XSF Discussion - 2021-07-20

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  32. sadest ben, ben:
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  215. goffi Hi, can anybody confirmS my understanding of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#owner-purge: "If a service persists published items, a node owner may want to purge the node of all published items (thus removing all items from the persistent store, with the exception of the last published item, which MAY be cached)." . So the last item (as in most recently published) must be kept right? Because on one hand we have "purge the node of all published items" and on the other "with the exception of the last published item, which MAY be cached". (ralphm ?)
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  217. Zash Sounds like it imagines a tiered storage system, where you have the persistence layer that stores `max_items`, and then a cache of the last item for re-sending on subscribe or presence. Purge would primarily operate on the persistence layer, but why not both?
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  220. goffi and the caching is an implementation detail anyway. For me purge should remove all items from the node, not keeping the last one.
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  222. Zash That seems like the sensible way, yes. But the spec allows keeping it 🤷️
  223. goffi I can deal with that, but I'm not sure about the spec, it just allows to keep it, or we HAVE to keep the last one? I hope it's the later, because otherwise when we have a purge event, we don't know if the last one is still there or not.
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  228. Zash "MAY"
  229. Zash https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2119#section-5
  230. Zash > mean that an item is truly optional
  231. goffi I understood it as the MAY is for "cached", "MAY be cached".
  232. goffi so the way I get it, is it MAY be cached, but we remove all but last item.
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  236. Zash Hmmmm
  237. ralphm I read it as, if you need to keep the last published item, e.g. for PEP use cases, a service MAY keep the last item when a node is purged.
  238. ralphm Also, I don't remember this changing. I agree it is confusing.
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  240. goffi OK, so we don't really know if last item it kept or not when we receive the purge event?
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  243. Zash Speaking of pubsub, I wonder if I've misunderstood the whole persistence thing at some point. In Prosody, the `persist_items` setting toggles between persistence to storage and persistence to an in-memory cache. So `persist_items=false` just means that data is forgotten on reboot, but otherwise it looks the same from the outside.
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  245. Zash Now I'm wondering if it's actually supposed to forget stuff after broadcast. And then maybe a different cache with 1 item for rebroadcast of last item.
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  253. goffi Zash I understood it as the former too, but the later would make sense, and after checking the spec, it's not really sure which one it is.
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  310. MattJ Yeah, I'm not sure whether the items are stored in memory or on disk is really useful (or should be controlled by) a client
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  312. MattJ Time for Pubsub 2.0 :)
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  315. Zash Before or after The Split happens?
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  338. ralphm Zash: yes, that's wrong indeed. With persist_items false, you don't store them in any way and also if the item doesn't have an id you don't have to generate one for the notifications.
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  340. ralphm The method of storage, or any other type of guarantees on the retention cannot currently be controlled by the client in a standard way. Other than maybe the pubsub#item_expire config option.
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  344. ralphm goffi: to be honest, I think the exception for the last item feels weird to me and I wouldn't object to removing that.
  345. goffi ralphm: it would be possible on a draft XEP ?
  346. ralphm Let's see what the council thinks after you PR the change :D
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  348. Zash Don't forget to discuss it on the standards list :)
  349. ralphm This author doesn't object, if that helps.
  350. goffi ralphm: I'm finishing a protoXEP to indicate extra data giving details on Pubsub implementation, so we can safely cache a node, I'll propose it later this week. I've added this case, so maybe it's not necessary.
  351. Zash s/MAY/SHOULD NOT/ ought to be safe from a interop perspective, but then who'd rely on a cache anyway?
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  353. ralphm I'm not even sure what the difference is between caching and storage, from a protocol perspective.
  354. Zash Indeed
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  356. goffi ralphm: I mean for caching a pubsub service from a client (local cache)
  357. goffi but I guess I'll propose the protoXEP first, we can discuss after.
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  361. ralphm Unfortunately when Kev converted the repo from Subversion, we didn't keep the older history, so I can't check how it got in.
  362. ralphm In any case somewhere between 1.6 and 1.9
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  368. ralphm goffi: by the way, you *can* detect this. There's a `cache-last-item` feature. Apparently it doesn't appear in the list of features in section 10 nor is it registered with the Registrar.
  369. ralphm That feels like a bug
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  372. goffi ralphm: one of the problems is that those features may only be accessible to node owner (even to only read the value).
  373. ralphm wait huh?
  374. goffi those features are in node configuration right? Node configuration may not be accessible from a random user.
