debacleQuestion about "XEP-0060: Publish-Subscribe" `pubsub#item_expire` : Is this meant to be relative to the creation time of the item or last modification? Both can make sense, depending on use case, right?
ti_gj06has left
cyberduckgohas left
cyberduckgohas joined
flowtrue
debacleIMHO, time of last modification makes more sense, because the standard also says:
> Note: If a publisher publishes an item with an Item ID and the ItemID matches that of an existing item, the pubsub service MUST NOT fail the publication but instead MUST overwrite the existing item and generate a new event notification (i.e., *re-publication is equivalent to modification).*
florettahas joined
flowalso true, but that makes it harder for the use case where you want to publish some information until a certain absolute deadline passes, and you edit that information after it was initially published
flowso, two deaths, chose one
chronosx88has left
chronosx88has joined
debacleFor singleton nodes and also for blog posts, I assume, that modification is better in most cases. For an absolute deadline, IMHO expiry time is not very good, because it is configured per node not by item. As long as there is no absolute expiry time per item, I would better implement that on side of the publisher, i.e. the publisher should "manually" remove the item, when time comes.
debacleBut whatever option, most important would be that the standard does not leave this question open ;-)
debacleflow Uff, one day I need to learn all that modern stuff...
Zashemail the patch to the editor 😉
meeeesonhas joined
flowdebacle, well you *could* mail the patch to the editor
flowbut, think of it this way: if you PR it via github, you actually incurr cost to microsoft ;)
debacleyes, that's how old people like myself work, inefficiently ;-)
flowalthough MS may benefit at the end of the day from it anyway
debacleI'm sure, that MS uses XMPP *somewhere* - so they benefit from everything we do to improve XMPP ;-)
adiaholichas joined
adiaholichas left
adiaholichas joined
florettahas left
Maranda> I'm sure, that MS uses XMPP *somewhere* - so they benefit from everything we do to improve XMPP ;-)
I'm sure enough you're wrong
flowMS is a pretty big company (plus associated companies), and somewhere is a pretty low bar to jump. a single game using XMPP as basis for its lobby would be sufficient…
zengardenhas left
zengardenhas joined
MarandaThere was a XMPP gateway in Skype for Business Server but that was deprecated in Skype for Business Server 2019
christianMattJ: we must be optimistic, we need better clients. Pidgin should have been improved instead to develop so many other clients to beta and then abandon them. (excuse my horrible english)
jl4has joined
MattJThe truth is Pidgin never was a great XMPP client
MattJAnd the same is generally true of all multi-protocol clients
christianI used Gaim :)) and it rocked. It had voice and video on windows95 and it was working with yahoo google and aol.
christianI forgot icq
bunghas joined
HolgerMattJ: FWIW my impression wasn't that bad. Functionality was basic bad good enough for most users back then, and it was rock solid, which wasn't true for all clients (looking at all your tracebacks, Gajim).✎
HolgerMattJ: FWIW my impression wasn't that bad. Functionality was basic but good enough for most users back then, and it was rock solid, which wasn't true for all clients (looking at all your tracebacks, Gajim). ✏
flowhehe, although I am not sure if I want to use a client written in a non-typesafe language in 2021
HolgerI think I did A/V with Pidgin just fine, some years ago.
Alexhas left
Alexhas joined
cyberduckgohas left
debaclehas left
Holgerflow: Yeah a type safe language most probably would've avoided most of those Gajim traces 😉✎
Holgerflow: Yeah a type-safe language most probably would've avoided most of those Gajim traces 😉 ✏
cyberduckgohas joined
mjkhas left
pasdesushihas left
mjkhas joined
flowHolger, you mean statically typed languages would avoided those
HolgerYes yes, I saw that coming.
malthehas joined
harry837374884has left
pasdesushihas joined
christianPeople identify xmpp with pidgin, for that reason alone we should evolve pidgin and not create a new status symbol.
It is like an artifact. Believe me, I know marketing :))
christianYou can not say a religion is 2000 years old if you write a bible every 10 years.
mdosch> People identify xmpp with pidgin
It is a widely used client but I don't think this is true.
meeeesonchristian: I think the number of ppl identifying Pidgin with XMPP is declining statically (for good) :)
papatutuwawahas joined
Wojtekhas joined
babacbhas left
babacbhas joined
malthehas left
scorchhas joined
mjkhas left
mukt2has joined
mjkhas joined
Maranda(thank gods)
jcbrandThe Shiny Flakes documentary has lots of scenes where he's using XMPP, even showing addresses like xxx@jabbim.cx
And guess what chat client he's using?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15036416/
ti_gj06has joined
florettahas joined
cyberduckgohas left
wgreenhousejcbrand: probably he was using tails, where it's still part of the base install
jcbrandHe ran a wordpress site on the clear net and had 300kg of drugs in his room (all while being a minor)
jcbrandSomehow I don't think he used Tails
pasdesushihas left
mukt2has left
wgreenhouseope
jcbrandFun fact, on his website, he promised not to keep any data on his customers. In reality he had an Excel sheet with IIRC 13000 orders, with names, addresses and what they bought.
