XSF Discussion - 2021-07-27

  1. moparisthebest Couldn't resist :) and maybe, same name there
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  64. Maskugatiger hi guys,if u want find my group..on gajim.. u only type this keyword "maskuga" on search box. start/join. then click button Global Group Chat Search. that all.
  65. moparisthebest I warned him he should stop with the spam in dino channel before this, he insists it's not spam, this is channel #4 that I've seen
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  182. ralphm Thanks, moparisthebest. Spam is in the eye of the beholder.
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  227. Sam The office hours are today at 1600 UTC! Join us for "Building a Chat Bot on Ad Hoc Commands" by Christopher Vollick: https://socialcoop.meet.coop/sam-pku-dud-niv
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  326. Holger Seems 0060's integer-or-max thing was defined for pubsub#max_items and two other node config options, but e.g. not for pubsub#max_payload_size, where I'd think it would make sense as well?
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  334. phryk Sam, sounds interesting, was wondering how to go about creating XMPP bots – and there's a few hours left before that so i can get some food in me. :)
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  368. phryk Sam, is it alright to share this invite link on the fediverse?
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  379. MattJ phryk, https://fosstodon.org/@xmpp/106642759433718435
  380. phryk Oooh, didn't even know the XSF had a fedi account, but that makes so much sense in hindsight that I'm embarassed I didn't realize it.^^
  381. phryk wait lol, i already follow that account :D
  382. phryk any clue whether i need previous knowledge about ad-hoc commands or the internals of any other xmpp spec/xep?
  383. Sam I'm not sure, I haven't talked to the presenter about the content
  384. phryk alrighty. it seems as though this sort of talk is at least a semi-regular occurance?
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  387. Sam In theory; lately no one seems to want to sign up
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  399. phryk When I got this setup finished, I might be interested in saying a bit about secure XMPP setups.
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  401. phryk That's gonna take at the very least a month tho. Besides some more minor stuff, I still have to implement a custom invite page, fix at least one bug in mod_e2e_policy and extend its featureset by a good chunk, and I never programmed in lua before. :P
  402. phryk Currently I'm writing a bunch of texts for the website to onboard people and give them what they need to make informed decisions.
  403. Sam You could always present on what you plan to do instead; that way it's more likely to happen 🙂
  404. phryk But that way, I don't have any actual findings. :P
  405. phryk Plus, it's an anarchist thing – I want propaganda of the deed: if I already did it and show it off it shows to others that and how it's possible. :)
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  417. emus The office hours start in about 30 mins! Join us for "Building a Chat Bot on Ad Hoc Commands" by Christopher Vollick: https://socialcoop.meet.coop/sam-pku-dud-niv
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  430. jonas’ Sam, what's your final take on https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1090, after list discussion?
  431. jonas’ can it be closed, do you want to update it?
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  443. Sam I still think it's fine as is, but might as well update it for the mam thing too
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  446. jonas’ Sam, could you explain where the current methods are not sufficient on list so that we have it documented? It's still not obvious to me.
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  500. goffi jonas’: hi, I didn't change the status from Deferred to experimental for https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1094, will it be done automatically?
  501. goffi apparently not, I'll make an other PR then
  502. jonas’ goffi: thx!
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  515. MattJ <iteam-hat>I guess the E2EE SIG wants a mailing list? How about a MUC? (cc vanitasvitae)
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  526. goffi jonas’: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1097/files
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  533. vanitasvitae I have thought about that as well, but I'm not sure how muvh benefit dedicated lists and rooms would bring.
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  535. vanitasvitae But it can't hurt either I guess. Whats the process of getting a MUC registered on xmpp.org?
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  537. MattJ My opinion is that a MUC would be valuable, but list discussion would be better on standards@ if the traffic is low
  538. vanitasvitae Yeah, thats more or less my opinion as well
  539. vanitasvitae Too many lists to keep track of :D
  540. MattJ But never enough MUCs!
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  544. vanitasvitae #thatsXMPP!
