XSF Discussion - 2021-11-25


  1. jcbrand

    Howdy. Would it make sense to create a new XEP for embedding Open Graph data in a stanza, like Prosody's mod_ogp does? https://modules.prosody.im/mod_ogp.html This is used for URL previews (unfurls) in Converse.

  2. jcbrand

    It's one, simple implementation of XEP-0422 message fastening.

  3. Daniel

    Embedding open graph is a good idea. What worries me slightly is depending on a fairly complex XEP of which we don't know if it's going somewhere

  4. Daniel

    That's not a no

  5. Kev

    a) Yes, I think it makes sense b) Does it make sense to bring all of the OGP elements together in one parent, rather than having them all as children of the apply-to?

  6. Kev

    (b is not a rhetorical question)

  7. jcbrand

    Daniel: I'm using message fastening for various things in Converse and IMO it works well. It's also used for message retractions and message moderation.

  8. Kev

    (I think I've persuaded myself that the answer to (b) is 'no', and what you've already done is the sensible thing)

  9. Daniel

    jcbrand: good to know. I just vaguely remember some negative feedback when it was first introduced 2 years ago

  10. Kev

    But I also haven't had any sleep because of security alarm issues, so my judgement may be somewhat impaired.

  11. Daniel

    But it's good to know people are using it successfully

  12. jcbrand

    Kev: I honestly don't know whether it's better or not. Sounds like the kind of feedback that could come from having a XEP šŸ™‚

  13. flow

    Kev, what persuaded you? :)

  14. Kev

    flow: I couldn't immediately persuade myself that wrapping would be *better*, and absent anything better, simple wins.

  15. Kev

    My niggling, though, is that these are not independent payloads (like e.g. reactions), but are essentially details of a single - which then speaks to the answer being 'yes' :)

  16. Alex

    memberbot is still online until ourmember meeting later today, when you are a XSF member and have not voted yet please do so.

  17. jcbrand

    I actually also lean towards yes. Putting everything inside an element with XMLNS urn:xmpp:ogp

  18. flow

    yep, but I guess it's hard to change now that it's already in the wild

  19. Kev

    JC: So do I, now.

  20. flow

    but mostly depends on the implementations, and one could support both formats

  21. jcbrand

    I'm not aware of any other implementations besides mod_ogp and Converse

  22. jcbrand

    Also mod_tweet_data

  23. jcbrand

    I updated the DOAP files for Strophe and Converse 2 weeks ago, but they're still no showing on https://xmpp.org. Does someone have to manually trigger a build? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/35c54712164418ef74ee46067c1c4c09e5ac9f5b

  24. Zash

    I can poke it, if all it takes is a rebuild

  25. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, you updated the wrong Strophe, you updated the C libstrophe, and not Strophe.js.

  26. jcbrand

    Thanks

  27. jcbrand

    Ah

  28. jcbrand

    Well it can also get updated

  29. jcbrand

    Zash: please wait a moment

  30. Link Mauve

    On that note, you could also update it to use HTTPS in the link, and if you control the domain make it an automated redirection with HSTS and HSTS preload.

  31. jcbrand

    Done. OK if I just push? Or should I create a PR?

  32. jcbrand

    Ok, I'm pushing...

  33. Zash

    Awkward: XEP-0459: XMPP Compliance Suites 2022 points to XEP-0411: Bookmarks Conversion which has been Deprecated...

  34. jonasā€™

    luckily, it's just draft, not final

  35. jonasā€™

    I'm sure next council will love to fix that, wanna make a PR?

  36. Zash

    And risk becoming the Compliance Suite Author? :S

  37. dwd

    Finally got DNS resolution working on my Openfire container again. No idea why docker makes DNS so difficult. Many apologies for missing the last Council meeting. :-(

  38. MattJ

    You're excused if you can blame docker

  39. dwd

    It seems to block DNS unless you explciitly create a network, and even then it rewrites the /etc/resolv.conf on container start so it breaks. Mystery to me.

  40. jonasā€™

    huh

  41. Kev

    Uhm. It shouldn't do that.

  42. jonasā€™

    I think you might be holding it wrong.

  43. Kev

    ^

  44. dwd

    Well, I know it shouldn't.

  45. dwd

    Individual containers work, but those in a docker-compose do not, unless you explcitly create a new network.

  46. jonasā€™

    doesn't docker-compose **always** create a new network?

  47. jonasā€™

    I wish it wouldn't

  48. Kev

    I think you can persuade it not to, but yes.

  49. dwd

    Yes, but it creates a default bridge network. Those don't do DNS. You need an explicitly created bridge network for DNS, apparently.

  50. jonasā€™

    ā€¦ they do?

  51. jonasā€™

    i.e. wfm

  52. dwd

    Oh. Well, I have the stuff working, kind of, now.

