XSF Discussion - 2021-09-08

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  166. MattJ Google and Cisco at least used to participate
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  260. Kev We certainly should care about those implementations, yes. We can’t write specs and then not care about breaking them in spec updates just because we didn’t know about them.
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  262. dwd At Pando we (deliberately) stored groupchat messages in the personal archive for resynchronization etc. However, these weren't XEP-0045, but ESL's "Muclight", so there weren't any "holes" in that archive.
  263. jonas’ Kev, but should we care about implementations which don't participate in the standards process?
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  265. dwd jonas’, I would argue we're unlikely to get them to use XMPP at all if it's unstable for their purposes.
  266. dwd jonas’, So hardly likely to help them decide to participate.
  267. Ge0rG Kev, dwd: I've written down my questions on list and I'd really appreciate your input
  268. dwd Ge0rG, For XEP-0313? OK.
  269. Kev jonas’: Yes, we absolutely should. This isn’t an old boys club where we write specs only for ourselves.
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  272. jonas’ dwd, what's the benefit for XMPP? implementations which use XMPP and then don't contribute to the standards process or anything, what does that give XMPP as a whole?
  273. Kev jonas’: Implementations.
  274. jonas’ what's the benefit of that?
  275. Kev What’s the point of a protocol without implementations?
  276. Ge0rG I'm losing track of the meta discussion
  277. jonas’ Kev, well, fair enough I guess
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  284. dwd jonas’, It seems to me we're more likely to see an increase in active participation in the community with more usage of the protocols. Equally, if we focus solely on existing participants and ignore the wider usage, I don't see that we can have any outcome bu a reduction in usage, and therefore participation.
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  286. jonas’ I guess the question is: what is the likelihood that any current longstanding non-participant becomes a participant in the future? vs. the likelihood that XMPP loses ever more relevance because the wide-spread public use-cases cannot be covered.
  287. Kev I think that’s a false dichotomy.
  288. jonas’ or can only be covered by documents having an ugly EXPERIMENTAL tag slapped all over them because we cannot reach consensus.
  289. Kev There’s a world of difference between not making unflagged deliberately breaking changes because we need those implementations they break ‘not ones we care about’ and not addressing use cases.
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  292. Kev There’s a world of difference between making unflagged deliberately breaking changes because we need those implementations they break ‘not ones we care about’ and not addressing use cases.
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  300. Kev There’s a world of difference between making unflagged deliberately breaking changes because we deem those implementations they break ‘not ones we care about’ and not addressing use cases.
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  302. jonas’ not having MAM stable is arguably "not addressing a use case"
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  306. dwd jonas’, Well, yes, the experimental and lack of progress is certainly a problem.
  307. Kev Again, I think it’s a false dichotomy to say that the only two options are “stop it being stable” and “mark existing compliant implementations non-compliant (and therefore expect them not to interop)”.
  308. jonas’ Kev, enlighten me how to fix it other than that :)
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  311. Kev Not introduce “SHOULD NOT” (or worse MUST NOT) on text that previously was SHOULD.
  312. Kev Job done.
  313. jonas’ It seems that at least one council member is not going to let that pass though.
  314. jonas’ (for good reasons for the wide-spread public usecases if you'd ask me)
  315. Kev Into meetings, AFK a few hours.
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  317. jonas’ same, gl
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  322. Ge0rG I'm reading that as "Experimental is Implicit Stable, because it might have implementations that we don't know about and that would break if we change it"
  323. Ge0rG And it's tangentially related to "we must not bump versions because the implementation ecosystem is so slow that we would fragment it"
  324. dwd Ge0rG, Well, yes and no. We protect deployed use of Experimental by namespace versioning, and that allows for parallel deployment of different versions of unstable protocols.
  325. jonas’ (which is an implementation burden much of the IM ecosystem cannot bear)
  326. dwd Ge0rG, But protocols that end up "stuck" in Experimental end up de-facto Stable. When de-facto is not reflected by the standards process it's not the de-facto that's wrong.
