XSF Discussion - 2021-11-04

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  250. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29104292#29104744
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  252. edhelas this might interest you
  253. emus Can someone tell what's "true" and whats not "true" about it
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  257. Daniel > rvz 24 minutes ago | prev [–] > So the hype around XMPP is no better than Matrix then. Oh dear. Glad there is still hype apparently
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  259. emus > If you pick a random XMPP server, you likely pick a German one. 😬
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  265. flow "So the hype around XMPP is…" Did I miss something?
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  272. MattJ Heh
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  275. emus I think we should take those articles serious, even if we may disagree on some points. arent there xeps to prevent metadata to the server?
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  277. emus and also the latest dtate of onemo?
  278. emus and also the latest dtate of omemo?
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  281. flow nope
  282. flow And, as one hn user commented, that article is more a rant than a well written summary of the situation
  283. emus but then lets do it better?
  284. flow avoiding metadata on the server? hard, if not next to impossible
  285. flow I mean, we always try to do better, but there a just some things that you can't change without changing the fundamental design
  286. emus sure, but it could be made clear that this affects all technolgy
  287. flow well, not all technology
  288. emus agreed
  289. emus ok
  290. flow there are mostly metadata-less means of communication, but those have other drawbacks
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  293. Daniel If meta data is your only or by far biggest concern then there are indeed other chat clients that do a better job at avoiding them
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  303. emus I think XMPP is also much more. If people all host in the same server farm thats bad - but their decision. XMPP does not force one to do so. And also people here do it because it is a standard. I think thats also important to say. I would be happy to write something on this and maybe even updste the websites explainations. If people are interested to throw their arguments at me I can try to write sometjing. However, I lag many of the technical details and knowledge here.
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  308. flow emus, sure, may I recommend an pad (cryptpad) somewhere? to collaborative work on the text?
  309. flow emus, sure, may I recommend a pad (cryptpad) somewhere? to collaborative work on the text?
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  311. dwd Obviously we should ensure it's fully encrypted.
  312. flow I'd rather recommend and use cryptpad because it's a nice pad
  313. dwd :-)
  314. dwd Use double-rot13 on the text.
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  326. dwd We should probably make https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html#security more stern, too.
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  330. emus flow: yes I can do so
  331. emus of course with double-rot13 😃
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  334. dwd Or triple-rot13 twice.
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  337. emus Everyone feel free to add their questions and responses / ideas / clues https://yopad.eu/p/xsf-collection-privacy-security
  338. dwd Daniel, In the Conversations screenshots, what are the German bits saying? I can't work out if he's got as far as spooinf OMEMO's initial leap of faith etc.
  339. emus flow:
  340. emus sperren means to block the contact
  341. Daniel dwd: that's the message from stranger dialog
  342. Daniel That pops up for non responded to non contacts
  343. dwd And the placeholder text? Is that saying anything about encryption?
  344. Daniel In the input field? That's saying the next message they'd send would be omemo encrypted. Gives no indication on whether or not they trusted any devices yet. Presumably not
  345. Daniel That fake account probably won't even have keys published
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  349. dwd No, though that could be spoofed too of course.
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  353. dwd Written some starter text. Feel free to edit.
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  358. jonas’ uhh
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  361. larma If you fear metadata, you can just run a server on the same device as the clients and use Tor for s2s, basically making it a fully anonymized peer-to-peer messenger. UX will probably be terrible, but the metadata footprint will be incredibly low. XMPP already fully supports such setups, so the protocol can stay as is. If there is no client doing this out of the box, this might just be because it's a terrible idea, not because the protocol is bad.
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  365. mjk > XMPP already fully supports such setups, so the protocol can stay as is. Isn't there some lack of specifics in the Stream Management xep concerning s2s connections? From what I heard, current implementations kinda handwave the issue, which can(?) result in message loss. I'd be glad to have misunderstood though. :)
  366. mjk From the pad: > Some will allow for federation, which inevitably increases the matadata involved. Increases compared to what? A p2p system? This isn't very clear
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  368. mjk From the pad: > Some will allow for federation, which inevitably increases the matadata involved. Increases compared to what? A p2p system? This isn't very clear in the text
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  371. mdosch Aitm time again?
  372. jonas’ it is
  373. Alex Another reminder that we are coming close to the deadline for our board and council application period which is November 7th.   When you are interested to run for a board or council position then please apply here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2021
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  386. dwd mdosch, It feels like it comes earlier every year.
