XSF Discussion - 2021-12-08


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  881. Menel

    Kev: 😉👌

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  885. jonas’

    I'd say "that text has been there for a long time, I saw it two years back already in a very similar discussion", but I have +w on both website and xeps, so I'm a prime suspect I'm afraid.

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  902. mdosch

    You're the head of the ministry of truth. 😲

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  2047. ralphm

    Interestingly, Board can also fill vacancies on their own, for the remainder of their term.

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  2053. Zash

    Hm, instead of electing replacements as part of the normal election?

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  2056. Menel

    They can deside if they want to fill itz, but there is not specified how to. Another voting nessesary? Or can they just appoint it?

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  2170. emus

    Well, I hope in sch case we find a good solution as XSF where everyone is happy

  2171. emus

    Well, I hope in this case we find a good solution as XSF where everyone is happy

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  2189. flow

    I wonder if some of the proposed changes of xep60 in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126/files shouldn't actually be clarifications or changes to xep4

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  2191. flow

    and, as larma already pointed out, the MUST in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126/files#diff-0ede34e71ae8ea7199b84fe09913b235f648e79c1549a055b3ddd90fee3211f8R3734 seems unnecessarily restrictive. A 'MAY' seems to be sufficient. The question remains if "the server accepting partial submit type forms" needs to be discoverable before this optimization can be employed

  2192. larma

    as fields are not tagged with <required/> submitting clients may omit them according to xep 4

  2193. larma

    but of course servers can still error if that happens...

  2194. flow

    but that would be non-compliant behavior no?

  2195. flow

    but that would be non-compliant behavior, no?

  2196. larma

    which one?

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  2198. moparisthebest

    Not knowing what's going to happen kind of makes submitting a partial form useless

  2199. flow

    so if a server bails on processing submit type forms where some non-required fields are omitted

  2200. flow

    if a server bails on processing submit type forms where some non-required fields are omitted

  2201. flow

    moparisthebest, as larma pointed out, xep4 already states that "the submission MAY omit fields not marked with <required/> by the form-processing entity"

  2202. flow

    so submitting a partial form (where partial form is a form where some non-required fields are omitted) is well defined

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  2204. moparisthebest

    Right, but what does the server do with the omitted ones? Overwrite the current values with defaults or not touch them?

  2205. moparisthebest

    Those are very different and if it's not defined, that's bad, and you really can't use it

  2206. flow

    moparisthebest, fair point, I hope "not touching them"

  2207. flow

    as this seems the (only?) sensible thing to do

  2208. larma

    flow, it would definitely not be what I expect, but still compliant in terms of xep 0060 which allows to fail for whatever reason

  2209. moparisthebest

    This makes not touching them a MUST, which seems the right thing to do, but it is adding a MUST that didn't exist before

  2210. flow

    larma, I am sorry, I can't follow, what is "it"?

  2211. larma

    it was bail out

  2212. flow

    larma, could you point me to the relevant part of xep60 where it allows to fail for whatever reason

  2213. larma

    8.2.5.2

  2214. flow

    thanks

  2215. larma

    the value in <value> of forms of type "form" is meant to be the default, so it makes sense that not submitting it means to take the default value

  2216. larma

    so what the new rule suggests definitely is what makes most sense

  2217. larma

    but only if all form fields are independent (like they are currently, but might not be in a future extension)

  2218. flow

    err, I missread the proposed sentence

  2219. flow

    and since xep4 does not specify something equivalent, it appears to really belong in xep60

  2220. flow

    it just feels too generic to be added to xep60, assmuming that we have other places where we do configuration via xep4

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  2224. flow

    moparisthebest, I am usually on the cautious site, but this appears to be change where we could probably be not very pedantic if we find no implementation that would break

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  2227. moparisthebest

    Yep I agree, was just going to start some list discussion to investigate what current implementations do

  2228. flow

    but I also think that we settled for a SHOULD in such cases

  2229. flow

    so that existing implementations don't become suddenly non-compliant

  2230. Zash

    What's that, you stepped immediately into another XEP-0004 yak ~hole~ abyss?

  2231. flow

    Zash, a little bit, but it's a small abysss

  2232. flow

    Zash, a little bit, but it's a small abyss

  2233. Zash

    Just the standard barrel of snakes?

  2234. flow

    compared to other ones

  2235. flow

    Zash, what does prosody do if you send a partial submit form for pubsub node configuration?

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  2238. flow

    leave the undefined fields unchanged or does it reset those to their defaults?

  2239. moparisthebest

    A SHOULD really makes it useless though, "this might destroy your data if you don't send the whole thing" is a fairly bad protocol

  2240. flow

    moparisthebest, the typical response to this concern (that I also had in the past) is that

  2241. flow

    a SHOULD already provides a pretty strong gurantee

  2242. flow

    a SHOULD already provides a pretty strong guarantee

  2243. flow

    I find that still not intutive

  2244. flow

    but I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not do it and still claim to be compliant but maybe not interoperable with some others any more

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  2246. flow

    but I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become interoperable with some others any more

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  2248. flow

    but I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become non-interoperable with some other impementations

  2249. flow

    but I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become non-interoperable with some other implementations

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  2251. Zash

    flow, I can double check, I'm currently extracting all MUC error conditions into a registry and getting distracted by refactoring error stanza construction

  2252. flow

    *just typical wednesday evening stuff* :)

  2253. Zash

    It uses the existing configuration for any field that is not present in the submitted form.

  2254. Zash

    (form layout specification, <form/>, {current values}) → { new configuration }

  2255. moparisthebest

    ok, so prosody is compliant if that's a MUST, so far so good

  2256. Zash

    MUC behaves the same

  2257. flow

    moparisthebest, it would also be compliant if it's a SHOULD, no?

  2258. flow

    ahh right, MUC is also a place where we use forms for configuration

  2259. moparisthebest

    yes

  2260. flow

    that makes we wonder that, instead of adding such a sentence to xep45, xep60, and so on, we probably want to add such a sentence to xep4

  2261. jonas’

    mhm, let's change a Final standard

  2262. Zash

    I think in general this depends on how xep4 is used by the "outer" XEP. Not all uses have distinct "create" vs "edit" phases.

  2263. Zash

    jonas’, again?

  2264. jonas’

    and again and again and again

  2265. Zash

    Tho when there is create and configure, allowing a partial form in configure makes sense to me.

  2266. Zash

    But xep4 itself doesn't have this concept iirc?

  2267. Zash

    It's just .. here's a form, here's submitting the form, glhf.

  2268. Zash

    Is the very concept of a Final standard even a good idea in a constantly changing world? Even RFCs are updated, tho usually by replacing with a new number.

  2269. lorddavidiii has joined

  2270. flow ignores the fact that we have such things as a final standard

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  2272. flow

    In any case, I was thinking about adding something like "If the form is used to configure an entity, then submitting a partial form only changes the configuration fields contained in the 'submit'-type form and leaves the other configuration parameters of the entity unchanged"

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  2275. flow

    to xep4

  2276. Zash

    Not that it is truly set in stone, just slow to update.

  2277. Menel

    > The Code is more like "guidelines" rather than actual rules

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