Question about "XEP-0060: Publish-Subscribe" `pubsub#item_expire` : Is this meant to be relative to the creation time of the item or last modification? Both can make sense, depending on use case, right?
ti_gj06has left
cyberduckgohas left
cyberduckgohas joined
flow
true
debacle
IMHO, time of last modification makes more sense, because the standard also says:
> Note: If a publisher publishes an item with an Item ID and the ItemID matches that of an existing item, the pubsub service MUST NOT fail the publication but instead MUST overwrite the existing item and generate a new event notification (i.e., *re-publication is equivalent to modification).*
florettahas joined
flow
also true, but that makes it harder for the use case where you want to publish some information until a certain absolute deadline passes, and you edit that information after it was initially published
flow
so, two deaths, chose one
chronosx88has left
chronosx88has joined
debacle
For singleton nodes and also for blog posts, I assume, that modification is better in most cases. For an absolute deadline, IMHO expiry time is not very good, because it is configured per node not by item. As long as there is no absolute expiry time per item, I would better implement that on side of the publisher, i.e. the publisher should "manually" remove the item, when time comes.
debacle
But whatever option, most important would be that the standard does not leave this question open ;-)
flow Uff, one day I need to learn all that modern stuff...
Zash
email the patch to the editor 😉
meeeesonhas joined
flow
debacle, well you *could* mail the patch to the editor
flow
but, think of it this way: if you PR it via github, you actually incurr cost to microsoft ;)
debacle
yes, that's how old people like myself work, inefficiently ;-)
flow
although MS may benefit at the end of the day from it anyway
debacle
I'm sure, that MS uses XMPP *somewhere* - so they benefit from everything we do to improve XMPP ;-)
adiaholichas joined
adiaholichas left
adiaholichas joined
florettahas left
Maranda
> I'm sure, that MS uses XMPP *somewhere* - so they benefit from everything we do to improve XMPP ;-)
I'm sure enough you're wrong
flow
MS is a pretty big company (plus associated companies), and somewhere is a pretty low bar to jump. a single game using XMPP as basis for its lobby would be sufficient…
zengardenhas left
zengardenhas joined
Maranda
There was a XMPP gateway in Skype for Business Server but that was deprecated in Skype for Business Server 2019
MattJ: we must be optimistic, we need better clients. Pidgin should have been improved instead to develop so many other clients to beta and then abandon them. (excuse my horrible english)
jl4has joined
MattJ
The truth is Pidgin never was a great XMPP client
MattJ
And the same is generally true of all multi-protocol clients
christian
I used Gaim :)) and it rocked. It had voice and video on windows95 and it was working with yahoo google and aol.
christian
I forgot icq
bunghas joined
Holger
MattJ: FWIW my impression wasn't that bad. Functionality was basic bad good enough for most users back then, and it was rock solid, which wasn't true for all clients (looking at all your tracebacks, Gajim).✎
Holger
MattJ: FWIW my impression wasn't that bad. Functionality was basic but good enough for most users back then, and it was rock solid, which wasn't true for all clients (looking at all your tracebacks, Gajim). ✏
hehe, although I am not sure if I want to use a client written in a non-typesafe language in 2021
Holger
I think I did A/V with Pidgin just fine, some years ago.
Alexhas left
Alexhas joined
cyberduckgohas left
debaclehas left
Holger
flow: Yeah a type safe language most probably would've avoided most of those Gajim traces 😉✎
Holger
flow: Yeah a type-safe language most probably would've avoided most of those Gajim traces 😉 ✏
cyberduckgohas joined
mjkhas left
pasdesushihas left
mjkhas joined
flow
Holger, you mean statically typed languages would avoided those
Holger
Yes yes, I saw that coming.
malthehas joined
harry837374884has left
pasdesushihas joined
christian
People identify xmpp with pidgin, for that reason alone we should evolve pidgin and not create a new status symbol.
It is like an artifact. Believe me, I know marketing :))
christian
You can not say a religion is 2000 years old if you write a bible every 10 years.
mdosch
> People identify xmpp with pidgin
It is a widely used client but I don't think this is true.
meeeeson
christian: I think the number of ppl identifying Pidgin with XMPP is declining statically (for good) :)
papatutuwawahas joined
Wojtekhas joined
babacbhas left
babacbhas joined
malthehas left
scorchhas joined
mjkhas left
mukt2has joined
mjkhas joined
Maranda
(thank gods)
jcbrand
The Shiny Flakes documentary has lots of scenes where he's using XMPP, even showing addresses like xxx@jabbim.cx
And guess what chat client he's using?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15036416/
ti_gj06has joined
florettahas joined
cyberduckgohas left
wgreenhouse
jcbrand: probably he was using tails, where it's still part of the base install
jcbrand
He ran a wordpress site on the clear net and had 300kg of drugs in his room (all while being a minor)
jcbrand
Somehow I don't think he used Tails
pasdesushihas left
mukt2has left
wgreenhouse
ope
jcbrand
Fun fact, on his website, he promised not to keep any data on his customers. In reality he had an Excel sheet with IIRC 13000 orders, with names, addresses and what they bought.
