XSF Discussion - 2021-07-22

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  158. Zash Re the pubsub persistence thing from the other day, I went on an epic quest trough the endless yaks and discovered that the fallback RLU cache returns items in the opposite order from the storage layer. So now I wonder how picky https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-retrieve is about the order of items.
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  160. jonas’ .oO(reast lecently used?)
  161. Ellenor Malik giggles
  162. Zash RLWrite*
  163. edhelas Zash AH ! :D
  164. edhelas could we decide once for all for the "default order" ? most recents on top
  165. Zash That would be easier, but now we have a ton of test cases that expect oldest first, except for the unit tests, that check for the opposite order because they're using the cache implementation rather than the storage backend :/
  166. Zash Such fun!
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  168. edhelas Would it be a good idea to add a small paragraph to this 0060 section to simply add a "The pubsub service MUST always returns the node items in anti-chronological order (most recent first)" ?
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  172. edhelas it is indeed an issue for clients like Movim because I'm using this order to display the news articles
  173. Zash The example closest to the section I linked shows chronological, oldest-first order
  174. Zash And we all know that the examples are The Source Of Truth!!! ;)
  175. edhelas ok, knowing that there is also this XEP https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0413.html to reverse it
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  178. edhelas so you could implement it "on the way" ;)
  179. edhelas but the issue still remains for the "default" case
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  182. Zash The storage layer actually flips it already to get chronological order, for implementation reasons.
  183. edhelas ejabberd always returns most-recent-first (Holger correct me if I'm wrong)
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  185. Holger I think so yes.
  186. Zash The storage layer actually flips it already to get chronological order, for implementation reasons.
  187. Holger Oldest first by default sounds sensible to me, esp. as that's how RSM works …
  188. Holger What about 'published' vs. 'updated'?
  189. Zash There's no "updated"
  190. Holger ``` <published>2003-12-12T17:47:23Z</published> <updated>2003-12-12T17:47:23Z</updated> ```
  191. ralphm Holger: huh? RSM doesn't define the sorting of results, does it?
  192. Zash Holger, those are elements of the Atom payload, they don't mean that pubsub has the concept of "updated"
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  196. Zash Publishing an item with an item id that is already used deletes the previous item, I think
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  199. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#publisher-publish-success has some text
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  201. Holger Ah right, yes I meant modification by means of republishing with the same item ID. Couldn't find text regarding the time stamp but whatever.
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  204. Holger ralphm: > Holger: huh? RSM doesn't define the sorting of results, does it? Right, it just assumes an ordered set. To me, chronological ordering seems to play more intuitive with RSM's before/after terminology.
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  215. goffi Zash: edhelas: I believe that pubsub returns in chronological order, except if max-items is used
  216. goffi actually even with max-items.
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  218. goffi chronological (oldest first) seems the more natural to me with XEP-0060 alone (and that match the examples), then there is XEP-0413 (Order-By), which I've just updated by the way.
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  221. goffi Holger: XEP-0060 doesn't has a notion of updated, it's just overwriting a item (thus the item is new again). This concept is introduced in XEP-0413 only.
  222. goffi doesn't have
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  380. wuuko Is Cisco the official owner of XMPP?
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  382. ben no
  383. wuuko Who?
  384. Ge0rG wuuko: Cisco is the owner of the Jabber™ trademark, but the XSF has a right to sub-license it.
  385. Ge0rG wuuko: what parts of XMPP are you looking for, specifically? The protocol? The name? The logos?
  386. Menel > Who? Everyone can use it at will
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  390. wgreenhouse wuuko: not to be harsh--but you ask a lot of seemingly aimless questions on multiple channels, many of which could be answered by reading publicly available materials on your own. it would be helpful to know what your real objective is.
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  393. wuuko Ok. No problem.
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  445. ralphm Something came up, will not make it today.
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  453. arc Ok
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  455. arc Is anyone else here?
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  460. arc I don't see dwd or mattj, but it is early here so I'm not sure if I'm just overlooking them
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  471. arc Yeah it looks like we can't have a board meeting this week due to lack of quorum. See everyone next week!
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  475. wuuko Does the XMPP team generate revenue with sponsors?
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  488. moparisthebest What "XMPP team" ? I don't think such a thing exists
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  490. Zash Perhaps you mean The XMPP Standards Foundation (the “Corporation”)
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  494. wuuko > Zash wrote: > Perhaps you mean The XMPP Standards Foundation (the “Corporation”) Yes.
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  498. Zash The Treasurer would know for sure.
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  501. Zash USSHC provides hosting, is all I'm reasonably sure of. Then there's usually some money that goes to pay for the Summit Dinner.
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  506. wuuko So how is the software evolving? > Zash wrote: > USSHC provides hosting, is all I'm reasonably sure of. Then there's usually some money that goes to pay for the Summit Dinner.
  507. Zash What software?
  508. wuuko XMPP and clients > Zash wrote: > What software?
  509. moparisthebest The XSF doesn't write software
  510. Zash The XSF makes standards in the form of the XEP series, not software.
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  513. Zash I guess the scripts etc the Editor uses would count as software... but not XMPP software etc
  514. wuuko Is xep what's evolving?
