XSF Discussion - 2021-10-08


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  148. huhn

    Was the last Office Hour recorded?

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  172. emus

    sam ^ ?

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  205. christian

    I think we should make a strategy how to lobby for xmpp..

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  207. MattJ

    Sounds great

  208. MattJ

    The way to get things done is to do them

  209. christian

    I think people are more open for xmpp then we believe. But there are two aspects. To many clients. And to many servers.

  210. christian

    Peiple like it more simple.

  211. MattJ

    So some of the client and server projects should stop development and be taken down?

  212. christian

    To much energy wasted on to many clients and all are not "perfect"

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  214. MattJ

    So which ones should be allowed to continue, and which ones should we force to stop development? (and how can we stop them?)

  215. christian

    MattJ: wrong aproach

  216. MattJ

    Then explain to me what you're suggesting the right approach is :)

  217. christian

    I am thinking about something like a organization of develipers. A scrum . today we make your house tomorrow we make my house.

  218. MattJ

    I don't see how that helps

  219. MattJ

    There will still be "too many clients" and "too many servers"

  220. jonas’

    if only there was a project which tried to gather a good client for each platform and pair them with a well-configured and easy to install server

  221. jonas’

    bonus if that project can gather some funding in order to support those clients in becoming better.

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  223. christian

    I thought to organize the developers somehow into some kind of association or foundation, and then they can vote on what the priorities are. I think it is important to have priorities, and to proceed methodically, whose house will be developed first can then be voted on

  224. Kev

    christian: Feel free to create such an organisation :)

  225. Zash

    What's that, some kind of XMPP Software Foundation?

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  227. jonas’

    christian, how will you incentivize developers working in their freetime on stuff to work on stuff they don't enjoy working on?

  228. jonas’

    (if that stuff gets prioritized by the majority)

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  230. christian

    Wow strong reaction

  231. jonas’

    I mean that's the gist of it, isn't it?

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  234. christian

    Its a unfinished ideea. Sorry.

  235. jonas’

    you need to get people to work on the not-so-fun things to get polished clients

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  237. mathieui

    christian: getting people to do thing they don't like to do, for free, is hard

  238. Holger

    christian, I can totally relate to your point, splitting up the (very) scarce manpower into several competing projects (with the result that none of them work really well) feels like an insane waste. Problem is, there's no solution. Except maybe with lots of $$$ 🙂

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  240. Kev

    Also, is it really a waste if people *want* to do what they're doing with their spare time? :)

  241. Holger

    christian, _suggesting_ a dev to work on $otherproject instead is pointless, the dev was aware of $otherproject before your suggestion and has his reasons to prefer his own. _Forcing_ a dev obviously won't work.

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  245. Holger

    Kev, if the question is "what's the optimal allocation of our scarce resources to maximize outcome" then having several competing projects doesn't seem like the answer to me, right. If you ask a different question then it may just be the right answer indeed 🙂

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  247. Holger

    (BTW it's not just about spare time projects in my book.)

  248. MattJ

    Also skills. Imagine that the first thing the org votes is that "XMPP on iOS is terrible and should be our #1 priority", but it's impossible to develop for iOS without Apple hardware, an Apple developer account ($$$) and knowledge of the Apple APIs, OS and ecosystem

  249. MattJ

    and most XMPP developers lack some or all these requirements

  250. MattJ

    (and this is separate from the motivation to actually work on this ecosystem even if they do have the skills and resources - I've spoken to many iOS devs who just don't want to spend their free time working on iOS stuff)

  251. Holger

    That's stuff that actually _could_ be tackled by some organization/whatever tho. I think incentives is the real issue.

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  253. Kev

    > (BTW it's not just about spare time projects in my book.) Sure, but it's probably unlikely that Process One are going to sign up to do some work on Isode's M-Link :)

  254. christian

    It should be explained to the developers that we are in a vicious circle, bad clients -> few users -> little money -> even fewer developers -> even worse clients -> even fewer users etc... I think you should explain to the developers that the network is in trouble.

  255. mdosch

    Bad clients?

