XSF Discussion - 2021-11-11


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  226. jonas’ Holger, I don't quite get where '413 duplicates anything with RSM, can you enlighten me?
  227. jonas’ (when you get the chance, anyway)
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  229. jonas’ to me, it only extends PubSub (and '313 for soe rea
  230. jonas’ as I see it, it only extends PubSub (and '313 for some reason), it only has an example for PubSub+RSM+'413
  231. Holger jonas’: I didn't say it duplicates RSM. It extends it in the same way as '313 Flipped Pages.
  232. jonas’ how does it so?
  233. Holger Reversing ordering?
  234. jonas’ flipping a page is different from reversing the entire result set
  235. Holger Ah yes '413 _now_ does both (since the last revision).
  236. jonas’ I can't find it in the text, what keyword do I look for?
  237. Holger No I mean you're right, behavior is different now.
  238. jonas’ for the record: result set: A B C D E F, page size = 2, reversed ordering: [F E] [D C] [B A], flipped pages (non-reversed): [B A] [D C] [F E]
  239. Holger It makes no sense to me to have Flipped Pages in '313. But that's too late anyway. The thing that could still be avoided is the duplication _within_ '413.
  240. jonas’ AFAIK, '413 only does reversed ordering, not flipping pages, so there's no duplication with the thing MAM does (which IMO also only makes sense in the context of MAM, which streams its results instead of sending it as a single IQ stanza)
  241. jonas’ okay, and where's the duplication within '413?
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  243. jonas’ (I'm asking because I just replied to goffi on-list and I'd like to make concrete suggestions for improval for '413 if there is anything wrong with it, so I was checking it based on your comments from today and I fail to find it; might be lack of awakeness in the early morning though)
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  245. Holger My email on the list was unclear?
  246. Holger '60 basically has two mechanisms for retrieving item sets.
  247. jonas’ okay, so you'd move the '413 logic into the '59 element instead of the '60 element?
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  249. Holger '413 extends both.
  250. jonas’ I still fail to see that in the text, sorry
  251. jonas’ oh
  252. jonas’ by both you mean both mechanisms in '60, sorry
  253. jonas’ I thought you meant '59 and '60
  254. jonas’ aha!
  255. jonas’ so you're saying '413 should drop the text for plain '60 retrieval and only support '60+'59
  256. Holger '413 example 4 vs. example 7.
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  258. Holger Yes.
  259. jonas’ I see '60+'59 as a special case of plain '60 item retrieval, I think that's where my confusion came from.
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  261. jonas’ so to me, example 7 is just a logical extension of example 4, not an entirely different thing. hence, no duplication in my mind.
  262. jonas’ Thanks for clearing that up for me :)
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  265. Holger '60 even has some text that we "might recommend '59 in the future" or something. I'm just suggesting to do that now 🙂
  266. Holger Sorry I'm distracted and no good at explaining my point right now.
  267. jonas’ it's not you, it's me ;)
  268. jonas’ the only argument I'd have against changing '413 to become a generic mechanism only on top of '59 is that it feels like a potential premature overgeneralization and might lead to a generic standard which doesn't do anything completely right (which would fit with '60, mind ;)).
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  270. jonas’ but thanks a lot, I get your point much more clearly now
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  291. Holger FTR, that's the text I meant: > Note: A future version of this specification may recommend the use of XEP-0059 instead of the 'max_items' attribute. [ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-retrieve-requestrecent ]
  292. flow Kev, I note that there is an exception of the "have to be new" rule: As an exception, returning GSoC Contributors may apply to the same organizations they participated with previously.
  293. flow from https://developers.google.com/open-source/gsoc/faq
  294. flow but yes the changes look good. especially since it is now possible to extend the deadline
  295. flow I am not sure if I like the "have to be new" rule, especially since it is qualified by "non-trival changes"
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  329. Holger jonas’, > the only argument I'd have against changing '413 to become a generic mechanism only on top of '59 is that it feels like a potential premature overgeneralization and might lead to a generic standard which doesn't do anything completely right I'd share that concern if I was suggesting actual protocol changes for turning a specific mechanism into something generic. My point is rather that the semantics are generic already, and just the syntax makes it MAM/PubSub-specific for no good reason. The thing that's not generic is the ordering criteria (the `by` attribute). (I understand how it might be easier to specify those within '413 as well, due to our workflows.)
