XSF Discussion - 2021-11-25

Howdy. Would it make sense to create a new XEP for embedding Open Graph data in a stanza, like Prosody's mod_ogp does? https://modules.prosody.im/mod_ogp.html This is used for URL previews (unfurls) in Converse.

It's one, simple implementation of XEP-0422 message fastening.

Embedding open graph is a good idea. What worries me slightly is depending on a fairly complex XEP of which we don't know if it's going somewhere

That's not a no

a) Yes, I think it makes sense b) Does it make sense to bring all of the OGP elements together in one parent, rather than having them all as children of the apply-to?

(b is not a rhetorical question)

Daniel: I'm using message fastening for various things in Converse and IMO it works well. It's also used for message retractions and message moderation.

(I think I've persuaded myself that the answer to (b) is 'no', and what you've already done is the sensible thing)

jcbrand: good to know. I just vaguely remember some negative feedback when it was first introduced 2 years ago

But I also haven't had any sleep because of security alarm issues, so my judgement may be somewhat impaired.

But it's good to know people are using it successfully

Kev: I honestly don't know whether it's better or not. Sounds like the kind of feedback that could come from having a XEP 🙂

Kev, what persuaded you? :)

flow: I couldn't immediately persuade myself that wrapping would be *better*, and absent anything better, simple wins.

My niggling, though, is that these are not independent payloads (like e.g. reactions), but are essentially details of a single - which then speaks to the answer being 'yes' :)

memberbot is still online until ourmember meeting later today, when you are a XSF member and have not voted yet please do so.

I actually also lean towards yes. Putting everything inside an element with XMLNS urn:xmpp:ogp

yep, but I guess it's hard to change now that it's already in the wild

JC: So do I, now.

but mostly depends on the implementations, and one could support both formats

I'm not aware of any other implementations besides mod_ogp and Converse

Also mod_tweet_data

I updated the DOAP files for Strophe and Converse 2 weeks ago, but they're still no showing on https://xmpp.org. Does someone have to manually trigger a build? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/35c54712164418ef74ee46067c1c4c09e5ac9f5b

I can poke it, if all it takes is a rebuild

jcbrand, you updated the wrong Strophe, you updated the C libstrophe, and not Strophe.js.

Thanks

Ah

Well it can also get updated

Zash: please wait a moment

On that note, you could also update it to use HTTPS in the link, and if you control the domain make it an automated redirection with HSTS and HSTS preload.

Done. OK if I just push? Or should I create a PR?

Ok, I'm pushing...

Awkward: XEP-0459: XMPP Compliance Suites 2022 points to XEP-0411: Bookmarks Conversion which has been Deprecated...

luckily, it's just draft, not final

I'm sure next council will love to fix that, wanna make a PR?

And risk becoming the Compliance Suite Author? :S

Finally got DNS resolution working on my Openfire container again. No idea why docker makes DNS so difficult. Many apologies for missing the last Council meeting. :-(

You're excused if you can blame docker

It seems to block DNS unless you explciitly create a network, and even then it rewrites the /etc/resolv.conf on container start so it breaks. Mystery to me.

huh

Uhm. It shouldn't do that.

I think you might be holding it wrong.

^

Well, I know it shouldn't.

Individual containers work, but those in a docker-compose do not, unless you explcitly create a new network.

doesn't docker-compose **always** create a new network?

I wish it wouldn't

I think you can persuade it not to, but yes.

Yes, but it creates a default bridge network. Those don't do DNS. You need an explicitly created bridge network for DNS, apparently.

… they do?

i.e. wfm

Oh. Well, I have the stuff working, kind of, now.

seldom:/docker/git-wfh$ cat docker-compose.yaml version: '3' services: proxy: restart: always image: git-wfh volumes: - ./repositories:/repositories env_file: environment ports: - "9022:22" seldom:/docker/git-wfh$ sudo docker-compose exec proxy /bin/bash root@d1f9dd5e803f:/# ping xmpp.org PING xmpp.org (104.248.10.4) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from 104.248.10.4 (104.248.10.4): icmp_seq=1 ttl=50 time=78.4 ms 64 bytes from 104.248.10.4 (104.248.10.4): icmp_seq=2 ttl=50 time=78.1 ms

(A little off topic, but ... no network defined in that file, and resolution works)

Morning

o/

Dwd your last board meeting

It is indeed.

Looks like we're bringing in JC

0. Welcome + Agenda

Welcome to the last Board Meeting of the 2020/2021 term!

on the 635th of March, 2020

It appears we are all present, so let's get started. What agenda items do we have?

jonas’: hah

jonas’: so is the next term named 2020/2022?

that would be appropriate, and retroactively renaming this term to 2020/2020

I don't have anything for the agenda this week

arc, dwd?

I have nothing, beyond thanks for the memories.

It would be nice to wrap up some of the things we started

Leave the next board with a clean slate, or at least something closer to one

Of course here in the states it is Thanksgiving so I'm also not really wanting a long board meeting

May we give thanks for the people on Board and Council keeping the lights on :)

I don't think there are any long-running items still going?

Kev: indeed. And thanks for the people outside of those two teams, for keeping us on our toes!

syncing the last state from your minds into the trello board would make sense

Yep

Well, some items on there are from before this term even. It needs thorough clean up, which I will look into

I think all has been said for now, tbh.