jcbrand
Many of those people were later prosecuted and he had to go as witness to those trials
harry837374884has joined
adiaholichas left
wendyhas joined
jcbrand
I'm tempted to give more spoilers concerning his terrible opsec, but maybe some people want to watch the documentary. It was quite good IMO
wgreenhouse
sounds like I should watch this on a day when I need some tragicomedy
christian
This is very OT: This is all normal, you never catch the dealers until you have uncovered and arrested the whole network. The dealer is the last to be arrested, and is usually released immediately, because he uncovers the trail to the next network.
zengardenhas left
karoshihas left
mathieuihas left
soundconcepthas left
mathieuihas joined
karoshihas joined
zengardenhas joined
scorchhas left
DebXWoodyhas left
scorchhas joined
lskdjfhas left
adiaholichas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
pasdesushihas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
adiaholichas left
adiaholichas joined
ti_gj06has left
cyberduckgohas joined
bunghas left
ti_gj06has joined
Mikaelahas joined
bunghas joined
lskdjfhas joined
mjk
> We're doing XMPP and we're still alive 🎵️
`And when they're dead, we will be still alive`
cyberduckgohas left
kyemxdenhas left
kyemxdenhas joined
ti_gj06has left
cyberduckgohas joined
lovetoxhas left
adiaholichas left
chronosx88has left
chronosx88has joined
adiaholichas joined
scorchhas left
ti_gj06has joined
lovetoxhas joined
georgeorwellhas left
ti_gj06has left
adiaholichas left
ti_gj06has joined
scorchhas joined
Calvinhas joined
bung
> Zash wrote:
> We're doing XMPP and we're still alive 🎵️
Yes
> Zash wrote:
> All good things must come to an end.
I have need immortality
scorchhas left
Zash
Turn evil you say?
ti_gj06has joined
bung
What?
cyberduckgohas left
Zash
Good things → ends
Bad things → IMMORTALITY
Therefore: Evil
QED
bung
Why immortality is bad?
Zash
Because it does not end. Good things end. Therefore immortality ≠ good.
Zash
Therefore we must turn evil!!11!!1
bung
I think immortality is good
bung
Relaxing
cyberduckgohas joined
bung
And why would the software that's been around for twenty-two years end?
DebXWoodyhas joined
lskdjfhas left
Holger
Assuming it won't, it feels quite exciting how we've been involved with the very first decades of a spec that will live on for billions of years.
ti_gj06has left
papatutuwawahas left
georgeorwellhas joined
cyberduckgohas left
mjk
BILLIONS
Holger
Yes.
Holger
Maybe people will remember us as the early pionieers a billion years from now.
Holger
Prosody's community repo will hold billions of modules. (hg will cope, it's superior to Git.)
Holger
ejabberd will scale to billions of nodes. YY.MM release versioning scheme will become problematic tho.
cyberduckgohas joined
Holger
Sam will be going nuts due to billions of redundant XEPs for publishing avatars.
