XSF Discussion - 2022-01-10

  1. sonny has joined

  2. sonny has left

  3. sonny has joined

  4. neshtaxmpp has left

  5. sonny has left

  6. sonny has joined

  7. restive_monk has left

  8. Nekit has joined

  9. karoshi has left

  10. floretta has joined

  11. Paganini has joined

  12. Maranda[x] has left

  13. Maranda[x] has joined

  14. mjk has left

  15. tykayn has left

  16. restive_monk has joined

  17. neshtaxmpp has joined

  18. moparisthebest has left

  19. moparisthebest has joined

  20. floretta has left

  21. eevvoor has left

  22. floretta has joined

  23. վարյա has left

  24. debacle has left

  25. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  26. վարյա has joined

  27. Alex has left

  28. John has left

  29. kurisu has joined

  30. Matthew has left

  31. Rixon 👁🗨 has left

  32. uhoreg has left

  33. homebeach has left

  34. Half-Shot has left

  35. Half-Shot has joined

  36. Matthew has joined

  37. Rixon 👁🗨 has joined

  38. uhoreg has joined

  39. homebeach has joined

  40. wgreenhouse has left

  41. wgreenhouse has joined

  42. lskdjf has left

  43. Matthew has left

  44. Rixon 👁🗨 has left

  45. uhoreg has left

  46. homebeach has left

  47. Half-Shot has left

  48. Half-Shot has joined

  49. Matthew has joined

  50. Rixon 👁🗨 has joined

  51. uhoreg has joined

  52. homebeach has joined

  53. qrpnxz has joined

  54. qrpnxz has left

  55. John has joined

  56. BASSGOD has left

  57. BASSGOD has joined

  58. adiaholic has joined

  59. adiaholic has left

  60. adiaholic has joined

  61. djorz has left

  62. millesimus has left

  63. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  64. John has left

  65. adiaholic has left

  66. adiaholic has joined

  67. wladmis has joined

  68. BASSGOD has left

  69. millesimus has joined

  70. stp has joined

  71. Steve Kille has left

  72. Steve Kille has joined

  73. BASSGOD has joined

  74. harry837374884 has left

  75. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  76. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  77. millesimus has left

  78. adiaholic has left

  79. adiaholic has joined

  80. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  81. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  82. millesimus has joined

  83. Yagiza has joined

  84. wladmis has left

  85. wladmis has joined

  86. marc0s has left

  87. marc0s has joined

  88. adiaholic has left

  89. neshtaxmpp has left

  90. neshtaxmpp has joined

  91. adiaholic has joined

  92. Calvin has joined

  93. ti_gj06 has joined

  94. wladmis has left

  95. adiaholic has left

  96. kurisu has left

  97. Calvin has left

  98. adiaholic has joined

  99. adiaholic has left

  100. wladmis has joined

  101. wladmis has left

  102. adiaholic has joined

  103. paul has left

  104. kurisu has joined

  105. kurisu has left

  106. marc0s has left

  107. marc0s has joined

  108. adiaholic has left

  109. moparisthebest has left

  110. adiaholic has joined

  111. վարյա has left

  112. վարյա has joined

  113. kurisu has joined

  114. Seve has joined

  115. adiaholic has left

  116. վարյա has left

  117. վարյա has joined

  118. adiaholic has joined

  119. sonny has left

  120. sonny has joined

  121. վարյա has left

  122. վարյա has joined

  123. sonny has left

  124. sonny has joined

  125. lorddavidiii has joined

  126. marc0s has left

  127. marc0s has joined

  128. ti_gj06 has left

  129. adiaholic has left

  130. Calvin has joined

  131. me9 has joined

  132. adiaholic has joined

  133. ti_gj06 has joined

  134. վարյա has left

  135. վարյա has joined

  136. Calvin has left

  137. վարյա has left

  138. վարյա has joined

  139. paul has joined

  140. Tobias has joined

  141. emus has joined

  142. pasdesushi has joined

  143. pasdesushi has left

  144. adiaholic has left

  145. COM8 has joined

  146. wladmis has joined

  147. floretta has left

  148. COM8 has left

  149. COM8 has joined

  150. COM8 has left

  151. adiaholic has joined

  152. վարյա has left

  153. վարյա has joined

  154. adiaholic has left

  155. վարյա has left

  156. վարյա has joined

  157. adiaholic has joined

  158. pasdesushi has joined

  159. վարյա has left

  160. վարյա has joined

  161. Neustradamus

    larma: Have you already looked here? - https://about.psyc.eu - http://www.psyced.org/

