XSF Discussion - 2021-09-03

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  270. southerntofu following a comment on HN, someone suggested that the entire protocol be versioned to allow easier guessing of features https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28393085
  271. southerntofu maybe that's a bit extreme, but advertising Compliance Suite version as part of disco could be an idea?
  272. southerntofu so that your server/client could inform you that a newer client/server may provide a better experience, maybe?
  273. MattJ I don't see any gains to be had from that, only worse interop and pointlessly nagging users
  274. MattJ We already have disco on a feature-by-feature basis, so there's no need for a "global" one (i.e. advertise compliance suites)
  275. Maranda Erm but compliance suite is just an informative documento even not an actual feature, that's misleading even
  276. Maranda Erm but compliance suite is just an informative documento even not an actual feature, that's misleading
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  281. southerntofu fair enough :)
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  297. wurstsalat Displaying Compliance Suites on xmpp.org's Software page is already controversial :)
  298. Zash I thought it was just not completed and merged yet
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  300. Ge0rG Yeah, it would be a good addition.
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  302. Ge0rG I think the controversy was about client developers being inclined to lie about it, and nobody from the XSF being able to prove
  303. Ge0rG (or disprove)
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  339. southerntofu isn't there a compliance checker like compliance.conversations.im for Complaince Suites(yet)?
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  341. jonas’ what would it check?
  342. southerntofu whether all specs mentioned in the compliance suite are implemented correctly by a specific client/server
  343. jonas’ ahahahhaha
  344. jonas’ *ahem*
  345. jonas’ no
  346. jonas’ testing servers is hard, testing clients is harder.
  347. Zash Testing the tester isn't trivial either
  348. moparisthebest a tool to check any server/client for correct implementation would be great
  349. jonas’ note that compliance.c.im also does not what you say.
  350. southerntofu i'm a big fan of specification-driven development in principle: https://ttm.sh/2l3.md
  351. moparisthebest but, likely impossible
  352. jonas’ too long and badly typeset, didn't raed.
  353. MattJ > moparisthebest> a tool to check any server/client for correct implementation would be great I've never heard anyone say this before /s
  354. jonas’ moparisthebest, well, the aioxmpp test suite has found a surprising amount of bugs ;)
  355. jonas’ ... in servers.
  356. southerntofu Zash, yes but the tester is a single implementation that compares others, so if it raises questionable results about clients which appear to work, it's easy to detect and fix
  357. MattJ "easy" - off you go ;)
  358. southerntofu i think we've had this discussion in the past but i'd be curious to integrate Scansion in markdown codeblocks to be part of the specs (although it's only for server testing so far, right?)
  359. southerntofu MattJ, having a single tester impl say "all clients are broken" is easier to detect/debug than random client/server combinations acting up :P (arguably)
  360. jonas’ kindof like doctests
  361. Zash The easy way is to look at the DOAP and hope it's not a pack of blatant lies
  362. southerntofu jonas’, yeah exactly i love doctests from python/rust and i'd be curious how it could be useful for a protocol spec
  363. MattJ southerntofu, if you think it's easy, I encourage you to try it. It's a lot of work, and complicated.
  364. Zash `echo echo BROKEN > compliance-checker.sh`
  365. jonas’ southerntofu, so, markdown isn't really a format used for XMPP specs to start with ...
  366. MattJ The Editor is speaking
  367. southerntofu jonas’, could be XML for all i care, i personally like markdown :)
  368. jonas’ I personally too like markdown.
  369. MattJ Meanwhile everyone is using Markdown
  370. jonas’ one day we should migrate XEPs to use markdown
  371. jonas’ it would make a lot of things easier.
  372. jonas’ and more accessible.
  373. jonas’ it would also make other things harder.
  374. jonas’ anyway
  375. jonas’ different sujbect
  376. jonas’ southerntofu, so, actually, I really like your idea
  377. Zash XMPP flavored markdown
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  380. jonas’ the doctest-style tests in XMPP specs.