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  602. me9 > MattJ wrote: > My opinion is that a MUC would be valuable, but list discussion would be better on standards@ if the traffic is low What muc address would that be?
  603. me9 It was stated here, not so long ago, that the XSF makes no software for XMPP but only discusses the standards, XEPs. Or did I get this wrong? Does it also write the XEPs? I mean defining something in detail without making it would feel weird to me.
  604. moparisthebest people write the XEPs, anyone can, the XSF discusses+publishes them
  605. moparisthebest sometimes code comes before XEPs or after or sometimes never, personally I agree with you, for me code always comes first
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  608. MattJ "Rough consensus and running code" is the way
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  611. me9 Ok, thanks.
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  614. MattJ me9: the XSF is a volunteer organization. When a XEP is written there is usually someone with an interest in implementing it, and they are involved in the process (often they are the XEP's author)
  615. me9 Mhm.
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  631. phryk Where are past presentations hosted? Would be especially interested in talks giving a good high-level overview of the specs and terminology.
  632. me9 phryk: Do you mean the XMPP Office Hours?
  633. phryk For example, but if there's more than just that, I'm happy, too. ;)
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  642. phryk Ah found XSF's Youtube channel and Sam's talk.
  643. phryk 4/20 \o/
  644. me9 > phryk wrote: > Ah found XSF's Youtube channel and Sam's talk. I think Sam made that channel and puts the recorsings on there.
  645. me9 > phryk wrote: > Ah found XSF's Youtube channel and Sam's talk. I think Sam made that channel and puts the recordings on there.
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  668. phryk lol grindr is built on xmpp?
  669. Link Mauve Yes.
  670. phryk and fucking zoom? jeebus. :F
  671. jonas’ language maybe
  672. Zash Yes, maybe keep a civil language
  673. phryk I'll try.^^
  674. phryk Under protest. :P
  675. jjrh Didn't know about zoom, that's pretty nifty :)
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  677. phryk Is there a recording of the "Towards XMPP 2.0" thing?
  678. phryk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc5844dyrsc and this one is going into my future watch list :3
  679. Link Mauve phryk, Zoom posted some job offer on https://xmpp.work/ recently.
  680. Link Mauve But looking at their docs is enough to know they use XMPP.
  681. southerntofu has left
  682. phryk I never used Zoom and never looked at their docs. :P
  683. southerntofu has joined
  684. phryk I even dislike jitsi because goddamnit, just build an A/V MUC thing I can join with a normal XMPP client. :F
  685. Link Mauve phryk, that’s exactly what they have done.
  686. jonas’ "just"
  687. phryk They did?
  688. Link Mauve They do.
  689. phryk Wait, can I join jitsi meets with conversations, then?
  690. Zash Nope
  691. Link Mauve You can join any Jitsi MUC with any other client, yes.
  692. jonas’ you won't get A/V though
  693. phryk Yeah, I meant the A/V part. :P
  694. Link Mauve phryk, their main meet.jit.si server only exposes a WebSocket entrypoint, no plain TCP ones.
  695. Link Mauve phryk, get any other client to implement multi-party A/V first?
  696. jonas’ Link Mauve, though nowadays you need to send <nick/> in presence for things to work IIRC
  697. Link Mauve jonas’, yes, even back then.
  698. jonas’ back then™ it was sufficient to send <nick/> in <message/>, not in presence.
  699. Link Mauve Or you get weird auto-generated ids instead of your nick.
  700. phryk Link Mauve, Conversations doesn't implement multi-party A/V yet? I thought they did…
  701. Link Mauve phryk, nope, it doesn’t.
  702. Sam I think they're webrtc only now, last time I tried I couldn't connect anymore
  703. phryk Damn.^^
  704. Zash It doesn't and Jitsi doesn't want to cooperate
  705. jonas’ Link Mauve, I know because my bot got away with that, while injecting it into presence was so annoying that I replaced it with a prosody module :D
  706. Link Mauve The only clients I know of which implement that are Jitsi Meet, Jitsi, Empathy, and I guess Zoom.
  707. Zash Isn't everything "webrtc" these days tho?
  708. jonas’ Link Mauve, dino is on it though, or so I hear
  709. phryk Yeah figures, I guess they also didn't hand in an XEP to specify how multi-party A/V either?
