XSF Discussion - 2021-12-16


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  409. phryk I'm currently wondering about moderation on XMPP services. I just read XEP-0425 and that seems to only offer message retraction – but that doesn't seem nearly enough for proper moderation…
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  411. Zash What are you missing?
  412. phryk in particular, I'm still looking for these features: * bans * from MUCs or the entire service * temporarily as well as permanently * blocking known bad servers from federation * reporting messages in MUCs and enabling moderators to easily sight them
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  415. phryk the last one is a bit of a doozy as i want most MUCs to be OMEMOd^^
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  418. edhelas what is the MUC for the XMPP Communication ?
  419. phryk edhelas, I'm not sure I follow? Are you new? A MUC is Multi-User-Chat – i.e. what we're in right now.
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  422. Kev Bans from MUCs are there. M-Link manages Bans from the service by having a 'template room' and using normal protocol on it. Temporary bans can be achieved kludgily by just unbanning after banning. Blocking bad servers doesn't need protocol I think, that's local server config. Message reporting we have a protocol for, although I forget the number - what we don't have is the other half (MUC Admins being told about it).
  423. edhelas I am talking about the MUC we're usingo to prepare the newsletter and other communications, I lost the bookmark
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  425. jcbrand xmpp:commteam@muc.xmpp.org?join
  426. edhelas thanks !
  427. jcbrand 👍
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  429. wurstsalat For reporting we have https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html and for notifying admins there is this for prosody for example: mod_watch_spam_reports
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  431. phryk Kev, I'm extremely unsure what you're talking about with the template room and how that helps with bans from services.^^
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  433. phryk wurstsalat, I think there's some hazy language there. Is there a difference between admins and moderators (how are those even set?) and what mechanism are the "admins" contacted over? Do they just get a XMPP message from the system?
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  436. wurstsalat phryk, server admin gets the report when using the module I mentioned (but that could easily be extended to something else). yes, sure there is a difference between admin and moderator. they can be set via configuration https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#affil
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  440. Kev phryx - Admin vs Moderator isn't very hazy, XEP-0045 is pretty clear on the distinctions, I think.
  441. Kev And the template room is a room where if you set an affiliation in it, it is used for the whole service.
  442. phryk Okay, then the current version of mod_watch_spam_reports isn't a good fit for my use-case as I want moderators to get the reports for the mucs they have moderation privileges for. So I might have to extend that one…
  443. phryk Kev, And regarding the template room that means for a service-wide ban you set the outcast affiliation for the user in the template room and then they're marked as outcast in all rooms?
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  446. Kev That's how M-Link does it, yes.
  447. phryk So the template room is an explicit implementation detail of M-Link and not specified anywhere?
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  456. Kev Correct.
  457. phryk Okay, that clears things up – thanks. :)
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  484. goffi It seems that "Draft" is still used in status: I see it on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html (not on the right "document lifecycle" but in the header).
  485. goffi If I find the time today I'll propose a PR to fix that.
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  487. edhelas I'm wondering if there was some work or though done to have Discord/Slack... like "servers" in XMPP. I mean to group up and discover MUCs.
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  492. Zash There was a group that discussed that, not sure if it stalled tho.
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  501. goffi I haven't followed MIX evolution, but it's not one of the feature of MIX?
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  504. Zash Discord "servers"? Not that I'm aware.
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  506. goffi I mean several rooms grouped, I kind of remember that we can link pubsub nodes to a MIX, can't we link also other rooms?
  507. goffi I need to re-read the specs.
  508. edhelas https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0248.html + https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html ?
  509. Zash MIX is pubsub, so you could probably just invent a new node and put a list there
  510. Kev The neatest solution is, I think, to make a Discord server ~= a MUC/MIX service.
  511. MattJ You could just as easily list MUC JIDs there ;)
  512. edhelas Kev I was actually thinking of that, but creating a new MUC service is kinda not that accessible
  513. Zash Dynamically creating MUC/MIX subdomains was a thing considered, but then you have to mess with DNS
  514. edhelas but indeed, you can then have proper separation, with roles, administration and all the other things
  515. Kev Zash: Wildcard DNS?
  516. Zash Kev, and wildcard certs?
  517. edhelas maybe it's time to create services resources ? muc.xmpp.org/xmpp-world-discord-like-server
  518. Kev Ah yes, the virtual hosting case again.
  519. Zash We have 'nodes' too
  520. edhelas should be re-compatible as well
  521. Zash so xmpp:muc.xmpp.org?node=xsf could list some rooms and xmpp:muc.xmpp.org?node=thegroup could list other rooms
  522. Kev To my mind, though, the best thing would be to work out how we get cheap MUC/MIX service setup, rather than building another layer that emulates it.