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  377. ralphm Why not? They should be available via disco
  378. ralphm If they are not, all bets are off. You wouldn't even know if a node persists items in the first place. Also, the purge action is for the node owner, who should definitely be able to see the node config.
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  409. lovetox ralphm, its not a give that every configuration is avaliable as disco info
  410. lovetox we had similar issues with the MUC XEP
  411. MattJ Yeah, those things are ugly :)
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  413. lovetox but this is i guess in part because it was never intended for that or ?
  414. lovetox its about what features a service supports
  415. lovetox not neccessarily how the service is configured currently
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  418. MattJ Yeah, I think it probably began as "it's useful to see some of the important configuration info" + "we don't want to dump the entire config into disco"
  419. MattJ and they don't necessarily map 1->1
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  421. MattJ e.g. config option 'roomconfig_whois' maps to the features 'muc_nonanonymous'/'muc_semianonymous'
  422. MattJ I don't think it's a bad design given those constraints, but it could do with a bit more consistency
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  428. ralphm lovetox: I meant node meta data discovery (section 5.4), where the node's configuration is passed as a Data Form in the disco#info response.
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  430. ralphm This is the only true way to find out if, say, a node supports persistent storage. I know the section is a MAY, but not supporting this is meh.
  431. goffi ralphm: it can be configured per node, and it's not in node disco (at least it's not enforced). That's exactly what my XEP is doing: making sure it's in metadata. Also purge is done by node owner, but if I cache a node as simple subscriber member, I want to be aware of the purge.
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  434. ralphm You'd get a purge notification?
  435. goffi if I'm a subscriber, yes
  436. goffi why would not I get it?
  437. ralphm That's the deal, I guess. If you are a subscriber, you get notifications.
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  439. goffi yes, but not all. There are lot of corner case. For the purge I get a "purge" notification, but if I don't know if the last item is kept or not, I can't replicate the command in my local cache.
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  442. ralphm Sure, I understand that. I agree that implementations should expose node meta data through disco. FWIW, an implementation that does should present that in a regular disco#info feature. Also this feature is RECOMMENDED.
  443. ralphm What silly implementations don't support this, really?
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  445. ralphm (pubsub#metadata, I mean)
  446. goffi I haven't seen it a lot in the wild to be honest.
  447. Zash did you mean `pubsub#meta-data` :D
  448. ralphm No
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  451. ralphm Zash: oh, crap. Well, I guess we can add a ticket against Prosody :-(
  452. goffi and ejabberd
  453. goffi and propably most pubsub implementations
  454. ralphm goffi: I mean that Prosody presents this with http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#meta-data instead of #metadata.
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  456. goffi oh prosody does it, OK.
  457. ralphm Oh, cool. Even idavoll has #meta-data. /me hides in shame
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  461. ralphm I can't tell if ejabberd announces support for Node Metadata, but it does implement it as far as I can see.
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  463. goffi yes, and non owner can't get config
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  466. goffi how it does sorry, I've misread
  467. goffi it does? I have nothing on a ejabberd PEP node
  468. ralphm https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/1421
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  472. ralphm Although I wouldn't be surprised if it behaves differently for PEP nodes.
  473. goffi weird, I'm actually testing on edhelas blog node I don't see any metadata.
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  475. Zash Huh
  476. goffi oh
  477. Zash How did this happen?
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  479. edhelas 😱
  480. ralphm Zash: don't worry, if all actual implementations use #meta-data, we can change it in XEP-0060 :D
  481. edhelas what are you looking for ?
  482. ralphm edhelas: Pubsub Node Metadata (see section 5.4)
  483. edhelas I see
  484. Zash ``` <field type='hidden' var='FORM_TYPE'> <value>http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#meta-data</value> </field> ```
  485. ralphm Zash: well, yes. But that is kinda useless. It should be in a <feature/>, cause otherwise, how'd you know to expect the form?
  486. ralphm oh never mind
  487. ralphm It looks like tigase has http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#metadata.
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  490. ralphm And basically anyone else: http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#meta-data
  491. goffi alright I see it on a non PEP node with ejabberd (with meta-data :-/)
  492. goffi but not in the PEP node
  493. ralphm goffi: happy for you to push ejabberd to start supporting this in PEP nodes.
  494. Zash And no more info on the change that added this than "mod_pubsub: Advertise title and description in disco#info"
  495. ralphm Zash: I'm not surprised. Idavoll was one of the first implementations, so I wouldn't be surprised if that had a knock-on effect.
