XSF Discussion - 2021-08-09

  1. adiaholic has joined
  2. scorch has left
  3. Calvin has left
  4. mjk has left
  5. adiaholic has left
  6. mjk has joined
  7. Calvin has joined
  8. adiaholic has joined
  9. adiaholic has left
  10. scorch has joined
  11. adiaholic has joined
  12. neshtaxmpp has left
  13. scorch has left
  14. adiaholic has left
  15. pasdesushi has left
  16. pasdesushi has joined
  17. DebXWoody has joined
  18. DebXWoody has left
  19. scorch has joined
  20. lskdjf has left
  21. mukt2 has joined
  22. Calvin has left
  23. LNJ has left
  24. adiaholic has joined
  25. neshtaxmpp has joined
  26. adiaholic has left
  27. mukt2 has left
  28. neshtaxmpp has left
  29. mjk has left
  30. adiaholic has joined
  31. mjk has joined
  32. adiaholic has left
  33. adiaholic has joined
  34. adiaholic has left
  35. adiaholic has joined
  36. scorch has left
  37. Bung has left
  38. jgart has joined
  39. mukt2 has joined
  40. Bung has joined
  41. mukt2 has left
  42. Calvin has joined
  43. mjk has left
  44. Duncan Hart has joined
  45. mjk has joined
  46. andrey.g has left
  47. neshtaxmpp has joined
  48. mukt2 has joined
  49. neshtaxmpp has left
  50. hnsr.q has left
  51. mukt2 has left
  52. Calvin has left
  53. neshtaxmpp has joined
  54. Bung has left
  55. adiaholic has left
  56. adiaholic has joined
  57. hnsr.q has joined
  58. adiaholic has left
  59. chronosx88 has left
  60. Yagiza has joined
  61. Tobias has joined
  62. adiaholic has joined
  63. Duncan Hart has left
  64. adiaholic has left
  65. adiaholic has joined
  66. DebXWoody has joined
  67. Duncan Hart has joined
  68. wladmis has left
  69. adiaholic has left
  70. Duncan Hart has left
  71. xsf has left
  72. Duncan Hart has joined
  73. adiaholic has joined
  74. Duncan Hart has left
  75. ti_gj06 has joined
  76. scorch has joined
  77. alexbay218 has left
  78. adiaholic has left
  79. adiaholic has joined
  80. BASSGOD has left
  81. pasdesushi has left
  82. adiaholic has left
  83. adiaholic has joined
  84. karoshi has joined
  85. adiaholic has left
  86. adiaholic has joined
  87. mukt2 has joined
  88. chronosx88 has joined
  89. BASSGOD has joined
  90. adiaholic has left
  91. adiaholic has joined
  92. lorddavidiii has joined
  93. Menel has joined
  94. chronosx88 has left
  95. chronosx88 has joined
  96. mukt2 has left
  97. adiaholic has left
  98. adiaholic has joined
  99. raghavgururajan has left
  100. emus has joined
  101. goffi has joined
  102. chronosx88 has left
  103. eevvoor has joined
  104. chronosx88 has joined
  105. ti_gj06 has left
  106. adiaholic has left
  107. stp has joined
  108. adiaholic has joined
  109. raghavgururajan has joined
  110. ti_gj06 has joined
  111. govanify has left
  112. govanify has joined
  113. debacle has joined
  114. nyco has left
  115. nyco has joined
  116. Mikaela has joined
  117. Duncan Hart has joined
  118. hnsr.q has left
  119. hnsr.q has joined
  120. jcbrand has joined
  121. adiaholic has left
  122. belong has left
  123. mjk has left
  124. adiaholic has joined
  125. phryk has left
  126. adiaholic has left
  127. mjk has joined
  128. belong has joined
  129. xecks has joined
  130. hnsr.q has left
  131. hnsr.q has joined
  132. mjk has left
  133. adiaholic has joined
  134. Steve Kille has left
  135. ti_gj06 has left
  136. adiaholic has left
  137. adiaholic has joined
  138. Steve Kille has joined
  139. mig has joined
  140. jl4 has joined
  141. mig has left
  142. adiaholic has left
  143. hnsr.q has left
  144. mig has joined
  145. mig has left
  146. jl4 has left
  147. jl4 has joined
  148. adiaholic has joined
  149. mjk has joined
  150. adiaholic has left
  151. ti_gj06 has joined
  152. adiaholic has joined