  523. Kev Because you want membership built on top of it, admin, configuration ...
  524. Zash Even needing one subdomain is a problem for some...
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  526. edhelas Kev true
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  528. edhelas I don't think that the admins/users will really care if the "server" is actually a subdomain, a node or something else
  529. edhelas having a simple form to create it and then assign an admin JID to it should be enough
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  546. phryk I would definitely say that the current DNS setup needed for a well-configured XMPP service is already complex enough. :P
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  549. yushyin edhelas, fyi xmpp:spaces@joinjabber.org?join (but the discussion has become a bit dormant)
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  565. edhelas can't join, looks like I still have a LE issue :(
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  653. mjk edhelas: the history is gone anyway, but description links to https://md.roflcopter.fr/xmpp-spaces
  654. edhelas mjk wow thanks
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  663. mjk Omg, I didn't look at the document in a while, and now there's a whole blanket of it
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  687. edhelas There is no XEP that explains how messages can be "pinned" ?
  688. MattJ The subject is basically the equivalent of a pinned message
  689. edhelas messageS :) that's the big deal
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  691. Zash Surely MIX can do that?
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  694. Zash Altho with MAM#extended it could be a list of archive IDs somewhere
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  710. Kev I don't think that's true, MattJ.
  711. Kev That's not the way pinned messages are used in any of the servers I'm on, at least.
  712. edhelas Sometime they are pinned afterward
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  714. MattJ It's what we have :)
  715. Kev Right, it's the best we have, it's just not equivalent.
  716. Zash Not exactly, but pretty close
  717. Kev Zash: Yes, I think archive IDs would give a 'proper' pinning mechanism.
  718. Kev In a mIX 'pinned mesages' node
  719. Zash MUC disco#info field? Could be prototyped pretty quickly...
  720. Kev You'd really like something that can be pushed, rather than just queried and forgotten, because you want to know when new pins happen.
  721. Kev And doing it as a pubsub node gives that, plus a mechanism for actually setting them.
  722. Zash MUC already has a 'config stuff changed, you may wanna re-disco#info' signal
  723. Kev I suppose that somewhat works if you then do a diff on the cached previous state, true.
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  844. ralphm bangs gavel
  845. ralphm 0. Welcome
  846. ralphm All on Board!
  847. MattJ o/
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  855. ralphm Ok, that clearly didn't work :D
  856. ralphm declaring a non meeting. Until +1W
  857. ralphm unbangs gavel
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  874. edhelas ralphm try a bigger gavel next time maybe
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  880. ralphm edhelas: as a percussionist in a so-called Fanfare Band, I know my way around mallets and gavels, trust me :D
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  886. jcbrand ralphm, MattJ: I'm sorry... I lost track of time 😞
  887. ralphm Can happen
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  897. jcbrand I've sent the minutes to members@xmpp.org but didn't receive a copy myself, looks like I'm not on the mailing list>
  898. guus.der.kinderen > ralphm try a bigger gavel next time maybe Or refrain from introducing nautical terminology...
  899. guus.der.kinderen Unless you were thinking trains. In which case, ... well ... same.
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  921. jonas’ what's wrong with trains?
  922. Titi has left
  923. jonas’ or boats, for that matter?
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  925. edhelas I like trains 🚄
  926. jonas’ *splat*
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  970. ralphm jcbrand: if so, your message is probably in moderation. At best. Check with Alex or somebody from iteam
  971. Alex JC I added you, but will check again now
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  977. jcbrand Thanks Alex, Maybe I have the wrong email address? Should be lists@ and not jc@
  978. Alex something went wrong, should be fixed now
  979. marc0s has left
  980. jcbrand s/have/gave
  981. marc0s has joined
  982. Alex added the email from here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Jan-Carel_Brand_Application_2021
  983. jcbrand Sorry for the hassle but could you please change it to lists@ ?
  984. jcbrand That's my mailing lists address
  985. Alex sure, doing now
  986. jcbrand 🙏
  987. Alex done
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