XSF Discussion - 2021-10-21

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06:02:21 jonas’ how about something client enforced where clients can choose to display late corrections more explicitly?
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06:03:32 jonas’ fwiw, I think that neither a hard number of messages nor a hard time limit for corrections is ok and this will be something which needs to be figured out in a modernxmpp-like venue, or even in individual (closed) deployments
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07:47:31 MattJ (I'm inclined to agree)
07:47:48 MattJ i.e. this is a product-level consideration, not a protocol-level one :)
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07:48:52 Ge0rG Can we remove all occurences of the word "Last" from the XEP then?
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11:11:15 flow Modyfing arbitrary messages shouldn't be a problem as long as the client makes any modified previous message clear and allows to access and the modifciation history
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11:35:48 Holger I can imagine things becoming tricky if you receive corrections referencing messages not in your local history?
11:36:12 Holger But that's just (client) implementation issues I guess 🙂
11:36:24 Holger Product-level!
11:37:18 Zash Isn't that one of the reasons MAM grew a way to query individual messages by archive-id?
11:38:25 Holger Doesn't LMC reference one of the other IDs?
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11:39:45 Zash Aw 🙁
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15:55:37 arc Do we have a quorum today?
15:56:30 Zash The recurring question
15:57:51 arc Yep.
15:58:47 arc Given there's no response from another board member I'm guessing not
15:59:13 Zash ping ralphm, MattJ and dwd?
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16:00:07 ralphm bangs gavel 0. Welcome Who do we have?
16:00:17 ralphm Hi!
16:00:27 arc Here
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16:04:32 Ellenor Malik Do board meetings have spectator seats?
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16:04:44 ralphm Sure
16:04:45 Kev You have one.
16:05:11 ralphm Everyone in this room may interact, it doesn't require membership
16:05:54 ralphm That said, we're waiting to reach quorum on directors.
16:06:12 ralphm MattJ and dwd, ping?
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16:06:59 dwd Hiya.
16:07:46 ralphm there we go
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16:08:46 ralphm Ok. There's a message from Sam on an application for fiscal hosting
16:08:54 ralphm Anything else we should discuss today?
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16:09:42 Sam also the pr following up on fiscal host criteria
16:10:52 ralphm Thanks Sam
16:11:00 ralphm 1. Minute taker
16:11:22 arc Is it you this week?
16:11:31 ralphm Could be. I'll take it
16:11:39 ralphm 2. Fiscal host criteria
16:11:44 arc I think it was Matt last time
16:11:44 ralphm https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/987/files
16:12:06 MattJ Hey
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16:15:17 ralphm The only hangup I had was on the word sponsee. I've seen sponsoree, too, but English is not my native language and I'm out of dept here
16:15:44 MattJ I'm in favour of the PR, except for a couple of editorial fixes (that being one of them)
16:16:19 Kev FWIW, Sponsee isn't a word in English, although it's obvious to a native speaker what it means.
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16:17:04 ralphm Kev: cool. What's the right word?
16:17:28 dwd There's no single word.
16:17:31 Kev I'm not actually sure there is one.
16:17:39 dwd Sponsor subject?
16:17:41 Kev "Sponsored Project" would be what I'd probably write.
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16:17:52 dwd That too.
16:18:12 Sam sponsee is definitely a word
16:18:35 ralphm Ok. MattJ, can you handle the editorial fixes then?
16:18:40 ralphm moves to approve
16:18:41 ralphm +1
16:18:47 Kev Sam: I'm not convinced - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sponsee (But dropping it now)
16:19:20 dwd It'd only be a word if Sponser was...
16:19:29 arc Leave it to the Brit to be a linguistic prescriptionist
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16:19:57 arc 😉
16:20:04 ralphm I could not care less by now
16:20:18 ralphm MattJ: can you pick this up?
16:20:30 ralphm also awaiting votes
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16:20:43 arc +1
16:20:44 MattJ +1, though if someone else can then it will move quicker
16:20:53 MattJ I'm away for the next few days at least
16:20:56 dwd +1
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16:21:34 ralphm Motion carries.
16:22:13 ralphm I'll add comments to the PR and have it resolved
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16:22:48 ralphm 3. First applicant
16:24:10 ralphm So, first off, since this PR isn't done yet, I'm not sure that a) it is fair to assume applicant has agreed, b) given Sam's comments the application will pass. I think we have to review the application against the approved rules.
16:24:17 ralphm Opinions
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16:26:22 dwd I'm missing context, I'm afraid.
16:27:39 ralphm dwd: there was an e-mail to the Board list, on October 1, with a follow-up on October 8.
16:27:44 MattJ The only issue I recall is that they don't have any open-source code, currently
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16:29:41 Sam The Open Source Collective requires you to have source code available before they'll consider you, but that does seem like it would make it impossible to fundraise and then pay someone to write code, which also seems desirable and may be the case here.
