XSF Discussion - 2021-11-25

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  250. jcbrand Howdy. Would it make sense to create a new XEP for embedding Open Graph data in a stanza, like Prosody's mod_ogp does? https://modules.prosody.im/mod_ogp.html This is used for URL previews (unfurls) in Converse.
  251. jcbrand It's one, simple implementation of XEP-0422 message fastening.
  252. Daniel Embedding open graph is a good idea. What worries me slightly is depending on a fairly complex XEP of which we don't know if it's going somewhere
  253. Daniel That's not a no
  254. Kev a) Yes, I think it makes sense b) Does it make sense to bring all of the OGP elements together in one parent, rather than having them all as children of the apply-to?
  255. Kev (b is not a rhetorical question)
  256. jcbrand Daniel: I'm using message fastening for various things in Converse and IMO it works well. It's also used for message retractions and message moderation.
  257. Kev (I think I've persuaded myself that the answer to (b) is 'no', and what you've already done is the sensible thing)
  258. Daniel jcbrand: good to know. I just vaguely remember some negative feedback when it was first introduced 2 years ago
  259. Kev But I also haven't had any sleep because of security alarm issues, so my judgement may be somewhat impaired.
  260. Daniel But it's good to know people are using it successfully
  261. jcbrand Kev: I honestly don't know whether it's better or not. Sounds like the kind of feedback that could come from having a XEP 🙂
  262. flow Kev, what persuaded you? :)
  263. Kev flow: I couldn't immediately persuade myself that wrapping would be *better*, and absent anything better, simple wins.
  264. Kev My niggling, though, is that these are not independent payloads (like e.g. reactions), but are essentially details of a single - which then speaks to the answer being 'yes' :)
  265. Alex memberbot is still online until ourmember meeting later today, when you are a XSF member and have not voted yet please do so.
  266. jcbrand I actually also lean towards yes. Putting everything inside an element with XMLNS urn:xmpp:ogp
  267. flow yep, but I guess it's hard to change now that it's already in the wild
  268. Kev JC: So do I, now.
  269. flow but mostly depends on the implementations, and one could support both formats
  270. jcbrand I'm not aware of any other implementations besides mod_ogp and Converse
  271. jcbrand Also mod_tweet_data
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  397. jcbrand I updated the DOAP files for Strophe and Converse 2 weeks ago, but they're still no showing on https://xmpp.org. Does someone have to manually trigger a build? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/35c54712164418ef74ee46067c1c4c09e5ac9f5b
  398. Zash I can poke it, if all it takes is a rebuild
  399. Link Mauve jcbrand, you updated the wrong Strophe, you updated the C libstrophe, and not Strophe.js.
  400. jcbrand Thanks
  401. jcbrand Ah
  402. jcbrand Well it can also get updated
  403. jcbrand Zash: please wait a moment
  404. Link Mauve On that note, you could also update it to use HTTPS in the link, and if you control the domain make it an automated redirection with HSTS and HSTS preload.
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  408. jcbrand Done. OK if I just push? Or should I create a PR?
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  410. jcbrand Ok, I'm pushing...
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  519. Zash Awkward: XEP-0459: XMPP Compliance Suites 2022 points to XEP-0411: Bookmarks Conversion which has been Deprecated...
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  533. jonas’ luckily, it's just draft, not final
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  535. jonas’ I'm sure next council will love to fix that, wanna make a PR?
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  537. Zash And risk becoming the Compliance Suite Author? :S
  538. dwd Finally got DNS resolution working on my Openfire container again. No idea why docker makes DNS so difficult. Many apologies for missing the last Council meeting. :-(
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  546. MattJ You're excused if you can blame docker
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  556. dwd It seems to block DNS unless you explciitly create a network, and even then it rewrites the /etc/resolv.conf on container start so it breaks. Mystery to me.
  557. jonas’ huh
  558. Kev Uhm. It shouldn't do that.
  559. jonas’ I think you might be holding it wrong.
  560. Kev ^
  561. dwd Well, I know it shouldn't.
  562. dwd Individual containers work, but those in a docker-compose do not, unless you explcitly create a new network.
  563. jonas’ doesn't docker-compose **always** create a new network?
  564. jonas’ I wish it wouldn't
  565. Kev I think you can persuade it not to, but yes.
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  567. dwd Yes, but it creates a default bridge network. Those don't do DNS. You need an explicitly created bridge network for DNS, apparently.
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  569. jonas’ … they do?
  570. jonas’ i.e. wfm
  571. dwd Oh. Well, I have the stuff working, kind of, now.