  162. վարյա has left

  163. floretta has joined

  164. me9 has left

  165. floretta has left

  166. emus has left

  167. Ingolf has left

  168. Ingolf has joined

  169. emus has joined

  170. վարյա has joined

  171. վարյա has left

  172. վարյա has joined

  173. atomicwatch has left

  174. floretta has joined

  175. chronosx88 has left

  176. chronosx88 has joined

  177. ti_gj06 has left

  178. վարյա has left

  179. վարյա has joined

  180. wladmis has left

  181. վարյա has left

  182. վարյա has joined

  183. wladmis has joined

  184. kurisu has left

  185. chronosx88 has left

  186. chronosx88 has joined

  187. msavoritias has joined

  188. tykayn has joined

  189. jgart has left

  190. wurstsalat has joined

  191. djorz has joined

  192. վարյա has left

  193. վարյա has joined

  194. moparisthebest has joined

  195. Shackleton has joined

  196. վարյա has left

  197. վարյա has joined

  198. wladmis has left

  199. karoshi has joined

  200. adiaholic has left

  201. adiaholic has joined

  202. adiaholic has left

  203. վարյա has left

  204. վարյա has joined

  205. adiaholic has joined

  206. kurisu has joined

  207. ti_gj06 has joined

  208. վարյա has left

  209. վարյա has joined

  210. adiaholic has left

  211. վարյա has left

  212. վարյա has joined

  213. վարյա has left

  214. վարյա has joined

  215. wladmis has joined

  216. adiaholic has joined

  217. kurisu has left

  218. kurisu has joined

  219. bean has joined

  220. վարյա has left

  221. վարյա has joined

  222. ti_gj06 has left

  223. adiaholic has left

  224. ti_gj06 has joined

  225. adiaholic has joined

  226. bean has left

  227. Shackleton has left

  228. Alex has joined

  229. millesimus has left

  230. վարյա has left

  231. վարյա has joined

  232. adiaholic has left

  233. eab has left

  234. eab has joined

  235. Maranda[x] has left

  236. Maranda[x] has joined

  237. kurisu has left

  238. վարյա has left

  239. վարյա has joined

  240. bean has joined

  241. John has joined

  242. bean has left

  243. bean has joined

  244. wladmis has left

  245. millesimus has joined

  246. marc0s has left

  247. marc0s has joined

  248. Titi has joined

  249. adiaholic has joined

  250. rafasaurus has left

  251. rafasaurus has joined

  252. վարյա has left

  253. վարյա has joined

  254. վարյա has left

  255. վարյա has joined

  256. marc0s has left

  257. marc0s has joined

  258. djorz has left

  259. վարյա has left

  260. bung has joined

  261. վարյա has joined

  262. kyemxden has left

  263. kyemxden has joined

  264. mjk has joined

  265. bung has left

  266. վարյա has left

  267. վարյա has joined

  268. վարյա has left

  269. վարյա has joined

  270. վարյա has left

  271. վարյա has joined

  272. bung has joined

  273. John has left

  274. edhelas


  275. yushyin

    just saw that too :)

  276. COM8 has joined

  277. COM8 has left

  278. harry837374884 has joined

  279. վարյա has left

  280. վարյա has joined

  281. Mikaela has joined

  282. վարյա has left

  283. վարյա has joined

  284. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  285. lskdjf has joined

  286. վարյա has left

  287. վարյա has joined

  288. emus has left

  289. adiaholic has left

  290. chronosx88 has left

  291. intosi has joined

  292. chronosx88 has joined

  293. bung has left

  294. վարյա has left

  295. վարյա has joined

  296. adiaholic has joined

  297. bung has joined

  298. ti_gj06 has left

  299. վարյա has left

  300. վարյա has joined

  301. mjk has left

  302. mjk has joined

  303. ti_gj06 has joined

  304. վարյա has left

  305. վարյա has joined

  306. Nekit has left

  307. djorz has joined

  308. Seve has left

  309. Seve has joined

  310. millesimus has left

  311. pjn has left

  312. mjk has left

  313. Steve Kille has left

  314. mjk has joined

  315. Steve Kille has joined

  316. Steve Kille has left

  317. Steve Kille has joined

  318. adiaholic has left

  319. millesimus has joined

  320. Neustradamus


  321. վարյա has left

  322. վարյա has joined

  323. mjk has left

  324. adiaholic has joined

  325. mjk has joined

  326. millesimus has left

  327. edhelas

    And it didn't took that long for the Matrix guy to say how bad is XMPP :p

  328. phryk

    Are polls (i.e. multiple choice votes) somehow doable with some existing XEP?

  329. վարյա has left

  330. վարյա has joined

  331. phryk

    Only thing that would spring to mind for me would be the forms extension plus custom server-side logic. But I think only gajim really supports forms…

  332. Ge0rG

    phryk: yeah, that's about it.

  333. mathieui

    There is the quick action xep or something

  334. edhelas

    basically implement Message Reactions and do polls with emojis :p

  335. mathieui

    Quick response* xep-0439

  336. jl4 has joined

  337. jl4 has left

  338. edhelas

    MattJ i'm interested by your "account access delegation" feature indeed :)

  339. jl4 has joined

  340. MattJ

    More details soon :)

  341. վարյա has left

  342. վարյա has joined

  343. edhelas

    such teasing

  344. mathieui

    (But no public client supports quick response, AFAIK, though I did an implementation in slixmpp)

  345. MattJ

    edhelas, haven't formally signed anything with NLnet yet, so it feels premature to promise things until then. But it's no secret I've been wanting to improve this (account access and device/client management) for some time :)

  346. emus has joined

  347. վարյա has left

  348. վարյա has joined

  349. yushyin

    edhelas, yes, saw the one person with the bad understanding about e2ee and key exchanges. too bad that this matrix per-user e2ee and the matrix feature to _share keys_ with other clients lead to this https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2021-40823

  350. Daniel has left

  351. jcbrand has left

  352. jl4 has left

  353. jl4 has joined

  354. adiaholic has left

  355. adiaholic has joined

  356. debacle has joined

  357. millesimus has joined

  358. BASSGOD has left

  359. stp has left

  360. marc0s has left

  361. marc0s has joined

  362. ti_gj06 has left

  363. millesimus has left

  364. adiaholic has left

  365. վարյա has left

  366. Maranda[x] has left

  367. adiaholic has joined

  368. Maranda[x] has joined

  369. dwd

    Zash, Broadly speaking, yes, any fastenish thing needs "deep" work on the MAM storage layer. Also any Inboxish thing, which is required (I think) for thin web clients to be efficient.

  370. dwd

    phryk, There's some bits of what you need for polls. But I think ideally we need not only forms, but "updatable messages" (or microapps), where a pubsub update can update the rendering of a preexisting message. So you'd present a poll (as form? with quick response? something else?) and by "magic", responses to the form would cause a pubsub event to update your client's view of the message. Perhaps?

  371. վարյա has joined

  372. phryk

    dwd, pubsub can already be used for autoupdating views of ~some data~?

  373. jl4 has left

  374. jl4 has joined

  375. harry837374884 has left

  376. harry837374884 has joined

  377. phryk

    mathieui, thanks, that looks like it'd be a solid fallback for input even if forms end up broadly adopted.

