XSF Discussion - 2021-10-08

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  148. huhn Was the last Office Hour recorded?
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  172. emus sam ^ ?
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  205. christian I think we should make a strategy how to lobby for xmpp..
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  207. MattJ Sounds great
  208. MattJ The way to get things done is to do them
  209. christian I think people are more open for xmpp then we believe. But there are two aspects. To many clients. And to many servers.
  210. christian Peiple like it more simple.
  211. MattJ So some of the client and server projects should stop development and be taken down?
  212. christian To much energy wasted on to many clients and all are not "perfect"
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  214. MattJ So which ones should be allowed to continue, and which ones should we force to stop development? (and how can we stop them?)
  215. christian MattJ: wrong aproach
  216. MattJ Then explain to me what you're suggesting the right approach is :)
  217. christian I am thinking about something like a organization of develipers. A scrum . today we make your house tomorrow we make my house.
  218. MattJ I don't see how that helps
  219. MattJ There will still be "too many clients" and "too many servers"
  220. jonas’ if only there was a project which tried to gather a good client for each platform and pair them with a well-configured and easy to install server
  221. jonas’ bonus if that project can gather some funding in order to support those clients in becoming better.
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  223. christian I thought to organize the developers somehow into some kind of association or foundation, and then they can vote on what the priorities are. I think it is important to have priorities, and to proceed methodically, whose house will be developed first can then be voted on
  224. Kev christian: Feel free to create such an organisation :)
  225. Zash What's that, some kind of XMPP Software Foundation?
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  227. jonas’ christian, how will you incentivize developers working in their freetime on stuff to work on stuff they don't enjoy working on?
  228. jonas’ (if that stuff gets prioritized by the majority)
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  230. christian Wow strong reaction
  231. jonas’ I mean that's the gist of it, isn't it?
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  234. christian Its a unfinished ideea. Sorry.
  235. jonas’ you need to get people to work on the not-so-fun things to get polished clients
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  237. mathieui christian: getting people to do thing they don't like to do, for free, is hard
  238. Holger christian, I can totally relate to your point, splitting up the (very) scarce manpower into several competing projects (with the result that none of them work really well) feels like an insane waste. Problem is, there's no solution. Except maybe with lots of $$$ 🙂
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  240. Kev Also, is it really a waste if people *want* to do what they're doing with their spare time? :)
  241. Holger christian, _suggesting_ a dev to work on $otherproject instead is pointless, the dev was aware of $otherproject before your suggestion and has his reasons to prefer his own. _Forcing_ a dev obviously won't work.
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  245. Holger Kev, if the question is "what's the optimal allocation of our scarce resources to maximize outcome" then having several competing projects doesn't seem like the answer to me, right. If you ask a different question then it may just be the right answer indeed 🙂
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  247. Holger (BTW it's not just about spare time projects in my book.)
  248. MattJ Also skills. Imagine that the first thing the org votes is that "XMPP on iOS is terrible and should be our #1 priority", but it's impossible to develop for iOS without Apple hardware, an Apple developer account ($$$) and knowledge of the Apple APIs, OS and ecosystem
  249. MattJ and most XMPP developers lack some or all these requirements
  250. MattJ (and this is separate from the motivation to actually work on this ecosystem even if they do have the skills and resources - I've spoken to many iOS devs who just don't want to spend their free time working on iOS stuff)
  251. Holger That's stuff that actually _could_ be tackled by some organization/whatever tho. I think incentives is the real issue.
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  253. Kev > (BTW it's not just about spare time projects in my book.) Sure, but it's probably unlikely that Process One are going to sign up to do some work on Isode's M-Link :)
  254. christian It should be explained to the developers that we are in a vicious circle, bad clients -> few users -> little money -> even fewer developers -> even worse clients -> even fewer users etc... I think you should explain to the developers that the network is in trouble.
  255. mdosch Bad clients?