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  573. Kev seldom:/docker/git-wfh$ cat docker-compose.yaml version: '3' services: proxy: restart: always image: git-wfh volumes: - ./repositories:/repositories env_file: environment ports: - "9022:22" seldom:/docker/git-wfh$ sudo docker-compose exec proxy /bin/bash root@d1f9dd5e803f:/# ping xmpp.org PING xmpp.org ( 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from ( icmp_seq=1 ttl=50 time=78.4 ms 64 bytes from ( icmp_seq=2 ttl=50 time=78.1 ms
  574. Kev (A little off topic, but ... no network defined in that file, and resolution works)
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  578. arc Morning
  579. adiaholic has joined
  580. MattJ o/
  581. arc Dwd your last board meeting
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  583. dwd It is indeed.
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  585. arc Looks like we're bringing in JC
  586. ralphm bangs gavel
  587. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  588. ralphm Welcome to the last Board Meeting of the 2020/2021 term!
  589. jonas’ on the 635th of March, 2020
  590. ralphm It appears we are all present, so let's get started. What agenda items do we have?
  591. ralphm jonas’: hah
  592. ralphm jonas’: so is the next term named 2020/2022?
  593. jonas’ that would be appropriate, and retroactively renaming this term to 2020/2020
  594. MattJ I don't have anything for the agenda this week
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  596. ralphm arc, dwd?
  597. dwd I have nothing, beyond thanks for the memories.
  598. arc It would be nice to wrap up some of the things we started
  599. arc Leave the next board with a clean slate, or at least something closer to one
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  602. arc Of course here in the states it is Thanksgiving so I'm also not really wanting a long board meeting
  603. Kev May we give thanks for the people on Board and Council keeping the lights on :)
  604. ralphm I don't think there are any long-running items still going?
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  607. ralphm Kev: indeed. And thanks for the people outside of those two teams, for keeping us on our toes!
  608. jonas’ syncing the last state from your minds into the trello board would make sense
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  610. ralphm Yep
  611. ralphm Well, some items on there are from before this term even. It needs thorough clean up, which I will look into
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  619. ralphm I think all has been said for now, tbh.
  620. ralphm Thank you all for your efforts this term, hope next term/year will be a much better one, for XMPP and personally!
  621. ralphm 1. Date of Next
  622. ralphm I pencil in +1W, to welcome the next Board after today's elections.
  623. millesimus has left
  624. ralphm 2. Close
  625. ralphm Thanks all!
  626. MattJ Thanks all!
  627. dwd Thanks ralphm!
  628. jonas’ Thank you Board for your service with the things I as a tech person don't want to have to deal with :)
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  630. dwd And thanks MattJ and arc for keeping going next year.
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  633. ralphm dwd: don't be a stranger :D
  634. ralphm bangs gavel
  635. arc Who is dwd? 😅
  636. dwd Speaking of that meeting, I'd best vote.
  637. ralphm That escalated quickly!
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  643. arc I can't vote, tried repeatedly but Memberbot doesn't recognize me.
  644. arc I'll vote in the meeting
  645. Link Mauve Alex, ↑
  646. jonas’ Kev or MattJ, can someone verify Alex' identity and then promote him to admin so that he can see the identities of others during the meeting for voting purposes?
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  649. jonas’ or, indeed, ralphm
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  651. MattJ Done
  652. jonas’ :+1: thanks
  653. Alex arc, just let me know what your preferred Jid is and I will make sure you can vote
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  656. arc This election I'm just going to affirmatively vote yes to everyone.
  657. arc I had a domain name expire by accident so that needs to be fixed
  658. Alex I have the concordance.io on file
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  669. arc Yep.
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  742. Alex look like its meeting time
  743. Alex will start in 2 minutes
  744. Seve Alex: memberbot does not reply to me 😔
  745. Alex Seve: we will fix during the meeting
  746. Alex bangs the gavel
  747. Alex here is our agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2021-11-25
  748. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  749. Alex as you can see 35 members voted via proxy. So we already have a quorum
  750. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  751. Alex Board and Council election, you can see the application page here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2021
  752. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting
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  754. Alex Seve, when you give me your jid I will check the whitelist and make sure you can vote
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  756. Alex Seve, you still want to vote?
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  758. Alex Seve, can you try to vote?
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  761. Alex arc: you wanted to vote in the meeting as well
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  764. Seve Alex: perfect! Thank you!