  710. Link Mauve Sam, always has been WebRTC, it wouldn’t do audio/video in a browser otherwise.
  711. jonas’ and Conversations is interested to follow suit
  712. jonas’ phryk, they are based on XEPs which specify multi-party A/V :)
  713. Sam Link Mauve: the signaling is webrtc now too, I mean
  714. Link Mauve Note that Conversations, Movim, Dino and whatnot are also WebRTC, with Dino being the only one not WebRTC only.
  715. jonas’ those haven't been kept up to date though :(
  716. Link Mauve Sam, WebRTC doesn’t do signaling though.
  717. Link Mauve It leaves that out to the client.
  718. phryk jonas’, care to throw me the XEP numbers? :)
  719. Sam It does whatever you send over it.
  720. jonas’ phryk, check the list for COLIBRI
  721. jonas’ Sam, you need something to exchange the SDPs over though, before you can even exchange peer-to-peer data
  722. Link Mauve phryk, XEP-0298, XEP-0340 are the main ones.
  723. jonas’ right, Coin and COLIBRI
  724. Sam I couldn't see a websocket connection last time I tried anyways, I could see IQs in a webrtc error message.
  725. jonas’ (make sure to enable Deferred ones in the view)
  726. wladmis has joined
  727. Zash What was "WebRTC" even? Some profile of codecs and stuff? RTP over UDP over DTLS over HTTP over SCTP over DTLS over ...???
  728. phryk Dino just uses rtp directly?
  729. Link Mauve Sam, in any given room, press F12, go to the network tab, and look for the wss://meet.jit.si/xmpp-websocket?room=yourroom connection, it has HTTP status 101.
  730. Link Mauve Then in the Response tab you can see the WebSocket exchanges.
  731. Link Mauve (In Firefox, I don’t know how it is in other browsers.)
  732. Link Mauve phryk, yes, or with DTLS-SRTP to negociate the encryption, which is basically what WebRTC is.
  733. Link Mauve Plus a bunch of other extensions made mandatory.
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  737. phryk cool.
  738. phryk Now, I think, I'll finally go read that mod_e2e_policy code. :3
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  750. Zash MattJ, others interested in E2EE might be interested in an e2ee ietf mailinglist: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/JD82eEVcnGOYCYCcIjRDwiZlB6Q
  751. antranigv has left
  752. southerntofu Link Mauve, can you actually join meet.jit.si with any other client? i thought they disabled s2s?
  753. phryk southerntofu, sounds like you can join chats if your client supports xmpp over websocket.
  754. phryk so, i assume that basically means conversejs and nothing else?^^
  755. southerntofu idk phryk i dug through my browser console to find the muc address and tried to join, but it failed
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  757. Link Mauve southerntofu, yes you can, configure your client to use this WebSocket endpoint, and then join the MUC you want.
  758. southerntofu ok strange, thanks
  759. Link Mauve Most desktop clients don’t support WebSocket though, so use something like Gajim, Converse.js or such.
  760. Link Mauve I have successfully used Gajim.
  761. phryk Sounds like Gajim is the best client for debugging XMPP stuff…
  762. southerntofu good to know! like we were talking in some other chan, i'd find it great to have better desktop/mobile clients for Jitsi Meet
  763. moparisthebest <open xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-framing" is WebSocket C2S, anyone have opinions on what S2S should look like? unless I hear complaints I'm going with xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-framing-server"
  764. vanitasvitae Zash, created on 27.07? Coincidence? :O
  765. moparisthebest southerntofu, phryk I'm close to releasing a tool that'll let any normal-xmpp-speaking client connect over WebSockets FYI
  766. southerntofu a MUC<->websocketMUC gateway?
