XSF Discussion - 2021-09-17

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07:43:26 cyberduckgo Hi
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08:38:26 debacle Question about "XEP-0060: Publish-Subscribe" `pubsub#item_expire` : Is this meant to be relative to the creation time of the item or last modification? Both can make sense, depending on use case, right?
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08:43:48 flow true
08:43:58 debacle IMHO, time of last modification makes more sense, because the standard also says: > Note: If a publisher publishes an item with an Item ID and the ItemID matches that of an existing item, the pubsub service MUST NOT fail the publication but instead MUST overwrite the existing item and generate a new event notification (i.e., *re-publication is equivalent to modification).*
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08:44:51 flow also true, but that makes it harder for the use case where you want to publish some information until a certain absolute deadline passes, and you edit that information after it was initially published
08:45:07 flow so, two deaths, chose one
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08:48:33 debacle For singleton nodes and also for blog posts, I assume, that modification is better in most cases. For an absolute deadline, IMHO expiry time is not very good, because it is configured per node not by item. As long as there is no absolute expiry time per item, I would better implement that on side of the publisher, i.e. the publisher should "manually" remove the item, when time comes.
08:49:07 debacle But whatever option, most important would be that the standard does not leave this question open ;-)
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09:00:35 flow debacle, ahh right, fair point
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09:21:28 debacle https://xmpp.debian.org:5281/upload/6lQnCKqHOy1J9frJ/xep-0060.patch
09:22:18 flow debacle, PR it!
09:23:34 debacle flow Uff, one day I need to learn all that modern stuff...
09:23:52 Zash email the patch to the editor 😉
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09:23:57 flow debacle, well you *could* mail the patch to the editor
09:24:42 flow but, think of it this way: if you PR it via github, you actually incurr cost to microsoft ;)
09:24:50 debacle yes, that's how old people like myself work, inefficiently ;-)
09:25:08 flow although MS may benefit at the end of the day from it anyway
09:26:20 debacle I'm sure, that MS uses XMPP *somewhere* - so they benefit from everything we do to improve XMPP ;-)
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09:41:01 Maranda > I'm sure, that MS uses XMPP *somewhere* - so they benefit from everything we do to improve XMPP ;-) I'm sure enough you're wrong
09:42:09 flow MS is a pretty big company (plus associated companies), and somewhere is a pretty low bar to jump. a single game using XMPP as basis for its lobby would be sufficient…
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09:43:46 Maranda There was a XMPP gateway in Skype for Business Server but that was deprecated in Skype for Business Server 2019
09:44:05 Maranda (see: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/skypeforbusiness/migration/migrating-xmpp-federation)
09:44:44 Maranda (Beside that SBS is on its way to die as well)
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09:46:51 MattJ https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/screenshot-20210917-1631871982-13372.png
09:46:54 MattJ Well done Google
09:47:33 jonas’ hah! :)
09:48:57 Zash We're doing XMPP and we're still alive 🎵️
09:53:10 christian MattJ: we must be optimistic, we need better clients. Pidgin should have been improved instead to develop so many other clients to beta and then abandon them. (excuse my horrible english)
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09:54:05 MattJ The truth is Pidgin never was a great XMPP client
09:54:21 MattJ And the same is generally true of all multi-protocol clients
09:56:32 christian I used Gaim :)) and it rocked. It had voice and video on windows95 and it was working with yahoo google and aol.
09:57:47 christian I forgot icq
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10:00:15 Holger MattJ: FWIW my impression wasn't that bad. Functionality was basic bad good enough for most users back then, and it was rock solid, which wasn't true for all clients (looking at all your tracebacks, Gajim). ✎
10:00:29 Holger MattJ: FWIW my impression wasn't that bad. Functionality was basic but good enough for most users back then, and it was rock solid, which wasn't true for all clients (looking at all your tracebacks, Gajim). ✏
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10:02:10 christian https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/GSoC2008/VoiceAndVideo
10:02:23 flow hehe, although I am not sure if I want to use a client written in a non-typesafe language in 2021
10:05:46 Holger I think I did A/V with Pidgin just fine, some years ago.
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10:07:59 Holger ~~flow: Yeah a type safe language most probably would've avoided most of those Gajim traces 😉~~ ✎
10:08:13 Holger flow: Yeah a type-safe language most probably would've avoided most of those Gajim traces 😉 ✏
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10:13:55 flow Holger, you mean statically typed languages would avoided those
10:14:53 Holger Yes yes, I saw that coming.
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10:19:53 christian People identify xmpp with pidgin, for that reason alone we should evolve pidgin and not create a new status symbol. It is like an artifact. Believe me, I know marketing :))
10:22:06 christian You can not say a religion is 2000 years old if you write a bible every 10 years.
10:25:20 mdosch > People identify xmpp with pidgin It is a widely used client but I don't think this is true.
10:25:27 meeeeson christian: I think the number of ppl identifying Pidgin with XMPP is declining statically (for good) :)
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10:52:06 Maranda (thank gods)
10:52:51 jcbrand The Shiny Flakes documentary has lots of scenes where he's using XMPP, even showing addresses like xxx@jabbim.cx And guess what chat client he's using? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15036416/
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10:55:51 wgreenhouse jcbrand: probably he was using tails, where it's still part of the base install
10:57:29 jcbrand He ran a wordpress site on the clear net and had 300kg of drugs in his room (all while being a minor)
10:57:35 jcbrand Somehow I don't think he used Tails
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11:00:23 wgreenhouse ope
11:01:11 jcbrand Fun fact, on his website, he promised not to keep any data on his customers. In reality he had an Excel sheet with IIRC 13000 orders, with names, addresses and what they bought.