  153. jl4 has left
  154. jl4 has joined
  155. jl4 has left
  156. jl4 has joined
  157. LNJ has joined
  158. pasdesushi has joined
  159. jl4 has left
  160. jl4 has joined
  161. lovetox has left
  162. mimi89999 has left
  163. hnsr.q has joined
  164. Kev has joined
  165. mukt2 has joined
  166. belong has left
  167. lovetox has joined
  168. chronosx88 has left
  169. chronosx88 has joined
  170. mimi89999 has joined
  171. jl4 has left
  172. mukt2 has left
  173. adiaholic has left
  174. scorch has left
  175. debacle has left
  176. alex11 has joined
  177. ti_gj06 has left
  178. debacle has joined
  179. scorch has joined
  180. edhelas has left
  181. edhelas has joined
  182. edhelas has left
  183. edhelas has joined
  184. edhelas has left
  185. deuill has left
  186. edhelas has joined
  187. edhelas has left
  188. phryk has joined
  189. edhelas has joined
  190. edhelas has left
  191. edhelas has joined
  192. jl4 has joined
  193. deuill has joined
  194. Duncan Hart has left
  195. jl4 has left
  196. jl4 has joined
  197. Bung has joined
  198. jl4 has left
  199. jl4 has joined
  200. belong has joined
  201. jl4 has left
  202. jl4 has joined
  203. mukt2 has joined
  204. jl4 has left
  205. jl4 has joined
  206. adiaholic has joined
  207. xutaxkamay has left
  208. mukt2 has left
  209. xutaxkamay has joined
  210. ti_gj06 has joined
  211. goffi singpolyma's solution for disco feature attachment is far better than my proposal. I plan to update my proposal if it's fine with council members which have already voter in favor of it.
  212. goffi (not now cause I'm at work)
  213. adiaholic has left
  214. jl4 has left
  215. jl4 has joined
  216. goffi voted*
  217. hnsr.q has left
  218. flow goffi, do you have a link to singpolyma's solution?
  219. goffi flow: last email on standard@
  220. flow ha, was in my spam folder :/
  221. goffi it's using disco extensions, and that is already included in caps, so I don't see any downside
  222. adiaholic has joined
  223. goffi I'll reply later on standard@, I'm at work and will be in meeting soon.
  224. lovetox has left
  225. Kev I’m not 100% convinced it *is* a better solution.
  226. flow Kev, feel free to share why :)
  227. goffi Kev: why? Could you elaborate (maybe on standard@ would be better)
  228. flow goffi, same goes for you: why do you think this solution than your proposed one?
  229. edhelas has left
  230. goffi I'll share on standard@, I'm in a meeting now.
  231. flow kk
  232. goffi probably write something tonight, after work.
  233. goffi +will
  234. edhelas has joined
  235. flow I am myself torn between those two, as they both have their ups and downs
  236. Kev I might be completely misunderstanding the problem domain, but these are basically just traditional Disco features as far as I can see, and I’m not sure why the existing mechanism of just checking for the presence of a feature in the list doesn’t work here. Whereas the new proposal involves all consumers having to then do two-level map lookups for no benefit that is immediately obvious to me (although I might be missing it).
  237. flow nothing a good API can't hide from the user
  238. Kev It seems to me that a consumer wants to know “Can I RSM with Disco” and that the normal approach of looking up the “RSM with Disco” feature works fine, and having to do “First I’ll lookup RSM, and if that’s present I’ll look up the RSM map in the attachments data form and see if that contains Disco” isn’t providing anything but additional complexity.
  239. jl4 has left
  240. jl4 has joined
  241. Kev Although as a whole, I’m not entirely convinced this is a standards track XEP, rather than just a suggestion for how other XEPs could do their naming for optional features.
