XSF Discussion - 2021-11-08


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  12. Daniel max It's really nice meeting you here and I'm very willing to teach you about trading,coach you on how to invest and work with you dealing on cryptocurrencies
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  14. wurstsalat ^ already banned elsewhere
  15. Daniel max Do you want to invest now
  16. wurstsalat I guess I'll be better off when I'm going to sleep now
  17. Daniel max Are you on telegram
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  20. nuron As I told you in another muc Daniel max I prefere to burn my money in my own fireplace...
  21. nuron And we are on xmpp. Don't ask such stupid questions
  22. Daniel max I'm not talking with you my friend
  23. nuron meh
  24. nuron you didn't addressed a single person here so I thought you are talking to all of us 🙁
  25. Daniel max Okay
  26. Daniel max Do you have any experience before
  27. nuron I'm very sad that I don't have the chance to learn how to become rich
  28. nuron yes. I've burned money allready before
  29. nuron with a small ligher, you know?
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  32. nuron I guess this was more effective then all of your tipps I could expect
  33. Daniel max So have you earn
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  37. nuron I've earned. Sure
  38. Daniel max Okay
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  41. wurstsalat is implementing XEP-0425 for this
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  44. nuron great
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  527. jonas’ uh, the applications are a tad disappointing.
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  548. Sam Huh, assuming all directors are elected Ralph would get a tie breaker vote (I think? Isn't he the executive director?) but if Ralph is on the board…
  549. Sam Constitutional crisis time!
  550. jonas’ Matt is ED
  551. jonas’ IIRC
  552. Sam Either way
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  554. Zash Is this not already the case, with one board member leaving?
  555. Sam One board member is leaving? I guess so then
  556. Zash Wasn't this many moons ago?
  557. jonas’ Sam, I think one board member resigned some time during the last term
  558. jonas’ so we've been running on four board members for a while now
  559. Sam Oh fun; looks like it will be the same thing all next term then.
  560. Zash It hasn't seemed to be a problem in practice
  561. Sam Yah, hopefully there are no split votes and everyone just works towards consensus, I'd be more worried if it were the council I guess.
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  563. Zash Don't worry, be happy
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  574. moparisthebest does anyone see any glaring problems with validating incoming SASL EXTERNAL s2s connections from .onion domains via initiating an outgoing connection to that .onion domain, and recording whatever TLS cert it sends as trusted for that domain ?
  575. moparisthebest as opposed to what all implementations I'm aware of would do now, which is dialback
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  578. Zash You can do that even without .onion
  579. Zash IIRC dwd wrote about "same cert validation" long long ago
  580. dwd https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0344.html#samecert
  581. Sam I don't recall how hidden services work (and haven't been involved since before the v3 ones, so they may be different now anyways), but surely Tor would have its own thing you could look up on the network to verify the connection? It hides you and the location of the service, but I thought the address and some key stored on the network somewhere could be used to authenticate the service still. Maybe you just need a Tor specific version of SASL EXTERNAL.
  582. Zash Some way to derive or connect the certificate from the .onion would be neat.
  583. moparisthebest thanks! that's exactly what I meant.... so does anything implement this ?
  584. Zash There's half of same-cert validation as a Prosody module
  585. dwd I can't actually remember. I think I did this in M-Link, perhaps, and/or Metre.
  586. moparisthebest well, this still involves dialback a bit
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  588. dwd Well, it's still dialling back, yes.
  589. dwd But not using the dialback key.
  590. Zash In Prosody, at that point, it's already started Dialback so might as well proceed with it ...
  591. dwd Well, my view is that it's stronger to use same-cert than the key, and it saves a round-trip, so...
  592. moparisthebest tor gives you the guarantee that if you try to contact example.onion you are actually connected to example.onion, so you can trust what cert it sends, can you then immediately trust whatever incoming connection also sends that same cert ?
  593. dwd Oh, so you're saying that if you connect outbound, blind, to example.onion then can you cache the cert?
  594. moparisthebest yes, but only for example.onion obviously
  595. Zash moparisthebest, enable https://modules.prosody.im/mod_s2s_auth_samecert.html and try it?
  596. Zash unless mod_onions already does that
  597. dwd That is, I think, a different question. "same cert dialback" does make the assumption that the cert is used by inbound and outbound sessions at the same time, I think when you introduce longer-term caching, then you also introduce TOCTOU issues.
  598. moparisthebest maybe you don't cache, maybe you make a new outgoing s2s connection for every incoming
  599. dwd moparisthebest, But then you're doing same-cert dialback.