  378. millesimus has joined

  379. jl4 has left

  380. jl4 has joined

  381. Wojtek has joined

  382. pjn has joined

  383. վարյա has left

  384. վարյա has joined

  385. edhelas

    > Isn't that Jabber? Haven't heard of XMPP in a while.

  386. edhelas


  387. goffi has joined

  388. restive_monk has left

  389. bung has left

  390. Daniel has joined

  391. վարյա has left

  392. վարյա has joined

  393. jcbrand has joined

  394. yushyin


  395. jl4 has left

  396. ti_gj06 has joined

  397. djorz has left

  398. rafasaurus has left

  399. uhoreg has left

  400. homebeach has left

  401. Matthew has left

  402. Rixon 👁🗨 has left

  403. Half-Shot has left

  404. Half-Shot has joined

  405. Matthew has joined

  406. Rixon 👁🗨 has joined

  407. uhoreg has joined

  408. homebeach has joined

  409. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  410. kurisu has joined

  411. kurisu has left

  412. ti_gj06 has left

  413. rafasaurus has joined

  414. restive_monk has joined

  415. Nekit has joined

  416. kurisu has joined

  417. adiaholic has left

  418. kurisu has left

  419. kyemxden has left

  420. kyemxden has joined

  421. kurisu has joined

  422. kurisu has left

  423. kurisu has joined

  424. adiaholic has joined

  425. dwd

    phryk, No, or at least yes but nothing in the standards for it.

  426. kyemxden has left

  427. kyemxden has joined

  428. harry837374884 has left

  429. harry837374884 has joined

  430. dwd

    phryk, If we had all the budget in the world, I'd do polls as sandboxed HTML+JS with APIs for pubsub publishes and events. But we don't have *any* of that beyond pubsub itself. :-)

  431. phryk

    oh god, please no js in xmpp.

  432. kurisu

    if I had all the budget in the world I'd kill HTML+JS with fire like the cancer that it is

  433. John has joined

  434. dwd

    phryk, Oh, we're in daydream mode, right, so we can have them signed and you can trust only certain publishers or something.

  435. kurisu

    js in xmpp is more like nightmare mode

  436. dwd

    kurisu, Why? Genuine question.

  437. phryk

    dwd, still, i don't want a goddamn browser engine in my client in order to be able to participate properly ::F

  438. dwd

    phryk, It does make things pretty heavyweight, yes. If essentially any message could spawn an entire HTML+JSS sandbox environment, it'd put Chrome to shame.

  439. adiaholic has left

  440. john87 has joined

  441. phryk

    if xmpp integrates js, I'll drop it like a hot radioactive potato.^^

  442. jonas’

    holy smokes what happened here

  443. adiaholic has joined

  444. kurisu

    dwd, because it's effectively google's proprietary platform at this point. Not to mention the browser which is supposed to be just an http client + a viewer of some goddamn formatted text with forms now takes more to compile than the entire rest of my distro combined - if this isn't bloat, I don't know what is. Note how I say *the* browser because there's hardly any difference between them at this point, it's all a proprietary platform of google and its evil friends

  445. kurisu has left

  446. dwd

    kurisu, OK, but the notion of combining a display language and a scripting language with a constrained API, packaging up microapps into messaging itself is OK, or not?

  447. jonas’


  448. jonas’

    that sounds like the same misdirection the web took

  449. uhoreg has left

  450. homebeach has left

  451. Matthew has left

  452. Rixon 👁🗨 has left

  453. Half-Shot has left

  454. Half-Shot has joined

  455. Matthew has joined

  456. Rixon 👁🗨 has joined

  457. uhoreg has joined

  458. homebeach has joined

  459. dwd

    jonas’, It did make the web very useful, mind.

  460. jonas’

    also very misuseful

  461. dwd

    jonas’, And we wouldn't be running about making XMPP web clients with video calling if it hadn't taken that path.

  462. norkki has left

  463. jonas’

    instead, we'd polish the calling functionality the clients already had a decade ago

  464. wladmis has joined

  465. dwd

    jonas’, That's probably wishful thinking. WebRTC didn't exist back then, yet we still had largely non-functional and non-interoperable calling then.

  466. jonas’


  467. dwd

    jonas’, Video calling, in particular, was basically borked. We had voice, though.

  468. adiaholic has left

  469. jonas’

    dwd, so integrating some kind of scripting language is a massive barrier for application development

  470. jonas’

    you need runtimes for that language on all platforms (the mobile and web ones will be extra fun to deal with), and that needs to be sandboxed properly

  471. dwd

    jonas’, I can see that. Especially as being the community we are, we're have to pick something insanely esoteric.

  472. djorz has joined

  473. jonas’

    I think the sanest choice would be webasm.

  474. dwd

    I rest my case.

  475. jonas’

    cut away all the javascript cruft, go right with webasm asa runtime.

  476. norkki has joined

  477. adiaholic has joined

  478. jonas’

    it should provide all sandboxing and there exists lots of tools to compile to it

  479. jonas’

    it's supported by browsers

  480. norkki has left

  481. jonas’

    it should be usable on mobile one way or another

  482. jonas’

    I don't like the taste of microapps still.

  483. jonas’

    it's not how I (want to) use IM.

  484. jonas’

    but *if* one would want to do it, webasm with access to the message and possibly IQs to the sender in some circumstances would probably the sanest way to do it.

  485. dwd

    I think the simplest generic platform you could build polls on would be some kind of templating system - and maybe forms with the display stuff is sufficient? - with a kind of encapsulated pubsub driving it, tied to a single node.

  486. dwd

    Troulbe is, I don't know what else you could build with that that's of any use.

  487. Link Mauve

    Wait wait wait, what would you want to integrate JS or wasm for in my XMPP client?

  488. jonas’


  489. dwd

    Otherwise, you need scripting. And the reason I actually quite like the notion of microapps is that a lot of innovation has occured in things like Slack Apps that looks really interesting.