  496. Zash So no idea if _someone_ copypasted from ejabberd, or from an example shown by whoever requested this, whatever it was
  497. goffi well 2 wolves found with Pubsub specs/implementations (not sure if this expression translates to English, but whatever), we have not lost our day.
  498. Zash Write longer commit messages plz!
  499. Zash (it was me)
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  501. ralphm My commit to add support was on 2005-01-02.
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  505. Zash this was just 2018
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  507. ralphm The version of XEP-0060 supporting this was published on 2004-07-13.
  508. ralphm (the disco feature)
  509. Zash Heh, nodes only have a leaf identity and a form in disco#info
  510. ralphm hm
  511. Zash Someone pointed out recently that disco#info itself is required (*hint* if someone wanna send a trivial patch)
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  513. ralphm And the service, because that's where the feature should be published
  514. Zash Whatabout individual nodes?
  515. MattJ That disco#info thing makes no sense to me :)
  516. Zash Mmmm, yeah, getting a non-error response kinda implies that it's supported :)
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  518. ralphm Zash: I think nodes should only have the http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub feature
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  520. ralphm But I'm sure we can clarify if nodes should have disco features other than that.
  521. ralphm I _think_ the features listed in Section 10 are service wide, though.
  522. ralphm Also, I don't there's anything particularly wrong with announcing all the features on each node, but not needed.
  523. Zash Did you already notice that there's no #meta(-?)data feature? Only the form
  524. ralphm Zash: in Prosody you mean?
  525. Zash In XEP-0060
  526. Zash Orrr, wait
  527. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#registrar-features does list it
  528. ralphm Section 10 does, too.
  529. Zash Ah, because I searched for "pubsub#meta"
  530. Zash But then the FORM_TYPE is a bit like a feature if you squint at it
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  533. Zash Oh, there, now I see pubsub#meta-data on the service itself
  534. ralphm yay
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  536. ralphm except for the dash, of course
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  538. ralphm I'm not sure how to treat this, spec-wise. Curious if there are other implementations that have #metadata, besides Tigase.
  539. ralphm intosi: what does MLink have?
  540. Zash What do clients expect?
  541. intosi M-Link doesn't do PubSub meta-data.
  542. ralphm At all?
  543. intosi At all.
  544. ralphm Didn't expect that, but at least it doesn't use the wrong namespace then.
  545. ralphm Zash: Clients might not actually check
  546. Zash WHAT
  547. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-0060-1.13.2.html#entity-metadata here it is #meta-data ??
  548. Zash searches vcs log for meta-data
  549. Zash https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/660ff16274cebad556115f94b6ce7550c17b32e5 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/37c7b852f302fca26a885e9d2c2aea5de019fc3e https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/6842676930122aaa2988cf3595175849fd7fa4f8
  550. MattJ Aha
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  559. Zash jonas’, editors, something for you to look at? ↑
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  572. ralphm OUCH!
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  575. ralphm pep. strikes with search/replace :-D
  576. ralphm Also https://tdan.com/the-meta-data-fiasco/18502
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  578. jonas’ why the rerevert though
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  580. jonas’ I recall the issue, but not the resolution
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  582. Zash It's very nice when you track down an issue and find a commit with a long commit message that explains the reasoning.
  583. ralphm I'm not sure the assertion that "meta-data" being wrong is true.
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  586. debacle ralphm Michael Brackett has a wrong understanding on what a tautology is. "metadata" (= data about data) is not a tautology, a "discussion about discussions" is not a tautology etc.
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  589. ralphm Sure, but the bit about trademarks is interesting
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  591. ralphm I also don't think that linguistically, putting a hyphen into a compound word is wrong.
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  593. debacle ralphm I agree, that the hyphen were wrong in English, but we Germans *love* to put wrong hyphens in English compound nouns!
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  599. ralphm Well, I know that in Dutch, compound words generally cannot have a space in them, and hyphens can be inserted for clarity.
  600. ralphm If I were to talk about "Service Discovery" as a concept in Dutch, borrowing the English term, I would have to write "service-discovery".
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  602. ralphm Simply because "service" is not (used as) an adjective.
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  605. ralphm (and Dutch also doesn't capitalize nouns like German does, so you can't tell the difference)
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  612. ralphm jonas’: shall I put in a PR?
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  614. Holger > ralphm I agree, that the hyphen were wrong in English, but we Germans *love* to put wrong hyphens in English compound nouns! Simply concatenating two words is certainly wrong in English, though. (Except when it isn't.)
  615. debacle I find it convincing in Bracketts text, that "meta" is a prefix word and therefore does not have a hyphen, so "metadata" is correct in the prosa. However, the XML namespace is a different thing.