  256. Holger Kev, right, I'm just babbling about why exactly this seems unrealstic. Might be partly due to how market economics work, which doesn't necessarily yield optimal allocation.
  257. christian mdosch: yes, we must pilish the clients.
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  259. Holger christian, I don't think developers need explanations. They're probably aware of the problems you see.
  260. christian mdosch: yes, we must polish the clients.
  261. Kev I think if the point is "If all the XMPP devs worked together they could potentially make better (but fewer) projects" it's fundamentally likely to be correct. Getting that to happen sounds like an insurmountable problem, but maybe it just needs someone smarter and better with people than me.
  262. Zash And if all of humanity worked together we could probably solve all kinds of problems.
  263. Kev Quite.
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  265. christian Zash: But I believe that developers are on a higher level than politicians and the military. We should succeed in things that they do not succeed in
  266. Holger christian, question is, who is "we". You? 🙂
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  268. christian We all here.
  269. Sam huhn: it was recorded, I just need to finish editing and post it. I'm off work today, so soon
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  275. Holger christian, I've often seen users / community members stating great (or not so great) ideas about what others (i.e., developers) should do different from what they're doing right now. That's the part that doesn't work. If they wanted to do things differently, they would just do it. The assumption that you have a great idea for them they didn't think of themselves is usually wrong.
  276. Holger christian, so what makes more sense is thinking about what you could do _yourself_. (Which was MattJ's initial response.)
  277. Daniel Be the change you want to see in the ecosystem
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  280. MattJ Which is what many of us are doing daily, and no amount of voting by others is going to stop that :)
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  285. christian Daniel: I use and recommend your client even though the blabber people are my friends. Maybe we should start here.
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  289. christian Holger: I am on telegram a lot (and many others) trying to persuade people to move. Success rate is 5...10%. You must see me as a kind of "sales department".
  290. christian Make good things and talk about it.
  291. Zash Telling people to switch mostly just makes people dig in and become defensive in my experience.
  292. christian I am the 'talk about it' department
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  295. christian No, not at all. The ux is the big thumbstone. Clients are designed for nerds
  296. christian Not for dummies
  297. christian The interfaces are no "toys"
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  301. emus christian, we have social media accounts and we are currently polishing the XMPP website and also advertise clients better. That also means that potential developers can see existing projects. We are also happy to publish content and news on XMPP
  302. emus but also support developing
  303. emus by providing helpful information
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  310. christian If anyone feels offended I am sorry. Did not mean to attack anyone. Everyone muddles on as before and we remain friends.
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  312. MattJ I'm not aware that anyone feels offended, don't worry. But you raised some proposals and others raised questions/concerns with those proposals. You're right that we're all muddling on doing the things we feel are important, I hope you do also :)
  313. MattJ Another problem is that it can feel like little progress is being made when you only see a small part of it, but there is a lot of activity going on around the XMPP ecosystem. I don't think the network is in such danger as you described.
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  315. emus In that regard I recommend to subscribe to the newsletter through on of the channels 😉 😛
  316. MattJ (and help distribute it)
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  320. emus 👍️
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  323. ralphm Nandi & FF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsDgrKdczAE
  324. ralphm oops
  325. christian Okay, next time when test users will tell me that xmpp has not so modern and up-to-date clients, and are not intuitive enough, I will disagree, and say that it just seems that way, because you don't have the overview of what's going on in the ecosystem.
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  327. emus Well, I think we are not arguing against this point, that many clients lag one or the other feature, but we currently have no better idea part from that most here love to keep it open. There are also many commerically developed client applications or XMPP implementation. However, many go with leaving the open side of the network behind them
  328. emus Well, I think we are not arguing against this point, that many clients lag one or the other feature, but we currently have no better idea part from that most here love to keep it open. There are also many commercially developed client applications or XMPP implementation. However, many go with leaving the open side of the network behind them
  329. christian emus: we had pidgin. A legend, and we let it die.