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  333. Holger To mention the '313 example once again (sorry), I'm totally not suggesting to come up with some generic filtering mechanism. It's just that flipping pages _is_ a generic thing as-is, and therefore it's wrong to have it in '313.
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  344. emus > flow escribió: > I am not sure if I like the "have to be new" rule, especially since it is qualified by "non-trival changes" can you elaborate a bit more?
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  353. flow well it the past it's been ok-ish if an existing project contributor became a gsoc student, even though gsoc always tried to incentivize new contributors (as opposed to "paying" existing ones)
  354. flow however, incentivize existing contributors to work a large scale project, like adding some big new feature, for multiple months, is also beneficial for the FOSS ecosystem
  355. flow especially since those contributors are already very familar with the codebase
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  358. flow now there is some rule that requires once to discuss what constitutes non-trivial changes (and what not)
  359. Maranda dwd: your security labels related libraries happen to have Lua bindings?
  360. Maranda dwd: does your security labels related libraries happen to have Lua bindings?
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  364. emus flow: ok thanks. Then we should definitively review this for XSF as host
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  367. Kev > well it the past it's been ok-ish if an existing project contributor became a gsoc student, even though gsoc always tried to incentivize new contributors (as opposed to "paying" existing ones) It's not been preferred though. I asked Stephanie directly about it a few years ago when we had an existing contributor apply (for one of your projects, I think), and she said it wasn't really in the spirit of it and we should put them at the bottom of our list and only accept them if we got all the slots we asked for.
  368. Holger So the spirit is "recruit new contributors" rather than "produce new contributions".
  369. Kev Holger: Yeah.
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  378. emus Kev: Thanks, then its indeed important to start early
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  397. dwd Maranda, No, but it's straightforward C++, so should be simple enough to do.
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  400. Maranda dwd: ok 👌
  401. dwd It is a bit of a pain with resource allocation, though, I've wondered about including a cache management layer to make that easier.
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  406. Maranda dealing with MM is the part I wanted to exactly avoid myself considering time allowance to play with that stuff is what it is already unfortunately, but I'll give it a check as soon as time allows.
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  420. goffi Holger, jonas’: (re: XEP-0413) it would make sense to put XEP-0413 in RSM as suggest Holger. I'm against removing MAM support and I actually think that MAM should be the defaut way of querying a pubsub service (I've answered to your message jonas’ with reasoning). I'm very busy now so I can't really follow closely this room, please send to standard@ if you have suggestions for 413.
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  422. jonas’ goffi, thanks, will do
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  453. Holger Yes, with PubSub-MAM there's a third item set retrieval mechanism. \o/
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  460. jonas’ I never got the idea of PubSub-MAM, I'm out :)
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  468. goffi jonas’: Full-Text Search on my blog (https://www.goffi.org/) is powered by Pubsub MAM
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  550. Sam In case anyone is interested, next weeks office hours are an experiment to see if a virtual co-working hour would work. Feel free to show up (not the usual time) and hack on your favorite project, or just hang out! https://opencollective.com/xmpp-office-hours-virtual-co-working-hour-791e55a7
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  586. emus 👍
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  692. arc Meeting time?
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  694. arc Serious question, I really don't know anymore
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  704. MattJ Sounds plausible :)
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  708. MattJ > 16:59:13 ralphm> Can't make it today, but +1 on proceeding with GSoC
  709. MattJ I think this was in the wrong channel
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  711. dwd Sorry, I'm hear but was miles away mentally.
  712. dwd Here, even. There's some proof. :-)
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  771. ralphm Yes 😴
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  961. emus https://fosstodon.org/web/@xmpp/107260354354538467
  962. emus Sorry, my bad: You don't need to be a student anymore!
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  985. emus @all with access to the XSF twitter account: could you mimic the recent three on Fosstodon in the correct order in the Twitter account so that it is aligned? If you need help with the pictures let me know. https://fosstodon.org/web/@xmpp that would be a great support
  986. emus ahh - wait - another post is in the make
  987. emus ahh - wait - another post on its way
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  991. emus Ok now its ready
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