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  601. Zash what would it be if it just compares with the cert of an existing outgoing connection?
  602. moparisthebest it's like tor-specific dialback-without-sending-or-recieving any <db XML
  603. dwd Yes, that should work.
  604. dwd moparisthebest, Ah, well. If you know a-priori that the cert is currently in use, then you can indeed offer EXTERNAL then.
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  606. jonas’ moparisthebest, how is it tor specific?
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  609. jonas’ ah
  610. jonas’ because normally your cert would match your hostname
  611. jonas’ and hence you don't even need to do the dialback dance
  612. jonas’ nevermind
  613. moparisthebest normally "do I trust a cert" is "is it signed by a CA I trust", but with tor it can be "does example.onion send me this cert when I connect to it"
  614. dwd jonas’, Well, no, do mind. You could do this without Tor just as well, I think.
  615. Zash Is it now we realize we're not actually authenticating the outgoing connection?
  616. moparisthebest with tor, connecting to example.onion is already validated when(before?) you connect
  617. dwd jonas’, Tor offers some additional protection against spoofing, so the outbound connection is in effect authenticated by Tor, so it's *better*, but if you have an outgoing connection over TLS/IP (not Tor) then you could choose to trust an inbound one from the same domain based on same-cert and EXTERNAL.
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  622. moparisthebest other non-tor things probably have this same property, like .i2p ? but I don't know enough about it
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  625. dwd moparisthebest, The problem is there's no channel binding between TLS and Tor, AFAIK. So you're still vulnerable to the remote domain spoofing in some cases. But as I say, it's more secure against such attacks than plain IP.
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  627. moparisthebest in what way could it be spoofed ?
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  750. Alex just started memberbot for our board&council elections
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  766. jonas’ voted :)
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  771. Sam Me too (and it let me, but then I realized I don't think I technically can)
  772. Zash :O
  773. jonas’ uh, indeed
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  775. jonas’ Alex, ^
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  780. Alex will be dropped from the votes
  781. jonas’ maybe give the list of allowed voters another look :)
  782. Alex I want to suggest some kind of whitelist in git of members, maybe based on hashes of jids or smth similar. This will make many things easier
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  790. moparisthebest all the JIDs are public anyway?
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  800. moparisthebest you know what this means, Sam needs prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for hacking the XSF https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/15/f12-isnt-hacking-missouri-governor-threatens-to-prosecute-local-journalist-for-finding-exposed-state-data/ ;)
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  803. Sam I don't live in Missouri; Georgia's governor is as much of a right wing asshole, but is also competent at being evil (unfortunately?)
  804. Zash JID is required in the membership application, so yeah
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  808. jonas’ Alex, we could just add them to members.json and not render them to the website
  809. jonas’ (you can just add fields, they'll be ignored I guess)
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  814. Alex jonas’ hashes? or real jids?
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  816. moparisthebest I meant "jids are already public in membership applications so no use hashing them for this"
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  818. Alex I am fine with that. Then we could ask every member to PR their Jid
  819. Alex or multiple
  820. Alex on the wiki they are public, but sometimes decoded with (at) and (dot)......
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  827. moparisthebest I'll have a go at scraping them from there in a bit
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  831. Alex 👍
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  936. moparisthebest https://burtrum.org/up/e9d06221-b6dd-48a8-95cd-00e43af1ccfa/memberjids.txt
  937. moparisthebest 52 member jids here, some members had 2 etc, don't @ me for doing terrible things with html and regex: `curl https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q{1,2,3}_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2020 | grep -Eo '/web/[^"]+Application_202[01]' apps.txt | sed 's@^@https://wiki.xmpp.org@' | xargs curl | sed -re 's/ \+ / /g' -e 's/ +at +/@/gi' -e 's/\[A\]/@/gi' -e 's/ *([(]|&lt;|\[)(at|ett|ät)([)]|&gt;|\]) */@/gi' -e 's/ +([(]|\[)?(dot|tod)([)]|\])? +/./gi' | grep -Ei '(xmpp|jid|jabber)' | grep '@' | grep -Eio '[^ ><",?]+( at |@)[^ ><",?]+\.[^ ><",?]+' | sed 's@.*xmpp:@@i' | grep -v 'mailto:' | sort -u | tee memberjids.txt`
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  940. moparisthebest https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Florian_Schmaus_Application_2021 and https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Arc_Riley_Application_2021 flow / arc get shamed for not including JID in their applications :)
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  946. moparisthebest https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Daniel_Gultsch_Application_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Matthew_Wild_Application_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Yvo_Meeres_Application_2021 were missed for having funky formats (need to add these manually)
  947. moparisthebest https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Daniel_Gultsch_Application_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Matthew_Wild_Application_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Yvo_Meeres_Application_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Kim_Alvefur_Application_2020 were missed for having funky formats (need to add these manually)
  948. moparisthebest https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Bartosz_Malkowski_Application_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Joachim_Lindborg_Application_2020 links to user pages and so were missed and needs added manually
  949. moparisthebest lastly https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Davide_Conzon_Application_2021 has a @gmail.com JID which no longer exists right ?