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  516. Zash XEPs <https://xmpp.org/extensions/> evolve, XMPP related software evolves...
  517. moparisthebest wuuko: what does "evolving" even mean?
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  524. wuuko > moparisthebest wrote: > wuuko: what does "evolving" even mean? You can use it to address the vulnerability, add something new, and so on.
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  527. moparisthebest No? That makes no sense
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  530. wuuko > moparisthebest wrote: > No? That makes no sense Why?
  531. wgreenhouse as already said, the XSF doesn't write XMPP software. many individual projects do. the XSF discusses [proposed and existing] XMPP standards.
  532. moparisthebest wuuko, you seem to be under the impression that XMPP is a software that the XSF develops or something, and that's full of total misunderstandings
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  534. wuuko > Zash wrote: > XEPs <https://xmpp.org/extensions/> evolve, XMPP related software evolves... True one was this
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  537. wuuko And if there was a vulnerability of protocol, will it not be fixed?
  538. Daniel the S doesn’t stand for Software?
  539. Daniel is confused
  540. Zash Thinking of the Jabber Software Foundation?
  541. Zash XSF is The XMPP *Standards* Foundation
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  545. wuuko Hmm
  546. wuuko I am thinking
  547. wuuko > I wrote: > And if there was a vulnerability of protocol, will it not be fixed? I'm asking this for continuity.
  548. moparisthebest I *suppose*, a vulnerability in a protocol is a rather abstract thing
  549. moparisthebest xhtml-im was *kinda* cancelled for something similar
  550. moparisthebest https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html
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  555. wuuko So I *hope* xmpp doesn't interrupt me by not getting an update. Looks like it's getting an update.
  556. wuuko Because I will create server and will stop for many years
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  560. moparisthebest again, that makes no sense
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  564. moparisthebest xmpp is not a software, it doesn't get an update
  565. Zash XMPP-based software can get updates, which could be related to XMPP / XEP specification updates
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  572. wuuko > moparisthebest wrote: > xmpp is not a software, it doesn't get an update Maybe there'll be an error in protocol.
  573. wuuko > Zash wrote: > XMPP-based software can get updates, which could be related to XMPP / XEP specification updates Good
  574. Menel > Maybe there'll be an error in protocol. Sometimes some xeps get updates.
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  576. wuuko Thanks!
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  584. Menel But as you seldom see "security fixes" for http but many for browsers and webservers, its the same with xmpp and clients/servers
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  587. Zash > many for browsers and webservers, understatement of the timeline
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  591. Menel Especially browsers. I know. I first thought of mention it, that it is not remotely as bad with xmpp clients.
  592. Sam arc: while you're here, please reach out to me about the fiscal host stuff, your jid was dead for me :)
  593. wuuko > Menel wrote: > But as you seldom see "security fixes" for http but many for browsers and webservers, its the same with xmpp and clients/servers What do you mean, exactly? Why servers and clients are the same for browsers
  594. wuuko Are Clients aren't updating
  595. Menel I compared webbrowsers with xmpp clients.
  596. Menel They are
  597. wuuko I understand
  598. wuuko As a result, I will open a server for a long time interval
  599. Zash Did this page https://xmpp.org/extensions/ live in the xeps or website repo?
  600. Zash > many for browsers and webservers, understatement of the timeline
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  624. Zash Does https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#owner-purge-error-nopersist also cover the case where the node has been configured with persist_items=false ?
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  665. qy https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html#x-oob hey, what clients would implement this in a way that doesnt require the text in x to be the same as the text in body? Cause conversations behaves like that
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  667. Zash Mhm.
  668. jonas’ > Did this page https://xmpp.org/extensions/ live in the xeps or website repo? website, copying xeplist.xml from the Webserver at build time
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  677. qy Zash: do most clients do that?
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  679. Zash It's pretty much the unofficial standard now.
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  682. qy Why?!
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  684. Zash Conversations does it.
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  686. qy Oh for goodness sake
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  688. Zash That's one way to put it.
  689. Zash jonas’: I had a vision. To steal the column thing from https://modules.prosody.im/ for like the core RFCs and stuff.
  690. Zash But ... I'm going to have to edit the CSS for that, don't I?
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  697. Zash Oh how I'd like to throw out pelican and reuse the prosody.im static site generator, so strong.
  698. Zash Oh how I'd like to throw out pelican and reuse the prosody.im static site generator...
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  701. wurstsalat giggles
  702. wurstsalat I'd be there to help, if that's happening
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  740. emus Zash, wurstsalat: You have my 95% support - 5% left because I actually cannot professionally evaluate 🙈🤡
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  768. phryk Hey there. Do you have to be a member of the XSF to improve old or propose new XEPs?
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  771. Zash phryk: Hey. No, no such requirement for participantion.
  772. Zash Membership is mostly a formality for the legal organizational stuff. Tho you do need to be a member to be eligible for some positions.
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  774. phryk Thanks for the info, nice to hear. :)
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  795. phryk Kind of an unrelated thing, but any of you know about anyone ever running XMPP (whether client or server) on a toaster? :P
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  800. Zash phryk: That would be Link Mauve
  801. phryk @ Link Mauve, you did? :D Did you post about it anywhere?
