XSF Discussion - 2021-08-02


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  226. wurstsalat Hi all! Following last week's discussion around xmpp.org's site generator and its current state, I went ahead and built something. Since many problems are related to the currently used theme (compiling sass, difficult upgrade), I aimed for something simpler and easier to maintain. As Pelican needs an update as well, this would most likely involve further theme and template changes. Because of this, I went with Hugo instead. So here's what I did: switched to Hugo; created a theme which almost looks like xmpp.org, but is based on Bootstrap 5 (it's well documented); added a simple user CSS; migrated templates, e.g. processing of members.json, clients.json, xeplist; updated Makefile, Dockerfile, and MakefileDocker. The readme should be up to date. Using either `hugo server` or `make -f MakefileDocker serve` works. Tested with hugo 0.54 and 0.86. https://github.com/wurstsalat3000/xmpp.org-hugo This is almost on-par with the current xmpp.org (some meta data still needs to be adjusted), and I'm happy to put in further work.
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  234. emus wurstsalat: Great work! Thanks
  235. emus wurstsalat: do you have a rendered version, too?
  236. wurstsalat https://spacecloud.one/upload/a7fdaace-e975-4cc1-bb65-bf57d0fe57ac/screenshot.png
  237. Zash Looks good
  238. wurstsalat menu issues while resizing are gone as well :)
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  246. Ge0rG wurstsalat: it looks awesome. Did you also check the blog URLs and the RSS for consistency with the old version?
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  262. wurstsalat Ge0rG, they don't match yet, but that's a matter of configuration
  263. Ge0rG cool
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  289. emus 😍
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  293. emus jcbrand, Seve: ^
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  298. Seve That is so awesome wurstsalat !! We definitely need this, what a great job!
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  386. moparisthebest wurstsalat: excellent work!
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  389. edhelas looks good :)
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  420. moparisthebest re: POSH > As an example, the well-known URI for the hypothetical SPICE application might be "spice". funny that the SPICE protocol became real about 2 years later hehe
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  423. moparisthebest does anyone implement POSH *and* XEP-0368 in the wild? and if so, do you request /.well-known/posh/xmpp-client.json or /.well-known/posh/xmpps-client.json or both? in hindsight XEP-0368 should explicitly mention the right thing (which, I suppose should be "just use xmpp-client.json"
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  425. moparisthebest or server of course, point being xmpp- not xmpps- is likely correct
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  429. Zash I'm not sure if POSH is that great at fulfilling its purpose today. The way it has a hash of the cert means it's much easier to point at a unlimited-lifetime self-signed cert than some name-mismatched Let's Encrypt cert.
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  432. Zash A simplified variant where you just serve the name to expect might be better today.
  433. moparisthebest not wrong
  434. jonas’ ITYM DNSSEC on your SRV records?
  435. Zash CORRECT
  436. moparisthebest YES PLEASE
  437. Zash DNSSEC FTW
  438. moparisthebest but I'm not having any luck getting people to abandon their .im :P
  439. Zash Now since only something HTTPS-based has any chance of getting anywhere, can we at least transport DNSSEC signatures over DoH?
  440. moparisthebest that already works
  441. Zash Obviously not, that would have been a nice thing. Can't have nice things.
  442. moparisthebest it just transports raw DNS packets in UDP form, RRSIG etc travels over it just fine
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  445. Zash Lies! It's JSON, I've seen it!
  446. Zash πŸ˜›
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  448. Zash (I know, that's some Cloudflare alternative format?)
  449. moparisthebest google had an old format like that
  450. Zash https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/dns-over-https/json-format
  451. moparisthebest https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8484#section-6
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  453. Zash Next you'll probably try to tell met that clients actually check the DNSSEC
  454. moparisthebest >_> depends on the client? <_<
  455. moparisthebest 2 more POSH questions: 1. what about HTTP redirects? 2. with JSON-level redirects, I see no reason there couldn't be infinite layers of these like HTTP redirects, but it says: > If the source domain returns a reference, the POSH client MUST use the lower of the two "expires" values when determining how long to cache results which implies exactly 2...
  456. moparisthebest well, one redirect to something that is not a redirect I guess
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  494. wurstsalat Γ  propos redirect: Ge0rG, I updated the blog structure and it now follows current xmpp.org's blog urls. I also put redirects in place where necessary. I guess that's it for now, waiting for feedback :) https://github.com/wurstsalat3000/xmpp.org-hugo
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  496. jonas’ what do the folks with hugo-experience have to say about this? cc @ Zash ^
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  498. Zash Doomed to break in some Hugo update! DOOMED!