  767. phryk websockify?^^
  768. vanitasvitae webmucket
  769. Zash moparisthebest: The framing that is only really needed with clients that are limited to DOM entire-document parsers? Why would you ever keep that? Why do we still have it for c2s???
  770. moparisthebest a TCP-XMPP -> websocket-xmpp proxy
  771. moparisthebest Zash, yea, wouldn't *need* the framing I guess, on the other hand why not
  772. Link Mauve phryk, I usually use poezio, but it’s a matter of preferences really.
  773. Link Mauve It doesn’t support WebSocket though, nor WebRTC.
  774. phryk My preference UI wise is dino, tho I'd like it to be a bit mor explicit and offer more things on context…
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  776. phryk Might actually end up writing my own client, but that's one of those potential projects like me writing my own wayland composer or webframework. :P
  777. Link Mauve phryk, why not contribute to Dino?
  778. phryk I mean I am doing the latter, but I started in 2011-2012 and it's been in it's third iteration since 2015 and still isn't even at alpha^^
  779. phryk Link Mauve, because the devs made it clear they don't see eye to eye with me concerning UX.
  780. moparisthebest fork!
  781. phryk No way.
  782. moparisthebest why? certainly nicer than totally starting from scratch when you are 90% of the way there
  783. phryk No, and a whole bunch of reasons.
  784. phryk For one, I'm not gonna learn yet another language just to fork a thing when I'm already currently learning D for that wayland compositor, have to get back into Perl for a job and am about to embark on learning Lua.
  785. phryk Learning 3 languages in parallel is enough for me, thank you very much.
  786. phryk Also, because time and time again I've found that using other peoples codebases for complex stuff turns out to be a complete cl*****f*** when trying to bend it to my needs.
  787. phryk For example in my webframework I tried using pandas (python data analysis module) for over a year and everything was pain and suffering for that time.
  788. phryk When I decided to just throw the damn thing out, I was at feature parity with my old stuff in about a month and a week later had more features than before, the thing worked more generally and the serialization was more reliable while not changing its interface at all.
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  791. phryk When I decided to just throw the damn thing out, I was at feature parity with my old stuff in about a month and a week later had more features than before, the thing worked more generically and the serialization was more reliable while not changing its interface at all.
  792. moparisthebest other people's code is terrible, your code is terrible, welcome to programming
  793. phryk Nah, it's not only that.
  794. moparisthebest programmers like rewriting things :) https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/
  795. phryk *Some* other peoples code is great, amazing even. I've only ever once had a problem with flask for example when it was relatively fresh, dumped my concerns into IRC and forgot about it – only to come back to it a couple months later and found that all my issues had been fixed in ways that were better than what i proposed.
  796. norkki has joined
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  798. southerntofu and some other people's code is garbage, like ansible which has over 1000 papercuts/m² which are very counter-intuitive
  799. phryk And XMPP implementations are one of those things where I'd be *extremely* cautious. Been playing with the tought of implementing it myself, but then it's not a medium-sized domain-specific project anymore, but a multi-year one.^^
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  801. phryk The concept for an XMPP messenger I came up with some time last year was using python + kivy so I can do responsive design from the ground up and do desktop + android + iOS (+ pinephone or whatever) – basically one client to rule them all. :P
  802. phryk But honestly, I'd like it to be compiled, so currently I'd be leaning more towards D, but then I don't know of any compatible GUI toolkit being constructed with responsive design methodology built-in…
  803. phryk Plus, I'd still lose the whole "support for any and all platforms" thing…
  804. southerntofu phryk, sounds a lot like libervia.org (except python)
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  806. phryk Isn't that just an online service, not a client?
  807. southerntofu phryk, it's a client with different frontends: gtk, web, cli, tui, android...