  327. jonas’ having a SHOULD written there when there are hundreds of deployments which do not honour it feels wrong though.
  328. Ge0rG dwd: many implementations struggle with fully implementing a single version of a given protocol, and we have almost no visibility into which versions are supported where
  329. dwd jonas’, That, too.
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  331. dwd Ge0rG, And also that.
  332. Ge0rG I remember a discussion with a developer of a new client who was confused by that exact SHOULD, and I had to explain that the known server implementations don't even honor it.
  333. dwd Ge0rG, At least some that presumably you've heard of have it as an option. MongooseIM, for example.
  334. dwd Ge0rG, I have replied to your note with a possible path forward, anyway.
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  336. Ge0rG dwd: great, thanks!
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  342. Kev dwd: Presumably you also want a feature advertised saying that such an option is present, yes?
  343. dwd Kev, That'd be sensible, yes.
  344. Kev I might make that change now while I have two minutes then, if it unblocks this.
  345. Ge0rG I'm even more confused now.
  346. Ge0rG dwd: I've responded on list now.
  347. Kev About what? Dave suggested adding a flag for whether you want gc results for your query or not. Absent that flag both behaviours are valid, meaning existing implementations that either do what’s written or don’t include them are all compliant, and that going forward we can understand what we’ll receive, which seems to address your concern.
  348. Ge0rG I was implicitly assuming that type=groupchat equals MUC, and I think this is the cause of most of the confusion and debate.
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  352. Ge0rG Kev: I don't like it, because not having a default value is bad protocol, but I'm willing to take it as the lesser evil compared to namespace-bumping or eternal-experimental. Something is going to die in me when I +0 or +1 that.
  353. Ge0rG However, I'm still unconvinced that storing MUC history in the personal archive and returning it without an explicit query is a good idea.
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  355. Kev The shattering of your immortal soul aside, if I put some security considerations in, and add text/query parameter/disco features along Dave’s lines, you’ll withdraw your imminent -1?
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  358. Ge0rG Kev: is it a matter of rushing it through the Council today, or can we maybe have a few more days of pondering about a less unreasonable alternative?
  359. Kev I don’t particularly care about Experimental->Draft^h^h^h^h^hStable for this at the moment, but I know lots of other people do.
  360. Kev Ge0rG: I leave when Council do stuff up to Council, I just want to remove your current objections.
  361. Ge0rG This is a discussion that I wish we would have had during the LC.
  362. Ge0rG Kev: I think that it would be better to exchange a few more mails and get me to a solid +1 instead of getting me to a +0 today with a solution that's cementing a bad protocol design.
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  364. Kev If your idea of a solid +1 is one in which it is forbidden to send groupchat results, as some current deployments do, without bumping namespaces, I don’t think we can achieve that while maintaining the (implicit?) promise that when we make breaking changes to Experimental XEPs we do something with namespaces or features such that compliant deployments don’t become non-compliant.
  365. Ge0rG Kev: but it'd be great if you could suggest a security section mentioning that a client MUST filter by query-id and by from address
  366. Ge0rG oh wait, that would be a breaking change as well.
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  368. Kev FWIW, it’s perfectly fine for a client to only filter on from address if it serialises queries, from a security considerations perspective.
  369. Ge0rG Kev: from my reading of the current 0313 text, a client can not rely on a server actually delivering type=groupchat results.
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  371. Ge0rG This is of course different with servers that will nevertheless send those.
  372. Kev > Kev: from my reading of the current 0313 text, a client can not rely on a server actually delivering type=groupchat results. Indeed, but it must be able to cope with receiving them. If the XEP were changed to say “You won’t get them”, servers that do send them could break clients that know they won’t receive them.
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  374. Ge0rG Kev: right.
  375. Ge0rG Can we add a feature and a query element with a default value and have a note that the default is undefined when the feature is not present?