  490. jonas’

    Link Mauve, wasm, no JS!

  491. Link Mauve

    jonas’, that’s already much more sensible, but… why?!

  492. dwd

    Link Mauve, Obviously it'd have to be LUA.

  493. Link Mauve

    OH NO, NOT LUA. :p

  494. Link Mauve


  495. jonas’

    dwd, how much of that would work well in any way in XMPP, given that the wire format has nearly no control over the presentational layer since we dropped XHTML-IM?

  496. mjk has left

  497. kyemxden has left

  498. dwd

    Link Mauve, Oh, SQL-over-pubsub, new XEP coming.

  499. mjk has joined

  500. kyemxden has joined

  501. dwd

    jonas’, Well, yes, that's a whole other problem. We could go Slack's "blocks", mind, which is almost what we have with XEP-0141 et al.

  502. dwd

    I mean, I guess there's XEP-0336 too.

  503. kyemxden has left

  504. kyemxden has joined

  505. Link Mauve

    dwd, XEP-0043 you mean?

  506. dwd

    Link Mauve, Wow. "Retracted", because we don't have a state for "Burned with Fire".

  507. Link Mauve


  508. Link Mauve

    Wow, the DTD is fully unreadable in our dark theme.

  509. Link Mauve

    Purple on dark grey.

  510. jonas’

    did you mean: Mauve on dark grey?

  511. dwd

    Link Mauve, That's to protect your eyesight.

  512. dwd

    jonas’, I see what you did there.

  513. Link Mauve


  514. adiaholic has left

  515. dwd

    But anyway, yes, little somewhat-scriptable dynamic messages. Microapps, whatever. We could probably do them without any client-side scripting, or at least with something so restrictive it was a case of "If the user actuates this button send this". But it'd be nice to get something that'd handle, say, polls, or giphy, or whatever else people think up without having to have everything hard-coded into the clients.

  516. atomicwatch has joined

  517. Link Mauve

    There: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1147

  518. jonas’

    dwd, buttons?!

  519. adiaholic has joined

  520. Link Mauve

    dwd, isn’t giphy just a video player?

  521. jonas’

    Link Mauve, it's also a selectino tool on the sender side

  522. Link Mauve

    Like Movim’s thingy?

  523. jonas’

    possibly, I never used movim

  524. Link Mauve

    And you’d do that by… having some entity send you wasm code and execute it in your client? :x

  525. Link Mauve

    Can I opt out from this future right now?

  526. x51 has joined

  527. Link Mauve

    Movim says it’s using Tenor for the video search engine.

  528. jonas’

    ah yes

  529. Link Mauve

    https://tenor.com/ this one.

  530. Link Mauve

    So the limited wasm API would still give said external entity on the network access to arbitrary HTTP requests, video decoding, message sending, and what more?

  531. Link Mauve

    So the limited wasm API would still give said external entity on the network access to arbitrary HTTP requests, video decoding, widget drawing, message sending, and what more?

  532. jonas’

    I was proposing giving it access only to the message containing the wasm payload, plus maybe IQs to the sender address in response to user interaction.

  533. jonas’

    hence, "what is that even useful for given the really low amount of presentational layer influence the wire protocol has"

  534. Link Mauve


  535. dwd

    Link Mauve, I'd probably avoid that for preference, and tie communications back to a fixed source endpoint and - probably - asking permission to send a specific message.

  536. Link Mauve

    So that takes giphy and external polls out.

  537. jonas’

    Link Mauve, though loading a snippet of wasm to run in your message text prompt would also be interesting

  538. Link Mauve

    (If giphy is like tenor.com’s integration into Movim.)

  539. dwd

    Link Mauve, Don't think so? Means that the microapp provider has to mediate all communication to third parties, though.

  540. jonas’

    then it should just be able to render a preview message based on your input

  541. jonas’

    and by render I mean provide the message stanza

  542. jonas’

    then your client can render the preview from that

  543. jonas’

    (with the client stripping all things it doesn't know about)

  544. jonas’

    the wasm could generate multiple variants (in the tenor case, multiple matching videos) and let you pick one of them.

  545. jonas’

    then you had a wasm thing which is already quite useful to actually do things

  546. Link Mauve

    Aaaaaaah, Movim lets those videos play sound as well! >_<

  547. Link Mauve

    I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it.

  548. Link Mauve

    edhelas, ↑

  549. Link Mauve

    It even loops, with audio.

  550. Link Mauve

    And no way to stop it.

  551. Link Mauve

    Great UX you have here. ^^'

  552. Link Mauve

    jonas’, so, the wasm thing would let any external entity play sound in your client, with no way to do anything against it? :p

  553. ti_gj06 has joined

  554. dwd

    Link Mauve, Well, you can have a permissioning system to allow/deny audio, I suppose, but in any case, I'm beginning to wonder if it's even required to have a real scripting language, or if we can just handle UI events by passing messages and optionally replacing the entire microapp UI.

  555. Link Mauve

    Like the abuse of 0308 we did a while ago in poezio?

  556. dwd

    I don't know about that. But given what I can guess, maybe.

  557. Link Mauve

    Test of <marquee/>.

  558. Link Mauve

     Test of <marquee/>.                   

  559. Link Mauve

      Test of <marquee/>.                  

  560. Link Mauve

       Test of <marquee/>.                 

  561. Link Mauve

        Test of <marquee/>.                

  562. Link Mauve

         Test of <marquee/>.               

  563. Link Mauve

          Test of <marquee/>.              

  564. Link Mauve

           Test of <marquee/>.             

  565. Link Mauve

            Test of <marquee/>.            

  566. Link Mauve

             Test of <marquee/>.           

  567. Link Mauve

              Test of <marquee/>.          

  568. Link Mauve

               Test of <marquee/>.         

