XSF Discussion - 2021-12-08


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  881. Menel Kev: 😉👌
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  885. jonas’ I'd say "that text has been there for a long time, I saw it two years back already in a very similar discussion", but I have +w on both website and xeps, so I'm a prime suspect I'm afraid.
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  902. mdosch You're the head of the ministry of truth. 😲
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  2047. ralphm Interestingly, Board can also fill vacancies on their own, for the remainder of their term.
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  2053. Zash Hm, instead of electing replacements as part of the normal election?
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  2056. Menel They can deside if they want to fill itz, but there is not specified how to. Another voting nessesary? Or can they just appoint it?
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  2170. emus Well, I hope in sch case we find a good solution as XSF where everyone is happy
  2171. emus Well, I hope in this case we find a good solution as XSF where everyone is happy
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  2189. flow I wonder if some of the proposed changes of xep60 in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126/files shouldn't actually be clarifications or changes to xep4
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  2191. flow and, as larma already pointed out, the MUST in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126/files#diff-0ede34e71ae8ea7199b84fe09913b235f648e79c1549a055b3ddd90fee3211f8R3734 seems unnecessarily restrictive. A 'MAY' seems to be sufficient. The question remains if "the server accepting partial submit type forms" needs to be discoverable before this optimization can be employed
  2192. larma as fields are not tagged with <required/> submitting clients may omit them according to xep 4
  2193. larma but of course servers can still error if that happens...
  2194. flow but that would be non-compliant behavior no?
  2195. flow but that would be non-compliant behavior, no?
  2196. larma which one?
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  2198. moparisthebest Not knowing what's going to happen kind of makes submitting a partial form useless
  2199. flow so if a server bails on processing submit type forms where some non-required fields are omitted
  2200. flow if a server bails on processing submit type forms where some non-required fields are omitted
  2201. flow moparisthebest, as larma pointed out, xep4 already states that "the submission MAY omit fields not marked with <required/> by the form-processing entity"
  2202. flow so submitting a partial form (where partial form is a form where some non-required fields are omitted) is well defined
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  2204. moparisthebest Right, but what does the server do with the omitted ones? Overwrite the current values with defaults or not touch them?
  2205. moparisthebest Those are very different and if it's not defined, that's bad, and you really can't use it
  2206. flow moparisthebest, fair point, I hope "not touching them"
  2207. flow as this seems the (only?) sensible thing to do
  2208. larma flow, it would definitely not be what I expect, but still compliant in terms of xep 0060 which allows to fail for whatever reason
  2209. moparisthebest This makes not touching them a MUST, which seems the right thing to do, but it is adding a MUST that didn't exist before
  2210. flow larma, I am sorry, I can't follow, what is "it"?
  2211. larma it was bail out
  2212. flow larma, could you point me to the relevant part of xep60 where it allows to fail for whatever reason
  2213. larma 8.2.5.2
  2214. flow thanks
  2215. larma the value in <value> of forms of type "form" is meant to be the default, so it makes sense that not submitting it means to take the default value
  2216. larma so what the new rule suggests definitely is what makes most sense
  2217. larma but only if all form fields are independent (like they are currently, but might not be in a future extension)
  2218. flow err, I missread the proposed sentence
  2219. flow and since xep4 does not specify something equivalent, it appears to really belong in xep60
  2220. flow it just feels too generic to be added to xep60, assmuming that we have other places where we do configuration via xep4
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  2224. flow moparisthebest, I am usually on the cautious site, but this appears to be change where we could probably be not very pedantic if we find no implementation that would break
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  2227. moparisthebest Yep I agree, was just going to start some list discussion to investigate what current implementations do
  2228. flow but I also think that we settled for a SHOULD in such cases
  2229. flow so that existing implementations don't become suddenly non-compliant
  2230. Zash What's that, you stepped immediately into another XEP-0004 yak ~hole~ abyss?
  2231. flow Zash, a little bit, but it's a small abysss
  2232. flow Zash, a little bit, but it's a small abyss
  2233. Zash Just the standard barrel of snakes?
  2234. flow compared to other ones
  2235. flow Zash, what does prosody do if you send a partial submit form for pubsub node configuration?
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  2238. flow leave the undefined fields unchanged or does it reset those to their defaults?
  2239. moparisthebest A SHOULD really makes it useless though, "this might destroy your data if you don't send the whole thing" is a fairly bad protocol
  2240. flow moparisthebest, the typical response to this concern (that I also had in the past) is that
  2241. flow a SHOULD already provides a pretty strong gurantee
  2242. flow a SHOULD already provides a pretty strong guarantee
  2243. flow I find that still not intutive
  2244. flow but I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not do it and still claim to be compliant but maybe not interoperable with some others any more
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  2246. flow but I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become interoperable with some others any more
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  2248. flow but I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become non-interoperable with some other impementations
  2249. flow but I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become non-interoperable with some other implementations
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  2251. Zash flow, I can double check, I'm currently extracting all MUC error conditions into a registry and getting distracted by refactoring error stanza construction
  2252. flow *just typical wednesday evening stuff* :)
  2253. Zash It uses the existing configuration for any field that is not present in the submitted form.
  2254. Zash (form layout specification, <form/>, {current values}) → { new configuration }
  2255. moparisthebest ok, so prosody is compliant if that's a MUST, so far so good
  2256. Zash MUC behaves the same
  2257. flow moparisthebest, it would also be compliant if it's a SHOULD, no?
  2258. flow ahh right, MUC is also a place where we use forms for configuration
  2259. moparisthebest yes
  2260. flow that makes we wonder that, instead of adding such a sentence to xep45, xep60, and so on, we probably want to add such a sentence to xep4
  2261. jonas’ mhm, let's change a Final standard
  2262. Zash I think in general this depends on how xep4 is used by the "outer" XEP. Not all uses have distinct "create" vs "edit" phases.
  2263. Zash jonas’, again?
  2264. jonas’ and again and again and again
  2265. Zash Tho when there is create and configure, allowing a partial form in configure makes sense to me.
  2266. Zash But xep4 itself doesn't have this concept iirc?
  2267. Zash It's just .. here's a form, here's submitting the form, glhf.
  2268. Zash Is the very concept of a Final standard even a good idea in a constantly changing world? Even RFCs are updated, tho usually by replacing with a new number.
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  2270. flow ignores the fact that we have such things as a final standard
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  2272. flow In any case, I was thinking about adding something like "If the form is used to configure an entity, then submitting a partial form only changes the configuration fields contained in the 'submit'-type form and leaves the other configuration parameters of the entity unchanged"
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  2275. flow to xep4
  2276. Zash Not that it is truly set in stone, just slow to update.
  2277. Menel > The Code is more like "guidelines" rather than actual rules
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