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  806. mathieui phryk: not an actual toaster, but probably less powerful than any of the """smart""" ones of those days
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  809. phryk Yeah, but an actual toaster would make the point so well… ^^
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  811. qy So it can message you when toast is done?
  812. phryk Or it just runs a local XMPP service in case the internet breaks, I don't care. :P
  813. Zash Or would it? Producing enough waste heat to toast toast seems like a bad thing.
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  815. phryk I secede that point. A fridge running XMPP is also fine. :P
  816. Zash Better than a fridge participating in botnets :)
  817. phryk Hey, maybe that smartfridge botnet did its C&C over XMPP :P
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  826. qy You know what might help avoid this conversations-centric landscape? On each XEP on the site, indicate what clients implement it
  827. qy Its remarkably hard to work that information out
  828. qy E.g. wondering if any client implements 0447 or 0385
  829. phryk qv: I recently wrote a python script getting the list of official client DOAPs and rendering a nice unicode table.
  830. phryk https://rnd.phryk.net/phryk/xmpp-utils/src/branch/main/bin/xmpp-doaptable
  831. phryk (needs python modules requests, colorama and prettytable)
  832. phryk aand it seems to imply that no client actually implements 0044 :P
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  834. phryk Clients with a known DOAP are limited to Bruno , Conversations, Dino, Gajim, Monal IM, Movim, Poezio and yaxim tho.
  835. qy phryk: very nice!
  836. phryk why, thank you. :)
  837. qy So movim implements 0385 but thats it for both
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  839. phryk I have some semi-formed plans on building a suite of modular tools to evaluate some of this stuff, maybe including server compliance stuff, hence the repo name xmpp-utils. :)
  840. qy Yeah
  841. qy Sounds good
  842. phryk Yes, but some info is definitely missing from the DOAPs – Conversations for example doesn't note support for 0454 but it's the very thing that defined that behavior.
  843. phryk (OMEMO'd HTTP uploads)
  844. phryk Mhh, I still wanted to open issues about that particular XEP not being noted for Dino and Conversations…
  845. phryk But I'm currently writing my tractate on why lefties should use XMPP :D
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  852. qy Theyre all pretty happy on discord and mastodon i think
  853. phryk Fuck discord, Mastodon I'm on myself. :P
  854. phryk ActivityPub does what it's there for pretty well, I think.
  855. phryk But it's not exactly where the organizing of actions should happen. :P
  856. qy Matrix is pretty big for lefties too iirc
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  858. phryk No idea, never liked it. There's still no proper native client on my OS for it and I don't even know if a good native client exists for any platform…
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  860. phryk Or *any* native client on any platform… For all I can tell, it might just be electron all the way down… :F
  861. qy There's nheko
  862. qy And some terminal clients
  863. qy But im not gonna encourage matrix use
  864. phryk Oh nice, even a FreeBSD port exists. Now I at least have an alternative that's not completely shitty when some project only has matrix… :F
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  871. qy There's always... bifröst 😱
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  873. qy Extended your list a bit https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmSNbiLB1DYKAMMFRaWUbZrDnBcV7u7611sEqzYbrLeB4p
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  880. phryk qv if you empty out XEP_LIST it will just show all XEPs it found info on. That also means XEPs not mentioned at all won't show up, tho.
  881. phryk the plan of course is to make this into a CLI parameter, probably with a few predefined sets like noted in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0443.html
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  885. qy Oh i just fetched all the ones that have at least one impl
  886. qy Irrritating to read though
  887. qy Everything cool is missing impls
  888. phryk Well, not everything and as I said this info is incomplete because DOAPs is incomplete and many projects don't have DOAPs.
  889. phryk Tho yeah, more implementations would always be nice, especially for stuff like E2E encrypted file transfers and A/V chats. :)
  890. qy I need to implement oob filesharing (http, 0066) for my client, which is why i was reminded of that dumb conversations behaviour
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  893. qy Not really sure how i can implement recieving without fetching the file first, which is annoying
  894. qy Im tempted to embed a tiny ipfs server and use that for file storage
  895. qy Oh wait
  896. qy I could reupload it to local server and use that i guess
  897. phryk OOB transfers do HTTP? o_O
  898. qy phryk: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html#x-oob
  899. qy Thats the media sharing used by most clients rn
  900. qy With the added caveat of your body must be just the url alone, because something something inputmice
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  905. phryk Oh, so what clients usually do is implement 0363 for the upload and then 0066 to communicate the resulting URL to the recipient?
  906. phryk Mhh, does XMPP have something like a User Agent string?
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  917. qy Depends on the context
  918. qy But yes
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  920. phryk I have mod_e2e_policy deployed, like the concept but am missing features, am considering what I can implement…
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  922. phryk Ideally I want per-user policies, with an initial value of "optional" and an automatic grace period after which that changes to "required". and to extend it to cover file transfers and A/V chats. But also more specific and context-aware messages when something isn't using E2EE.
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  924. phryk For that it'd be nice to be able to automatically recommend alternative clients that do support E2EE for the thing that failed. :)
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