  569. Link Mauve

                Test of <marquee/>.        

  570. Link Mauve

                 Test of <marquee/>.       

  571. Link Mauve

                  Test of <marquee/>.      

  572. Link Mauve

                   Test of <marquee/>.     

  573. Link Mauve

                    Test of <marquee/>.    

  574. Link Mauve

                     Test of <marquee/>.   

  575. Link Mauve

                      Test of <marquee/>.  

  576. Link Mauve

                       Test of <marquee/>. 

  577. Link Mauve

                        Test of <marquee/>.

  578. Link Mauve

    .                    Test of <marquee/>

  579. Link Mauve

    >.                    Test of <marquee/

  580. Link Mauve

    />.                    Test of <marquee

  581. Link Mauve

    e/>.                    Test of <marque

  582. Link Mauve

    ee/>.                    Test of <marqu

  583. Link Mauve

    uee/>.                    Test of <marq

  584. Link Mauve

    I love it. :D

  585. Link Mauve

    quee/>.                    Test of <mar

  586. Link Mauve

    rquee/>.                    Test of <ma

  587. Link Mauve

    arquee/>.                    Test of <m

  588. Link Mauve

    marquee/>.                    Test of <

  589. dwd

    I'm not seeing those as '308...

  590. Link Mauve


  591. dwd

    I see one correction followed by a ton of subsequent messages...

  592. Link Mauve

    Oh, perhaps the plugin didn’t get updated to the new semantics of 0308.

  593. Link Mauve

    I’ll have a look someday, maybe.

  594. dwd

    In any case, congratulations, you've discovered something worse than spontanetously playing audio.

  595. restive_monk has left

  596. lskdjf

    Link Mauve wrote "I love it" in between the corrections. Perhaps the corrections afterwards are be applied to the original marque test message, however it's not the last message anymore. Thus, last message corrections aren't accepted anymore.

  597. dwd

    lskdjf, No, I got a load of non-corrections prior to that.

  598. lskdjf

    hm. For me, all corrections prior to "I love it" applied fine.

  599. jonas’


  600. intosi has left

  601. intosi has joined

  602. dwd

    Ah, interop will be easy, they said...

  603. jonas’

    I love marquee :)

  604. dwd

    jonas’, I mean, I hate it, but I love that it's (almost?) possible to do.

  605. Link Mauve

    lskdjf, oh, so you have the one client doing a check for Last message correction, while other clients implement arbitrary message correction.

  606. dwd

    jonas’, I'd just like some other facilities to do more complex things like polls etc. XEPs actually built to abuse, if you like.

  607. dwd

    I mean, the XSF Memberbot could be written as a Slack App. Obviously it'd be ironic to do so, but you could easily enough, I think, write an app that people could see, discover, and vote on, and that would provide all the links etc. And I think that's a more powerful mechanism than anything we have right now.

  608. mjk

    Link Mauve: is it *one* though? I'd hope more clients aside to Conversations do _last_ message correction

  609. wladmis has left

  610. ti_gj06 has left

  611. ti_gj06 has joined

  612. lskdjf

    mjk, Dino also accepts the last message for correction only.

  613. mjk


  614. mjk

    Anyway, this whole conversation was a pretty traumatic rollercoaster. Javascript in stanzas? Check. Chromium in Poezio? Check. Multimedia on autoplay? Check. Trusted stanza execution environment next?

  615. jonas’

    mjk, webasm in sgx in stanzas!

  616. jonas’

    and smart contracts!

  617. norkki has joined

  618. norkki has left

  619. mjk

    Webasm sounds much more benign than requiring an intel x86 cpu to poll on things

  620. jonas’


  621. jonas’

    12:12:13 jonas’> it's not how I (want to) use IM.

  622. mjk


  623. mjk

    ~Amen~ So say we all

  624. Wojtek has left

  625. Wojtek has joined

  626. Wojtek has left

  627. jonas’

    but with my council hat on, if members of the XMPP ecosystem want something like that, I feel obliged to guide them to non-terrible choices

  628. jonas’

    (like wasm over javascript)

  629. millesimus has left

  630. norkki has joined

  631. kurisu has joined

  632. Link Mauve

    No matter the hat I wear, yes to that.

  633. kurisu has left

  634. harry837374884 has left

  635. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  636. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  637. ti_gj06 has left

  638. millesimus has joined

  639. Wojtek has joined

  640. Rixon 👁🗨 has left

  641. uhoreg has left

  642. homebeach has left

  643. Matthew has left

  644. Half-Shot has left

  645. Half-Shot has joined

  646. Matthew has joined

  647. Rixon 👁🗨 has joined

  648. uhoreg has joined

  649. homebeach has joined

  650. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  651. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  652. restive_monk has joined

  653. kurisu has joined

  654. ti_gj06 has joined

  655. bung has joined

  656. harry837374884 has joined

  657. millesimus has left

  658. Calvin has joined

  659. kurisu has left

  660. kyemxden has left

  661. kyemxden has joined

  662. kyemxden has left

  663. kyemxden has joined

  664. Calvin has left

  665. mjk

    Link Mauve: btw, what is that Lua-related trauma you seem to have

  666. jonas’

    I think the trauma might've been LUA related…

  667. millesimus has joined

  668. mjk

    Ah, I suspected that

  669. kyemxden has left

  670. kyemxden has joined

  671. Zash

    I see you had a Lua Uppercase Accident

  672. jonas’

    I'm convinced it wasn't an accident

  673. me9 has joined

  674. mjk

    On a related note, there seem to be some impostor xmpp client circulating in the ecosystem, referred to as DINO. User discretion is advised

  675. stp has joined

  676. restive_monk has left

  677. adiaholic has left

  678. djorz has left

  679. John has left

  680. ti_gj06 has left

  681. kyemxden has left

  682. kyemxden has joined

  683. adiaholic has joined

  684. goffi has left

  685. adiaholic has left

  686. lorddavidiii has left

  687. norkki has left

  688. moparisthebest

    Nothing is more annoying than "signal doesn't know who sent what to whom!!!!"

