XSF Discussion - 2021-10-22


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  365. ralphm https://fosdem.org/2022/news/2021-10-22-fosdem-online-2022/
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  367. Zash So no FOSDEM this year either :-(
  368. flow given that some european countries show an increased incidence rate, it is probably the right decission
  369. flow will sure to fun attempting to recognize people again at fosdem 2023
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  375. emus But do we want to participate anyway?
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  392. MattJ Sure. Hopefully better than we participated last year.
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  412. vanitasvitae flow: hehe, at that point the "beard percentage" surely has gone up :D
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  426. deuill Not sure if this is off-topic here, but I've been reading through the blurb for the Element/Matrix Managed Bridges (EMS) service, and have been wondering if they somehow ensure/protect users from being kicked off third-party platforms for ToS violations.
  427. Holger I've been wondering the same, but it's certainly off-topic in here, yes 🙂
  428. deuill There's nothing specific written up, but they do mention the EU's Digital Markets Act as being a sort of change in what was traditionally a rather risky endeavour. Do we know if, legally, bridges/gateways are more viable these days?
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  430. deuill I guess I'm mostly wondering in terms of whether this might lead to fresh efforts on the XMPP side -- I get the feeling these haven't been viable exactly because third parties tend to be rather beligerent to users that access their platforms via third-party means.
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  435. deuill (There probably isn't a great answer to this until someone gets banned for a ToS violation and raises this with the relevant EU authorities)
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  437. Zash Rant on the topic of bridges: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2017-September/msg00047.html
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  442. Sam This is a good explanation; thanks. Someone recently asked me if I would be interested in splitting up a client into a local client/server archetecture over D-Bus and I was having trouble figuring out how to explain why I thought this was a bad idea. This gives a good example.
  443. Kev Microservices are good except when they aren't? :)
  444. Zash True fact.
  445. deuill Oh man I remember reading this, really good write-up. Though AFAIR, this was mostly aimed at issues with abstracting against protocols at the UX level; this is hard because you essentially have to build out a common denominator that covers an unknown and moving surface area.
  446. Sam Microservices are fine when they're running on a backend with a team to develop each one and lots of money to throw at coming up with the protocol that they all speak to eachother with. Not so much when you're trying to run something on someones desktop.
  447. Kev I'm certainly not a microservices expert, but it seems to me they provide value when they ... well, provide value. e.g. Language disconnect, horizontal scaling, team independence, etc.
  448. deuill That is to say, the Telepathy D-BUS API becomes its own protocol, essentially, complete with opinions on how the UX itself is presented.
  449. Sam Exactly; things you don't need in a small desktop application :)
  450. Zash Sam, microservices are fine when you want to build a mirror of your organizational structure? 🙂
  451. Kev And however much value they provide, they *always* have a non-trivial cost.
  452. Sam This ⤴️
  453. Kev (I'm actually playing with such things and trying to benchmark to see if it's viable within an XMPP service without breaking everything)
  454. deuill This is perhaps different to bridges/gateways which attempt to match from one fairly stable set of semantics (say, XMPP), to a perhaps moving set of separate semantics (whatever third parties are involved).
  455. Zash deuill, but you were thinking more of the legal ramifications of bridges, rather than the technical and UX?
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  457. Kev deuill - yes, I think you're right, that is mostly about the telepathy model, rather than gateways in general.
  458. deuill Yeah, whether bridges are more viable these days simply because platform providers cannot as easily boot people off for using them (and may be expected to provide interop APIs).
  459. Kev Or, well, bridges I guess. Gateways are dreadful to write, and bridges are worse.
  460. Zash Kev, and you know the difference between those???
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  463. Sam I was about to ask…
  464. Kev I'm probably misusing terminology.
  465. Zash The terminology is confusing and overlapping, even before Matrix came along and invented their own set of terms for everything.
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  467. Kev Thinking of IRC gateways, I tend to think of the traditional model (you join a magic room on the gateway) as gatewaying, and what M-Link does (you join a normal XMPP MUC, or normal IRC channel, and just appear in both) as gatewaying (although we still call it an IRC gateway). I think I might have invented the distinction, though.
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  470. Kev Thinking of IRC gateways, I tend to think of the traditional model (you join a magic room on the gateway) as gatewaying, and what M-Link does (you join a normal XMPP MUC, or normal IRC channel, and just appear in both) as bridging (although we still call it an IRC gateway). I think I might have invented the distinction, though.
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