Thank you all for your efforts this term, hope next term/year will be a much better one, for XMPP and personally!

1. Date of Next

I pencil in +1W, to welcome the next Board after today's elections.

2. Close

Thanks all!

Thanks all!

Thanks ralphm!

Thank you Board for your service with the things I as a tech person don't want to have to deal with :)

And thanks MattJ and arc for keeping going next year.

dwd: don't be a stranger :D

Who is dwd? 😅

Speaking of that meeting, I'd best vote.

That escalated quickly!

I can't vote, tried repeatedly but Memberbot doesn't recognize me.

I'll vote in the meeting

Alex, ↑

Kev or MattJ, can someone verify Alex' identity and then promote him to admin so that he can see the identities of others during the meeting for voting purposes?

or, indeed, ralphm

Done

:+1: thanks

arc, just let me know what your preferred Jid is and I will make sure you can vote

This election I'm just going to affirmatively vote yes to everyone.

I had a domain name expire by accident so that needs to be fixed

I have the concordance.io on file

Yep.

look like its meeting time

will start in 2 minutes

Alex: memberbot does not reply to me 😔

Seve: we will fix during the meeting

here is our agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2021-11-25

1) Call for Quorum

as you can see 35 members voted via proxy. So we already have a quorum

2) Items Subject to a Vote

Board and Council election, you can see the application page here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2021

3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting

Seve, when you give me your jid I will check the whitelist and make sure you can vote

Seve, you still want to vote?

Seve, can you try to vote?

arc: you wanted to vote in the meeting as well

Alex: perfect! Thank you!

I thought I'd say something just so Alex knows someone is watching. :-)

something

Seve: have your vote recorded

looks like Arc is not here right now

Alex: yes 🙂

lets wait 2 more minutes, then I start working on the results

Alex, arc already mentioned publicly the votes he wanted to give. ✏

“18:32:02 arc> This election I'm just going to affirmatively vote yes to everyone.”

Yup.

Thanks Link

yes, but I need them in the meeting, Arc can you post it again?

Election secrecy is SACRED!

or I add your Jif to the whitelist and you can vote quickly

Sure. I vote yes to everyone on the ballot.

👍

okay, then we have 37 voters, pretty good this time

will shutdown memberbot then and start working on the results

4) Announcement of Voting Results

when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2021-11-25#Announcement_of_Voting_Results You can see the results

all candiates are accepted

Congrats everyone!

Congratulations!

congrats to everyone, and thanks for applying and volunteering to those roles

And thanks for running. :)

5) Any other Business?

Many thanks for doing this once again, Alex.

looks like there is no other business

6) Formal Adjournment

I motion that we adjourn

Lots of warm and fuzzies in this room right now. Thanks everyone for your time and energy

Seconded!

thanks everyone

Thanks Alex.

Thanks Alex!

Many thanks Alex! I think the election participation should be listed for recent years

This election brings to the spotlight something I’d really like to change in the decision process, but I’m clueless how: a kind of justification of the votes. We overwhelmingly vote “yes” in most elections, and this silences any “no” that gets thrown in, yet I have a hunch that those “no” carry a meaning that is forgotten in the process.

I have no idea which form it could take, perhaps a discussion venue for members to encourage others to vote like them, or at least try to.

Because more than 20% of us have been dissatisfied with some candidates, I feel like there is a reason which other members might not see just from the application pages or from daily interactions with the applicants.

Do we have any data from similar organisations which tried to tackle this issue?

Link Mauve, where did you see the No-votes?

emus, there were 37 members who voted, and candidates got 29 to 36 votes, you can subtract one number to the other to get how many people didn’t want to see each candidate elected.

ah yes

Ok, so what you have in mind to reject election if "no-vote" reaches a specific percentage?

No, I’d like to have some way(s) for members to influence others, not as a direct “do/don’t vote for that person” obviously, but something different than what we do today.

Ranked voting?

Changing the percentage of votes to accept someone wouldn’t solve anything, we’d just have fewer people elected in the end.

I still think each vote should be equal, whether you vote “yes” or “no”.

Same reason I once wanted to know why people voted against me once I got elected for council a few years ago I think, so that I could improve on it.

If you want to (anonymously) lobby for or against a candidate, you can already do so by writing mails to lists or messages in chat. So any attempt to influence others are already possible. However, I do like the idea to give anonymous feedback about candidates. We could add a feature to Memberbot to add a comment after the vote for each candidate. Memberbot collects those comments for each candidate and returns them to Alex independent of the vote results. Alex either forwards them to the candidate or just publishes them as part of the meeting minutes.

That would of course require to change the voting model for board/council, as right now you don't vote for each person with 'yes' or 'no', but you just pick those you want to vote yes for. I think this is the reason why we see less votes in favor in board/council voting than in membership votes: abstain and 'no' are very similar in board/council votes, in membership votes you have to decide between 'yes' and 'no', probably causing people that would like to abstain to end up with a 'yes' - at least that's what I tend to do

Negative parlamentarism?

Like in council, require a comment on a -1 vote?

This just sounds like a way to further demoralise newly elected Council/Board people, to be honest.