  689. moparisthebest

    They have to, to deliver it

  690. moparisthebest

    The fact that they have a bunch of fancy mumbo jumbo that boils down to "we pinky promise not to look or remember" is neither here nor there

  691. restive_monk has joined

  692. Zash

    Looks good in marketing

  693. mjk has left

  694. Wojtek has left

  695. intosi has left

  696. intosi has joined

  697. mjk has joined

  698. moparisthebest

    Vs XMPP where jabber.de indeed has no idea who I'm communicating with on not-jabber.de

  699. moparisthebest

    If "privacy" people can't grasp this simple concept maybe they should just communicate over SMS

  700. wgreenhouse has left

  701. adiaholic has joined

  702. mjk

    But RCS is morw private!!11 Google promised not to look!

  703. Zash

    But your evil admin is all-knowing and spies on everything!

  704. Sam

    I'm sure some people misrepresent this as "signal doesn't know where a message is going", which is not true, but they do a lot to obscure where it's *coming from", maybe we should actually make something similar instead of pretending this has no value.

  705. Sam

    Sure, it's not as perfect as the HN crowd seems to think, but they're not wrong that it's a lot better than what we do (assuming that hiding that metadata is actually one of your goals)

  706. restive_monk has left

  707. kurisu has joined

  708. John has joined

  709. mjk

    > they do a lot to obscure where it's *coming from" TIL

  710. adiaholic has left

  711. wgreenhouse has joined

  712. me9 has left

  713. jl4 has joined

  714. Zash

    I'm happy knowing which server knows what.

  715. kurisu

    >vs XMPP where jabber.de indeed has no idea who I'm communicating with on not-jabber.de wut you mean xmpp server doesn't know who you're communicating with?

  716. Ge0rG

    Sam: but in the end they are only obscuring it, there is no techincal way to prevent them associating both sender and recipient phone numbers to any given message blob

  717. adiaholic has joined

  718. Zash

    Sealed sender is probably more secure in a federated system, but oh so many things break

  719. Sam

    Ge0rG: I don't think that's true at all; the "from" payload that authenticated you is completely obscured from Signals servers, it's part of the e2e bundle

  720. Sam

    Sealed sender, that's what it was called; let me see if I can find the blog post.

  721. Sam

    It has been a few years since it came out, so I don't really remember the details well

  722. Sam


  723. ti_gj06 has joined

  724. Sam

    They just know "some unauthenticated TCP connection uploaded a bundle, we should deliver it and the remote client can authenticate it"

  725. Zash

    Your own server doesn't strictly need to know the recipient identity either, only their server.

  726. Sam

    Obviously there are all kinds of data correlation attacks you could still do (this IP uploads bundles to this user a lot, maybe it's this other person who also uploads bundles to this user) but that's still a significant improvement

  727. wgreenhouse has left

  728. jl4 has left

  729. kurisu

    actually hiding metadata is possible in a p2p chat app. As an example one can quite easily build a chat app over Freenet where absolutely no one but the sender and receiver will know who those are; however with Freenet messages will take a few minutes to deliver so it isn't viable 🙂 IIRC in bitmessage senders are actually concealed and it works sort of but is heavy on cpu and I don't remember if messages are instant

  730. jl4 has joined

  731. Sam

    I keep thinking about that. If my server knows who I am and the server I'm sending to, but not the user on that server, and the other server knows what server delivered it but not who it was from that would be pretty nice (although it would encourage centralization and more users on a server if you wanted that privacy so you could blend in with the crowd)

  732. kurisu has left

  733. Ge0rG

    That would be some interesting XML onion.

  734. Sam

    oh yah, I'm sure it would be very ugly however it works

  735. Sam

    I guess that's more what Tor does than what Signal does. Might be possible to do vaguely what signal does too

  736. intosi has left

  737. msavoritias

    There is also briar that works in a mobile context and p2p. And tries to hide metadata. Obviously it fits a specific use case but some stuff from the metadata and the delay tolearnt capability would be interesting.

  738. lorddavidiii has joined

  739. adiaholic has left

  740. kurisu has joined

  741. kurisu has left

  742. adiaholic has joined

  743. wgreenhouse has joined

  744. TheCoffeMaker has joined

  745. adiaholic has left

  746. intosi has joined

  747. wgreenhouse has left

  748. wladmis has joined

  749. adiaholic has joined

  750. djorz has joined

  751. wgreenhouse has joined

  752. dan.caseley has left

  753. dan.caseley has joined

  754. adiaholic has left

  755. norkki has joined

  756. norkki has left

  757. sonny has left

  758. sonny has joined

  759. emus has left

  760. sonny has left

  761. sonny has joined

  762. kyemxden has left

  763. kyemxden has joined

  764. sonny has left

  765. emus has joined

  766. sonny has joined

  767. marc0s has left

  768. marc0s has joined

  769. norkki has joined

  770. norkki has left

  771. adiaholic has joined

  772. marc0s has left

  773. marc0s has joined

  774. sonny has left

  775. sonny has joined

  776. djorz has left

  777. djorz has joined

  778. moparisthebest

    Sam, it seems fairly clear that signal *could* track exactly which account each message came from though, right ?

  779. restive_monk has joined

  780. millesimus has left

  781. ti_gj06 has left

  782. adiaholic has left

  783. adiaholic has joined

  784. jcbrand has left

  785. goffi has joined

  786. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  787. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  788. jcbrand has joined

  789. wladmis has left

  790. Steve Kille has left

  791. Steve Kille has joined

  792. pjn has left

  793. neshtaxmpp has left

  794. neshtaxmpp has joined

  795. millesimus has joined

  796. dwd

    "sealed sender" on XMPP would be an interesting challenge, because either you can upload bundles to any federated XMPP server, or else you've got to authenticate them to prevent (I think) various abuse cases.