  376. Ge0rG ie. no feature -> unknown; feature -> default=no-groupchat?
  377. Kev <p>Servers that understand the 'include-groupchat' field MUST advertise the 'urn:xmpp:mam:2#gc-field' (even if they cannot return groupchat messages), and servers that understand the 'include-groupchat' field and store groupchat messages in the user's archive must advertise the 'urn:xmpp:mam:2#groupchat-available' feature</p>
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  379. Kev That’s what I propose for disco.
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  381. Kev So that means if you don’t store gc, you advertise #gc-field. If you store gc you advertise #gc-field and #gc-available.
  382. Ge0rG Kev: nitpick: rename the feature to `urn:xmpp:mam:2#groupchat-field` or maybe `urn:xmpp:mam:2#include-groupchat`
  383. Kev I did the opposite and changed both to gc.
  384. Ge0rG to make it better searchable for "groupchat"
  385. Ge0rG 👍
  386. Kev But I can revert, this is not a death hill.
  387. Ge0rG I have a slight bias towards `groupchat` and a strong bias towards consistency
  388. Ge0rG now how will that field be used? should it always be present in the query, with a boolean value for returning / not returning?
  389. Kev So if I understand your request, when #groupchat-field is advertised by the server, you’re saying that clients that don’t specify the gc field shouldn’t get groupchat?
  390. Ge0rG Kev: yes
  391. Kev I know of deployments where that would be unfortunate.
  392. Ge0rG it sounds like a breaking change when you say it
  393. Kev Where if the server was upgraded to a new MAM, but the client wasn’t, behaviour would change in an unfortunate way.
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  396. Kev I think it would be better to go with Dave’s suggestion and leave the behaviour undefined in the face of not specifying the field, because then servers can leave their existing behaviour in place for undefined, and existing deployments don’t change behaviour on upgrade.
  397. Ge0rG I dislike it a bit less now.
  398. Kev (I do agree that it is at best unsatisfying to have optional options that don’t have defaults, but …)
  399. Ge0rG The alternative route would require a namespace bump *and* a feature
  400. Kev I think Dave’s proposal is the least bad option we’ve got.
  401. Kev Given where we are.
  402. Ge0rG I still don't see how returning semi-random blocks of MUC history is of any use.
  403. Kev I think that’s because you’re viewing MUC history in the user archive as being ‘everything that happened’ and I view it as ‘everything the user received’.
  404. Ge0rG But maybe you can elaborate that and the other questions on-list as well :)
  405. Ge0rG Kev: even in the latter case it's going to be weird.
  406. Kev My primary use of MAM is searching for something that I know I saw somewhere, but I can’t remember the details of, nor whether it was in one of the team rooms or in a direct message.
  407. Ge0rG Should it _also_ include the history that the client already received via live MUC traffic?
  408. Ge0rG Should a client use MAM IDs from MUC messages for an `after-id` query?
  409. Kev Yes, I agree there is weirdness.
  410. Ge0rG The existing implementations must have handled that weirdness in some way, right?
  411. Ge0rG Kev: which protocol are you using for searching?
  412. Kev 313 with a search field in the data form.
  413. Ge0rG The `urn:example:xmpp:free-text-search` one? ;)
  414. Kev I think we predate that, but I don’t recall TBH.
  415. Ge0rG I suppose that having a "free text search" field standardized in 313 would be of value as well.
  416. Ge0rG I'd argue that returning MUC results in queries _by default_ is a bad idea, but I can see how it makes sense for text-search queries. But those are only adding another option to the form, so making that an indicator to change the default response is weird as well.
  417. Kev <p>A client MUST verify the source of MAM query results against an open query (i.e. checking the stanza 'from' matches the entity that was queried) and MUST either ignore or otherwise disregard (maybe with a warning to the user) unsolicited results. This is to avoid the situation where a malicious entity sends MAM results while the client is querying a different entity and the client processes the malicious results as if they were part of the legitimate results.</p>
  418. Kev That sort of thing is what you care about, right Ge0rG?
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  420. Kev "Additionally, if the client has multiple queries in flight at once, it MUST also check that the query ID for a result matches that of an open query for that entity."