  53. Kev

    seldom:/docker/git-wfh$ cat docker-compose.yaml version: '3' services: proxy: restart: always image: git-wfh volumes: - ./repositories:/repositories env_file: environment ports: - "9022:22" seldom:/docker/git-wfh$ sudo docker-compose exec proxy /bin/bash root@d1f9dd5e803f:/# ping xmpp.org PING xmpp.org (104.248.10.4) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from 104.248.10.4 (104.248.10.4): icmp_seq=1 ttl=50 time=78.4 ms 64 bytes from 104.248.10.4 (104.248.10.4): icmp_seq=2 ttl=50 time=78.1 ms

  54. Kev

    (A little off topic, but ... no network defined in that file, and resolution works)

  55. arc

    Morning

  56. MattJ

    o/

  57. arc

    Dwd your last board meeting

  58. dwd

    It is indeed.

  59. arc

    Looks like we're bringing in JC

  60. ralphm bangs gavel

  61. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  62. ralphm

    Welcome to the last Board Meeting of the 2020/2021 term!

  63. jonasā€™

    on the 635th of March, 2020

  64. ralphm

    It appears we are all present, so let's get started. What agenda items do we have?

  65. ralphm

    jonasā€™: hah

  66. ralphm

    jonasā€™: so is the next term named 2020/2022?

  67. jonasā€™

    that would be appropriate, and retroactively renaming this term to 2020/2020

  68. MattJ

    I don't have anything for the agenda this week

  69. ralphm

    arc, dwd?

  70. dwd

    I have nothing, beyond thanks for the memories.

  71. arc

    It would be nice to wrap up some of the things we started

  72. arc

    Leave the next board with a clean slate, or at least something closer to one

  73. arc

    Of course here in the states it is Thanksgiving so I'm also not really wanting a long board meeting

  74. Kev

    May we give thanks for the people on Board and Council keeping the lights on :)

  75. ralphm

    I don't think there are any long-running items still going?

  76. ralphm

    Kev: indeed. And thanks for the people outside of those two teams, for keeping us on our toes!

  77. jonasā€™

    syncing the last state from your minds into the trello board would make sense

  78. ralphm

    Yep

  79. ralphm

    Well, some items on there are from before this term even. It needs thorough clean up, which I will look into

  80. ralphm

    I think all has been said for now, tbh.

  81. ralphm

    Thank you all for your efforts this term, hope next term/year will be a much better one, for XMPP and personally!

  82. ralphm

    1. Date of Next

  83. ralphm

    I pencil in +1W, to welcome the next Board after today's elections.

  84. ralphm

    2. Close

  85. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  86. MattJ

    Thanks all!

  87. dwd

    Thanks ralphm!

  88. jonasā€™

    Thank you Board for your service with the things I as a tech person don't want to have to deal with :)

  89. dwd

    And thanks MattJ and arc for keeping going next year.

  90. ralphm

    dwd: don't be a stranger :D

  91. ralphm bangs gavel

  92. arc

    Who is dwd? šŸ˜…

  93. dwd

    Speaking of that meeting, I'd best vote.

  94. ralphm

    That escalated quickly!

  95. arc

    I can't vote, tried repeatedly but Memberbot doesn't recognize me.

  96. arc

    I'll vote in the meeting

  97. Link Mauve

    Alex, ā†‘

  98. jonasā€™

    Kev or MattJ, can someone verify Alex' identity and then promote him to admin so that he can see the identities of others during the meeting for voting purposes?

  99. jonasā€™

    or, indeed, ralphm

  100. MattJ

    Done

  101. jonasā€™

    :+1: thanks

  102. Alex

    arc, just let me know what your preferred Jid is and I will make sure you can vote

  103. arc

    This election I'm just going to affirmatively vote yes to everyone.

  104. arc

    I had a domain name expire by accident so that needs to be fixed

  105. Alex

    I have the concordance.io on file

  106. arc

    Yep.

  107. Alex

    look like its meeting time

  108. Alex

    will start in 2 minutes

  109. Seve

    Alex: memberbot does not reply to me šŸ˜”

  110. Alex

    Seve: we will fix during the meeting

  111. Alex bangs the gavel

  112. Alex

    here is our agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2021-11-25

  113. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  114. Alex

    as you can see 35 members voted via proxy. So we already have a quorum

  115. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  116. Alex

    Board and Council election, you can see the application page here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2021

  117. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting

  118. Alex

    Seve, when you give me your jid I will check the whitelist and make sure you can vote

  119. Alex

    Seve, you still want to vote?

  120. Alex

    Seve, can you try to vote?

  121. Alex

    arc: you wanted to vote in the meeting as well

  122. Seve

    Alex: perfect! Thank you!