  242. belong has left
  243. jl4 has left
  244. jl4 has joined
  245. jonas’ I share singpolymas concern about the opaqueness of the strings though
  246. Kev Ah, but these *are* opaque strings.
  247. Kev You’re not constructing these things arbitrarily.
  248. lskdjf has joined
  249. Kev If ‘pubsub and rsm’ is a valid combination of things, that’s going to be defined in pubsub, rsm, or a pubsub+rsm spec that will be defining the feature.
  250. hnsr.q has joined
  251. jonas’ if they were still opaque, we wouldn't need a XEP to write down how to construct the product of RSM + Disco
  252. Kev Which is why I think this should really be little more than a suggestion of how you can name such a feature when you define it.
  253. jonas’ then it'd be informational I guess
  254. Kev And that is unecessary, because they’re opaque.
  255. Kev Yes, I agree with that ‘we wouldn’t need’ - I don’t think this is really needed.
  256. jonas’ unless people really care about the genericity, in which case singpolyma's approach is saner in the sense that it doesn't violate the opacity
  257. Kev It feels to me like this is an rsm-specific sticky plaster over rsm being MTI for some specs, but not widely deployed and wanting to advertise after-the-fact who advertises it. But for that, it’d be better to be explicit in the source XEPs.
  258. lovetox has joined
  259. jonas’ well, RSM is not MTI for '30
  260. jonas’ and there's no way to retrofit a feature for RSM into '30
  261. jonas’ you could add it to RSM itself, sure
  262. adiaholic has left
  263. adiaholic has joined
  264. emus other topic: Any member working at Isode to review and confirm: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/885
  265. flow emus: you mean #950, right?
  266. belong has joined
  267. emus ups, yes
  268. emus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/950
  269. Kev jonas’: right, for disco it’d be in RSM, or in RSM+Disco.
  270. Kev I think this is really just a somewhat-bug in 59 that it says ‘just advertise rsm’, and fixing that to say “Individual protocols need to advertise RSM support themselves, unless MTI."
  271. adiaholic has left
  272. antranigv has joined
  273. flow I am not sure why the discussion about "feature attachments" seems to only revolves around RSM, we have that problem in a few other areas too, notably E2EE
  274. flow I am not sure why the discussion about "feature attachments" seems to only revolve around RSM now, we have that problem in a few other areas too, notably E2EE
  275. adiaholic has joined
  276. jonas’ -v?
  277. Kev What’s the equivalent need in E2EE, flow?
  278. flow example: if you announce support for omemo, does that mean that you can also process encrypted chatstates
  279. jonas’ flow, that would be handled by SCE, not?
  280. flow jonas’, I don't think so, no
  281. jonas’ why not?
  282. flow unless you want to imply that implementing omemo means implementing a lot of other additinal protocols
  283. jonas’ OMEMO does not specify encrypted chat states at all.
  284. flow and even then: what about future extensions?
  285. jonas’ only encrypted body.
  286. jonas’ so I don't see how a mere OMEMO feature would be related to encrypting non-body content at all.
  287. jonas’ for anything beyond that, there's stanza content encryption, and that has its own feature, I guess.
  288. flow I am not sure if you are guessing right
  289. flow due the modularity of XMPP, at the point where you can combine one protocol with another, e.g. MAM+PubSub, or OMEMO+ChatStates, you need a way to announce those as distinct features
  290. jgart has left
  291. lovetox has left
  292. Sam has left
  293. jgart has joined
  294. jl4 has left
  295. lovetox has joined
  296. goffi Kev: flow: you are right with the added complexity, I just find singpolyma cleaner, easier to read, and taking profite of XML. I don't think this can be informal though, as we need to know if the dfa is implemented to know if a missing 'http://jabber.org/protocol/rsm@http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub' means that the RSM is not implemented for pubsub, or just that dfa is not implemented.
  297. goffi also it's useful for other XEPs, order-by for instance.
  298. goffi Ok my meeting is resuming.