  381. Zash Whatnow?
  382. jonas’ it would be interesting to see something like that for a simple spec like '30 and a non-trivial spec like '45
  383. moparisthebest yea they should be written in XEP-0393 instead
  384. jonas’ /kickban moparisthebest
  385. jonas’ servers are easy to automate
  386. jonas’ clients... not so much
  387. southerntofu jonas’, i mention multiple (de)serialization formats in "# Other spectest-compliant formats" on that draft blogpost
  388. jonas’ southerntofu, as I said ... "too long and badly typeset, didn't read."
  389. southerntofu XEP-compliant XML could be one of those
  390. Zash what jonas’ said
  391. Zash It's Friday, not Readlongmarkdownonbacklitscreenday
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  393. jonas’ but in the end, the format is irrelevant
  394. jonas’ the hard part is actually running the tests
  395. jonas’ against servers it's doable
  396. jonas’ but clients... no clue
  397. Zash e.g. see scansion
  398. southerntofu Zash, TLDR
  399. jonas’ exactly, scansion
  400. southerntofu > As we've seen in the previous articles, open standards and associated test suites are key to achieving expected results, and therefore benefit the whole ecosystem. But often, these two concerns are treated as separate problems to deal with in entirely different ways. As a result, some specifications are so long and complex that coming up with a test suite is a challenge (XMPP/ActivityPub), while other systems are backed by a collection of unspecified test suites that are hard to comprehend (Ansible).
  401. jonas’ or aioxmpp test suite
  402. southerntofu > Could we get the best of both worlds by treating specification and compliance (testing) as a single problem? This hypothetical approach i call specification-driven development, whereby a specification document is intended both for human and machine consumption. In that case, the specification contains a written presentation of concepts, in addition to a machine-readable test suite that follows a certain format to programmatically ensure that the concepts and behavior described in the specification are implemented properly. This format for specifications is called a spectest document. (TODO: maybe specdoc ?)
  403. jonas’ needs more paragraphs
  404. moparisthebest if you can write a specification such that a program can create tests out of it, then a program could also just implement it correctly for you instead ?
  405. moparisthebest no programmer needed
  406. jonas’ moparisthebest, see also IDL
  407. southerntofu moparisthebest, the tests would be handcrafted *as part of the spec*
  408. Zash Accept: application/epub+zip delivered onto my e-ink device (it has wifi disabled). Good luck!
  409. jonas’ southerntofu, any practical idea on how to test clients though?
  410. moparisthebest I don't actually think that helps in 99% of cases southerntofu
  411. jonas’ moparisthebest, I think it does.
  412. jonas’ in many ways
  413. southerntofu jonas’, i imagine a client could be intrsumented by running in a "test mode" where it exposes a well-known API (over a socket or something) instructing it to react in a certain manner?
  414. jonas’ imagine all examples in a XEP could actually be run against servers.
  415. moparisthebest the specs are usually clear, and it's easy to test the things in the XEP
  416. jonas’ southerntofu, ideally without changing the code of existing clients
  417. moparisthebest that doesn't help with the 99999 things that actually happen in practice
  418. jonas’ moparisthebest, I disagree.
  419. Zash `gajim-control` you say?
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  421. Wojtek > a tool to check any server/client for correct implementation would be great uhm at Tigase we have https://github.com/tigase/tigase-tts-ng (and older https://github.com/tigase/tigase-testsuite) which do just that; probably could be nice to generalise it and make available as a service...
  422. moparisthebest don't get me wrong, it'd be very helpful, a great start, but you'd still miss a lot of things
  423. Wojtek I know :-)
  424. southerntofu moparisthebest, if each XEP contained machine tests in addition to human formats, it would help for two things: it would help to clear ambiguities before reaching implementation stage (because if the test contradits human text then somebody will notice earlier and raise issues) and it would help somewhat-correct implementation because you could just do ./xeptest XEP-0030.xml -- myclient --test-mode
  425. jonas’ moparisthebest, of course, it will never be perfect, but perfect is the enemy of good.
  426. southerntofu Zash, i'm not aware of gajim-control
  427. southerntofu jonas’, without changing client code i don't think is possible? would be much harder to emulate user interactions on every possible client :) :)
  428. moparisthebest we already have "examples are not the spec" surely "tests are not the spec" would be that way too, so I don't think it helps with ambiguities
  429. jonas’ moparisthebest, but tests would actually be normative
  430. southerntofu but maybe the test protocol can be simple enough for all clients to implement?