  256. Holger

    Kev, right, I'm just babbling about why exactly this seems unrealstic. Might be partly due to how market economics work, which doesn't necessarily yield optimal allocation.

  257. christian

    mdosch: yes, we must pilish the clients.

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  259. Holger

    christian, I don't think developers need explanations. They're probably aware of the problems you see.

  260. christian

    mdosch: yes, we must polish the clients.

  261. Kev

    I think if the point is "If all the XMPP devs worked together they could potentially make better (but fewer) projects" it's fundamentally likely to be correct. Getting that to happen sounds like an insurmountable problem, but maybe it just needs someone smarter and better with people than me.

  262. Zash

    And if all of humanity worked together we could probably solve all kinds of problems.

  263. Kev

    Quite.

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  265. christian

    Zash: But I believe that developers are on a higher level than politicians and the military. We should succeed in things that they do not succeed in

  266. Holger

    christian, question is, who is "we". You? 🙂

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  268. christian

    We all here.

  269. Sam

    huhn: it was recorded, I just need to finish editing and post it. I'm off work today, so soon

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  275. Holger

    christian, I've often seen users / community members stating great (or not so great) ideas about what others (i.e., developers) should do different from what they're doing right now. That's the part that doesn't work. If they wanted to do things differently, they would just do it. The assumption that you have a great idea for them they didn't think of themselves is usually wrong.

  276. Holger

    christian, so what makes more sense is thinking about what you could do _yourself_. (Which was MattJ's initial response.)

  277. Daniel

    Be the change you want to see in the ecosystem

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  280. MattJ

    Which is what many of us are doing daily, and no amount of voting by others is going to stop that :)

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  285. christian

    Daniel: I use and recommend your client even though the blabber people are my friends. Maybe we should start here.

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  289. christian

    Holger: I am on telegram a lot (and many others) trying to persuade people to move. Success rate is 5...10%. You must see me as a kind of "sales department".

  290. christian

    Make good things and talk about it.

  291. Zash

    Telling people to switch mostly just makes people dig in and become defensive in my experience.

  292. christian

    I am the 'talk about it' department

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  295. christian

    No, not at all. The ux is the big thumbstone. Clients are designed for nerds

  296. christian

    Not for dummies

  297. christian

    The interfaces are no "toys"

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  301. emus

    christian, we have social media accounts and we are currently polishing the XMPP website and also advertise clients better. That also means that potential developers can see existing projects. We are also happy to publish content and news on XMPP

  302. emus

    but also support developing

  303. emus

    by providing helpful information

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  310. christian

    If anyone feels offended I am sorry. Did not mean to attack anyone. Everyone muddles on as before and we remain friends.

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  312. MattJ

    I'm not aware that anyone feels offended, don't worry. But you raised some proposals and others raised questions/concerns with those proposals. You're right that we're all muddling on doing the things we feel are important, I hope you do also :)

  313. MattJ

    Another problem is that it can feel like little progress is being made when you only see a small part of it, but there is a lot of activity going on around the XMPP ecosystem. I don't think the network is in such danger as you described.

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  315. emus

    In that regard I recommend to subscribe to the newsletter through on of the channels 😉 😛

  316. MattJ

    (and help distribute it)

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  320. emus

    👍️

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  323. ralphm

    Nandi & FF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsDgrKdczAE

  324. ralphm

    oops

  325. christian

    Okay, next time when test users will tell me that xmpp has not so modern and up-to-date clients, and are not intuitive enough, I will disagree, and say that it just seems that way, because you don't have the overview of what's going on in the ecosystem.

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  327. emus

    Well, I think we are not arguing against this point, that many clients lag one or the other feature, but we currently have no better idea part from that most here love to keep it open. There are also many commerically developed client applications or XMPP implementation. However, many go with leaving the open side of the network behind them

  328. emus

    Well, I think we are not arguing against this point, that many clients lag one or the other feature, but we currently have no better idea part from that most here love to keep it open. There are also many commercially developed client applications or XMPP implementation. However, many go with leaving the open side of the network behind them

  329. christian

    emus: we had pidgin. A legend, and we let it die.