  299. antranigv has left
  300. Kev I didn’t say informal, I said it needs to be specified in the respective XEPs.
  301. arcxi has left
  302. adiaholic has left
  303. arcxi has joined
  304. werw0lf has left
  305. adiaholic has joined
  306. MattJ I'm inclined to agree
  307. MattJ Otherwise you could advertise interesting combinations of features without it being clearly specified what that means
  308. Kev Quite.
  309. MattJ If you say you support RSM for MUC, how does that function exactly?
  310. Kev Poorly :D
  311. MattJ 313 has semantics around the use of RSM, such as saying the RSM IDs match the archive IDs
  312. MattJ And I think this will apply to most things
  313. Kev 313 also has (or rather, used to have and is split off) semantics around 313 with 60.
  314. millesimus has left
  315. Kev You also couldn’t just advertise omemo+csn and expect it to work usefully without arbitrary element OMEMO being defined.
  316. MattJ Right
  317. MattJ So I agree that either RSM support is declared mandatory by the source XEP (if you advertise MAM support, you *must* support RSM), or you need to document it somewhere else if it's optional
  318. Kev Or not somewhere else, even if it’s optional.
  319. Kev Which I *think* is what you meant.
  320. MattJ You can't just combine arbitrary features and expect everyone to understand what that means
  321. jonas’ all very reasonable
  322. Kev Quite.
  323. MattJ Er, sure, it can be optional in a protocol indeed
  324. jl4 has joined
  325. gav has left
  326. gav has joined
  327. goffi sure nothing prevent to explain it directly in concerned XEPs, I did it in last version of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0413.html#disco . But that means that you have to repeat each time how to produce the disco feature string, instead of just linking to a XEP, and also that we have to update all concerned XEPs, and for some of them we can't bump version, so how do we know if the feature is implemented or not? With dfa, you can just say "this feature can be attached as of XEP-xxx (dfa)", and if necessary explain what that means.
  328. jonas’ "produce"
  329. jonas’ there is no way to produce an opaque string
  330. govanify has left
  331. flow I think everyone aggrees that the combination of two protocol extensions need to be declared and specified somewhere (even if it is trivial)
  332. flow I think everyone agrees that the combination of two protocol extensions need to be declared and specified somewhere (even if it is trivial)
  333. Wojtek has joined
  334. Kev > there is no way to produce an opaque string Right.
  335. Sam has joined
  336. adiaholic has left
  337. adiaholic has joined
  338. Server Stats Discoverer (traveler bot) has left
  339. Matthew has left
  340. Rixon 👁🗨 has left
  341. Half-Shot has left
  342. uhoreg has left
  343. homebeach has left
  344. Server Stats Discoverer (traveler bot) has joined
  345. Half-Shot has joined
  346. Matthew has joined
  347. Rixon 👁🗨 has joined
  348. uhoreg has joined
  349. homebeach has joined
  350. antranigv has joined
  351. Bung has left
  352. mukt2 has joined
  353. Bung has joined
  354. antranigv has left
  355. DebXWoody has left
  356. millesimus has joined
  357. adiaholic has left
  358. lovetox has left
  359. adiaholic has joined
  360. antranigv has joined
  361. jl4 has left
  362. jl4 has joined
  363. mukt2 has left
  364. mukt2 has joined
  365. arcxi has left
  366. arcxi has joined
  367. jl4 has left
  368. jl4 has joined
  369. jl4 has left
  370. jl4 has joined
  371. lovetox has joined
  372. jl4 has left
  373. jl4 has joined
  374. jl4 has left
  375. jl4 has joined
  376. jl4 has left
  377. jl4 has joined
  378. edhelas has left
  379. edhelas has joined
  380. jgart has left
  381. adiaholic has left