16:30:12 Sam I assume (but don't know for sure) that the reason for that rule is to stop tons of random people from applying and wasting resources because they just had an idea that they'll never execute
16:30:33 dwd So... Yes. The problem as I see it is that this isn't an existing project wanting to raise funds.
16:30:34 Sam Anyways, may be something for the board to balance/decide.
16:30:46 MattJ Personally I'd settle for some documentation of the planned implementation
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16:31:06 MattJ and an agreement of course that it will be open-source
16:32:31 dwd I can't quite get my head around how this works. We'd get some donations toward this, and then... What? They go out and find a contractor to write it? This feels more like a bounty type thing.
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16:33:10 MattJ It basically is
16:33:26 MattJ Though they already have someone (some people?) who will work on it, given the funding
16:33:37 dwd I'm not against a bounty type thing. Just not sure if this is the right vehicle, as it stands. It might be better to have the XSF simply handle bounty arrangements itself. Perhaps.
16:33:43 Sam They already have a person who works on the matrix/xmpp bridge, I think
16:33:46 MattJ FWIW the ultimate goal of the project is to add support for MAM to xmpp.js so it can be used in the Matrix<->XMPP bridge
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16:34:14 dwd Right, I get that.
16:34:22 MattJ But I've seen little in the way of docs to give me confidence that the project is anywhere near scoped out
16:34:40 dwd Well, is that our problem?
16:34:41 MattJ and who will be involved, etc.
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16:34:58 dwd Genuine question, by the way. I don't know.
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16:35:45 Kev ~~Sorry, I realise I'm out of this, but does this mean someone is asking the XMPP to handle sponsorship for xmpp.js work, and that someone isn't xmpp.js? That seems a bit weird if so.~~ ✎
16:35:56 MattJ For an existing open-source project, I think all these questions have clearer answers
16:36:06 Kev Sorry, I realise I'm out of this, but does this mean someone is asking the XSF to handle sponsorship for xmpp.js work, and that someone isn't xmpp.js? That seems a bit weird if so. ✏
16:36:56 MattJ Kev, yeeees. It's weird or not weird, depending on how you look at it. Maybe the plugin will or won't be upstreamed, but these people are not affiliated with xmpp.js maintainers as far as I am aware.
16:37:40 MattJ If it's all open-source, I don't think that's a real problem. They could just as easily fork xmpp.js with a click of a button if that's what it takes to get approved.
16:37:58 MattJ They're not applying as xmpp.js
16:38:36 arc I think it is pretty clear
16:38:42 MattJ They essentially want to do crowdfunding for a specific short-term project, and they want us to accept and hold the funds for them
16:38:42 ralphm Ok. Either we resolve this now by vote, or we need more discussion.
16:39:26 MattJ If we decide it needs more discussion we should identify what specific blocking points are, and communicate these to the applicants if necessary
16:39:39 ralphm motions we approve the project Message Archive Management ( MAM ) plugin
16:39:51 dwd I think I think it's just weird. But not necessarily bad weird.
16:39:58 ralphm Note that -1 is fine too, but I want to move on
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16:41:58 ralphm dwd, MattJ, arc?
16:42:05 MattJ -1, as it currently stands. Given that it's not an established project, I think I want to see more details before we accept it as one.
16:42:05 dwd I see Matt is typing furiously, so I'm waiting to see what he says...
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16:42:20 dwd Oh. Colour me surprised.
16:42:20 ralphm Ah, for some reason Gajim doesn't show me
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16:43:35 ralphm I don't know how we communicate this feedback, but MattJ, given that you object, please take care of this. I know you're going away for a few days, but after that, if needed.
16:43:40 ralphm 4. AOB
16:43:42 ralphm Any?
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16:43:52 MattJ Yes, I can communicate with them next week
16:43:56 dwd I have no decision in mind, but every objection I have really seems to be answered by Matt's comments. So I guess +1?
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16:44:35 arc +1 from me btw
16:44:49 Sam MattJ: if you send me your Open Collective account (if you have one) I can add you so you can communicate with them on there
16:45:04 ralphm +1
16:45:09 MattJ Shall do
16:45:13 ralphm Cool
16:45:22 ralphm 5. Date of Next
16:45:23 ralphm +1W
16:45:26 ralphm 6. Close
16:45:28 ralphm Thanks all!
16:45:31 ralphm bangs gavel
16:45:39 Sam Thanks all; I really appreciate you taking this on
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17:22:11 Zash Editor-ial question: What's the deal with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html being Version 2.5rc3 ? (release candidate?)
17:24:56 jonas’ don't ask me
17:25:04 jonas’ 2017 was before my time
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17:39:18 Zash Anyone happen to have a tool that compares a DOAP file with the latest XEP versions, highlighting which ones have been updated?
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17:47:21 emus wurstsalat:
17:47:42 emus I think it would be great to render this as comparision between clients
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17:49:59 Zash Hello 500 character bash "one-liner"
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19:21:12 wurstsalat I don't have that one-liner ;)
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19:23:14 Zash https://paste.debian.net/1216303/ split across 3 lines for the absolutely tiniest increase in readability
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