11:01:31 jcbrand Many of those people were later prosecuted and he had to go as witness to those trials
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11:03:57 jcbrand I'm tempted to give more spoilers concerning his terrible opsec, but maybe some people want to watch the documentary. It was quite good IMO
11:04:29 wgreenhouse sounds like I should watch this on a day when I need some tragicomedy
11:05:37 christian This is very OT: This is all normal, you never catch the dealers until you have uncovered and arrested the whole network. The dealer is the last to be arrested, and is usually released immediately, because he uncovers the trail to the next network.
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12:01:54 mjk > We're doing XMPP and we're still alive 🎵️ `And when they're dead, we will be still alive`
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12:47:28 bung > Zash wrote: > We're doing XMPP and we're still alive 🎵️ Yes
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12:49:58 bung I don't think Xmpp's going to end.
12:50:41 Zash All good things must come to an end.
12:50:58 Zash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
12:51:49 bung > Zash wrote: > All good things must come to an end. I have need immortality
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12:52:49 Zash Turn evil you say?
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12:53:21 bung What?
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12:54:00 Zash Good things → ends Bad things → IMMORTALITY Therefore: Evil QED
12:54:46 bung Why immortality is bad?
12:55:25 Zash Because it does not end. Good things end. Therefore immortality ≠ good.
12:55:47 Zash Therefore we must turn evil!!11!!1
12:56:58 bung I think immortality is good
12:57:11 bung Relaxing
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13:00:10 bung And why would the software that's been around for twenty-two years end?
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13:04:38 Holger Assuming it won't, it feels quite exciting how we've been involved with the very first decades of a spec that will live on for billions of years.
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13:13:06 mjk BILLIONS
13:13:51 Holger Yes.
13:13:59 Holger Maybe people will remember us as the early pionieers a billion years from now.
13:14:36 Holger Prosody's community repo will hold billions of modules. (hg will cope, it's superior to Git.)
13:15:04 Holger ejabberd will scale to billions of nodes. YY.MM release versioning scheme will become problematic tho.
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13:16:29 Holger Sam will be going nuts due to billions of redundant XEPs for publishing avatars.
13:17:00 MattJ MIX will be nearly deployed
13:17:26 mjk Eh, there's plenty of time til the end of the century to change the versioning scheme to include more Ys
13:18:01 mjk Sorting versions, otoh... ugh
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13:18:45 Sam heh, indeed, the situation is bad enough already, I dread seeing it in a few million years
13:19:00 mjk > MIX will be nearly deployed Despite the billions of "against" and "strongly against"
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16:13:52 millesimus Has anything changed with the newsletter feed? For some reason, my reader keeps loading all feed items since 2008, marking them as unread…
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16:14:39 MattJ I was worried that may happen :)
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16:15:08 MattJ We switched to a new site generator, and some things necessarily changed
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16:17:35 millesimus It happened twice or thrice already, that's why I'm asking. Were there several changes?
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16:21:47 moparisthebest MattJ: have to wonder if Google gives the same answer to matrix fans though...
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16:22:56 MattJ millesimus, that sounds plausible - the first roll-out accidentally switched to summarized articles, instead of including the full post content in the feed. That was fixed, along with some other things, so it's possible that caused the issue. I'd hope it doesn't happen again though, so feel free to shout if it does.
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16:27:14 millesimus Will keep an eye on it. :)
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16:49:34 lovetox goffi
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16:49:48 lovetox FYI, your email server fails for dkim and dmarc
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16:50:05 lovetox DKIM: 'FAIL' mit Domain goffi.org DMARC: 'FAIL'
16:50:11 lovetox this means it lands in spam
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16:50:35 goffi lovetox: oh really? Damn I thought this was properly configured, I'll check it, thanks.
16:50:51 lovetox SPF : PASS though :)
16:51:44 lovetox on the topic, its sad that not more server support #item_expire
16:51:51 lovetox its incredibly useful for stuff like
16:52:13 lovetox posting a Status / Current Music etc to pubsub
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16:52:31 lovetox such information is not very long useful and accurate
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16:52:51 lovetox and its impossible for clients to remove it in all circumstances
16:53:22 lovetox the idea is like whatsapp for example automatically expire it after some time, status for example after 24 hours
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16:58:03 Daniel lovetox: I think we (as a community) have a decent history of creating server side and client side implementations simultaneously at the same time
16:58:49 Daniel If for example you wanted to implement WhatsApp like statuses in your fairly popular client I'm sure server developers can be convinced to implement this
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17:23:50 Holger > on the topic, its sad that not more server support #item_expire Funny, a customer asked me to implement this literally yesterday.
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17:24:43 Holger (Ah, he's joined to this room and spawned the topic, so not a coincidence, heh.)
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17:31:12 lovetox Daniel, i asked the prosody team for example to implement this, and i think i got an email a few days ago which indicates they might consider doing it. This was not meant as a rant. I just took the chance, while the option was discussed at the mailing list, to bring awareness how the option might be useful to users. Because its maybe not evident to server devs.
17:31:54 lovetox in retrospect i probably should not have used the word "sad". its not really a good fit for the situation.
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17:33:38 Daniel A customer of mine recently implemented whatsapp like statuses (for an xmpp client) out of band over HTTP instead of microblogging and pubsub. Which is super sad. I would have loved to be paid to implement this with xmpp
17:33:52 Daniel I actually think this would have worked out pretty nicely
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