  382. adiaholic has joined
  383. inky has joined
  384. jl4 has left
  385. jl4 has joined
  386. mukt2 has left
  387. jl4 has left
  388. jl4 has joined
  389. ti_gj06 has left
  390. adiaholic has left
  391. jl4 has left
  392. jl4 has joined
  393. adiaholic has joined
  394. ti_gj06 has joined
  395. jl4 has left
  396. jl4 has joined
  397. jl4 has left
  398. jl4 has joined
  399. adiaholic has left
  400. adiaholic has joined
  401. andrey.g has joined
  402. werw0lf has joined
  403. jl4 has left
  404. jl4 has joined
  405. adiaholic has left
  406. adiaholic has joined
  407. jl4 has left
  408. jl4 has joined
  409. adiaholic has left
  410. wladmis has joined
  411. adiaholic has joined
  412. adiaholic has left
  413. Bung has left
  414. Bung has joined
  415. ti_gj06 has left
  416. x51 has joined
  417. Paganini has joined
  418. jl4 has left
  419. lovetox has left
  420. lovetox has joined
  421. govanify has joined
  422. govanify has left
  423. govanify has joined
  424. mukt2 has joined
  425. mjk has left
  426. Wojtek has left
  427. hnsr.q has left
  428. antranigv has left
  429. antranigv has joined
  430. mukt2 has left
  431. mjk has joined
  432. lorddavidiii has left
  433. adiaholic has joined
  434. vanitasvitae has left
  435. flow has left
  436. antranigv has left
  437. hnsr.q has joined
  438. flow has joined
  439. vanitasvitae has joined
  440. lorddavidiii has joined
  441. adiaholic has left
  442. adiaholic has joined
  443. belong has left
  444. belong has joined
  445. belong has left
  446. vanitasvitae has left
  447. jl4 has joined
  448. vanitasvitae has joined
  449. belong has joined
  450. adiaholic has left
  451. jl4 has left
  452. jl4 has joined
  453. adiaholic has joined
  454. govanify has left
  455. govanify has joined
  456. pete has joined
  457. lorddavidiii has left
  458. vanitasvitae has left
  459. vanitasvitae has joined
  460. ti_gj06 has joined
  461. jl4 has left
  462. Daniel has left
  463. Daniel has joined
  464. wladmis has left
  465. wladmis has joined
  466. pjn has joined
  467. mukt2 has joined
  468. mukt2 has left
  469. jl4 has joined
  470. vanitasvitae has left
  471. x51 has left
  472. vanitasvitae has joined
  473. adiaholic has left
  474. jgart has joined
  475. adiaholic has joined
  476. lorddavidiii has joined
  477. jl4 has left
  478. jl4 has joined
  479. winfried has left
  480. winfried has joined
  481. xsf has joined
  482. emus has left
  483. emus has joined
  484. jl4 has left
  485. jl4 has joined
  486. pjn has left
  487. jl4 has left
  488. jl4 has joined
  489. emus has left
  490. emus has joined
  491. x51 has joined
  492. Steve Kille has left
  493. jl4 has left
  494. Steve Kille has joined
  495. pasdesushi has left
  496. Tobias has left
  497. Tobias has joined
  498. arcxi has left
  499. adiaholic has left
  500. arcxi has joined
  501. papatutuwawa has joined
  502. adiaholic has joined
  503. ti_gj06 has left
  504. ti_gj06 has joined
  505. norkki has left
  506. debacle has left
  507. adiaholic has left
  508. adiaholic has joined
  509. norkki has joined
  510. norkki has left
  511. norkki has joined
  512. DebXWoody has joined
  513. norkki has left
  514. andrey.g has left
  515. norkki has joined
  516. debacle has joined
  517. guus.der.kinderen has left
  518. pasdesushi has joined
  519. sonny has left
  520. x51 has left
  521. sonny has joined
  522. debacle has left
  523. antranigv has joined
  524. lovetox has left
  525. debacle has joined
  526. x51 has joined
  527. jl4 has joined
  528. adiaholic has left
  529. adiaholic has joined
  530. hnsr.q has left
  531. lovetox has joined
  532. pasdesushi has left
  533. papatutuwawa has left
  534. pjn has joined
  535. Yagiza has left
  536. upgrade has joined
  537. upgrade has left