  330. Zash

    Pidgin ain't dead tho

  331. Zash

    There's a *lot* of work to bring its XMPP support up to date, but it's not dead

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  333. Zash

    There's a *lot* of work to do to bring its XMPP support up to date, but it's not dead

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  335. emus

    I think Pidgin is not what many connect with XMPP anymore, it had XMPP as one of the implementations.

  336. jonas’

    unfortunately, it *is* in fact what many connect with XMPP

  337. jonas’

    it is a cautionary tale

  338. jonas’

    not a legend

  339. emus

    Zash, actually I am interested, where can one follow it. jonas' yes agreed

  340. emus

    Zash, actually I am interested, where can one follow it? jonas' yes agreed

  341. ralphm

    "we" didn't let anything die. "we" don't currently develop any software. To be honest, Pidgin was never that great, and its XMPP implementation had many issues from the start.

  342. MattJ

    > Zash> Pidgin ain't dead tho I think you mean it's... resting

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  346. Kev

    Beautiful plumage!

  347. MattJ

    🥁

  348. ralphm

    Heh

  349. Zash

    What is dead may never die!

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  352. christian

    Nice to talk to you. Have a nice day

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  357. Sam

    Going back through, that presentation was *really* rough (I mean, more so than mine normally are). Everything is all kinds of out of order and badly explained. Sorry about that. Still, it's available now (or will be shortly): https://youtu.be/lprIwxyPY2E

  358. Sam

    /cc huhn

  359. emus

    Thank you Sam. I think it is a good start and we need to evaluate more anyway. People should get attention to it and provide feedback now

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  384. christian

    you must cut it, it has 1 hour and 20 minutes and after 24 minutes it is over, after this it has black creen until 45 when it starts again from the beginning and other at 1:12 and then 8 minutes from your desctop ...

  385. emus

    Sam:

  386. Sam

    Yah, no idea how that happened, I'm exporting a new one now.

  387. christian

    another one who hates me now :))

  388. Sam

    What?

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  391. christian

    I was joking !!!

  392. Sam

    Okay; I guess I missed some context, IDGI. Thanks for the report anyways!

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  394. emus

    christian: No one hates you. If you feel refused it is maybe because often people tell to change things, but it all here are volunteers and already try to but it usually does not come with that we or others delegate to each others. At least we ask to do things kindly or rather expect that changes are made by the one who claims them. So, this is why it is not so easy here to just drop a recommendation and expect it to be picked up right away. If you want to propose clear and feasible suggestion in communication you can do so in the github repository https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org

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  396. emus

    christian: No one hates you. If you feel refused it is maybe because often people tell to change things, but all here are volunteers and already try to but it usually does not come with that we or others delegate to each others. At least we ask to do things kindly or rather expect that changes are made by the one who claims them. So, this is why it is not so easy here to just drop a recommendation and expect it to be picked up right away. If you want to propose clear and feasible suggestion in communication you can do so in the github repository https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org

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  454. moparisthebest

    > I think if the point is "If all the XMPP devs worked together they could potentially make better (but fewer) projects" it's fundamentally likely to be correct.

  455. moparisthebest

    How many different client and server implementations does whatever the 1 company behind matrix have now?

  456. Zash

    At least 3

  457. moparisthebest

    How many different client and server implementations does whatever the 1 company behind matrix is now named have now?

  458. moparisthebest

    So that's likely untrue then, I mean, anecdotally

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  462. Zash

    There are too many Matrix clients! I'm just gonna stick to XMPP!

  463. Holger

    Problem with Matrix is you need to pick the right combination of client + server, otherwise nothing works.

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  465. christian

    emus, Hoo, hold the horses. :)))) I'm here because the group is called "Discussion", and I don't want to give orders to anyone. I'm trying to stimulate a conversation with pros and cons, of course, and I'm not at all hurt if I don't get my way. I would be the happiest person on earth if I could make clear and feasible suggestions. But I am a practical person and I try to steer you by bringing you feedback "from the front". If I talk to someone and try to convince them to use XMPP, and they openly tell me why they don't like it, and I hear the same thing from several people, then I have the gall to tell you here. What you make of it is then again a whole other thing

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  472. christian

    I sincerely hope that you do not want to go the matrix way. It is a bad way. It leads to nowhere. We should take IRC and NEWS as a model. Speaking of role models. But make everything a little more playful, clients need to be like toys. People like to play.

