XSF Discussion - 2021-10-21

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  94. jonas’

    how about something client enforced where clients can choose to display late corrections more explicitly?

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  97. jonas’

    fwiw, I think that neither a hard number of messages nor a hard time limit for corrections is ok and this will be something which needs to be figured out in a modernxmpp-like venue, or even in individual (closed) deployments

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  173. MattJ

    (I'm inclined to agree)

  174. MattJ

    i.e. this is a product-level consideration, not a protocol-level one :)

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  176. Ge0rG

    Can we remove all occurences of the word "Last" from the XEP then?

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  296. flow

    Modyfing arbitrary messages shouldn't be a problem as long as the client makes any modified previous message clear and allows to access and the modifciation history

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  303. Holger

    I can imagine things becoming tricky if you receive corrections referencing messages not in your local history?

  304. Holger

    But that's just (client) implementation issues I guess πŸ™‚

  305. Holger


  306. Zash

    Isn't that one of the reasons MAM grew a way to query individual messages by archive-id?

  307. Holger

    Doesn't LMC reference one of the other IDs?

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  309. Zash

    Aw πŸ™

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  477. arc

    Do we have a quorum today?

  478. Zash

    The recurring question

  479. arc


  480. arc

    Given there's no response from another board member I'm guessing not

  481. Zash

    ping ralphm, MattJ and dwd?

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  483. ralphm bangs gavel 0. Welcome Who do we have?

  484. ralphm


  485. arc


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  488. Ellenor Malik

    Do board meetings have spectator seats?

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  491. ralphm


  492. Kev

    You have one.

  493. ralphm

    Everyone in this room may interact, it doesn't require membership

  494. ralphm

    That said, we're waiting to reach quorum on directors.

  495. ralphm

    MattJ and dwd, ping?

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  497. dwd


  498. ralphm

    there we go

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  501. ralphm

    Ok. There's a message from Sam on an application for fiscal hosting

  502. ralphm

    Anything else we should discuss today?

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  504. Sam

    also the pr following up on fiscal host criteria

  505. ralphm

    Thanks Sam

  506. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  507. arc

    Is it you this week?

  508. ralphm

    Could be. I'll take it

  509. ralphm

    2. Fiscal host criteria

  510. arc

    I think it was Matt last time

  511. ralphm


  512. MattJ


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  517. ralphm

    The only hangup I had was on the word sponsee. I've seen sponsoree, too, but English is not my native language and I'm out of dept here

  518. MattJ

    I'm in favour of the PR, except for a couple of editorial fixes (that being one of them)

  519. Kev

    FWIW, Sponsee isn't a word in English, although it's obvious to a native speaker what it means.

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  521. ralphm

    Kev: cool. What's the right word?

  522. dwd

    There's no single word.

  523. Kev

    I'm not actually sure there is one.

  524. dwd

    Sponsor subject?

  525. Kev

    "Sponsored Project" would be what I'd probably write.

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  527. dwd

    That too.

  528. Sam

    sponsee is definitely a word

  529. ralphm

    Ok. MattJ, can you handle the editorial fixes then?

  530. ralphm moves to approve

  531. ralphm


  532. Kev

    Sam: I'm not convinced - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sponsee (But dropping it now)

  533. dwd

    It'd only be a word if Sponser was...

  534. arc

    Leave it to the Brit to be a linguistic prescriptionist

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  536. arc


  537. ralphm

    I could not care less by now

  538. ralphm

    MattJ: can you pick this up?

  539. ralphm

    also awaiting votes

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  541. arc


  542. MattJ

    +1, though if someone else can then it will move quicker

  543. MattJ

    I'm away for the next few days at least

  544. dwd


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  546. ralphm

    Motion carries.

  547. ralphm

    I'll add comments to the PR and have it resolved

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  549. ralphm

    3. First applicant

  550. ralphm

    So, first off, since this PR isn't done yet, I'm not sure that a) it is fair to assume applicant has agreed, b) given Sam's comments the application will pass. I think we have to review the application against the approved rules.

  551. ralphm


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  553. dwd

    I'm missing context, I'm afraid.

  554. ralphm

    dwd: there was an e-mail to the Board list, on October 1, with a follow-up on October 8.

  555. MattJ

    The only issue I recall is that they don't have any open-source code, currently

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  558. Sam

    The Open Source Collective requires you to have source code available before they'll consider you, but that does seem like it would make it impossible to fundraise and then pay someone to write code, which also seems desirable and may be the case here.

  559. Sam

    I assume (but don't know for sure) that the reason for that rule is to stop tons of random people from applying and wasting resources because they just had an idea that they'll never execute

  560. dwd

    So... Yes. The problem as I see it is that this isn't an existing project wanting to raise funds.