  797. dwd

    And if you can authenticate them at all, you can (in principle) track identity. Well, maybe. And if you use tokens shared between clients, they could pass those tokens around and ew.

  798. dwd

    (By "maybe", I mean, you definitely could, though you might promise not to).

  799. mdosch

    You could hide the sender from the receiving server with some onion like layer model. And hide the receiver from the sending server.

  800. dwd

    Yeah, you'd want something akin to Tor relays, wouldn't you?

  801. dwd

    I mean, it's all possible, just not using the model that Signal use.

  802. dwd

    And I suspect with the right data gathering of the data they do have, it'd be fairly easy to guess the senders correctly in most cases.

  803. moparisthebest

    I think it'd be fairly easy to only tell your server the receiving server instead of full recipient JID

  804. moparisthebest

    The problem is, this is useless for people using the same server

  805. adiaholic has left

  806. dwd

    moparisthebest, Yes, that for sure. For basic messaging. Presence gets a bit trickier.

  807. moparisthebest

    And also almost useless for very small servers

  808. adiaholic has joined

  809. dwd

    moparisthebest, Well, no, it doesn't, but you end up making trade-offs about who is applying ACLs and yuck. We had a big argument about this kind of thing about a decade and a half ago.

  810. moparisthebest

    But I guess signal uses it as a "feature" so if we are just after the marketing...

  811. dwd

    Yes, as the number of users on a server tends to one, it becomes irrelevant.

  812. dwd

    moparisthebest, I'd hope we do more than marketing, yes.

  813. moparisthebest

    Right, but that's why we don't have such a feature, it's mainly useful for marketing, not what people actually care about

  814. dwd

    And of course, this only really applies to pure consumer messaging. When you're dealing with organisations, it's a different model, and you might only want encryption and metadata hiding from the edges out.

  815. moparisthebest

    See also: disappearing messages & time limited messages

  816. millesimus has left

  817. dwd

    moparisthebest, In my world (my current world, I'm departing it probably forever at the end of the month), the problem would be that any use of such a system would carry the implication that you are, indeed, worth watching very closely. (And Armour Comms does do "message burn", e2ee (by some definitions), etc).

  818. pjn has joined

  819. millesimus has joined

  820. david has left

  821. david has joined

  822. Tobias has left

  823. Tobias has joined

  824. kyemxden has left

  825. kyemxden has joined

  826. x51 has left

  827. x51 has joined

  828. reimar has joined

  829. ti_gj06 has joined

  830. djorz has left

  831. atomicwatch has left

  832. emus has left

  833. վարյա has left

  834. emus has joined

  835. djorz has joined

  836. atomicwatch has joined

  837. jgart has joined

  838. Nekit has left

  839. jl4 has left

  840. restive_monk has left

  841. Ellenor Malik

    dwd: are you ok?

  842. Ellenor Malik

    wording of message seemed ominous

  843. wgreenhouse has left

  844. harry837374884 has left

  845. atomicwatch has left

  846. sonny has left

  847. sonny has joined

  848. atomicwatch has joined

  849. dwd

    I mean job/industry, not life! Going back to health instead. Similar issues but without nation states trying to kill my users quite so much. :-)

  850. eevvoor has joined

  851. Holger

    dwd: With or without Erlang?

  852. jonas’

    killing users with erlang?

  853. jonas’

    sounds about right

  854. norkki has joined

  855. Holger

    dwd survived so far.

  856. norkki has left

  857. John has left

  858. guus.der.kinderen

    but did his users?

  859. Holger

    It's fault-tolerant. If some users are killed, this won't affect the rest of us whatsoever.

  860. wgreenhouse has joined

  861. korea has joined

  862. intosi has left

  863. intosi has joined

  864. koreamafia7 has joined

  865. koreamafia7


  866. norkki has joined

  867. harry837374884 has joined

  868. korea has left

  869. koreamafia7


  870. norkki has left

  871. koreamafia7


  872. koreamafia7


  873. koreamafia7


  874. koreamafia7


  875. koreamafia7


  876. koreamafia7


  877. koreamafia7


  878. koreamafia7

    i question

  879. jonas’

    ask your question or stop spamming

  880. koreamafia7

    ok sorry my mistack

  881. koreamafia7


  882. lorddavidiii has left

  883. koreamafia7 has left

  884. jcbrand has left

  885. norkki has joined

  886. x51 has left

  887. x51 has joined

  888. bung has left

  889. lorddavidiii has joined

  890. lorddavidiii has left

  891. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  892. lorddavidiii has joined

  893. lorddavidiii has left

  894. x51 has left

  895. lorddavidiii has joined

  896. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  897. ti_gj06 has left

  898. adiaholic has left

  899. intosi has left

  900. intosi has joined

  901. adiaholic has joined

  902. adiaholic has left

  903. adiaholic has joined

  904. alacer has left

  905. dwd

    Holger, Also, users can be replaced at runtime without anyone noticing.

  906. alacer has joined

  907. kyemxden has left

  908. kyemxden has joined

  909. Yagiza has left

  910. restive_monk has joined

  911. intosi has left

  912. intosi has joined

  913. Steve Kille has left

  914. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  915. papatutuwawa has joined

  916. sonny has left

  917. sonny has joined

  918. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  919. Steve Kille has joined

  920. mdosch has left

  921. mdosch has joined

  922. intosi has left

  923. bung has joined

  924. intosi has joined

  925. emus has left

  926. Calvin has joined

  927. ti_gj06 has joined

  928. Titi has left

  929. sonny has left

  930. sonny has joined

  931. sonny has left

  932. sonny has joined

  933. ti_gj06 has left

  934. intosi has left

  935. intosi has joined

  936. alacer has left

  937. alacer has joined

  938. sonny has left

  939. sonny has joined

  940. Calvin has left

  941. alacer has left

  942. jcbrand has joined

  943. adiaholic has left

  944. david has left

  945. Shackleton has joined

  946. nicola has joined

  947. david has joined

  948. alex11 has joined

  949. Shackleton has left

  950. Alex has left

  951. Alex has joined

  952. intosi has left

  953. intosi has joined

  954. restive_monk has left

  955. nicola has left

  956. lorddavidiii has left

  957. floretta has left

  958. emus has joined

  959. bung

    Which software need help. I will learning language. Now ı am learning Python.

