jonas’I'd say "that text has been there for a long time, I saw it two years back already in a very similar discussion", but I have +w on both website and xeps, so I'm a prime suspect I'm afraid.
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mdoschYou're the head of the ministry of truth. 😲
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ralphmInterestingly, Board can also fill vacancies on their own, for the remainder of their term.
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ZashHm, instead of electing replacements as part of the normal election?
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MenelThey can deside if they want to fill itz, but there is not specified how to.
Another voting nessesary? Or can they just appoint it?
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emusWell, I hope in sch case we find a good solution as XSF where everyone is happy✎
emusWell, I hope in this case we find a good solution as XSF where everyone is happy ✏
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flowI wonder if some of the proposed changes of xep60 in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126/files shouldn't actually be clarifications or changes to xep4
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flowand, as larma already pointed out, the MUST in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126/files#diff-0ede34e71ae8ea7199b84fe09913b235f648e79c1549a055b3ddd90fee3211f8R3734 seems unnecessarily restrictive. A 'MAY' seems to be sufficient. The question remains if "the server accepting partial submit type forms" needs to be discoverable before this optimization can be employed
larmaas fields are not tagged with <required/> submitting clients may omit them according to xep 4
larmabut of course servers can still error if that happens...
flowbut that would be non-compliant behavior, no? ✏
larmawhich one?
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moparisthebestNot knowing what's going to happen kind of makes submitting a partial form useless
flowso if a server bails on processing submit type forms where some non-required fields are omitted✎
flowif a server bails on processing submit type forms where some non-required fields are omitted ✏
flowmoparisthebest, as larma pointed out, xep4 already states that "the submission MAY omit fields not marked with <required/> by the form-processing entity"
flowso submitting a partial form (where partial form is a form where some non-required fields are omitted) is well defined
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moparisthebestRight, but what does the server do with the omitted ones? Overwrite the current values with defaults or not touch them?
moparisthebestThose are very different and if it's not defined, that's bad, and you really can't use it
flowmoparisthebest, fair point, I hope "not touching them"
flowas this seems the (only?) sensible thing to do
larmaflow, it would definitely not be what I expect, but still compliant in terms of xep 0060 which allows to fail for whatever reason
moparisthebestThis makes not touching them a MUST, which seems the right thing to do, but it is adding a MUST that didn't exist before
flowlarma, I am sorry, I can't follow, what is "it"?
larmait was bail out
flowlarma, could you point me to the relevant part of xep60 where it allows to fail for whatever reason
larma8.2.5.2
flowthanks
larmathe value in <value> of forms of type "form" is meant to be the default, so it makes sense that not submitting it means to take the default value
larmaso what the new rule suggests definitely is what makes most sense
larmabut only if all form fields are independent (like they are currently, but might not be in a future extension)
flowerr, I missread the proposed sentence
flowand since xep4 does not specify something equivalent, it appears to really belong in xep60
flowit just feels too generic to be added to xep60, assmuming that we have other places where we do configuration via xep4
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flowmoparisthebest, I am usually on the cautious site, but this appears to be change where we could probably be not very pedantic if we find no implementation that would break
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moparisthebestYep I agree, was just going to start some list discussion to investigate what current implementations do
flowbut I also think that we settled for a SHOULD in such cases
flowso that existing implementations don't become suddenly non-compliant
ZashWhat's that, you stepped immediately into another XEP-0004 yak ~hole~ abyss?
flowZash, what does prosody do if you send a partial submit form for pubsub node configuration?
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flowleave the undefined fields unchanged or does it reset those to their defaults?
moparisthebestA SHOULD really makes it useless though, "this might destroy your data if you don't send the whole thing" is a fairly bad protocol
flowmoparisthebest, the typical response to this concern (that I also had in the past) is that
flowa SHOULD already provides a pretty strong gurantee✎
flowa SHOULD already provides a pretty strong guarantee ✏
flowI find that still not intutive
flowbut I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not do it and still claim to be compliant but maybe not interoperable with some others any more✎
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flowbut I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become interoperable with some others any more ✏
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flowbut I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become non-interoperable with some other impementations ✏
flowbut I see a SHOULD now like a MUST, just that implementations may not follow it and still claim to be compliant, but, in turn, maybe become non-interoperable with some other implementations ✏
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Zashflow, I can double check, I'm currently extracting all MUC error conditions into a registry and getting distracted by refactoring error stanza construction
flow*just typical wednesday evening stuff* :)
ZashIt uses the existing configuration for any field that is not present in the submitted form.
moparisthebestok, so prosody is compliant if that's a MUST, so far so good
ZashMUC behaves the same
flowmoparisthebest, it would also be compliant if it's a SHOULD, no?
flowahh right, MUC is also a place where we use forms for configuration
moparisthebestyes
flowthat makes we wonder that, instead of adding such a sentence to xep45, xep60, and so on, we probably want to add such a sentence to xep4
jonas’mhm, let's change a Final standard
ZashI think in general this depends on how xep4 is used by the "outer" XEP. Not all uses have distinct "create" vs "edit" phases.
Zashjonas’, again?
jonas’and again and again and again
ZashTho when there is create and configure, allowing a partial form in configure makes sense to me.
ZashBut xep4 itself doesn't have this concept iirc?
ZashIt's just .. here's a form, here's submitting the form, glhf.
ZashIs the very concept of a Final standard even a good idea in a constantly changing world? Even RFCs are updated, tho usually by replacing with a new number.
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flowignores the fact that we have such things as a final standard
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flowIn any case, I was thinking about adding something like "If the form is used to configure an entity, then submitting a partial form only changes the configuration fields contained in the 'submit'-type form and leaves the other configuration parameters of the entity unchanged"
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flowto xep4
ZashNot that it is truly set in stone, just slow to update.
Menel> The Code is more like "guidelines" rather than actual rules