  499. wurstsalat Zash, for now it works with hugo ~0.50 (docker debian) and ~0.80 (arch). I didn't notice anything breaking on gajim.org, where we also use different versions. but that depends on the templates in use :)
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  501. MattJ I hadn't seen any discussion on migrating away from pelican, so this caught me by surprise. But thanks for the work!
  502. MattJ I have to say I personally would much prefer the site being based on hugo
  503. MattJ and bootstrap
  504. MattJ Selfishly because these are both things I use for many other sites already... :)
  505. MattJ I haven't had time to figure out yet another site generator, which has held me back from doing various website tasks
  506. MattJ Is the data-driven stuff ported also? The software lists for example. And will this affect Link Mauve's DOAP work in any way?
  507. wurstsalat MattJ, yes, I ported all of them (afaik)
  508. wurstsalat my guess is that it's easier to integrate now
  509. MattJ Excellent news :)
  510. wurstsalat I initially wanted to try integrating Link Mauve's work, but somehow ended up with what I got now
  511. MattJ Very exciting
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  514. jonas’ I don't have strong opinions w.r.t. pelican vs. hugo in this case, and anything which gets us away from the unmaintainable mess there would be great.
  515. jonas’ I can't judge this specific implementation though.
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  518. Sam I haven't looked at this theme, but I also do everything in Hugo and recommend it. It is impossible to learn because of terrible docs, will break with every upgrade in mostly minor/silent ways, and is generally incredibly buggy, but it's better than everything else I've tried.
  519. Sam And certainly better than an ancient version of Pelican that no one knows how to upgrade.
  520. Zash Also FAST!
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  522. Sam This is the main reason I use it ‴️
  523. wurstsalat Hugo's docs are pretty helpful though
  524. moparisthebest I use Hugo and zola in different places, Hugo has much bigger use+community though, my opinion is go for it, with massive thanks to wurstsalat for putting in the hard work (and volunteering to maintain it forever more right? muhuhahaha)
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  526. Sam In my experience it's impossible to find any useful information in hugo's docs. They're long, but hard to search and half the time don't describe anything useful (if you're building themes anyways), but YMMV
  527. Zash I wasn't aware Hugo had docs at all
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  530. wurstsalat well, I just built a theme with them :)
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  532. Zash Keeping the existing vcs history would be good tho
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  536. Sam Archive the repo, rename it to xmpp.org-pelican or something, and start a new one.
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  538. Zash Why?!
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  540. Sam Because they're entirely unrelated histories and it would be pointless to download all the pelican stuff every time for no reason.
  541. Zash I don't care about Pelican, but the history of the *content* should be kept.
  542. Sam It will be, in a separate repo. If for some reason we are ever of interest to internet archaeologists it will just require a minor skip over to another repo to see if it looks the same.
  543. Zash Hello, I'm an Internet Archaeologist with an ITeam hat. I say keep the history!
  544. wurstsalat content resides in the same folder even
  545. Ellenor Malik moparisthebest: DoX when?
  546. Zash I would not be happy trying to find out who and why some wording is the way it is, only for the trail to end with "Initial commit".
  547. moparisthebest Ellenor Malik, bit over 2 years ago https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0418.html
  548. Sam Fine, split that tree out and keep those commits. It will be a pain in the ass for whomever does the migration for no reason whatsoever though.
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  550. Sam But it's easy enough to switch repos to figure out where some wording came from.
  551. Ellenor Malik moparisthebest: I'm sorry
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  553. wurstsalat https://spacecloud.one/upload/c7eb5c0b-bd97-44ce-af34-5d24e38b6131/b4691f29-a18b-49b2-b834-80e1bbbd29cf.png
  554. wurstsalat that's the current xmpp.org repo
  555. wurstsalat (I'm all for keeping the history)
  556. Zash Should be feasible to delete the `.py` files of the old stuff, `git mv` stuff around and `git commit -m "Switch to Hugo"`
  557. Sam Possible, but now I still have to download all of the old pelican stuff every time I clone the repo.
  558. Sam What is the point of making more work for ourselves for some hypothetical maybe future person who can't be bothered to open a second tab?
  559. Sam We have a repo already, if we want to use it let's just fork it and start using it.
  560. wurstsalat but Zash is real :)
  561. Zash Why have a repo at all then!
  562. Zash Why have history?
  563. Ellenor Malik Grief
  564. Sam Obviously we should keep history, I'm not arguing to delete the old repo and purge it with fire, don't misrepresent the argument.
  565. Zash If you dont want history just do a shallow clone
  566. Ellenor Malik I need to learn java
  567. Holger Sam: To be fair it's not about the second tab no? You now have to search two histories. I.e. clone two repos, run the same command twice, …
  568. moparisthebest you don't even need to do the hard work of git mv
  569. Holger History is _the_ point of VCS and making it harder to use for no strong reason is meh.
  570. moparisthebest git add . will automagically do things for you
  571. Holger (Or is this pelican stuff gigabytes of data?)
  572. Sam It's 70mb (ish). We'd be marking a rare case (searching for something far back in the history) a tiny bit harder to make the common case (forking the repo, cloning it, and making a change) easier.
