XSF Discussion - 2021-09-29


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  530. Ge0rG Did anyone have a look at https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html#future to see what should be promoted?
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  532. Ge0rG jonas’: CS'22 links to inbox/ibr-token instead of xep-0445. That's a minor editorial change, do you want to get a PR?
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  534. jonas’ I like PRs
  535. Ge0rG anything to add in the revision history, or just the content itself?
  536. Ge0rG Not sure how many other Council members are still pending their vote for advancement
  537. emus General unexperience question: Why do we always make it a new XEP? why not update the existing one each year? So referencing would be easier?
  538. emus previous states could be archived somehow?
  539. Ge0rG emus: because archiving old version of XEPs is hard.
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  541. Ge0rG emus: we have this discussion every year, and the TLDR is: we have a process for XEPs, so we use that process even if it's not perfectly suitable for CS, but making a new process for CS would be harder
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  548. emus Ah ok, sorry. Did not knew it. Agreed
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  610. Ge0rG marc: would you be opposed to issuing a Last Call on XEP-0401?
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  612. Sam The fiscal host blog post was merged a few days ago, but it never showed up. Is the website broken?
  613. Sam (or something about the post maybe?)
  614. jonas’ someone needs to poke it manually currently because of docker/travis changes
  615. Zash Does it work locally?
  616. Zash Did someone poke iteam about deploying?
  617. Sam Seems to work locally
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  624. MattJ I'll deploy the website now
  625. Sam Thanks
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  628. MattJ Done
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  637. Ge0rG jonas’: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1110
  638. Ge0rG Holger: does ejabberd implement any of XEP-0379, XEP-0401 and XEP-445?
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  643. Holger Ge0rG, no.
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  647. Ge0rG Holger: do you have plans to?
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  656. Holger I had a go at understanding this stuff just a few days ago (thanks to MattJ for explaining things). So if I got things right, marc's idea was to consume tokens based on XEP-0389 (in order to solve other problems, such as password recovery, in the same go). He has a patch for that. I take it you guys were unhappy with the '389 approach and went for '445 instead. AFAICS I'd mostly have to throw away his patch and start from scratch to go that route 😕
  657. Holger I might do that, but not right now.
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  660. Ge0rG Holger: I wasn't unhappy with 0389, I was not expecting anybody to implement it any time soon
  661. MattJ Same here (I was just typing that)
  662. Holger 🤷‍♂️️ whatever.
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  667. Holger Just saying I think we have 0 lines of "Snikket code" right now (while I was wrongly assuming we did, before) ...
  668. Ge0rG Holger: XEP-445 is an alternative mechanism to 0389, so you could have clients use either.
  669. Holger Yeah.
  670. Holger I'm not complaining about anything, mind 🙂
  671. MattJ You don't even have the ad-hoc commands?
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  674. Holger No.
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  676. Holger (Unrelated to '389 vs. '445, I know. I just had wrong assumptions about the state of affairs 🙂)
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  679. MattJ np
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  684. bung Now is XMPP has received funds?
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  687. Holger It's probably not rocket science, but does require a bit of thought, esp. the failure paths (token valid, registration fails and whatnot) with different DB backends.
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  692. Holger But I see there's quite some interest and I do have some motivation to give into that demand, eventually 🙂 I see how the functionality can be nice to have.
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  694. moparisthebest bung: what
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  696. bung https://xmpp.org/2021/09/the-xsf-as-a-fiscal-host/
  697. bung OH SORRY
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  729. Ge0rG > If the <field/> element type is anything other than "fixed" (see below), it MUST possess a 'var' attribute that uniquely identifies the field in the context of the form (if it is "fixed", it MAY possess a 'var' attribute). So the recent disco#info result on this room was a protocol violation indeed
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  772. Daniel General Compliance suite ramble: we have like 2ish clients that kinda come close to implement it completely. If we keep moving the goal post we will never have more clients that actually implement the whole thing
  773. marc Ge0rG: what was changed in 401?
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  775. Guus Daniel: the document could also be used by third parties creating a proprietary client, as a guideline to 'how to do sensible things with XMPP' - but otherwise, yes, not having public clients that adhere to it is not ideal.
