XSF Discussion - 2021-12-16


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  409. phryk

    I'm currently wondering about moderation on XMPP services. I just read XEP-0425 and that seems to only offer message retraction – but that doesn't seem nearly enough for proper moderation…

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  411. Zash

    What are you missing?

  412. phryk

    in particular, I'm still looking for these features: * bans * from MUCs or the entire service * temporarily as well as permanently * blocking known bad servers from federation * reporting messages in MUCs and enabling moderators to easily sight them

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  415. phryk

    the last one is a bit of a doozy as i want most MUCs to be OMEMOd^^

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  418. edhelas

    what is the MUC for the XMPP Communication ?

  419. phryk

    edhelas, I'm not sure I follow? Are you new? A MUC is Multi-User-Chat – i.e. what we're in right now.

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  422. Kev

    Bans from MUCs are there. M-Link manages Bans from the service by having a 'template room' and using normal protocol on it. Temporary bans can be achieved kludgily by just unbanning after banning. Blocking bad servers doesn't need protocol I think, that's local server config. Message reporting we have a protocol for, although I forget the number - what we don't have is the other half (MUC Admins being told about it).

  423. edhelas

    I am talking about the MUC we're usingo to prepare the newsletter and other communications, I lost the bookmark

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  425. jcbrand

    xmpp:commteam@muc.xmpp.org?join

  426. edhelas

    thanks !

  427. jcbrand

    👍

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  429. wurstsalat

    For reporting we have https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html and for notifying admins there is this for prosody for example: mod_watch_spam_reports

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  431. phryk

    Kev, I'm extremely unsure what you're talking about with the template room and how that helps with bans from services.^^

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  433. phryk

    wurstsalat, I think there's some hazy language there. Is there a difference between admins and moderators (how are those even set?) and what mechanism are the "admins" contacted over? Do they just get a XMPP message from the system?

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  436. wurstsalat

    phryk, server admin gets the report when using the module I mentioned (but that could easily be extended to something else). yes, sure there is a difference between admin and moderator. they can be set via configuration https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#affil

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  440. Kev

    phryx - Admin vs Moderator isn't very hazy, XEP-0045 is pretty clear on the distinctions, I think.

  441. Kev

    And the template room is a room where if you set an affiliation in it, it is used for the whole service.

  442. phryk

    Okay, then the current version of mod_watch_spam_reports isn't a good fit for my use-case as I want moderators to get the reports for the mucs they have moderation privileges for. So I might have to extend that one…

  443. phryk

    Kev, And regarding the template room that means for a service-wide ban you set the outcast affiliation for the user in the template room and then they're marked as outcast in all rooms?

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  446. Kev

    That's how M-Link does it, yes.

  447. phryk

    So the template room is an explicit implementation detail of M-Link and not specified anywhere?

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  456. Kev

    Correct.

  457. phryk

    Okay, that clears things up – thanks. :)

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  484. goffi

    It seems that "Draft" is still used in status: I see it on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html (not on the right "document lifecycle" but in the header).

  485. goffi

    If I find the time today I'll propose a PR to fix that.

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  487. edhelas

    I'm wondering if there was some work or though done to have Discord/Slack... like "servers" in XMPP. I mean to group up and discover MUCs.

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  492. Zash

    There was a group that discussed that, not sure if it stalled tho.

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  501. goffi

    I haven't followed MIX evolution, but it's not one of the feature of MIX?

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  504. Zash

    Discord "servers"? Not that I'm aware.

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  506. goffi

    I mean several rooms grouped, I kind of remember that we can link pubsub nodes to a MIX, can't we link also other rooms?

  507. goffi

    I need to re-read the specs.

  508. edhelas

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0248.html + https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html ?

  509. Zash

    MIX is pubsub, so you could probably just invent a new node and put a list there

  510. Kev

    The neatest solution is, I think, to make a Discord server ~= a MUC/MIX service.

  511. MattJ

    You could just as easily list MUC JIDs there ;)

  512. edhelas

    Kev I was actually thinking of that, but creating a new MUC service is kinda not that accessible

  513. Zash

    Dynamically creating MUC/MIX subdomains was a thing considered, but then you have to mess with DNS

  514. edhelas

    but indeed, you can then have proper separation, with roles, administration and all the other things

  515. Kev

    Zash: Wildcard DNS?

  516. Zash

    Kev, and wildcard certs?

  517. edhelas

    maybe it's time to create services resources ? muc.xmpp.org/xmpp-world-discord-like-server

  518. Kev

    Ah yes, the virtual hosting case again.