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  388. wgreenhouse lol
  389. dwd Anyone fancy putting their names in for Board or Council? I'm happy to answer questions in public or in private about the workload, difficulty, or whatever else.
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  437. jonas’ same (for council)
  438. edhelas It's crazy how the Matrix guys are really aggressive in their comments. Like it was a religion to defend.
  439. Zash It's their livelihood, what do you expect?
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  477. moparisthebest edhelas: https://www.moparisthebest.com/images/xmpp-vs-matrix.jpg
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  479. edhelas Yup exactly
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  486. phryk jonas’, re https://github.com/horazont/testxmpp/ nice, python. did you use an existing xmpp implementation or are you implementing the needed parts right in that project?
  487. jonas’ phryk, https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp for some XMPP things, but the workhorse is https://github.com/drwetter/testssl.sh
  488. phryk jonas’, oh, you're the author of aioxmpp? i think i mailed you once about me wanting to write a client with kivy :)
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  490. jonas’ maaaybe :)
  491. jonas’ I remotely recall something, did I reply to you?
  492. phryk you did, even offered to help iirc. :)
  493. jonas’ huh, interesting ;)
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  495. phryk also nice flask, i'm building my custom invite/register/webclient service website with that ;)
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  498. phryk i wanted to do something similar to xmppoke, but as cli tool… your project is definitely relevant to my interests. :3
  499. jonas’ phryk, use testssl.sh
  500. jonas’ it can do XMPP and testxmpp is mostly a fancy UI wrapper around that.
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  503. phryk how extensive is its xmpp support? i also want to test if things are correctly set up for working audio/videocalls and nat traversal, file uploads, etcpp…
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  505. jonas’ okay, that it doesn't do at all
  506. Zash That's a bit out of scope for TLS tests
  507. jonas’ but that also generally requires a user account
  508. phryk Yes and yes.
  509. Zash Use caas?
  510. phryk But that's the sort of tool I wanted to build.
  511. Zash https://github.com/iNPUTmice/caas
  512. jonas’ while the goal of testxmpp is to work without a user account at this point in time, though I can imagine privileged tests with credentials, too
  513. phryk Zash, Yes, but I want that as CLI, or rather as a lib either in python or with python bindings. :P
  514. Zash It is a cli, tho in java
  515. phryk mweh. if i'm not of i have managed to have no java at all in my package repository^^
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  533. jonas’ phryk, so generally, I am interested in integrating more tools if they have a sane API (testssl.sh does not have a sane API, for instance, but it's so powerful that the cost of implementing a thing which extracts the test results was lower than the cost of reimplementing the tests)
  534. phryk yeah, i can understand that. i was kinda tempted just writing my own xmpp implementation, but i think then i will *definitely* never get this done ^^
  535. phryk tho if I'm not thinking about a full-fledged client but rather a tester, aioxmpp (+ existing plugins) probably already does all xmpp-specific stuff I'd need…
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  542. jonas’ yep, also aioxmpp is really easy to extend :)
  543. jonas’ (and contributions for things like retrieving A/V stuff are really welcome, too)
  544. phryk heh, yeah. just wanted to say good to know it's easily extensible because last i checked there was no extension for a/v calls. or not for them with omemo? but these are all topics where I'm not sure I have the needed domain-specific knowledge to implement them^^
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  609. jonas’ well, that's exactly my problem ;)
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  622. emus Thank you guys for the full text replies already. Haven't expected this!
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  645. ralphm bangs gavel
  646. ralphm 0 . Welcome
  647. ralphm Hi! Who do we have?
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  649. MattJ Hey
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  651. emus \emus listening as guest 👋️
  652. emus \me listening as guest 👋️
  653. emus listening as guest 👋️
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  657. phryk is it office hours again?
  658. emus yes
  659. emus no
  660. emus Its board meetnig
  661. ralphm phryk: as per the room subject :D
  662. ralphm Except we don't yet have quorum
  663. jl4 has joined
  664. phryk Ah, had dino in fullscreen mode, doesn't show topic then^^
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  666. ralphm Because it has too much screen estate?
  667. ralphm Also, doesn't Dino show subject changes in-chat?
  668. phryk No, seems to be developer decision, i guess. It shows an extra bar with topic, search etc, but not in fullscreen mode.
  669. phryk No, doesn't do that either. :P At least the version I have, which might be outdated by a couple months…
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  673. emus arc, dwd are you here?
  674. dwd Yes, sorry, hand;t noticed the time.
  675. ralphm ok, let's get going then
  676. ralphm Do we have any agenda items?
  677. ralphm emus: was there something specific you wanted talked about?