  808. phryk oh, like mplayer but for XMPP? :D
  809. southerntofu something like that :P
  810. phryk good approach, I'd say. but I want just one frontend that' responsive.
  811. southerntofu also you may be interested in some rust GUI frameworks which support web platform, like https://github.com/hecrj/iced
  812. southerntofu or keep an eye on WASI project to reuse web technologies everywhere (except JS of course)
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  814. phryk No, no, aand no. ^^
  815. phryk And definitely no electron or anything like that.
  816. southerntofu it's not EXACTLY "anything like that" but it's the same spirit yes
  817. phryk Don't get me wrong, I've been doing web development for some 15 odd years now and I love what the web enables, but I hate how the web is used to replace anything native.
  818. southerntofu https://hacks.mozilla.org/2019/03/standardizing-wasi-a-webassembly-system-interface/ <--- not exactly sure it's the best but if web platform is on your list, then it may be the most appropriate
  819. phryk My webframework has a strict policy about no client-side scripting and no third-party requests. enforced by CSP in its core so you'd have to fork the damn thing to use that stuff. :F
  820. southerntofu phryk, i also hate it, but with a proper desktop/system integration, lightweight runtime, and distribution on proper package systems (appimage/guix/flatpak) i think i could actually like it
  821. southerntofu phryk, i really like what i hear, do you have a link? is everything handled via <form>s?
  822. phryk No, web platform is absolutely not on my list. I'll begrudgingly deploy converse on the XMPP service I'm currently building, but only for onboarding and fallback.
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  824. Link Mauve phryk, libervia already has a Kivy frontend named Cagou.
  825. southerntofu ah sorry i thought "web" was in the "one client to rules them all" :D :D
  826. Link Mauve You may also be interested in Kaidan, doing the same but with Kirigami.
  827. phryk Yes, I have an integrated custom form system that also allows building complex, stateful applications powered by encrypted server-side sessions out of webforms.
  828. Link Mauve So far I’m not impressed on desktop, but maybe with more workforce they could become good.
  829. phryk Kirigami doesn't ring a bell. I wanted to try Kaidan on my system, but it only ever segfaulted – I thought it was KDE?
  830. moparisthebest sounds useless for e2e chat though right?
  831. Link Mauve phryk, it’s one of the KDE frameworks, targetting mobile too.
  832. phryk So KDE developed a desktop<->mobile portable GUI framework independently from Qt?
  833. southerntofu phryk, also libervia project could use some help, it's pretty cool and the maintainer has an interesting vision from what i could chat with
  834. moparisthebest server-side anything without client-side scripting is useless for e2e chat I mean
  835. Link Mauve phryk, I don’t think it’s independent on it, probably building on top of it.
  836. phryk southerntofu, https://rnd.phryk.net/phryk-evil-mad-sciences-llc/poobrains/ <- the framework
  837. Link Mauve I haven’t looked much into it, so I can’t help you more with that.
  838. southerntofu moparisthebest, it's not useless, you can build encryption by making your own user agent for those HTTP requests :)
  839. phryk Mhh, Qt is complicated because I don't know if we can depend on it to stay open/maintained or if it'll diverge from the commercial one.
  840. southerntofu encryption in the browser is the worst idea already
  841. Ellenor Malik ehh
  842. phryk X.509 is the worst idea already. :P
  843. moparisthebest sure, but at least you can do it in a real language with webasm
  844. phryk Worst. Spec. Ever.
  845. jgart has left
  846. southerntofu moparisthebest, not all browsers support that, we're already trying to remove JS, without adding an even bigger attack surface :P :P
  847. jgart has joined
  848. southerntofu for me WASM is only useful for cross-platform applications, not on the actual WWW
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  850. southerntofu it brings the good stuff of the web (HTML+CSS) on the desktop via WASI, and we can keep client-side scripting outside of the browser :)
  851. jgart has left
  852. southerntofu (because of fingerprinting, sandbox escapes, rowhammer-style attacks..)