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  422. Ge0rG Kev: you make it sound like you may only receive MAM results while at least one query is running
  423. Ge0rG I think that "unsolicited MAM results" would be the most probable incarnation of the attack, because they don't rely on race conditions
  424. Ge0rG So it might be good to consolidate the pre-conditions (unsolicited, wrong from, wrong query-id) first, and then tell to ignore / warn the user?
  425. Ge0rG and how are we going to introduce that MUST without namespace-bumping? This might even break existing implementations, if those are susceptible to impersonation attacks.
  426. Kev > Kev: you make it sound like you may only receive MAM results while at least one query is running That’s right, isn’t it? If you receive results outside a query, you must drop them.
  427. Kev > and how are we going to introduce that MUST without namespace-bumping? This might even break existing implementations, if those are susceptible to impersonation attacks. I think you’re being facetious here, but just in case, I don’t think closing this particular security vulnerability would be a reason to namespace bump.
  428. Kev Since anyone vulnerable to such an attack is already broken, whether by behaviour or spec.
  429. Ge0rG > If you receive results outside a query, you must drop them. This may sound like an obvious thing, but many implementations have callbacks that are called on each message / each forwarded element and might just process those even outside of a query
  430. Ge0rG So I'd rather write it down in that paragraph
  431. Kev "A client MUST verify the source of MAM query results against an open query (i.e. checking the stanza 'from' matches the entity that was queried) and MUST either ignore or otherwise disregard (maybe with a warning to the user) unsolicited results - whether because the 'from' doesn't match an open query, or because there is no open query"
  432. Kev Bit after -
  433. Ge0rG Good enough for me :)
  434. Ge0rG Kev: Also feel free to copy&paste the CVE-2019-16235 and CVE-2020-26547 blocks from 0280, as those also affect MAM
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  436. Kev Jonas thought sorting out the CVEs was Editorial, so I’ll leave that for the moment.
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  438. Ge0rG Good enough.
  439. Kev I figure just getting an author patch in with the other comments is probably providing more urgentness right now.
  440. Ge0rG Kev: you are right.
  441. Ge0rG Regarding process, do we need another LC or can that be considered as "implementing LC feedback from last time"?
  442. Kev As far as I would care, this is addressing feedback issued since LC.
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  446. Kev I know LCs are two weeks or whatever, but in practice from the moment LC is issued until it advances to Drable is one big LC period.
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  448. Ge0rG So we can actually vote on advancing it today.
  449. Kev If I get this patch submitted and an Editor gets it merged (or Council vote based on the merging), potentially. I could be dragged away from it at any moment, though, and I’m pretty slow at writing XEP stuff.
  450. Ge0rG Writing XEP text is not an easy job.
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  452. Kev Ok, please be kind about this paragraph, because I don’t think it’s straightforward to write (I’ll include the specifics of ‘include-groupchat’ else where in the protocol section. This is in business rules: <p>Previous versions of this specification stated that a server SHOULD also include messages of type 'groupchat' that have a &lt;body&gt;. This advice has now been dropped, and servers MAY include groupchat messages in their archives. Whether a server stores groupchat messages or not is now left as an implementation (or deployment) decision. Whether a client wants to receive groupchat messages in results can be signalled with the 'include-groupchat' field (if supported by the server - see "Determining support") - where the server doesn't support this field, or where a client doesn't specify it in the query, whether groupchat messages are included in the result is implementation-defined; this allows existing deployments to not break with the introduction of the 'include-groupchat' query field in a later version of this specification, but it is RECOMMENDED that all client implementations of the current version of this specification always include the field where the server supports it, and that servers support it.</p>
  453. Kev Ge0rG & dwd: Does that roughly match your expectations?
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  455. jonas’ SGTM
  456. Ge0rG Kev: +1
  457. Ge0rG would anything break if a client unconditionally includes <include-groupchat>?
  458. dwd Looks good from my side.