jcbrandMany of those people were later prosecuted and he had to go as witness to those trials
harry837374884has joined
adiaholichas left
wendyhas joined
jcbrandI'm tempted to give more spoilers concerning his terrible opsec, but maybe some people want to watch the documentary. It was quite good IMO
wgreenhousesounds like I should watch this on a day when I need some tragicomedy
christianThis is very OT: This is all normal, you never catch the dealers until you have uncovered and arrested the whole network. The dealer is the last to be arrested, and is usually released immediately, because he uncovers the trail to the next network.
zengardenhas left
karoshihas left
mathieuihas left
soundconcepthas left
mathieuihas joined
karoshihas joined
zengardenhas joined
scorchhas left
DebXWoodyhas left
scorchhas joined
lskdjfhas left
adiaholichas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
pasdesushihas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
adiaholichas left
adiaholichas joined
ti_gj06has left
cyberduckgohas joined
bunghas left
ti_gj06has joined
Mikaelahas joined
bunghas joined
lskdjfhas joined
mjk> We're doing XMPP and we're still alive 🎵️
`And when they're dead, we will be still alive`
cyberduckgohas left
kyemxdenhas left
kyemxdenhas joined
ti_gj06has left
cyberduckgohas joined
lovetoxhas left
adiaholichas left
chronosx88has left
chronosx88has joined
adiaholichas joined
scorchhas left
ti_gj06has joined
lovetoxhas joined
georgeorwellhas left
ti_gj06has left
adiaholichas left
ti_gj06has joined
scorchhas joined
Calvinhas joined
bung> Zash wrote:
> We're doing XMPP and we're still alive 🎵️
Yes
bung> Zash wrote:
> All good things must come to an end.
I have need immortality
scorchhas left
ZashTurn evil you say?
ti_gj06has joined
bungWhat?
cyberduckgohas left
ZashGood things → ends
Bad things → IMMORTALITY
Therefore: Evil
QED
bungWhy immortality is bad?
ZashBecause it does not end. Good things end. Therefore immortality ≠ good.
ZashTherefore we must turn evil!!11!!1
bungI think immortality is good
bungRelaxing
cyberduckgohas joined
bungAnd why would the software that's been around for twenty-two years end?
DebXWoodyhas joined
lskdjfhas left
HolgerAssuming it won't, it feels quite exciting how we've been involved with the very first decades of a spec that will live on for billions of years.
ti_gj06has left
papatutuwawahas left
georgeorwellhas joined
cyberduckgohas left
mjkBILLIONS
HolgerYes.
HolgerMaybe people will remember us as the early pionieers a billion years from now.
HolgerProsody's community repo will hold billions of modules. (hg will cope, it's superior to Git.)
Holgerejabberd will scale to billions of nodes. YY.MM release versioning scheme will become problematic tho.
cyberduckgohas joined
HolgerSam will be going nuts due to billions of redundant XEPs for publishing avatars.