  573. Sam And just not mixing up two unrelated histories where the only thing they share is the content tree.
  574. moparisthebest `rm -rf .git` in new repo, `mv /path/to/old/repo/.git .`, `git add . && git commit -m 'hugo now'`
  575. Zash Isn't this because the repo has a ton of images and stuff?
  576. Holger "Unrelated except where they're totally not unrelated."
  577. moparisthebest git might be able to detect the templates/contents were the same history
  578. moparisthebest likely even
  579. Zash What pelican stuff are you even talking about?
  580. Zash It's like a few python config files
  581. Sam The theme and the config
  582. Sam You are probably right that the bulk of it is the same though, I was forgetting static which I assume hasn't changed
  583. Zash And the history only goes back to 2013, earlier stuff is ... lost.
  584. Zash Gone.
  585. Zash Missing!
  586. Zash All this has happened before, all of it will happen again
  587. Holger πŸ˜•
  588. Zash or is https://github.com/xsf/site-archived it?
  589. wurstsalat At least content dates back to 2007
  590. Zash Huh, 10 commits from 2013
  591. Zash Weird
  592. Sam See, we did it that way last time, let's do it again for consistency and to have a nice hard reset point.
  593. Zash I don't have anything else to say on this topic.
  594. Holger I get that others don't see as much value in history like e.g. I do, presumably because they don't use it as much. But I don't get how others actually see value in ditching history.
  595. Sam I see a lot of value in history, I don't see value in making sure it's kept in one repo.
  596. Sam No one is suggesting ditching history.
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  599. moparisthebest if you don't want history, do a shallow clone
  600. moparisthebest no reason for it not to be kept in the same git repo though
  601. Sam I do want history, I just don't want a bunch of unrelated pelican history.
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  603. moparisthebest then do a shallow clone, problem solved
  604. Sam Again, making things more difficult for the common case for no reason.
  605. Zash I never meant to start a discussion, just a friendly "when you do this for real, do it as a PR that does this in the existing site repo"
  606. moparisthebest it's literally the reason version control exists
  607. Sam Yes, and we should keep doing the reason version control exists, just as two separate histories for two separate projects.
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  609. moparisthebest if you don't want version control, just release new tar archives like postfix http://www.postfix.org/download.html
  610. moparisthebest it's not unrelated pelican history, many/most of the files are the same
  611. Sam Again, stop misrepresenting what I'm saying, this is the third time someone has suggested that I'm saying we shouldn't use VC. I thin you know that's not what I said.
  612. moparisthebest "randomly delete all history" is suggesting to not use version control
  613. moparisthebest ok, not randomly, but when you do a major refactor
  614. Sam "delete all history" is also not what I said. Ever, please reread the discussion.
  615. moparisthebest "move all history to different place for no reason upon each major refactor" ?
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  618. Holger Sam: Yes s/ditch/cripple/, sorry. `git log -S'universal messaging standard'` might not be needed often, but if you need it, it can be *super* useful. Having to clone one or more archive repos (which requires the knowledge of their existence) and re-run that command in each of those is terrible UX, for no good reason at all.
  619. Sam And having to do a shallow clone or have a ton of unrelated history is terrible UX *in the common case that happens every day* not just in a rare thing that one or two people will want to do on occasion.
  620. Holger That's the thing I don't get: How does it affect UX?
  621. Holger You're not seriously talking about those KiB of clone traffic are you?
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  623. Sam I am in part, yes.
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  625. Sam I dunno, I honestly don't care as much as this makes it sound like I do, but we have a repo, just forking it and using it seems like the obvious thing to do. On my slow internet most repos are already a pain, so it seems worth taking the opportunity for a clean break.
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  632. moparisthebest https://www.moparisthebest.com/xmpp.org.git.txt
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  634. moparisthebest git did automagically detect all the renames, so full history of content etc is kept
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  636. moparisthebest $ du -sh * 65M xmpp.org 41M xmpp.org-hugo 72M xmpp.org-hugo-with-history
  637. moparisthebest $ du -sh */.git 45M xmpp.org/.git 18M xmpp.org-hugo/.git 48M xmpp.org-hugo-with-history/.git
  638. lorddavidiii has joined
  639. moparisthebest switching to hugo only adds 3MB to the total size of the git repo, keeping history, seems plenty worth it, and not at all "unrelated history"
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  666. wurstsalat I'm guessing most changes relate to the content/data anyways?
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