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  854. Link Mauve phryk, Libervia’s Cagou is built on Python + Kivy, have a look at it, the room is at xmpp:sat@chat.jabberfr.org?join fyi.
  855. Link Mauve southerntofu, how is wasm a bigger attack surface than JS?
  856. Zash X.509 is great because it caused this to be written: https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/x509guide.txt
  857. Link Mauve It also brings neither HTML nor CSS into wasi.
  858. southerntofu Link Mauve, doesn't have to be bigger (in fact can be smaller) but it's bigger than no client-side scripting at all
  859. southerntofu Link Mauve, no but WASI + a desktop browser engine allows good cross-platform web-based UI, that's what i meant
  860. Link Mauve How is that different from a browser?
  861. phryk Zash, It also caused this to be written: https://phryk.net/article/zomgwtftls/ :P
  862. phryk (CW: language)
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  865. southerntofu Link Mauve, it doesn't run random code from the internet to just display stuff
  866. fredyy has left
  867. southerntofu it runs an application you downloaded and vetted, hopefully through trustworthy chanels
  868. Link Mauve southerntofu, I mean, a browser engine + a wasm interpreter which has access to local stuff (wasi) is worse than a browser engine + a wasm interpreter which is restricted to HTTP resources to me.
  869. Link Mauve The former is pretty much electron.
  870. Link Mauve The latter, any standard browser.
  871. southerntofu oO? you'd rather run random code from the internet?
  872. Link Mauve I’d rather have a sandbox than none.
  873. Link Mauve Which is why I do use the web, and why I don’t use electron.
  874. southerntofu well sure you can sandbox stuff, but in my view that'd be the role of firejail/flatpak/chroot not the role of the runtime itself
  875. southerntofu also browser sandboxes are a joke, people keep on poking holes through all the time
  876. phryk > X.509 - the PDF of IT Security <- I'm still *extremely* proud of that heading. :P
  877. southerntofu personally i'd much rather run code packaged by my distro without a sandbox, than sandboxed code fro mthe internet
  878. Link Mauve Well, good for you I guess.
  879. southerntofu sure. i mean how much malware distributed through debian? vs how much malware due to browser vulns?
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  884. phryk southerntofu, full ACK on that. I especially hate the implications of client-side scripting code delivered by servers being able to be different for every request. theoretically you can target by demographics or users to only *sometimes* deploy malicious code making any audit basically meaningless.
  885. southerntofu phryk, exactly! plus i recently learnt about rowhammer.js and i was like "wow is this what we have come to?"
  886. phryk When I install packages from the distro package repo (or my own one), I have strong cryptographic assurance that it hasn't been tampered with between compilation and delivery.
  887. Zash Computers bad. Grow potatoes. 🤷️
  888. phryk Heh, yeah, I still remember that ASLR-defeating exploit that worked over javascript.
  889. phryk Exactly, run GNU Hurd and bury thyself!
  890. phryk he said, running FreeBSD and being very unGNU… ^^
  891. Alex has left
  892. southerntofu don't forget your GNU/shovel to resolve (`dig`) where this whole is taking you :) :)
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  894. phryk I often say we should have abolished UNIX and all used Lisp machines, only half-jokingly. :P
  895. southerntofu well that is an interesting paradigm! but i'm afraid we're growing offtopic here :D
  896. Sam has joined
  897. phryk Aye, was thinking the same thing.
  898. phryk To get a bit more on-topic: Is the server domain alone a valid (but somehow special) JID? If so, where is that definedD?
  899. phryk To get a bit more on-topic: Is the server domain alone a valid (but somehow special) JID? If so, where is that defined?
  900. moparisthebest All browsers support wasm, and I'd rather they only support wasm and not js
  901. Zash Yes, a bare hostname is a valid JID. XMPP-Core and/or XMPP-Addr
  902. phryk Thanks.
  903. pjn has left
  904. Zash https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#rfc.section.2.1 and https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6122.html
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