XSF Discussion - 2022-01-08


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  293. emus In general, everyone please remind the Newsletter is already open foe your contributions from whole December and January! Newsletter draft on Github: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/milestone/3 (Navigate to the latest issue, then to 'Files changes', then 'Edit File') Or drop your news text to you online pad: https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-newsletter-365days
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  809. lovetox the more i look at the standard process of XMPP the more i feel it runs into the wrong direction
  810. lovetox The idea that the standard process is kind of open, with discussions and vote is honorable
  811. lovetox but in my opinion it can only work if the people that vote on it, are really good kind of architects that have the whole picture in mind
  812. lovetox probably they should contribute most of the standards themself or at least work on them
  813. lovetox i bet at some point this was the case, now it feels like, everybody can send in XEPs, almost everything gets published as "Experimental" or whatever the current state is
  814. flow I think we don't have that ideal situation because we do not have people who are willing to work on it
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  816. lovetox yes, i think there is missing a person or more that have this greater goal in mind and are ready to invest considerable energy into it
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  818. lovetox without that, we can make as much rules and governance xeps as we want
  819. lovetox this will not help
  820. flow Hence I am thinking that we should create a space where everyone can publish ProtoXEPs under a stable URL, and only bring those XEPs to the council that we deem worthy (whatever that means)
  821. flow Hence I am thinking that we should consider creating a space where everyone can publish ProtoXEPs under a stable URL, and only bring those XEPs to the council that we deem worthy (whatever that means)
  822. Zash Someone with a Vision?
  823. lovetox yes this can help, also what would proably help is something like a workgroup, a few capable people, that design an extension with some use cases in mind
  824. flow I think such workgroups form itself when there are such capable people interested in a particular topic
  825. Link Mauve flow, do you mean, https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/ ?
  826. flow Link Mauve, maybe, but terminlogy matters and the process to
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  837. flow and how you present stuff
  838. flow but ultimately, it would maybe already help to be able to put stuff in inbox/ without that being later presented to council
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  841. flow and given that recently a partly broken XEP was accepted in experimental, I wonder if our review processes are robust enough
  842. Link Mauve You can ask editor not to run your ProtoXEP through the council while you send it to them.
  843. Zash Tricky when Authors have near infinite power to do whatever they want in Experimental, and Council is mostly a filter for advancement. Council can say "do this or we Reject!" or take over authorship. But Council doesn't magically have power to shape things unless council members are pretty active in discussions etc. Or something.
  844. flow sure, I can ask for anything, but it's not part of the official process to have this option, no?
  845. Link Mauve I think it is?
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  848. lovetox but its a hard problem to solve, probably a common problem in engineering, its ever hard at the company where you dont put everything to vote and everybody can weigh in
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  850. lovetox but its a hard problem to solve, probably a common problem in engineering, its even hard at the company where you dont put everything to vote and everybody can weigh in
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  854. flow Zash, right. I think it's a problem of proper checks and balances within the involved parties of the ecosystem (probably mostly the XSF and XMPP developers)
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  856. flow lovetox, see also "design by committee" :)
  857. Zash institute a Benevolent Designer For Life ? 🙂
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  859. flow and a rich altruist that funds that party
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  861. lovetox i feel the worst thing that can happen to xmpp, even worse than not having a protocol for a special usecase, is to have 10 different for the same thing
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  863. flow yep, although multiple competitive protocols could be good in the long term. it is, again, about finding the right balance
  864. lovetox but thats not engineering, i publish 10 things, and hope that one wins
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  871. MattJ That's why we need products, not (more) protocols ;)
  872. MattJ For large parts of XMPP, it should be driven by client developers
  873. MattJ At least requesting protocols if not writing them
  874. MattJ The multiple competing protocols happen when the specs come before implementation
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  876. Zash And when implementation comes before protocol, it's a different kind of fun
  877. MattJ Of course
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  879. MattJ "Rough consensus and running code" all the way
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  881. Zash *ahem* vcard-temp, siacs omemo
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