  678. emus Yes
  679. emus let me copy
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  681. emus flow recommended to me to apply to Board as GSoC organisation administrator and hereby I would to do so. Of course, that would be my first time. If there are certain responsibilities or things I require to know or are to be discussed I would like to know. Other than that I am happy to support the organisation and during the GSoC in general
  682. emus flow said that he is happy to be a support in the background
  683. dwd emus, I got all hopeful you were intending on standing for Board then.
  684. ralphm :-D
  685. emus : D thanks you are so confident about me
  686. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  687. ralphm dwd
  688. dwd OK
  689. ralphm 2. GSoC
  690. emus I'm happy to support board where I can of course
  691. ralphm So, it seems we have somebody who'd love to be admin this time around!
  692. emus but I cannot tell right now that I can make it next year
  693. ralphm I haven't seen any chatter on GSoC 2022 yet. Did I miss an announcement?
  694. Kev I haven't noticed an announcement yet.
  695. dwd I'm all in favour of getting our act together sooner.
  696. emus No, you did not miss
  697. ralphm Was just going to say that.
  698. Kev So I think it's premature to do much before they've said there will be a 2022, especially given the magnitude of change in the 2021 program.
  699. emus but I want to start early as well as provide XMPP people to consider early
  700. emus otherwise they might go somewhere else
  701. ralphm So emus: yay. Thanks for offering. There are several individuals that have admined before that would likely be happy to assist you.
  702. dwd You could certainly work with the individual projects to get things ready.
  703. jgart has left
  704. Kev Right, but what if they reversed the 2021 changes? Presumably any projects we'd suggested would be invalidated.
  705. Kev Anyway, I'm all in favour of someone willing to do adminny things :)
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  707. dwd emus, Sorry, what's your proper name for the minutes?
  708. Kev (And I certainly won't have time to)
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  710. emus you mean my full name?
  711. dwd emus, Something for the minutes. Unless you just want to be "emus" there. :-)
  712. ralphm :D
  713. emus emus is fine, but you find my full name also in the applications I made
  714. emus I would have one more question if you decline to start with GSoC now: So you do allow me to reach out to the projects and ask them to consider it?
  715. ralphm I'm sure dwd can get the minutes sorted
  716. emus and may I also call via social media? (acutally I did already in the Newsletter 😬️)
  717. ralphm Yes please go ahead.
  718. dwd I think that's fine, as long as it's understood how tentative it is at this stage.
  719. Kev From the peanut gallery, starting thinking about GSoC early, and especially getting interest from software projects is great. We just can't really go as far as sorting out ideas unless we know what form it'll take next year.
  720. Kev (Or if it'll happen at all, naturally)
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  722. dwd Kev, I see your point, certainly, but I think we can go as far as gathering projects and getting them to start thinking about the areas they'd like to see, mentors, etc.
  723. ralphm yup
  724. emus Kev - sure, I did not intend this
  725. emus so I take way: do nothing official and everything as a tentative and elaborating action?
  726. ralphm Well, you can totally officially gather interest.
  727. Kev (In case anyone's following but not following GSoC, Google halved the scope of all projects last year, which is what I'm worried about being thrown by)
  728. ralphm It is just that Google hasn't announced the happening of GSoC 2022 yet, so make sure you communicate that everything is tentative.
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  730. ralphm This is also very non-committal: https://groups.google.com/g/google-summer-of-code-discuss/c/HdlN9R81Spk
  731. Kev (Even assuming it goes ahead)
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  733. Kev Ralph: That's also pretty standard for what's said every year before announcement, mind.
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  736. ralphm yep
  737. ralphm Note that last year, they announced on Oct 26, so yeah, let's see
  738. ralphm emus: do you have enough to work with?
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  741. phryk sorry if i'm junst bonking in as a guest, but can i know what emus approach you with? getting the xsf directly get funds from gsoc to distribute among projects?
  742. emus Just to be a hosting organisation (as others) during the GSoC 2022 as we did in the recent years
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  745. emus ralphm yes I think so, thanks
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  750. dwd Well, GSoC operates by paying students to work on open source projects directly, but the "organisation" gets money as well. The XSF would, in this case, be the organisation for all the projects.
  751. emus flow, if you are here - anything else?
  752. ralphm phryk: no, Google pays students directly and we then get compensation for mentoring as well
  753. ralphm yay lag
  754. phryk ralphm, ah, that sounds nice. :)
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  757. flow emus, no, nothing to add at this stage
  758. ralphm Moving on
  759. ralphm 3. AOB
  760. dwd Now we could hand our share over to the projects in some cases, of course - but that's really a choice for the next Board.