  431. southerntofu jonas’, yes exactly, no ambiguity in there :)
  432. jonas’ southerntofu, I have no clue how that protocol would look like
  433. jonas’ except if you accidentally XMPP the protocol.
  434. jonas’ but that's kind of not the goal
  435. jonas’ like, if you instruct a client to add a roster item .... and such ... you end up respecifying XMPP
  436. jonas’ to instruct a client to do XMPP
  437. southerntofu yeah but on a higher-level i guess
  438. jonas’ maybe, but only slightly
  439. jonas’ it needs to be pretty fine grained if you want to do things like testing individual MUC interactions
  440. southerntofu and in fact maybe it can serve as guidelines for library UX? so that if the specs are well-written you could just follow the test API and that would be your client library?
  441. moparisthebest I'm not even aware of tools to do non-browser UI testing
  442. jonas’ ("grant voice to user", "kick user", "unban user"...)
  443. jonas’ moparisthebest, they exist
  444. jonas’ they typically use a11y APIs
  445. moparisthebest I'm sure they do, just never had the opportunity I guess :)
  446. southerntofu i mean i guess all clients/libraries have a "mute" or "ban" function, maybe standardizing that could be part of the answer?
  447. southerntofu then it's just a matter of serializing/deserializing instructions to that "API"
  448. jonas’ southerntofu, I don't see where that could be standardized really
  449. jonas’ especially across languages.
  450. jonas’ and UI paradigms
  451. jonas’ but that standardisation ... it would be like XMPP itself.
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  453. southerntofu then we could have per-XEP testing interface where we expect you to expose some glue to your client code for specific functions?
  454. moparisthebest what are you actually after testing though
  455. jonas’ southerntofu, same thing really
  456. moparisthebest the client author doesn't want to implement a whole other xmpp protocol to see if his "join muc" works, he wants to click "join muc" and see if that works
  457. southerntofu jonas’, well per-spec is much easier to implement/maintain/test
  458. jonas’ southerntofu, doesn't solve the core issue though
  459. southerntofu and like i said if you're developing a client/library from scratch, it can serve as implementation guideline for making a good library API
  460. jonas’ it is another XMPP-ish thing besides XMPP
  461. southerntofu yup
  462. jonas’ for libraries, the story is slightly different and we are slowly venturing toward the lands of IDLs
  463. southerntofu IDLs?
  464. jonas’ interface description languages
  465. jonas’ ("interface" as in API)
  466. southerntofu ah cool that's sort of what i was talking about :P
  467. jonas’ like OpenGL publishing an XML file where the entire API is contained so that you can auto-generate headers for any language
  468. jonas’ but that approach only really works (a) in one single lagnuage/paradigm or (b) for really low-level things
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  471. southerntofu yeah it wouldn't work for UI testing most likely, but personally i'm fine with that
  472. moparisthebest then you just have library testing I guess
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  474. southerntofu if we reach server & library testing that'd already be a huge milestone :)
  475. southerntofu anyway we'll see, when i find a complete week to hack on something and see where it goes
  476. jonas’ southerntofu, feel free to loop me (the XEP Editor) in.
  477. southerntofu can scansion support multiple clients on different servers to keep S2S?
  478. southerntofu to test s2S*
  479. Zash I know of no reason why it couldn't
  480. southerntofu but does it already?
  481. southerntofu like can i run two scansion instances with the same "scansion script" where one is client A and one is cliebt B and they're aware of each other's address? and the test can be run on two accounts on the same server (simple e2e test) or across servers (account for s2s bugs)?
  482. southerntofu fro my reading of the homepage it does but i'd like to be sure: https://matthewwild.co.uk/projects/scansion/
  483. Sam Tried to catch up on the context, but for my library I wrote https://pkg.go.dev/mellium.im/xmpp/internal/integration which is a framework for spinning up servers and clients and linking them up to test against. Works very well for my own integration tests (except for ejabberd which never shuts down cleanly for some reason, so right now it's only running tests that require a server against prosody) and could in theory be adapted to work for other languages and the like and be more stand alone.
