history access on new devices.
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  1369. wgreenhouse > Oh and now when the keyserver network is basically defunct and gone ... how are you going to get my new subkeys? tofu, just like omemo
  1370. wgreenhouse > XMPP-PGP. Gives me E2EE with history access on new devices. exactly, different users land differently on the history access/forward secrecy tradeoff
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  1373. qy Neat.
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  1389. qy Yeesh. Ripping my key out of openkeychain was not fun
  1390. qy Note to self, next time do it the other direction
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  1396. wgreenhouse qy: termux has a thing to use openkeychain as a gpg agent
  1397. wgreenhouse I haven't gotten it to work for my usecases, but it exists
  1398. wgreenhouse https://github.com/DDoSolitary/okc-agents
  1399. qy Hm
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