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  778. Ge0rG marc: nothing, it should just get advanced from Deferred to Stable. But I'm looking at it and see things that got moved into 0445, so looks like my last PR wasn't merged?!
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  780. Guus Then again: most of the developers that I'm talking to tend to read up on the documentation of the API of whatever library that they're using, and not-so-much XEPs. Sadly.
  781. Ge0rG Daniel: what's your proposal?
  782. Zash So should I again mention that maybe there should be two documents, one "current best practices" and one "future vision"q
  783. Zash So should I again mention that maybe there should be two documents, one "current best practices" and one "future vision"?
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  785. Guus Yes please mention that again.
  786. Zash "that", again 🙂
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  792. marc I'm not up-to-date, sorry
  793. Guus ba-dum tissshhh
  794. Daniel Nothing I'm just rambling. But maybe some form of stablilty. We started to have annual compliance suits but this somehow seems to put us under the pressure to put something new in every year
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  797. Daniel However there is also value in being a bit more stable with the list of xeps
  798. Daniel I guess that's what I'm saying. Just thinking out loud really
  799. Guus Are we adding XEPs to the new compliance suits that didn't exist in the year before?
  800. Zash We didn't, unless something happens at the last minute
  801. Guus chat isn't that new. You'd think that the set of functionality that's deemed "sensible" does not change much year over year.
  802. Zash There's only a single change between 2021 and 2022, in that XEP-0156 is now required
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  806. Ge0rG Zash: I proposed more changes just a few minutes ago
  807. Ge0rG Also we do have a "Future Developments" section that developers can use to look for exciting new things, and I'd normally not suggest bypassing that for new XEPs
  808. Ge0rG The exception is 0441 which was already part of 0313 before
  809. Ge0rG Some notable 0313 history... https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/547
  810. Ge0rG Can we get into our time machine and just merge that change back in 2017 please?
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  812. Ge0rG marc: history of my proposed changes is https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/874
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  814. Ge0rG (looks like it got lost in gitlab)
  815. Kev I have proposed in the past, I Think, that we have a document that defines what we think is needed to implement a decent client/server, and we version it rather than year it.
  816. Daniel I promise that once we have MUC-PAM you want mam to store groupchats
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  819. Ge0rG Daniel: yes, and that will be defined in the MUC-PAM XEP and not be part of 0313
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  821. Ge0rG Daniel: even if we made 0313 say "MUST NOT store groupchat", a later spec could easily override that
  822. Ge0rG On the other hand, making servers store groupchat without a clear way to query for that data or a clear use case is not a sign of a good protocol design
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  827. Ge0rG But I sound like a broken record again.
  828. Zash Ge0rG: querying or filtering errors is a thing one might think about
  829. Ge0rG Zash: is anyone even storing errors?
  830. Zash Prosody (trunk)
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  832. Kev FWIW, I’d be fine with not advancing MAM and leaving it until we’ve sorted all the XMPP2 type decisions we need to make, but I understand the desire to advance it given its wide use.
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  834. Ge0rG Kev: given its wide use, advancing it is obviously not solving any problems beyond Council and the XSF looking incompetent about our process.
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  840. MattJ If we're not going to advance stuff in wide use, I question the entire process :)
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  842. Ge0rG MattJ: but wouldn't it make sense to compare what we advance with what's actually implemented?
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  856. marc Ge0rG, I thought the new version of 401 referers to the new XEP that defines "your IBR" approach? I don't see this reference
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  858. Ge0rG marc: yes, that PR was never merged
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  869. marc Why is that?
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  871. Ge0rG marc: I think it's because I used gitlab and because we have too few editors
  872. marc Okay, because that would be necessary before we can move 401 to stable IMO
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  875. Ge0rG marc: I agree with that. Would you want a Last Call after https://gitlab.com/xsf/xeps/-/merge_requests/33 is merged?
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  877. marc Yep
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  887. Ge0rG jonas’: ⬆️ would you like to get a github PR of that tomorrow?
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  898. jonas’ Ge0rG, yes
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