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  773. ralphm Just wanted to mention two things:
  774. emus General question: All from the current board will not reapply?
  775. ralphm #1 note that messages that Alex sent out: applications for Board and Council elections are still open until the 7th
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  778. dwd Oh. For some reason I had it in my head it was tomorrow, but it's Sunday, isn't it?
  779. ralphm You can find and edit applications here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2021
  780. ralphm Yeah, I'm not sure what End of Business means on a Sunday, but whatver.
  781. ralphm e
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  787. ralphm Of course there are societies with Sunday as a regular working day.
  788. dwd I feel you may have digressed.
  789. Alex we use the end of business term forever, maybe we need to change with a UTC time in the future
  790. ralphm #2 I saw the CfP for FOSDEM 2022 devrooms: https://fosdem.org/2022/news/2021-11-02-devroom-cfp/
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  792. ralphm I haven't yet seen any chatter from the RTC people on this yet, though.
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  796. ralphm I'll keep an eye on this.
  797. ralphm Anything else?
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  800. ralphm 4. Date of Next
  801. ralphm +1W
  802. ralphm 5. Close
  803. dwd When I said after 2019 that I could use a break from FOSDEM I didn't mean *this*.
  804. ralphm haha
  805. ralphm Thanks all!
  806. ralphm bangs gavel
  807. emus Thanks everyone!
  808. phryk To vote in that election, I'd have to be an XSF member, right? What would that entail and is it still possible?
  809. Sam phryk: see https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2021
  810. Alex Sam, you can apply here for membership: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2021
  811. Alex but this is Q4, and we will elect on those applications after the upcoming board&council voting
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  814. dwd phryk, You could stand for Board though. :-)
  815. dwd phryk, I mean, you can't vote, but you can *stand*...
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  818. phryk dwd, Yes, I thought about that for like 2 nanoseconds, but naah.
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  820. Sam Presumably you could stand for council too and it would just depend if you become a member.
  821. Sam It doesn't seem likely that everyone would vote for you for council, but against you as a member
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  824. Zash Conditional elections? Maybe let's not do that
  825. Zash Again
  826. phryk I'm informed and vested enough to vote on things, I think, but apart from maybe some more prosody plugin stuff I don't think I'm a good fit for any official representative position for the XSF. :P
  827. dwd Sam, No, but you can't be a Council person without being a Member, so that precludes standing, I think, by any sane measure.
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  831. dwd phryk, Please do become an XSF Member, then - in years where we aren't in pandemic status, we even get a nice meal out of it with lengthy discussions about linguistics.
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  835. phryk dwd, mhh, can i ask for my membership application to not be public, but just visible internally tho? would like to keep public links of my nick and "official" name to a minimum…
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  840. dwd phryk, Honestly, I don't know. We are technically a corporation, registered in Delaware, and by becoming an XSF Member you're becoming a Member of the Corporation. It's not clear to me if this is a matter of public record or not.
  841. emus FOSDEM devrooms are open for everyone?
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  843. phryk Not 100% sure, but for soemthing as official as XSF it's definitely possible to get one.
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  845. ralphm dwd: the position we have taken as Board up till now is that we require public applications.
  846. ralphm dwd: exactly because of what you wrote
  847. phryk dwd, Mhh, then I'll have to think about this. Tho, honestly, unless I move my server out of the EU it looks like I'll soon be identified by WHOIS anyhow :/
  848. ralphm emus: what do you mean: hosting, presenting, attending?
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  851. dwd phryk, I have to admit that I lean toward publishing our membership as openly as possible because of a general lean toward transparency of organisation. I believe that's the right thing to do.
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  853. emus all of it actually. So if we have a room people need to pay and register to join/attend/?
  854. dwd Not pay, certainly.
  855. dwd FOSDEM has always been riotously free.
  856. ralphm There's no payment involved with any of FOSDEM
  857. ralphm except of course, food and beer
  858. dwd Much beer.
  859. phryk dwd, I agree on that. But I do think that pseudonymous memberships should be possible. I'd be okay with identifying myself internally so things like people using this to gain multiple votes can be avoided.^^
  860. ralphm also, you can sponsor FOSDEM and receive merch as thanks
  861. Daniel Organizations apply for dev rooms. Individuals apply to dev rooms with talks. Anyone can listen
  862. Zash You can buy beer over matrix now? We're lost!
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  864. Zash fg
  865. Zash this is not the terminal I was looking for!
  866. dwd phryk, I understand your viewpoint. But there's things like the orgnisation being seen not to have been taken over by Cisco, or Isode, or whoever - unlikely now, of course, but we've got to the point of needing to count a couple of times.