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  474. theTedd

    pidgins aren't real - they're government surveillance drones!

  475. theTedd

    christian, nobody is taking offence to what you say, or trying to insult you. I think we all understand and agree with your underlying point - that it would be better if everyone put their collective efforts into a small number of projects - that would definitely produce nicer, more polished clients; the issue is not that people don't agree with this point.

  476. theTedd

    The issue is one of motivation. People have limited free time and their motivation to work on their own projects (instead of someone else's) is that it matches their own vision. And since everyone's vision is different, if they were working on the same project then they would all be pulling in different directions - and that brings its own set of progress limiting issues.

  477. theTedd

    The way we get people to work towards the same vision in our current world is with money; if you offer developers a pile of money then you can motivate them to work on your project and work towards your vision (they won't necessarily agree with that vision, but that's not their motivation.)

  478. emus

    christian: ok there has been a website to organise with developers only actually and I agree that there is an issue to deal with resources. For example this why I try to improve coordination and communication between users, developers and knowledge

  479. MattJ

    https://snikket.org/about/goals/ 🤔

  480. moparisthebest

    <opinion> lack of polish/features is not an actual problem with XMPP, people use whatever client with whatever features anyone else craps out as long as their friends are there, it's 100% network effect and nothing else </opinion>

  481. moparisthebest

    unless you actually believe people who say ridiculous things like "if only I could set a picture as a background on my chat I could switch everyone I know to XMPP" but I do not

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  484. theTedd

    moparisthebest, while that's largely true, if it's a pile of crap to begin with then people won't jump on for there to be any network effect

  485. moparisthebest

    "I need a cryptocoin integrated with my messenger or I can't use it" - no one ever

  486. Kev

    My experience of that is that the honest truth is "if only I could set a picture as a background on my chat I could switch everyone I know to needing a different reason to switch".

  487. moparisthebest

    Kev, exactly

  488. moparisthebest

    theTedd, right, but I don't think that's been the case for quite a long time, no one is using pidgin on google talk anymore

  489. Zash

    moparisthebest, you forgot the infinite marketing budget to bootstrap that network effect

  490. moparisthebest

    so that's all that is missing, no dev work required !

  491. Zash

    correct

  492. Zash

    we're not needed

  493. moparisthebest

    anyone friends with some VC people who like throwing millions at something with no business model ?

  494. moparisthebest

    I mean it worked for signal...

  495. moparisthebest

    me neither...

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  497. Zash

    Sorry, I don't think my parents can give out large enough zero-interest loans to get anywhere.

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  499. Daniel

    > anyone friends with some VC people who like throwing millions at something with no business model ? > I mean it worked for signal... > me neither... I think initially it was largely tax payer money that got them started

  500. Daniel

    I don't know how to get that either though

  501. theTedd

    there is a definite difference between a UI designed by a developer and one designed by a designer; we are quite lacking in "ooh, shiny" in terms of client interfaces (which is ultimately what users care about, after basic features are taken care of)

  502. christian

    A short story: My wife and our son write each other every day A HEART. Sometimes a larger sometimes a smaller sometimes a kiss. They do not have much to say to each other, The son is in Berlin on assembly she in the Erzgebirge at home, and then they "ping" so on. Telegram and Whatsapp offer such games. And you can show emotion with it. Think about it. I can not convince you to switch to XMPP because you can not send a HEART.

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  505. theTedd

  506. MattJ

  507. Zash

    And 60% of the time, that "missing feature" already exists.