  123. dwd

    I thought I'd say something just so Alex knows someone is watching. :-)

  124. Kev

    something

  125. Alex

    Seve: have your vote recorded

  126. Alex

    looks like Arc is not here right now

  127. Seve

    Alex: yes šŸ™‚

  128. Alex

    lets wait 2 more minutes, then I start working on the results

  129. Link Mauve

    Alex, arc already mentioned publicly the results he wanted to give.

  130. Link Mauve

    Alex, arc already mentioned publicly the votes he wanted to give.

  131. Link Mauve

    ā€œ18:32:02 arc> This election I'm just going to affirmatively vote yes to everyone.ā€

  132. arc

    Yup.

  133. arc

    Thanks Link

  134. Alex

    yes, but I need them in the meeting, Arc can you post it again?

  135. Zash

    Election secrecy is SACRED!

  136. Alex

    or I add your Jif to the whitelist and you can vote quickly

  137. arc

    Sure. I vote yes to everyone on the ballot.

  138. Alex

    šŸ‘

  139. Alex

    okay, then we have 37 voters, pretty good this time

  140. Alex

    will shutdown memberbot then and start working on the results

  141. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  142. Alex

    when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2021-11-25#Announcement_of_Voting_Results You can see the results

  143. Alex

    all candiates are accepted

  144. Link Mauve

    Congrats everyone!

  145. Zash

    Congratulations!

  146. Alex

    congrats to everyone, and thanks for applying and volunteering to those roles

  147. Link Mauve

    And thanks for running. :)

  148. Alex

    5) Any other Business?

  149. dwd

    Many thanks for doing this once again, Alex.

  150. Alex

    looks like there is no other business

  151. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  152. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  153. jcbrand

    Lots of warm and fuzzies in this room right now. Thanks everyone for your time and energy

  154. dwd

    Seconded!

  155. Alex bangs the gavel

  156. Alex

    thanks everyone

  157. Kev

    Thanks Alex.

  158. guus.der.kinderen

    Thanks Alex!

  159. emus

    Many thanks Alex! I think the election participation should be listed for recent years

  160. Link Mauve

    This election brings to the spotlight something Iā€™d really like to change in the decision process, but Iā€™m clueless how: a kind of justification of the votes. We overwhelmingly vote ā€œyesā€ in most elections, and this silences any ā€œnoā€ that gets thrown in, yet I have a hunch that those ā€œnoā€ carry a meaning that is forgotten in the process.

  161. Link Mauve

    I have no idea which form it could take, perhaps a discussion venue for members to encourage others to vote like them, or at least try to.

  162. Link Mauve

    Because more than 20% of us have been dissatisfied with some candidates, I feel like there is a reason which other members might not see just from the application pages or from daily interactions with the applicants.

  163. Link Mauve

    Do we have any data from similar organisations which tried to tackle this issue?

  164. emus

    Link Mauve, where did you see the No-votes?

  165. Link Mauve

    emus, there were 37Ā members who voted, and candidates got 29 to 36Ā votes, you can subtract one number to the other to get how many people didnā€™t want to see each candidate elected.

  166. emus

    ah yes

  167. emus

    Ok, so what you have in mind to reject election if "no-vote" reaches a specific percentage?

  168. Link Mauve

    No, Iā€™d like to have some way(s) for members to influence others, not as a direct ā€œdo/donā€™t vote for that personā€ obviously, but something different than what we do today.

  169. Zash

    Ranked voting?

  170. Link Mauve

    Changing the percentage of votes to accept someone wouldnā€™t solve anything, weā€™d just have fewer people elected in the end.

  171. Link Mauve

    I still think each vote should be equal, whether you vote ā€œyesā€ or ā€œnoā€.

  172. Link Mauve

    Same reason I once wanted to know why people voted against me once I got elected for council a few years ago I think, so that I could improve on it.

  173. larma

    If you want to (anonymously) lobby for or against a candidate, you can already do so by writing mails to lists or messages in chat. So any attempt to influence others are already possible. However, I do like the idea to give anonymous feedback about candidates. We could add a feature to Memberbot to add a comment after the vote for each candidate. Memberbot collects those comments for each candidate and returns them to Alex independent of the vote results. Alex either forwards them to the candidate or just publishes them as part of the meeting minutes.

  174. larma

    That would of course require to change the voting model for board/council, as right now you don't vote for each person with 'yes' or 'no', but you just pick those you want to vote yes for. I think this is the reason why we see less votes in favor in board/council voting than in membership votes: abstain and 'no' are very similar in board/council votes, in membership votes you have to decide between 'yes' and 'no', probably causing people that would like to abstain to end up with a 'yes' - at least that's what I tend to do

  175. Zash

    Negative parlamentarism?

  176. Ge0rG

    Like in council, require a comment on a -1 vote?

  177. dwd

    This just sounds like a way to further demoralise newly elected Council/Board people, to be honest.