  616. Holger https://metalhead.club/@holger/106133744976748781
  617. debacle Like Bracketts example "metaphysics" etc.
  618. Zash Something something "sär skrivning"
  619. ralphm Holger: well, hyphenated compound words tend to become closed compound words with time. E.g. if a compound word is used "enough" the hyphen tends to be dropped eventually.
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  626. jonas’ the heck
  627. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/710
  628. jonas’ so either this was a typo in some commit id or I don't know
  629. jonas’ I apparently merged it without re-checking closely...
  630. jonas’ ralphm, go ahead please!
  631. ralphm ok
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  633. jonas’ Kev, repoke: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1047
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  636. jonas’ also, sorry everyone ;)
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  643. ralphm jonas’: for what? The meta-data thing? Maybe you are 'just' human?
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  646. Zash Errare humanum est.
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  656. goffi FYI I've just proposed a protoXEP to fix some issues mentioned earlier today: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pubsub-caching-hints.html .
  657. ralphm jonas’: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1092
  658. jonas’ ralphm, thanks!
  659. ralphm You're welcome. Zash: thanks for the find!
  660. Zash np
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  664. ralphm Also put in a drive-by comment over at Tigase.
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  666. ralphm Look like they only put that in in May this year: https://github.com/tigase/tigase-pubsub/pull/5
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  668. ralphm Looks
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  670. Zash The addition in Prosody was only a few months before, ejabberd seems to have had it a couple years more.
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  673. mathieui jonas’, that was a lot of emails! (thanks for the work :D)
  674. jonas’ well, automation did the job
  675. jonas’ thanks to Sam for pointing out that I should trigger the automation more often :)
  676. ralphm yay scripting
  677. mathieui pushing a button to run a script is still work
  678. ralphm It sure is. This is what pays bills (in other places)
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  694. ralphm Wojtek: fast turn-around :-D
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  733. Wojtek owning to Andrzej :-)
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  773. goffi We don't have a standard way to indicate in disco that a feature is implemented for a something but not something, do we? For instance on a server, we want to indicate if RSM support is for PEP/Pubsub and/or MAM and/or disco items. There is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-retrieve-returnsome with its "http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#rsm" but I have the feeling that we need something more flexible, this looks like a piece of sticky tape.
  774. goffi something but not something else*
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  777. flow goffi, no, cross products of features are an issue. the similar is similar with SCE: if someone announced support for SCE and, say, chatstates, does that mean that SCE-encrypted chatstates are also supported?
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  779. flow Personally I would lean to the safe side and usually ask for an explicit announcement of those things
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  782. goffi Because I'm updating the Order-By XEP following feedbacks, and I need a way to indicate if it applies to Pubsub, MAM, or anything else.
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  784. goffi What do you think of `urn:xmpp:order-by:0#urn:xmpp:mam:2` (so `feature_supported#where_it_applies`)? Do you see any problem with this kind of notation? It would be flexible and I could publish a new XEP to formalise it.
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  789. goffi maybe something else that "#" as "#" is used by some protocols to indicate sub-features (e.g. pubsub)
  790. goffi or two "##"? I can try with that and see what happens on standard@
  791. flow goffi, hmm, what about urn:xmpp:order-by:0@urn:xmpp:mam:2
  792. flow but, tbh, it all looks rather ugly
  793. goffi if you have a better options, I'll be happy
  794. flow otoh, something like this would also been my first attempt at this :)
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  796. goffi If have against "@" and it make sens as it means "at", I just find it slighly more difficult to read ("@" is close to "0"), but that's a question fo taste, not really relevant.
  797. goffi I have nothing against "@"*
  798. goffi makes sense*
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  806. emus Why do we actually not have a nice XEP bot here? ☺ Alex: anything possible? 😃
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  812. Alex In the old days we had one. But I can't remember who wrote and maintained it.
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  824. jonas’ emus, what would it do?
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  828. emus point you to the xep on request or other details
  829. jonas’ on which request?
  830. emus what I saw today was: !xep XEP Number -- recieve information about the specified XEP
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  841. mathieui emus, why a bot when you can just ask Link Mauve ;)
  842. emus 😀 work that a machine can do should be done by a machine 🙂
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  844. deuill Is it a coincidence that Link Mauve means Purple Link, which is what followed links are usually colored as?
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  914. Ellenor Malik uh, wouldn't they be Lien Mauve?
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  934. emus Alex, jonas' https://github.com/mightyBroccoli/xmpp-chatbot
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