  538. upgrade has joined
  539. upgrade has left
  540. adiaholic has left
  541. jl4 has left
  542. jl4 has joined
  543. jl4 has left
  544. jl4 has joined
  545. ti_gj06 has left
  546. adiaholic has joined
  547. bung has joined
  548. adiaholic has left
  549. jl4 has left
  550. adiaholic has joined
  551. x51 has left
  552. belong has left
  553. adiaholic has left
  554. adiaholic has joined
  555. bung has left
  556. adiaholic has left
  557. bung has joined
  558. bung has left
  559. pjn has left
  560. adiaholic has joined
  561. werdan has joined
  562. adiaholic has left
  563. adiaholic has joined
  564. pasdesushi has joined
  565. adiaholic has left
  566. mjk has left
  567. alacer has joined
  568. alacer has left
  569. mjk has joined
  570. jl4 has joined
  571. adiaholic has joined
  572. werdan has left
  573. jl4 has left
  574. jl4 has joined
  575. adiaholic has left
  576. alacer has joined
  577. georgeorwell has left
  578. paul has left
  579. jl4 has left
  580. jl4 has joined
  581. deuill has left
  582. jl4 has left
  583. jl4 has joined
  584. ti_gj06 has joined
  585. adiaholic has joined
  586. alacer has left
  587. millesimus has left
  588. millesimus has joined
  589. Tobias has left
  590. deuill has joined
  591. adiaholic has left
  592. karoshi has left
  593. goffi has left
  594. flow has left
  595. eevvoor has left
  596. jcbrand has left
  597. adiaholic has joined
  598. Menel has left
  599. vanitasvitae has left
  600. belong has joined
  601. adiaholic has left
  602. deuill has left
  603. adiaholic has joined
  604. jl4 has left
  605. jl4 has joined
  606. deuill has joined
  607. paul has joined
  608. jl4 has left
  609. jl4 has joined
  610. adiaholic has left
  611. chronosx88 has left
  612. Alex has left
  613. Kev has left
  614. Kev has joined
  615. adiaholic has joined
  616. chronosx88 has joined
  617. hnsr.q has joined
  618. xecks has left
  619. adiaholic has left
  620. hnsr.q has left
  621. debacle has left
  622. adiaholic has joined
  623. LNJ has left
  624. edhelas has left
  625. adiaholic has left
  626. edhelas has joined
  627. edhelas has left
  628. edhelas has joined
  629. chronosx88 has left
  630. chronosx88 has joined
  631. mjk has left
  632. hnsr.q has joined
  633. adiaholic has joined
  634. jl4 has left
  635. jl4 has joined
  636. hnsr.q has left
  637. jgart has left
  638. adiaholic has left
  639. antranigv has left
  640. antranigv has joined
  641. Calvin has joined
  642. pete has left
  643. antranigv has left
  644. vanitasvitae has joined
  645. ti_gj06 has left
  646. hnsr.q has joined
  647. jl4 has left
  648. mjk has joined
  649. jl4 has joined
  650. jl4 has left
  651. jl4 has joined
  652. jl4 has left
  653. jl4 has joined
  654. jl4 has left
  655. jl4 has joined
  656. jl4 has left
  657. jl4 has joined
  658. mjk has left
  659. mjk has joined
  660. jl4 has left
  661. jl4 has joined
  662. jl4 has left
  663. jl4 has joined
  664. mjk has left
  665. jl4 has left
  666. jl4 has joined
  667. jl4 has left
  668. jl4 has joined
  669. jl4 has left
  670. jl4 has joined
  671. alex11 has left
  672. mjk has joined
  673. jl4 has left
  674. jl4 has joined
  675. Duncan Hart has joined
  676. jl4 has left
  677. jl4 has joined
  678. hnsr.q has left
  679. jl4 has left
  680. jl4 has joined
  681. mjk has left
  682. jl4 has left
  683. jl4 has joined
  684. jl4 has left
  685. jl4 has joined
  686. jl4 has left
  687. jl4 has joined
  688. jl4 has left
  689. jl4 has joined
  690. jl4 has left
  691. jl4 has joined
  692. hnsr.q has joined
  693. jl4 has left
  694. jl4 has joined
  695. mjk has joined
  696. jl4 has left
  697. jl4 has joined
  698. jl4 has left
  699. emus has left
  700. mjk has left
  701. alexbay218 has joined