  459. dwd Ge0rG, I did wonder about that. I think forms generally pre-suppose ignoring unknown fields, but I'd need to check.
  460. Kev Ge0rG: Depends how the server processes unexpected query fields. I wouldn’t like to recommend it.
  461. jonas’ Ge0rG, possibly.
  462. Ge0rG Extensible.
  463. jonas’ I think the question "what happens on undeclared fields" was raised in the previous LC
  464. Kev Extensible doesn’t mean that when the server says “You can use these fields” that it should accept other ones :)
  465. Ge0rG Kev: well, normally it should mean "ignore all the fields you don't know"
  466. Ge0rG jonas’: indeed, because the implication was to return results that don't match what the client asked for.
  467. Kev Actually, including it serves no purpose.
  468. Kev Because if the server doesn’t support it, you won’t get it respecting in.
  469. Kev Because if the server doesn’t support it, you won’t get it respecting it.
  470. Kev So even if you could always include gc=false, you’d still have to expect gc results.
  471. Ge0rG Kev: the purpose is for a client that knows what it wants to always tell the server, without requiring a feature discovery round-trip
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  473. Ge0rG Kev: well, you also have to ignore those results from a server that doesn't have the feature.
  474. Kev Regardless - if we later determine that it is safe to include it’s a non-breaking change to a Drable (or Final) XEP to say “A client can safely always include this feature”.
  475. Kev But saying it now and later finding it was wrong is a breaking change.
  476. Ge0rG Rrrrright.
  477. Kev So I suggest we don’t add it now.
  478. Kev <p>If a client includes a form field that the server does not recognise, the server MUST respond with a 'feature-not-implemented' error.</p>
  479. Kev So it’s definitely not safe.
  480. Ge0rG Yay.
  481. Ge0rG so s/where the server supports it/iff the server supports it/?
  482. Ge0rG We have so far exactly one use of "iff", in 0390
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  485. Kev Ok, another please be kind;
  486. Kev <section3 topic='Including groupchat results in a user archive' anchor='query-include-groupchat'> <p>If the server advertises that it includes groupchat messages in a user's archive (see <link url='#support'>Determining support</link>), a client may query a user archive and request for them to be included in the result with the 'include-groupchat' field set to 'true'. </p> <example caption='Querying the archive and including groupchat messages in results'><![CDATA[ <iq type='set' id='juliet1'> <query xmlns='urn:xmpp:mam:2'> <x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='submit'> <field var='FORM_TYPE' type='hidden'> <value>urn:xmpp:mam:2</value> </field> <field var='include-groupchat'> <value>true</value> </field> ... </x> </query> </iq> ]]></example> <p>If the server advertises that it includes groupchat messages in the archive, or it advertises that it doesn't, a client may request that they not be included by setting the 'include-groupchat' field to 'false'.</p> <example caption='Querying the archive and excluding groupchat messages from results'><![CDATA[ <iq type='set' id='juliet1'> <query xmlns='urn:xmpp:mam:2'> <x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='submit'> <field var='FORM_TYPE' type='hidden'> <value>urn:xmpp:mam:2</value> </field> <field var='include-groupchat'> <value>false</value> </field> ... </x> </query> </iq> ]]></example> <p>Note that where the client doesn't specify the 'include-groupchat' field, it is implementation-defined whether groupchat messages are included in the results (see <link url='#business_rules'>Business Rules</link>).</p> </section3>
  487. jonas’ Ge0rG, I came to the conclusion that `iff` is too close to a typo and it shoudl be written as `if and only if` always
  488. Ge0rG jonas’: +1 to that
  489. Kev If I’m writing for an English-first audience, I’ll happily use iff. I think in XEPs it’s probably ill-advised.
  490. Ge0rG Kev: you might want to add a note that if a client adds the field on a server not advertising the feature, it will receive a `feature-not-implemented` error
  491. Kev That can’t hurt.
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  493. Kev "Clients MUST NOT include this field where servers don't advertise support, as the server would reject such a form."