  765. dwd I thought I'd say something just so Alex knows someone is watching. :-)
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  767. Kev something
  768. Alex Seve: have your vote recorded
  769. Alex looks like Arc is not here right now
  770. Seve Alex: yes 🙂
  771. Alex lets wait 2 more minutes, then I start working on the results
  772. Link Mauve Alex, arc already mentioned publicly the results he wanted to give.
  773. Link Mauve Alex, arc already mentioned publicly the votes he wanted to give.
  774. Link Mauve “18:32:02 arc> This election I'm just going to affirmatively vote yes to everyone.”
  775. arc Yup.
  776. arc Thanks Link
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  778. Alex yes, but I need them in the meeting, Arc can you post it again?
  779. Zash Election secrecy is SACRED!
  780. Alex or I add your Jif to the whitelist and you can vote quickly
  781. arc Sure. I vote yes to everyone on the ballot.
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  783. Alex 👍
  784. Alex okay, then we have 37 voters, pretty good this time
  785. Alex will shutdown memberbot then and start working on the results
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  787. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  788. Alex when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2021-11-25#Announcement_of_Voting_Results You can see the results
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  790. Alex all candiates are accepted
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  794. Link Mauve Congrats everyone!
  795. TheCoffeMaker has joined
  796. Zash Congratulations!
  797. Alex congrats to everyone, and thanks for applying and volunteering to those roles
  798. Link Mauve And thanks for running. :)
  799. Alex 5) Any other Business?
  800. dwd Many thanks for doing this once again, Alex.
  801. Alex looks like there is no other business
  802. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  803. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  804. jcbrand Lots of warm and fuzzies in this room right now. Thanks everyone for your time and energy
  805. dwd Seconded!
  806. Alex bangs the gavel
  807. Alex thanks everyone
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  810. Kev Thanks Alex.
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  816. guus.der.kinderen Thanks Alex!
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  826. emus Many thanks Alex! I think the election participation should be listed for recent years
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  829. Link Mauve This election brings to the spotlight something I’d really like to change in the decision process, but I’m clueless how: a kind of justification of the votes. We overwhelmingly vote “yes” in most elections, and this silences any “no” that gets thrown in, yet I have a hunch that those “no” carry a meaning that is forgotten in the process.
  830. Link Mauve I have no idea which form it could take, perhaps a discussion venue for members to encourage others to vote like them, or at least try to.
  831. Link Mauve Because more than 20% of us have been dissatisfied with some candidates, I feel like there is a reason which other members might not see just from the application pages or from daily interactions with the applicants.
  832. Link Mauve Do we have any data from similar organisations which tried to tackle this issue?
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  859. emus Link Mauve, where did you see the No-votes?
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  862. Link Mauve emus, there were 37 members who voted, and candidates got 29 to 36 votes, you can subtract one number to the other to get how many people didn’t want to see each candidate elected.
  863. emus ah yes
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  865. emus Ok, so what you have in mind to reject election if "no-vote" reaches a specific percentage?
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  867. Link Mauve No, I’d like to have some way(s) for members to influence others, not as a direct “do/don’t vote for that person” obviously, but something different than what we do today.
  868. Zash Ranked voting?
  869. Link Mauve Changing the percentage of votes to accept someone wouldn’t solve anything, we’d just have fewer people elected in the end.
  870. Link Mauve I still think each vote should be equal, whether you vote “yes” or “no”.
  871. Link Mauve Same reason I once wanted to know why people voted against me once I got elected for council a few years ago I think, so that I could improve on it.
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  907. larma If you want to (anonymously) lobby for or against a candidate, you can already do so by writing mails to lists or messages in chat. So any attempt to influence others are already possible. However, I do like the idea to give anonymous feedback about candidates. We could add a feature to Memberbot to add a comment after the vote for each candidate. Memberbot collects those comments for each candidate and returns them to Alex independent of the vote results. Alex either forwards them to the candidate or just publishes them as part of the meeting minutes.
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  913. larma That would of course require to change the voting model for board/council, as right now you don't vote for each person with 'yes' or 'no', but you just pick those you want to vote yes for. I think this is the reason why we see less votes in favor in board/council voting than in membership votes: abstain and 'no' are very similar in board/council votes, in membership votes you have to decide between 'yes' and 'no', probably causing people that would like to abstain to end up with a 'yes' - at least that's what I tend to do
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  915. Zash Negative parlamentarism?
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  961. Ge0rG Like in council, require a comment on a -1 vote?
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  981. dwd This just sounds like a way to further demoralise newly elected Council/Board people, to be honest.
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