  867. phryk dwd, oh ew. that's an excellent point.
  868. Daniel Traditionally we don't apply for our own 'xmpp' devroom but instead share one called real time something
  869. ralphm We indeed also have affiliation limits
  870. Kev Well, *traditionally* we did apply for our own xmpp devroom. The realtime something is much more recent :)
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  872. Zash We had devrooms?
  873. ralphm And we could
  874. dwd phryk, Obviously we do check internally, but we also need to be seen to be clear on these fronts. I think. :-)
  875. ralphm Zash: Edwin and I initially started, with the Jabber stand
  876. ralphm and then we had a Jabber/XMPP devroom for many years
  877. Kev In which people gave talks about how much they hated the JSF :)
  878. ralphm A good thing it can fly now
  879. Kev "Yes"
  880. emus Ah okay, yes I can only support Sam's attempt to get a devroom
  881. emus But we can also have talks in the devrooms?
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  884. ralphm What else would you do in it
  885. Daniel Develop?
  886. emus _D
  887. emus yes
  888. emus 😀
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  890. Kev Uhm. You think we're some kind of Software Foundation? :)
  891. Sam My attempt? I don't think that was me :) I just asked who normally applies the other day, didn't know if that was us or someone else
  892. Daniel But yes dev rooms are the equivalent to tracks at other conferences
  893. pasdesushi has joined
  894. Daniel So yes you'd usually use them for talks
  895. ralphm Normally I do the applications
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  897. ralphm Except recently the devroom applications were done together with the RTC crowd, and I think it was Daniel Pocock or Saul who did the applications
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  899. Sam *nods* thanks
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  906. moparisthebest > When I said after 2019 that I could use a break from FOSDEM I didn't mean *this*. I didn't realize corona was dwd 's fault... But in hindsight it makes sense since he work(s/ed) in healthcare, new conspiracy!
  907. Titi has joined
  908. dwd Surprisingly, while Pando got *very* busy because of the pandemic, it didn't translate into revenue.
  909. dwd But yeah, during April 2020 we saw around a 500% increase in users.
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  912. dwd Got some seriously fascinating insights though. You could more or less measure healthcare professional stress levels by how quickly they'd open messages.
  913. marc has left
  914. dwd And then I got more or less fired by the new CTO. So yeah, mixed time. :-)
  915. Zash So stressed, they'd just sit there refreshing their inbox?
  916. dwd Zash, No, we could measure to millisecond accuracy between them getting sent the message (hence notification on their phone) and them opening it.
  917. dwd Zash, For Nurses, we could tell they would open the app between sessions and have bursty conversations as they walked from one patient to another. For Doctors, they'd just respond as and when they could.
  918. dwd (We could also tell fun things, like junior doctors responded to consultant messages much faster than messages from nursing staff... Healthcare is weirdly heirarchical)
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  1011. emus > Daniel wrote: > So yes you'd usually use them for talks Thanks for clarifying
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  1018. emus > dwd wrote: > Got some seriously fascinating insights though. You could more or less measure healthcare professional stress levels by how quickly they'd open messages. This is one of the most understood issues with meta data :-) But people still wonder about my sceptisim
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  1024. wurstsalat https://spacecloud.one/upload/66c0dd6e-69ed-4170-bc3e-bf6677ae8cd3/5f4982b2-b224-4e3d-8970-1fafcff5e840.png
  1025. wurstsalat thoughts?
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  1027. emus pure love - wann heiraten wir?
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  1032. wurstsalat not what I expected :D
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  1049. flow wurstsalat, I think more states can lead to retracted
  1050. flow wurstsalat, also 'rejected' leads back to experimental, maybe?
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  1057. emus > wurstsalat wrote: > not what I expected :D Oh I thought that was the private chat 😂😂😂
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  1060. moparisthebest Lifecycle in practice: ----> [Experimental (everything stays here forever)]
  1061. Zash XEP-0280 and 0313 would like to object!
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  1063. moparisthebest in general though :)
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  1065. moparisthebest seriously though, really nice wurstsalat
  1066. Zash moparisthebest, got stats to back up that? 🙂
  1067. wurstsalat moparisthebest, theTedd connected the boxes, I embedded it and applied some cosmetics
  1068. emus > moparisthebest wrote: > seriously though, really nice wurstsalat This!
  1069. emus also thanks to theTedd
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