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  495. Ge0rG Kev: +1
  496. Kev Ok, I think I have a suitable change, then.
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  499. Kev Ge0rG (and others) - would you mind checking https://github.com/xsf/xeps/compare/master...Kev:xep313/LC-feedback-Ge0rG?expand=1 is close enough to what you expect, please, before I open the PR? I’m running out of morning and I increasingly urgently need to move on to other things :)
  500. Ge0rG Kev: that will only open a PR window, ITYM https://github.com/Kev/xeps/commit/992d40b20995692b1d3db5a760948d88103283ef
  501. Kev It shows a diff for me, but probably :)
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  504. Ge0rG Kev: could you add a <section2 topic='Sender Impersonation' anchor='security-impersonation'> around the security paragraph?
  505. Ge0rG other than that, it looks great to me!
  506. Kev + </section2> + <section2 topic='Sender Impersonation' anchor='security-impersonation'>
  507. Kev Branch updated. I’ll submit, thanks.
  508. Ge0rG I still think that we'd greatly benefit from a statement like "Servers SHOULD NOT send offline history to clients that perform a MAM query before their initial presence"
  509. Kev I don’t disagree in principle, although I kinda feel it’s too big a can of worms for right now.
  510. Kev And we obviously can’t fully SHOULD NOT without some sort of namespace guarding.
  511. Ge0rG Well, this is exactly the can of worms you want to address before going Drable.
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  514. Kev I can pop in a line to business rules if you’re happy that it’s non-normative.
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  517. Ge0rG This is exactly the sort of thing I'd like discussed among server and client developers.
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  519. Kev <p>A server MAY choose not to deliver offline messages to a client that has already queried their MAM archive and received the archived copies of those messages that would otherwise be delivered - while not required of an implementation, this is helpful to avoid duplicate messages for clients, so is suggested.</p> Seems safe enough, to me.
  520. Ge0rG Kev: great wording, +1
  521. Kev Also pushed.
  522. Kev I’ll raise the PR, then.
  523. Ge0rG Kev: please do!
  524. Kev I think that’s done now - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1104
  525. Kev I guess I *could* hit merge myself, but I’d probably better leave it for jonas’ in case I messed something up in the PR.
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  530. jonas’ yes please don't just hit merge
  531. jonas’ we don't have any automation there and it'll confuse the heck out of me
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  785. Ge0rG So I wanted to have a perma-link to "this year's compliance suite XEP" and it's not possible :(
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  788. wurstsalat Ge0rG, nginx redirect?
  789. Ge0rG wurstsalat: something like https://xmpp.org/compliancesuite/ maybe?
  790. Ge0rG wurstsalat: who can create such a redirect?
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  792. wurstsalat Ge0rG, this file (I think) https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/deploy/xsf.conf
  793. Ge0rG wurstsalat: I'm not sure I should dare doing that without asking the A-Team, sorry, the i-team first.
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  795. wurstsalat Ge0rG, sure! those redirects work when building the page via docker
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  802. Ge0rG https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/960 is for the i-team
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  825. emus please dont merge untill we have the new website setup
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  831. Ge0rG emus: better comment that on the PR
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  836. emus yep
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  952. phryk MattJ, Zash: Do you guys have a list which clients support the technically non-standard invite-based registrations you implemented? (i.e. prosody mod_invites)
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  954. phryk making some progress with dynamically built setup guides for my services' site and need that info to recommend people how to do things depending on what OS they're on and what client i'm recommending per OS. :)
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  959. MattJ phryk, I recently learned that it was 99% standardized as https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0445.html
  960. MattJ but it had somehow passed me by
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  1003. phryk If I recall the situation right you and Zash implemented that but it wasn't complete, so you implemented the necessary extra bits and added them to the XEP but the original author reverted those changes to the XEP.
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  1049. phryk also none of the known client doaps report support for it :P
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