MattJ
MIX will be nearly deployed
mjk
Eh, there's plenty of time til the end of the century to change the versioning scheme to include more Ys
mjk
Sorting versions, otoh... ugh
lorddavidiiihas left
Sam
heh, indeed, the situation is bad enough already, I dread seeing it in a few million years
mjk
> MIX will be nearly deployed
Despite the billions of "against" and "strongly against"
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
cyberduckgohas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
eevvoorhas left
eevvoorhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
cyberduckgohas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas joined
chronosx88has left
adiaholichas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
scorchhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
mathieuihas left
mathieuihas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
Paganinihas joined
wladmishas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
cyberduckgohas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
cyberduckgohas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wladmishas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
adiaholichas left
mathieuihas left
malthehas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
mathieuihas joined
wladmishas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
adiaholichas joined
wladmishas joined
ti_gj06has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
emushas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
emushas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
wladmishas left
wladmishas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
zengardenhas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wladmishas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
wgreenhousehas left
zengardenhas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
adiaholichas left
cyberduckgohas left
cyberduckgohas joined
ti_gj06has left
mathieuihas left
mathieuihas joined
papatutuwawahas joined
Mikaelahas left
ti_gj06has joined
Wojtekhas left
Wojtekhas joined
georgeorwellhas left
sonnyhas left
kyemxdenhas left
sonnyhas joined
kyemxdenhas joined
Calvinhas left
Mikaelahas joined
mathieuihas left
mathieuihas joined
ti_gj06has left
wgreenhousehas left
Wojtekhas left
wgreenhousehas joined
wladmishas joined
wgreenhousehas left
wladmishas left
Syndacehas left
govanifyhas left
govanifyhas joined
govanifyhas left
govanifyhas joined
Mikaelahas left
wgreenhousehas joined
wladmishas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wladmishas left
wgreenhousehas left
wladmishas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
soundconcepthas left
antranigvhas left
antranigvhas joined
andrey.ghas joined
mathieuihas left
mathieuihas joined
emushas left
soundconcepthas joined
ti_gj06has left
Wojtekhas joined
emushas joined
antranigvhas left
ti_gj06has joined
soundconcepthas left
wgreenhousehas left
soundconcepthas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
debaclehas joined
florettahas left
wgreenhousehas left
andrey.ghas left
florettahas joined
inkyhas joined
antranigvhas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
Alexhas left
wgreenhousehas left
malthehas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
wgreenhousehas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
millesimus
Has anything changed with the newsletter feed? For some reason, my reader keeps loading all feed items since 2008, marking them as unread…
BASSGODhas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
MattJ
I was worried that may happen :)
inkyhas left
inkyhas joined
MattJ
We switched to a new site generator, and some things necessarily changed
cyberduckgohas left
Alexhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
millesimus
It happened twice or thrice already, that's why I'm asking. Were there several changes?
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
nycohas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
cyberduckgohas joined
Wojtekhas left
moparisthebest
MattJ: have to wonder if Google gives the same answer to matrix fans though...
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
MattJ
millesimus, that sounds plausible - the first roll-out accidentally switched to summarized articles, instead of including the full post content in the feed. That was fixed, along with some other things, so it's possible that caused the issue. I'd hope it doesn't happen again though, so feel free to shout if it does.
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
eevvoorhas left
florettahas left
eevvoorhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
millesimus
Will keep an eye on it. :)
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
sonnyhas left
eevvoorhas left
sonnyhas joined
eevvoorhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has left
govanifyhas left
govanifyhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
govanifyhas left
govanifyhas joined
Wojtekhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
florettahas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has left
chronosx88has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas joined
sonnyhas left
sonnyhas joined
malthehas joined
sonnyhas left
lovetox
goffi
sonnyhas joined
lovetox
FYI, your email server fails for dkim and dmarc
lskdjfhas joined
lovetox
DKIM: 'FAIL' mit Domain goffi.org
DMARC: 'FAIL'
lovetox
this means it lands in spam
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
goffi
lovetox: oh really? Damn I thought this was properly configured, I'll check it, thanks.
lovetox
SPF : PASS though :)
lovetox
on the topic, its sad that not more server support #item_expire
lovetox
its incredibly useful for stuff like
lovetox
posting a Status / Current Music etc to pubsub
Yagizahas left
lovetox
such information is not very long useful and accurate
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
nycohas joined
lovetox
and its impossible for clients to remove it in all circumstances
lovetox
the idea is like whatsapp for example automatically expire it after some time, status for example after 24 hours
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
pjnhas left
pjnhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
Daniel
lovetox: I think we (as a community) have a decent history of creating server side and client side implementations simultaneously at the same time
Daniel
If for example you wanted to implement WhatsApp like statuses in your fairly popular client I'm sure server developers can be convinced to implement this
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
florettahas left
florettahas joined
mukt2has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
millesimushas left
millesimushas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has joined
kyemxdenhas left
kyemxdenhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wgreenhousehas left
Tobiashas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
Tobiashas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
BASSGODhas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
ti_gj06has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
soundconcepthas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
wgreenhousehas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has left
Wojtekhas left
Holger
> on the topic, its sad that not more server support #item_expire
Funny, a customer asked me to implement this literally yesterday.
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
Holger
(Ah, he's joined to this room and spawned the topic, so not a coincidence, heh.)
lorddavidiiihas joined
ti_gj06has left
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
Syndacehas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
chronosx88has joined
norkkihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lovetox
Daniel, i asked the prosody team for example to implement this, and i think i got an email a few days ago which indicates they might consider doing it. This was not meant as a rant. I just took the chance, while the option was discussed at the mailing list, to bring awareness how the option might be useful to users. Because its maybe not evident to server devs.
lovetox
in retrospect i probably should not have used the word "sad". its not really a good fit for the situation.
lorddavidiiihas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
Daniel
A customer of mine recently implemented whatsapp like statuses (for an xmpp client) out of band over HTTP instead of microblogging and pubsub. Which is super sad. I would have loved to be paid to implement this with xmpp
Daniel
I actually think this would have worked out pretty nicely