  330. Zash Pidgin ain't dead tho
  331. Zash There's a *lot* of work to bring its XMPP support up to date, but it's not dead
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  333. Zash There's a *lot* of work to do to bring its XMPP support up to date, but it's not dead
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  335. emus I think Pidgin is not what many connect with XMPP anymore, it had XMPP as one of the implementations.
  336. jonas’ unfortunately, it *is* in fact what many connect with XMPP
  337. jonas’ it is a cautionary tale
  338. jonas’ not a legend
  339. emus Zash, actually I am interested, where can one follow it. jonas' yes agreed
  340. emus Zash, actually I am interested, where can one follow it? jonas' yes agreed
  341. ralphm "we" didn't let anything die. "we" don't currently develop any software. To be honest, Pidgin was never that great, and its XMPP implementation had many issues from the start.
  342. MattJ > Zash> Pidgin ain't dead tho I think you mean it's... resting
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  346. Kev Beautiful plumage!
  347. MattJ 🥁
  348. ralphm Heh
  349. Zash What is dead may never die!
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  352. christian Nice to talk to you. Have a nice day
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  357. Sam Going back through, that presentation was *really* rough (I mean, more so than mine normally are). Everything is all kinds of out of order and badly explained. Sorry about that. Still, it's available now (or will be shortly): https://youtu.be/lprIwxyPY2E
  358. Sam /cc huhn
  359. emus Thank you Sam. I think it is a good start and we need to evaluate more anyway. People should get attention to it and provide feedback now
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  384. christian you must cut it, it has 1 hour and 20 minutes and after 24 minutes it is over, after this it has black creen until 45 when it starts again from the beginning and other at 1:12 and then 8 minutes from your desctop ...
  385. emus Sam:
  386. Sam Yah, no idea how that happened, I'm exporting a new one now.
  387. christian another one who hates me now :))
  388. Sam What?
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  391. christian I was joking !!!
  392. Sam Okay; I guess I missed some context, IDGI. Thanks for the report anyways!
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  394. emus christian: No one hates you. If you feel refused it is maybe because often people tell to change things, but it all here are volunteers and already try to but it usually does not come with that we or others delegate to each others. At least we ask to do things kindly or rather expect that changes are made by the one who claims them. So, this is why it is not so easy here to just drop a recommendation and expect it to be picked up right away. If you want to propose clear and feasible suggestion in communication you can do so in the github repository https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org
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  396. emus christian: No one hates you. If you feel refused it is maybe because often people tell to change things, but all here are volunteers and already try to but it usually does not come with that we or others delegate to each others. At least we ask to do things kindly or rather expect that changes are made by the one who claims them. So, this is why it is not so easy here to just drop a recommendation and expect it to be picked up right away. If you want to propose clear and feasible suggestion in communication you can do so in the github repository https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org
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  454. moparisthebest > I think if the point is "If all the XMPP devs worked together they could potentially make better (but fewer) projects" it's fundamentally likely to be correct.
  455. moparisthebest How many different client and server implementations does whatever the 1 company behind matrix have now?
  456. Zash At least 3
  457. moparisthebest How many different client and server implementations does whatever the 1 company behind matrix is now named have now?
  458. moparisthebest So that's likely untrue then, I mean, anecdotally
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  462. Zash There are too many Matrix clients! I'm just gonna stick to XMPP!
  463. Holger Problem with Matrix is you need to pick the right combination of client + server, otherwise nothing works.
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  465. christian emus, Hoo, hold the horses. :)))) I'm here because the group is called "Discussion", and I don't want to give orders to anyone. I'm trying to stimulate a conversation with pros and cons, of course, and I'm not at all hurt if I don't get my way. I would be the happiest person on earth if I could make clear and feasible suggestions. But I am a practical person and I try to steer you by bringing you feedback "from the front". If I talk to someone and try to convince them to use XMPP, and they openly tell me why they don't like it, and I hear the same thing from several people, then I have the gall to tell you here. What you make of it is then again a whole other thing
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  472. christian I sincerely hope that you do not want to go the matrix way. It is a bad way. It leads to nowhere. We should take IRC and NEWS as a model. Speaking of role models. But make everything a little more playful, clients need to be like toys. People like to play.