MattJMIX will be nearly deployed
mjkEh, there's plenty of time til the end of the century to change the versioning scheme to include more Ys
mjkSorting versions, otoh... ugh
lorddavidiiihas left
Samheh, indeed, the situation is bad enough already, I dread seeing it in a few million years
mjk> MIX will be nearly deployed
Despite the billions of "against" and "strongly against"
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
cyberduckgohas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
eevvoorhas left
eevvoorhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
cyberduckgohas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas joined
chronosx88has left
adiaholichas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
scorchhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
mathieuihas left
mathieuihas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
Paganinihas joined
wladmishas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
cyberduckgohas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
cyberduckgohas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wladmishas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
adiaholichas left
mathieuihas left
malthehas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
mathieuihas joined
wladmishas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
adiaholichas joined
wladmishas joined
ti_gj06has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
emushas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
emushas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
wladmishas left
wladmishas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
zengardenhas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wladmishas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
wgreenhousehas left
zengardenhas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
adiaholichas left
cyberduckgohas left
cyberduckgohas joined
ti_gj06has left
mathieuihas left
mathieuihas joined
papatutuwawahas joined
Mikaelahas left
ti_gj06has joined
Wojtekhas left
Wojtekhas joined
georgeorwellhas left
sonnyhas left
kyemxdenhas left
sonnyhas joined
kyemxdenhas joined
Calvinhas left
Mikaelahas joined
mathieuihas left
mathieuihas joined
ti_gj06has left
wgreenhousehas left
Wojtekhas left
wgreenhousehas joined
wladmishas joined
wgreenhousehas left
wladmishas left
Syndacehas left
govanifyhas left
govanifyhas joined
govanifyhas left
govanifyhas joined
Mikaelahas left
wgreenhousehas joined
wladmishas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wladmishas left
wgreenhousehas left
wladmishas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
soundconcepthas left
antranigvhas left
antranigvhas joined
andrey.ghas joined
mathieuihas left
mathieuihas joined
emushas left
soundconcepthas joined
ti_gj06has left
Wojtekhas joined
emushas joined
antranigvhas left
ti_gj06has joined
soundconcepthas left
wgreenhousehas left
soundconcepthas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
debaclehas joined
florettahas left
wgreenhousehas left
andrey.ghas left
florettahas joined
inkyhas joined
antranigvhas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
Alexhas left
wgreenhousehas left
malthehas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
millesimusHas anything changed with the newsletter feed? For some reason, my reader keeps loading all feed items since 2008, marking them as unread…
BASSGODhas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
MattJI was worried that may happen :)
inkyhas left
inkyhas joined
MattJWe switched to a new site generator, and some things necessarily changed
cyberduckgohas left
Alexhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
millesimusIt happened twice or thrice already, that's why I'm asking. Were there several changes?
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
nycohas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
cyberduckgohas joined
Wojtekhas left
moparisthebestMattJ: have to wonder if Google gives the same answer to matrix fans though...
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
MattJmillesimus, that sounds plausible - the first roll-out accidentally switched to summarized articles, instead of including the full post content in the feed. That was fixed, along with some other things, so it's possible that caused the issue. I'd hope it doesn't happen again though, so feel free to shout if it does.
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
eevvoorhas left
florettahas left
eevvoorhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
millesimusWill keep an eye on it. :)
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
sonnyhas left
eevvoorhas left
sonnyhas joined
eevvoorhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has left
govanifyhas left
govanifyhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
govanifyhas left
govanifyhas joined
Wojtekhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
florettahas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has left
chronosx88has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
malthehas joined
sonnyhas left
lovetoxgoffi
sonnyhas joined
lovetoxFYI, your email server fails for dkim and dmarc
lskdjfhas joined
lovetoxDKIM: 'FAIL' mit Domain goffi.org
DMARC: 'FAIL'
lovetoxthis means it lands in spam
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
goffilovetox: oh really? Damn I thought this was properly configured, I'll check it, thanks.
lovetoxSPF : PASS though :)
lovetoxon the topic, its sad that not more server support #item_expire
lovetoxits incredibly useful for stuff like
lovetoxposting a Status / Current Music etc to pubsub
Yagizahas left
lovetoxsuch information is not very long useful and accurate
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
nycohas joined
lovetoxand its impossible for clients to remove it in all circumstances
lovetoxthe idea is like whatsapp for example automatically expire it after some time, status for example after 24 hours
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
pjnhas left
pjnhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
Daniellovetox: I think we (as a community) have a decent history of creating server side and client side implementations simultaneously at the same time
DanielIf for example you wanted to implement WhatsApp like statuses in your fairly popular client I'm sure server developers can be convinced to implement this
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
florettahas left
florettahas joined
mukt2has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
millesimushas left
millesimushas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has joined
kyemxdenhas left
kyemxdenhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wgreenhousehas left
Tobiashas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
Tobiashas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
BASSGODhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wgreenhousehas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has left
Wojtekhas left
Holger> on the topic, its sad that not more server support #item_expire
Funny, a customer asked me to implement this literally yesterday.
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
Holger(Ah, he's joined to this room and spawned the topic, so not a coincidence, heh.)
lorddavidiiihas joined
ti_gj06has left
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
Syndacehas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has joined
norkkihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lovetoxDaniel, i asked the prosody team for example to implement this, and i think i got an email a few days ago which indicates they might consider doing it. This was not meant as a rant. I just took the chance, while the option was discussed at the mailing list, to bring awareness how the option might be useful to users. Because its maybe not evident to server devs.
lovetoxin retrospect i probably should not have used the word "sad". its not really a good fit for the situation.
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
DanielA customer of mine recently implemented whatsapp like statuses (for an xmpp client) out of band over HTTP instead of microblogging and pubsub. Which is super sad. I would have loved to be paid to implement this with xmpp
DanielI actually think this would have worked out pretty nicely