  561. Sam

    Anyways, may be something for the board to balance/decide.

  562. MattJ

    Personally I'd settle for some documentation of the planned implementation

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  565. MattJ

    and an agreement of course that it will be open-source

  566. dwd

    I can't quite get my head around how this works. We'd get some donations toward this, and then... What? They go out and find a contractor to write it? This feels more like a bounty type thing.

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  568. MattJ

    It basically is

  569. MattJ

    Though they already have someone (some people?) who will work on it, given the funding

  570. dwd

    I'm not against a bounty type thing. Just not sure if this is the right vehicle, as it stands. It might be better to have the XSF simply handle bounty arrangements itself. Perhaps.

  571. Sam

    They already have a person who works on the matrix/xmpp bridge, I think

  572. MattJ

    FWIW the ultimate goal of the project is to add support for MAM to xmpp.js so it can be used in the Matrix<->XMPP bridge

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  574. dwd

    Right, I get that.

  575. MattJ

    But I've seen little in the way of docs to give me confidence that the project is anywhere near scoped out

  576. dwd

    Well, is that our problem?

  577. MattJ

    and who will be involved, etc.

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  579. dwd

    Genuine question, by the way. I don't know.

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  581. Kev

    Sorry, I realise I'm out of this, but does this mean someone is asking the XMPP to handle sponsorship for xmpp.js work, and that someone isn't xmpp.js? That seems a bit weird if so.

  582. MattJ

    For an existing open-source project, I think all these questions have clearer answers

  583. Kev

    Sorry, I realise I'm out of this, but does this mean someone is asking the XSF to handle sponsorship for xmpp.js work, and that someone isn't xmpp.js? That seems a bit weird if so.

  584. MattJ

    Kev, yeeees. It's weird or not weird, depending on how you look at it. Maybe the plugin will or won't be upstreamed, but these people are not affiliated with xmpp.js maintainers as far as I am aware.

  585. MattJ

    If it's all open-source, I don't think that's a real problem. They could just as easily fork xmpp.js with a click of a button if that's what it takes to get approved.

  586. MattJ

    They're not applying as xmpp.js

  587. arc

    I think it is pretty clear

  588. MattJ

    They essentially want to do crowdfunding for a specific short-term project, and they want us to accept and hold the funds for them

  589. ralphm

    Ok. Either we resolve this now by vote, or we need more discussion.

  590. MattJ

    If we decide it needs more discussion we should identify what specific blocking points are, and communicate these to the applicants if necessary

  591. ralphm motions we approve the project Message Archive Management ( MAM ) plugin

  592. dwd

    I think I think it's just weird. But not necessarily bad weird.

  593. ralphm

    Note that -1 is fine too, but I want to move on

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  595. ralphm

    dwd, MattJ, arc?

  596. MattJ

    -1, as it currently stands. Given that it's not an established project, I think I want to see more details before we accept it as one.

  597. dwd

    I see Matt is typing furiously, so I'm waiting to see what he says...

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  599. dwd

    Oh. Colour me surprised.

  600. ralphm

    Ah, for some reason Gajim doesn't show me

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  602. ralphm

    I don't know how we communicate this feedback, but MattJ, given that you object, please take care of this. I know you're going away for a few days, but after that, if needed.

  603. ralphm

    4. AOB

  604. ralphm


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  606. MattJ

    Yes, I can communicate with them next week

  607. dwd

    I have no decision in mind, but every objection I have really seems to be answered by Matt's comments. So I guess +1?

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  609. arc

    +1 from me btw

  610. Sam

    MattJ: if you send me your Open Collective account (if you have one) I can add you so you can communicate with them on there

  611. ralphm


  612. MattJ

    Shall do

  613. ralphm


  614. ralphm

    5. Date of Next

  615. ralphm


  616. ralphm

    6. Close

  617. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  618. ralphm bangs gavel

  619. Sam

    Thanks all; I really appreciate you taking this on

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  658. Zash

    Editor-ial question: What's the deal with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html being Version 2.5rc3 ? (release candidate?)

  659. jonas’

    don't ask me

  660. jonas’

    2017 was before my time

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  663. jonas’

    (as editor)

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  673. Zash

    Anyone happen to have a tool that compares a DOAP file with the latest XEP versions, highlighting which ones have been updated?

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  678. emus


  679. emus

    I think it would be great to render this as comparision between clients

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  681. Zash

    Hello 500 character bash "one-liner"

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  758. wurstsalat

    I don't have that one-liner ;)

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  764. Zash

    https://paste.debian.net/1216303/ split across 3 lines for the absolutely tiniest increase in readability

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