  508. christian

    yes but wit telegram it is huge and animated

  509. Zash

    But no, that doesn't fit the "XMPP is dead" narratcive

  510. MattJ

    OH

  511. moparisthebest

    so if we only add animated hearts then everyone will adopt xmpp

  512. Daniel

    If only the heart was animated I could finally move everyone to Conversations

  513. theTedd

    <large_animated_heart.gif>

  514. Zash

    Yaxim Emoji Hugification™®

  515. moparisthebest

    oh and user-settable backgrounds

  516. moparisthebest

    and cryptocoins

  517. Holger

    Most romantic show stopper ever.

  518. moparisthebest

    </skepticism>

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  521. MattJ

    Meanwhile my 4 year-old is on XMPP, and successfully sends hearts *all the time*. She is unable to use WhatsApp, Signal or Telegram because she does not have a phone.

  522. wurstsalat

    > Most romantic show stopper ever. :D

  523. Holger

    MattJ, I'm slowly using my 12 year-old to WhatsApp after years of XMPP usage 🙁

  524. moparisthebest

    same MattJ , my 9 year old has been using XMPP for over half her life :P

  525. christian

    You are cold-hearted developers and do not understand that there are many mothers/son and mothers/daughter relationships that can only be represented with a huge animated heart. :)))

  526. MattJ

    Mmmmhm

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  528. moparisthebest

    christian, but XMPP and most clients fully support sending huge animated hearts

  529. Holger

    The older the kids get, the stronger the network effect.

  530. Holger

    (slowly using? loosing.)

  531. Holger

    (I mean he obviously always used WA to talk to WA-only contacts. But he's slowly starting to use WA to talk to *me*.)

  532. theTedd

    christian, we are people too - we do understand; the thing you're saying is not possible is _entirely possible right now_

  533. Zash

    https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/source/skype/289/red-heart_2764-fe0f.png

  534. theTedd

    Zash, that's not animated 😥

  535. christian

    okay, okay I shut up :))))))))

  536. Zash

    theTedd: Clear proof that XMPP is in fact completely dead!

  537. theTedd

    <sad_trombone_music.mp3>

  538. Holger

    Does Matrix have animated hearts?

  539. theTedd

    Join XMPP - now with AnimatedHearts™ Technology!

  540. Zash

    That was apparently a PNG. How the heck is it animated?

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  542. christian

    a Gif?

  543. Zash

    Only the superior 80's technology in the form of GIF has such amazing cutting-edge features

  544. moparisthebest

    https://burtrum.org/up/f8842ba4-5763-421b-afac-59a6a9a89f8a/heart.gif

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  546. theTedd

    👍

  547. moparisthebest

    I have revived XMPP! is that acceptable christian ?

  548. christian

    yes :)

  549. moparisthebest

    problem solved, signal and whatsapp are no more!

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  552. theTedd

    Zash, there was MNG, but it didn't catch on; though there are some weird animated PNG formats in existence too

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  554. christian

    there are many graphiX guys who could paint emoticons .. we just have to create the plugins for it

  555. moparisthebest

    is webp still what all the cool kids are using these days or have they moved on?

  556. theTedd

    webp and hvec

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  560. Zash

    was avif something gfix people scare their kids with or?

  561. theTedd

    *hevc

  562. theTedd

    quiet, or I'll compress you in a container

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  565. christian

    My wife sends the son a pair of glasses and a broom that means "Did you clean your room? Can I come to check" - he sends back a heart and a girl, which means "girlfriend is here I love you" :))))

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  568. Wojtek

    Egyptians with their hieroglyphics are making a comeback? ;-)

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  571. christian

    Wojtek, +1 :))

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  575. millesimus

    > <opinion> lack of polish/features is not an actual problem with XMPP, people use whatever client with whatever features anyone else craps out as long as their friends are there, it's 100% network effect and nothing else </opinion> +1, but this also means that the only way to move people to xmpp is by the gentle force of not using silos.

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  584. theTedd

    to get a network effect, you first need a critical mass of users; you can't attract those users by network effect, so first you need something shiny

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  826. jjrh

    I don't have a iPhone so I can't say personally, but I have heard a lot of complaints about iOS clients.

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  829. MattJ

    It's rapidly improving over the past year or so

  830. MattJ

    Monal, Siskin and now Snikket are under active development on iOS

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