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  487. Zash southerntofu, one scansion script can describe multiple clients, which could likely connect to different servers, but that's not something I've tested
  488. Zash Many of the ones we use to test Prosody involve multiple actors interacting
  489. southerntofu ok i'll make sure to test that then :)
  490. Zash Lots of examples in https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/file/tip/spec/scansion/
  491. Zash I imagine changing `jid: juliet@localhost` to @example.com etc would work.
  492. southerntofu yeah that was the gist of my question :)
  493. southerntofu so it looks like there's at least three different testing frameworks for XMPP lcients/servers (tigase/mellium/scansion)
  494. Zash Time to make a testing framework compliance tester!
  495. southerntofu would be interesting to see how they compare and whether they could be reunited as part of a single spec
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  497. southerntofu Zash, maybe not that far haha :P
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  499. southerntofu i mean tigase and mellium appear (from a quick look) to be both object oriented testing APIs.. if they could have the same interface it *could* be easier to maintain a single testing library with bindings to a bunch of supported languages)
  500. Zash Write a scansion script parser in Go and Java?
  501. southerntofu yeah wy not, or in any language with C FFI, or..
  502. southerntofu i don't know what the best answer is, but i know there's possibilities to explore
  503. MattJ The problem is that most libraries try to abstract the protocol, which is different to testing the protocol. You'll only test that the library author's model and assumptions hold true.
  504. MattJ That's why Scansion is low-level (but easy), but also tests are typically server-dependent.
  505. southerntofu why would test be server-dependent? because the server would return more information if it supports further extensions?
  506. southerntofu or because the fields in a stanza would not be serialized in the same order?
  507. MattJ Scansion ignores additional elements (in unexpected namespaces) by default
  508. MattJ Also element order in most cases iirc (there are some different checking modes)
  509. MattJ But there are multiple ways to implement something and be compliant with the spec in many places
  510. MattJ Every time you read "MAY" in a spec, that's a gain for implementers and a pain for testers :)
  511. southerntofu MattJ, surely there's a *finite* number of ways to comply with the spec, right? if so "OR Juliet receives" (boolean logic) could do the trick?
  512. Zash You could copy the script and have one for each possibility. The challenge is not collapsing into a black hole.
  513. MattJ The finite possibilities quickly add up
  514. MattJ I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's a lot of work
  515. southerntofu (although like you said scansion as it is would be ill-suited to test clients/libraries, maybe a unified test API would be more suited in that case)
  516. MattJ I'm also not saying it's not valuable work, but nobody is motivated to do it after they've already implemented (to their knowledge) a correct XMPP implementation
  517. southerntofu MattJ, i do understand the possibility of that in an extensible protoco but in regards to XMPP i don't see, do you have any practical example that comes to mind?
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  520. southerntofu i've found so far that specs were rather complete or ambiguous but never offered infinite interpretations
  521. MattJ I'm not claiming any offer infinite interpretations
  522. southerntofu (contrary to ActivityPub/Microformats for instance)
  523. MattJ (or that none do)
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  525. MattJ I encourage you to just try it if you're interested in solving this problem
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  528. southerntofu sure, i'll certainly try with scansion to test multiple servers
  529. southerntofu in the meantime i'd be curious how Wojtek and Sam see each other's testing framework and whether they could imagine to cooperate in a hypothetical future on a single testing API/suite
  530. moparisthebest It might be better to have different testing implementations
  531. MattJ I think it's more valuable to have multiple, especially if real implementations are built on the same libraries
  532. southerntofu well then cooperate on a test format that could be implemented by both testing systems?
  533. MattJ A test output format would be nice, to say "I tested XEP-nnnn support, it passed"
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  535. Zash Aren't there a pile of such formats?
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  538. goffi Hey there, I've just been hit by https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/3.9.html#urllib-parse (Python 3.9 URL parsing does not recognise ";" anymore as a separator, following W3C changes). As we use ";" as a separator in XMPP URIs, that smells like a more general issue for us
  539. Ge0rG I've had to work around the Android Java URI parser not recognizing that some years ago already.
  540. goffi python has a new parameter, so the fix should be easy there
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  547. Zash Mmmm, URI vs URL fun.
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  553. moparisthebest More like URFd
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  556. emus Ge0rG, southerntofu, Zash, wurstsalat: but we host the xmpp providers list, which tries to reference each entry
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