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  474. theTedd pidgins aren't real - they're government surveillance drones!
  475. theTedd christian, nobody is taking offence to what you say, or trying to insult you. I think we all understand and agree with your underlying point - that it would be better if everyone put their collective efforts into a small number of projects - that would definitely produce nicer, more polished clients; the issue is not that people don't agree with this point.
  476. theTedd The issue is one of motivation. People have limited free time and their motivation to work on their own projects (instead of someone else's) is that it matches their own vision. And since everyone's vision is different, if they were working on the same project then they would all be pulling in different directions - and that brings its own set of progress limiting issues.
  477. theTedd The way we get people to work towards the same vision in our current world is with money; if you offer developers a pile of money then you can motivate them to work on your project and work towards your vision (they won't necessarily agree with that vision, but that's not their motivation.)
  478. emus christian: ok there has been a website to organise with developers only actually and I agree that there is an issue to deal with resources. For example this why I try to improve coordination and communication between users, developers and knowledge
  479. MattJ https://snikket.org/about/goals/ 🤔
  480. moparisthebest <opinion> lack of polish/features is not an actual problem with XMPP, people use whatever client with whatever features anyone else craps out as long as their friends are there, it's 100% network effect and nothing else </opinion>
  481. moparisthebest unless you actually believe people who say ridiculous things like "if only I could set a picture as a background on my chat I could switch everyone I know to XMPP" but I do not
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  484. theTedd moparisthebest, while that's largely true, if it's a pile of crap to begin with then people won't jump on for there to be any network effect
  485. moparisthebest "I need a cryptocoin integrated with my messenger or I can't use it" - no one ever
  486. Kev My experience of that is that the honest truth is "if only I could set a picture as a background on my chat I could switch everyone I know to needing a different reason to switch".
  487. moparisthebest Kev, exactly
  488. moparisthebest theTedd, right, but I don't think that's been the case for quite a long time, no one is using pidgin on google talk anymore
  489. Zash moparisthebest, you forgot the infinite marketing budget to bootstrap that network effect
  490. moparisthebest so that's all that is missing, no dev work required !
  491. Zash correct
  492. Zash we're not needed
  493. moparisthebest anyone friends with some VC people who like throwing millions at something with no business model ?
  494. moparisthebest I mean it worked for signal...
  495. moparisthebest me neither...
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  497. Zash Sorry, I don't think my parents can give out large enough zero-interest loans to get anywhere.
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  499. Daniel > anyone friends with some VC people who like throwing millions at something with no business model ? > I mean it worked for signal... > me neither... I think initially it was largely tax payer money that got them started
  500. Daniel I don't know how to get that either though
  501. theTedd there is a definite difference between a UI designed by a developer and one designed by a designer; we are quite lacking in "ooh, shiny" in terms of client interfaces (which is ultimately what users care about, after basic features are taken care of)
  502. christian A short story: My wife and our son write each other every day A HEART. Sometimes a larger sometimes a smaller sometimes a kiss. They do not have much to say to each other, The son is in Berlin on assembly she in the Erzgebirge at home, and then they "ping" so on. Telegram and Whatsapp offer such games. And you can show emotion with it. Think about it. I can not convince you to switch to XMPP because you can not send a HEART.
