XSF Discussion - 2021-12-16

I'm currently wondering about moderation on XMPP services. I just read XEP-0425 and that seems to only offer message retraction – but that doesn't seem nearly enough for proper moderation…

What are you missing?

in particular, I'm still looking for these features: * bans * from MUCs or the entire service * temporarily as well as permanently * blocking known bad servers from federation * reporting messages in MUCs and enabling moderators to easily sight them

the last one is a bit of a doozy as i want most MUCs to be OMEMOd^^

what is the MUC for the XMPP Communication ?

edhelas, I'm not sure I follow? Are you new? A MUC is Multi-User-Chat – i.e. what we're in right now.

Bans from MUCs are there. M-Link manages Bans from the service by having a 'template room' and using normal protocol on it. Temporary bans can be achieved kludgily by just unbanning after banning. Blocking bad servers doesn't need protocol I think, that's local server config. Message reporting we have a protocol for, although I forget the number - what we don't have is the other half (MUC Admins being told about it).

I am talking about the MUC we're usingo to prepare the newsletter and other communications, I lost the bookmark

xmpp:commteam@muc.xmpp.org?join

thanks !

👍

For reporting we have https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html and for notifying admins there is this for prosody for example: mod_watch_spam_reports

Kev, I'm extremely unsure what you're talking about with the template room and how that helps with bans from services.^^

wurstsalat, I think there's some hazy language there. Is there a difference between admins and moderators (how are those even set?) and what mechanism are the "admins" contacted over? Do they just get a XMPP message from the system?

phryk, server admin gets the report when using the module I mentioned (but that could easily be extended to something else). yes, sure there is a difference between admin and moderator. they can be set via configuration https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#affil

phryx - Admin vs Moderator isn't very hazy, XEP-0045 is pretty clear on the distinctions, I think.

And the template room is a room where if you set an affiliation in it, it is used for the whole service.

Okay, then the current version of mod_watch_spam_reports isn't a good fit for my use-case as I want moderators to get the reports for the mucs they have moderation privileges for. So I might have to extend that one…

Kev, And regarding the template room that means for a service-wide ban you set the outcast affiliation for the user in the template room and then they're marked as outcast in all rooms?

That's how M-Link does it, yes.

So the template room is an explicit implementation detail of M-Link and not specified anywhere?

Correct.

Okay, that clears things up – thanks. :)

It seems that "Draft" is still used in status: I see it on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html (not on the right "document lifecycle" but in the header).

If I find the time today I'll propose a PR to fix that.

I'm wondering if there was some work or though done to have Discord/Slack... like "servers" in XMPP. I mean to group up and discover MUCs.

There was a group that discussed that, not sure if it stalled tho.

I haven't followed MIX evolution, but it's not one of the feature of MIX?

Discord "servers"? Not that I'm aware.

I mean several rooms grouped, I kind of remember that we can link pubsub nodes to a MIX, can't we link also other rooms?

I need to re-read the specs.

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0248.html + https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html ?

MIX is pubsub, so you could probably just invent a new node and put a list there

The neatest solution is, I think, to make a Discord server ~= a MUC/MIX service.

You could just as easily list MUC JIDs there ;)

Kev I was actually thinking of that, but creating a new MUC service is kinda not that accessible

Dynamically creating MUC/MIX subdomains was a thing considered, but then you have to mess with DNS

but indeed, you can then have proper separation, with roles, administration and all the other things

Zash: Wildcard DNS?

Kev, and wildcard certs?

maybe it's time to create services resources ? muc.xmpp.org/xmpp-world-discord-like-server

Ah yes, the virtual hosting case again.

We have 'nodes' too

should be re-compatible as well

so xmpp:muc.xmpp.org?node=xsf could list some rooms and xmpp:muc.xmpp.org?node=thegroup could list other rooms

To my mind, though, the best thing would be to work out how we get cheap MUC/MIX service setup, rather than building another layer that emulates it.

Because you want membership built on top of it, admin, configuration ...

Even needing one subdomain is a problem for some...

Kev true

I don't think that the admins/users will really care if the "server" is actually a subdomain, a node or something else

having a simple form to create it and then assign an admin JID to it should be enough

I would definitely say that the current DNS setup needed for a well-configured XMPP service is already complex enough. :P

edhelas, fyi xmpp:spaces@joinjabber.org?join (but the discussion has become a bit dormant)

can't join, looks like I still have a LE issue :(

edhelas: the history is gone anyway, but description links to https://md.roflcopter.fr/xmpp-spaces

mjk wow thanks

Omg, I didn't look at the document in a while, and now there's a whole blanket of it

There is no XEP that explains how messages can be "pinned" ?

The subject is basically the equivalent of a pinned message

messageS :) that's the big deal

Surely MIX can do that?

Altho with MAM#extended it could be a list of archive IDs somewhere

I don't think that's true, MattJ.

That's not the way pinned messages are used in any of the servers I'm on, at least.

Sometime they are pinned afterward

It's what we have :)

Right, it's the best we have, it's just not equivalent.

Not exactly, but pretty close

Zash: Yes, I think archive IDs would give a 'proper' pinning mechanism.

In a mIX 'pinned mesages' node

MUC disco#info field? Could be prototyped pretty quickly...

You'd really like something that can be pushed, rather than just queried and forgotten, because you want to know when new pins happen.

And doing it as a pubsub node gives that, plus a mechanism for actually setting them.

MUC already has a 'config stuff changed, you may wanna re-disco#info' signal

I suppose that somewhat works if you then do a diff on the cached previous state, true.

0. Welcome

All on Board!

o/

Ok, that clearly didn't work :D

declaring a non meeting. Until +1W

ralphm try a bigger gavel next time maybe

edhelas: as a percussionist in a so-called Fanfare Band, I know my way around mallets and gavels, trust me :D

ralphm, MattJ: I'm sorry... I lost track of time 😞

Can happen

I've sent the minutes to members@xmpp.org but didn't receive a copy myself, looks like I'm not on the mailing list>

> ralphm try a bigger gavel next time maybe Or refrain from introducing nautical terminology...

Unless you were thinking trains. In which case, ... well ... same.

what's wrong with trains?

or boats, for that matter?

I like trains 🚄

*splat*

jcbrand: if so, your message is probably in moderation. At best. Check with Alex or somebody from iteam

JC I added you, but will check again now

Thanks Alex, Maybe I have the wrong email address? Should be lists@ and not jc@

something went wrong, should be fixed now

s/have/gave

added the email from here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Jan-Carel_Brand_Application_2021

Sorry for the hassle but could you please change it to lists@ ?

That's my mailing lists address

sure, doing now

🙏

done

merged