  519. Zash

    We have 'nodes' too

  520. edhelas

    should be re-compatible as well

  521. Zash

    so xmpp:muc.xmpp.org?node=xsf could list some rooms and xmpp:muc.xmpp.org?node=thegroup could list other rooms

  522. Kev

    To my mind, though, the best thing would be to work out how we get cheap MUC/MIX service setup, rather than building another layer that emulates it.

  523. Kev

    Because you want membership built on top of it, admin, configuration ...

  524. Zash

    Even needing one subdomain is a problem for some...

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  526. edhelas

    Kev true

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  528. edhelas

    I don't think that the admins/users will really care if the "server" is actually a subdomain, a node or something else

  529. edhelas

    having a simple form to create it and then assign an admin JID to it should be enough

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  546. phryk

    I would definitely say that the current DNS setup needed for a well-configured XMPP service is already complex enough. :P

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  549. yushyin

    edhelas, fyi xmpp:spaces@joinjabber.org?join (but the discussion has become a bit dormant)

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  565. edhelas

    can't join, looks like I still have a LE issue :(

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  653. mjk

    edhelas: the history is gone anyway, but description links to https://md.roflcopter.fr/xmpp-spaces

  654. edhelas

    mjk wow thanks

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  663. mjk

    Omg, I didn't look at the document in a while, and now there's a whole blanket of it

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  687. edhelas

    There is no XEP that explains how messages can be "pinned" ?

  688. MattJ

    The subject is basically the equivalent of a pinned message

  689. edhelas

    messageS :) that's the big deal

  690. antranigv has joined

  691. Zash

    Surely MIX can do that?

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  694. Zash

    Altho with MAM#extended it could be a list of archive IDs somewhere

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  710. Kev

    I don't think that's true, MattJ.

  711. Kev

    That's not the way pinned messages are used in any of the servers I'm on, at least.

  712. edhelas

    Sometime they are pinned afterward

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  714. MattJ

    It's what we have :)

  715. Kev

    Right, it's the best we have, it's just not equivalent.

  716. Zash

    Not exactly, but pretty close

  717. Kev

    Zash: Yes, I think archive IDs would give a 'proper' pinning mechanism.

  718. Kev

    In a mIX 'pinned mesages' node

  719. Zash

    MUC disco#info field? Could be prototyped pretty quickly...

  720. Kev

    You'd really like something that can be pushed, rather than just queried and forgotten, because you want to know when new pins happen.

  721. Kev

    And doing it as a pubsub node gives that, plus a mechanism for actually setting them.

  722. Zash

    MUC already has a 'config stuff changed, you may wanna re-disco#info' signal

  723. Kev

    I suppose that somewhat works if you then do a diff on the cached previous state, true.

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  844. ralphm bangs gavel

  845. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  846. ralphm

    All on Board!

  847. MattJ

    o/

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  855. ralphm

    Ok, that clearly didn't work :D

  856. ralphm

    declaring a non meeting. Until +1W

  857. ralphm unbangs gavel

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  874. edhelas

    ralphm try a bigger gavel next time maybe

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  880. ralphm

    edhelas: as a percussionist in a so-called Fanfare Band, I know my way around mallets and gavels, trust me :D

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  886. jcbrand

    ralphm, MattJ: I'm sorry... I lost track of time 😞

  887. ralphm

    Can happen

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  897. jcbrand

    I've sent the minutes to members@xmpp.org but didn't receive a copy myself, looks like I'm not on the mailing list>

  898. guus.der.kinderen

    > ralphm try a bigger gavel next time maybe Or refrain from introducing nautical terminology...

  899. guus.der.kinderen

    Unless you were thinking trains. In which case, ... well ... same.

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  921. jonas’

    what's wrong with trains?

  922. Titi has left

  923. jonas’

    or boats, for that matter?

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  925. edhelas

    I like trains 🚄

  926. jonas’

    *splat*

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  970. ralphm

    jcbrand: if so, your message is probably in moderation. At best. Check with Alex or somebody from iteam

  971. Alex

    JC I added you, but will check again now

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  977. jcbrand

    Thanks Alex, Maybe I have the wrong email address? Should be lists@ and not jc@

  978. Alex

    something went wrong, should be fixed now

  979. marc0s has left

  980. jcbrand

    s/have/gave

  981. marc0s has joined

  982. Alex

    added the email from here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Jan-Carel_Brand_Application_2021

  983. jcbrand

    Sorry for the hassle but could you please change it to lists@ ?

  984. jcbrand

    That's my mailing lists address

  985. Alex

    sure, doing now

  986. jcbrand

    🙏

  987. Alex

    done

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    merged

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