  950. moparisthebest otherwise I manually went through all the rest and made sure they were in the dumped file above
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  954. mdosch I get 'file not found'.
  955. moparisthebest oops, remnants of my testing in the command, the full thing anyone can run to reproduce is `curl https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q{1,2,3}_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2020 | grep -Eo '/web/[^"]+Application_202[01]' | sed 's@^@https://wiki.xmpp.org@' | xargs curl | sed -re 's/ \+ / /g' -e 's/ +at +/@/gi' -e 's/\[A\]/@/gi' -e 's/ *([(]|&lt;|\[)(at|ett|ät)([)]|&gt;|\]) */@/gi' -e 's/ +([(]|\[)?(dot|tod)([)]|\])? +/./gi' | grep -Ei '(xmpp|jid|jabber)' | grep '@' | grep -Eio '[^ ><",?]+( at |@)[^ ><",?]+\.[^ ><",?]+' | sed 's@.*xmpp:@@i' | grep -v 'mailto:' | sort -u | tee memberjids.txt`
  956. moparisthebest (first one had apps.txt which I had written to to avoid continuously hitting wiki.xmpp.org while tweaking regexen)
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  958. Alex could we output them with names? Then we could add an issue for our website and add them as a PR to the memberlist json, ideally as an array becasue some members have multiple.
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  983. moparisthebest ``` curl https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q{1,2,3}_2021 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2020 | grep -Eo '/web/[^"]+Application_202[01]' | sed 's@^@https://wiki.xmpp.org@' | xargs -n1 sh -c 'curl -o "$(echo "$1" | sed -e 's@https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/@@' -e 's@.Application_.*@@')" $1' -- for file in *; do sed -re 's/ \+ / /g' -e 's/ +at +/@/gi' -e 's/\[A\]/@/gi' -e 's/ *([(]|&lt;|\[)(at|ett|ät)([)]|&gt;|\]) */@/gi' -e 's/ +([(]|\[)?(dot|tod)([)]|\])? +/./gi' "$file" | grep -Ei '(xmpp|jid|jabber)' | grep '@' | grep -Eio '[^ ><",?]+( at |@)[^ ><",?]+\.[^ ><",?]+' | sed 's@.*xmpp:@@i' | grep -v 'mailto:' | sed 's/\.$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' ' | sed -e 's/ $//' -e 's/ /", "/' -e 's/^/[ "/' -e 's/$/" ]/' | sponge "$file"; done; grep @ * > member_names_with_jids.txt ```
  984. moparisthebest https://burtrum.org/up/ba2c2d00-cb57-4974-bd5b-255ebe5a9af7/member_names_with_jids.txt
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  986. moparisthebest some need some obvious cleaning up, `Waqas_Hussain:[ "jdev@muc.xmpp.org", "prosody@conference.prosody.im waqas@prosody.im xsf@muc.xmpp.org" ]`, but close enough
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  988. moparisthebest it does have the nice side effect of telling you which applicants we *do not* have JIDs for: ``` $ grep -L @ * Arc_Riley Bartosz_Malkowski Florian_Schmaus Joachim_Lindborg Kim_Alvefur ```
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  997. moparisthebest https://burtrum.org/up/68b35427-c621-4a7f-9b6f-03d7ffc1ff14/member_names_with_jids.txt
  998. moparisthebest there, I manually corrected and filled in everything that I could, only missing are Arc_Riley and Florian_Schmaus, feel free to run a diff against the autogenerated output to see what I manually edited
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  1012. Alex 👍
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  1048. jonas’ moparisthebest: parsing html with sed. I approve.
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  1052. moparisthebest I suspected you would :P it works, shipit
  1053. moparisthebest (disclaimer: I wouldn't write production code like this but a one-off? absolutely)
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