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  505. theTedd
  506. MattJ
  507. Zash And 60% of the time, that "missing feature" already exists.
  508. christian yes but wit telegram it is huge and animated
  509. Zash But no, that doesn't fit the "XMPP is dead" narratcive
  510. MattJ OH
  511. moparisthebest so if we only add animated hearts then everyone will adopt xmpp
  512. Daniel If only the heart was animated I could finally move everyone to Conversations
  513. theTedd <large_animated_heart.gif>
  514. Zash Yaxim Emoji Hugification™®
  515. moparisthebest oh and user-settable backgrounds
  516. moparisthebest and cryptocoins
  517. Holger Most romantic show stopper ever.
  518. moparisthebest </skepticism>
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  521. MattJ Meanwhile my 4 year-old is on XMPP, and successfully sends hearts *all the time*. She is unable to use WhatsApp, Signal or Telegram because she does not have a phone.
  522. wurstsalat > Most romantic show stopper ever. :D
  523. Holger MattJ, I'm slowly using my 12 year-old to WhatsApp after years of XMPP usage 🙁
  524. moparisthebest same MattJ , my 9 year old has been using XMPP for over half her life :P
  525. christian You are cold-hearted developers and do not understand that there are many mothers/son and mothers/daughter relationships that can only be represented with a huge animated heart. :)))
  526. MattJ Mmmmhm
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  528. moparisthebest christian, but XMPP and most clients fully support sending huge animated hearts
  529. Holger The older the kids get, the stronger the network effect.
  530. Holger (slowly using? loosing.)
  531. Holger (I mean he obviously always used WA to talk to WA-only contacts. But he's slowly starting to use WA to talk to *me*.)
  532. theTedd christian, we are people too - we do understand; the thing you're saying is not possible is _entirely possible right now_
  533. Zash https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/source/skype/289/red-heart_2764-fe0f.png
  534. theTedd Zash, that's not animated 😥
  535. christian okay, okay I shut up :))))))))
  536. Zash theTedd: Clear proof that XMPP is in fact completely dead!
  537. theTedd <sad_trombone_music.mp3>
  538. Holger Does Matrix have animated hearts?
  539. theTedd Join XMPP - now with AnimatedHearts™ Technology!
  540. Zash That was apparently a PNG. How the heck is it animated?
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  542. christian a Gif?
  543. Zash Only the superior 80's technology in the form of GIF has such amazing cutting-edge features
  544. moparisthebest https://burtrum.org/up/f8842ba4-5763-421b-afac-59a6a9a89f8a/heart.gif
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  546. theTedd 👍
  547. moparisthebest I have revived XMPP! is that acceptable christian ?
  548. christian yes :)
  549. moparisthebest problem solved, signal and whatsapp are no more!
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  552. theTedd Zash, there was MNG, but it didn't catch on; though there are some weird animated PNG formats in existence too
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  554. christian there are many graphiX guys who could paint emoticons .. we just have to create the plugins for it
  555. moparisthebest is webp still what all the cool kids are using these days or have they moved on?
  556. theTedd webp and hvec
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  560. Zash was avif something gfix people scare their kids with or?
  561. theTedd *hevc
  562. theTedd quiet, or I'll compress you in a container
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  565. christian My wife sends the son a pair of glasses and a broom that means "Did you clean your room? Can I come to check" - he sends back a heart and a girl, which means "girlfriend is here I love you" :))))
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  568. Wojtek Egyptians with their hieroglyphics are making a comeback? ;-)
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  571. christian Wojtek, +1 :))
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  575. millesimus > <opinion> lack of polish/features is not an actual problem with XMPP, people use whatever client with whatever features anyone else craps out as long as their friends are there, it's 100% network effect and nothing else </opinion> +1, but this also means that the only way to move people to xmpp is by the gentle force of not using silos.
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  584. theTedd to get a network effect, you first need a critical mass of users; you can't attract those users by network effect, so first you need something shiny
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  826. jjrh I don't have a iPhone so I can't say personally, but I have heard a lot of complaints about iOS clients.
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  829. MattJ It's rapidly improving over the past year or so
  830. MattJ Monal, Siskin and now Snikket are under active development on iOS
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