  960. COM8 has joined

  961. COM8 has left

  962. harry837374884 has left

  963. floretta has joined

  964. harry837374884 has joined

  965. intosi has left

  966. lorddavidiii has joined

  967. lorddavidiii has left

  968. lorddavidiii has joined

  969. lorddavidiii has left

  970. intosi has joined

  971. lorddavidiii has joined

  972. lorddavidiii has left

  973. lorddavidiii has joined

  974. lorddavidiii has left

  975. lorddavidiii has joined

  976. lorddavidiii has left

  977. adiaholic has joined

  978. uhoreg has left

  979. homebeach has left

  980. Rixon 👁🗨 has left

  981. Matthew has left

  982. Half-Shot has left

  983. Half-Shot has joined

  984. Matthew has joined

  985. Rixon 👁🗨 has joined

  986. uhoreg has joined

  987. homebeach has joined

  988. Fishbowler has joined

  989. lorddavidiii has joined

  990. lorddavidiii has left

  991. Fishbowler has left

  992. lorddavidiii has joined

  993. lorddavidiii has left

  994. Fishbowler has joined

  995. adiaholic has left

  996. inky has joined

  997. lorddavidiii has joined

  998. lorddavidiii has left

  999. Fishbowler has left

  1000. Fishbowler has joined

  1001. lorddavidiii has joined

  1002. Fishbowler has left

  1003. bung has left

  1004. bung has joined

  1005. adiaholic has joined

  1006. karoshi has left

  1007. intosi has left

  1008. bung has left

  1009. adiaholic has left

  1010. bung has joined

  1011. intosi has joined

  1012. karoshi has joined

  1013. floretta has left

  1014. jl4 has joined

  1015. floretta has joined

  1016. adiaholic has joined

  1017. bung has left

  1018. adiaholic has left

  1019. adiaholic has joined

  1020. obscurelemon has joined

  1021. obscurelemon has left

  1022. jl4 has left

  1023. me9 has joined

  1024. inky has left

  1025. adiaholic has left

  1026. goffi has left

  1027. kyemxden has left

  1028. kyemxden has joined

  1029. intosi has left

  1030. John has joined

  1031. adiaholic has joined

  1032. adiaholic has left

  1033. Titi has joined

  1034. bung has joined

  1035. ti_gj06 has joined

  1036. Zash

    bung: You can find software listed under https://xmpp.org/software/

  1037. adiaholic has joined

  1038. John has left

  1039. kyemxden has left

  1040. kyemxden has joined

  1041. John has joined

  1042. adiaholic has left

  1043. jcbrand has left

  1044. intosi has joined

  1045. bung has left

  1046. me9 has left

  1047. adiaholic has joined

  1048. mjk has left

  1049. mjk has joined

  1050. inky has joined

  1051. marc0s has left

  1052. marc0s has joined

  1053. marc0s has left

  1054. marc0s has joined

  1055. adiaholic has left

  1056. moparisthebest

    emus, newsletter material "5.9 billion new XMPP users this month" https://blog.jmp.chat/b/2022-jabber-xmpp-from-sms

  1057. moparisthebest

    5.9 billion was the first estimate I found searching for number of SMS users, mix with a little bit of Matrix math, done...

  1058. mjk

    Now *that's* a clickbait

  1059. mjk

    > Matrix math I see what you did there

  1060. emus

    moparisthebest: can you make a PR? or add to the pad?

  1061. Zash

    Put _that_ in your HN pipe and smoke it

  1062. andy has joined

  1063. moparisthebest

    hey if we are going to go all-in how many email users are there... https://smtp.cheogram.com/

  1064. moparisthebest

    "I have therefore determined everyone who has ever touched an electronic device is an XMPP user"

  1065. Zash

    Relevant: https://xkcd.com/802/

  1066. intosi has left

  1067. BASSGOD has joined

  1068. bung has joined

  1069. goffi has joined

  1070. goffi has left

  1071. goffi has joined

  1072. papatutuwawa has left

  1073. ti_gj06 has left

  1074. tykayn has left

  1075. reimar has left

  1076. mjk has left

  1077. mjk has joined

  1078. floretta has left

  1079. bean has left

  1080. mjk has left

  1081. mjk has joined

  1082. tykayn has joined

  1083. floretta has joined

  1084. millesimus has left

  1085. wladmis has joined

  1086. andy has left

  1087. msavoritias has left

  1088. millesimus has joined

  1089. Fishbowler has joined

  1090. adiaholic has joined

  1091. atomicwatch has left

  1092. Fishbowler has left

  1093. Fishbowler has joined

  1094. goffi has left

  1095. marc0s has left

  1096. marc0s has joined

  1097. Nekit has joined

  1098. Fishbowler has left

  1099. Fishbowler has joined

  1100. adiaholic has left

  1101. intosi has joined

  1102. Fishbowler has left

  1103. bung has left

  1104. stp has left

  1105. Fishbowler has joined

  1106. Tobias has left

  1107. Fishbowler has left

  1108. Fishbowler has joined

  1109. stp has joined

  1110. Maranda[x] has left

  1111. Maranda[x] has joined

  1112. Fishbowler has left

  1113. wladmis has left

  1114. Fishbowler has joined

  1115. Paganini has left

  1116. Fishbowler has left

  1117. Fishbowler has joined

  1118. floretta has left

  1119. Fishbowler has left

  1120. Fishbowler has joined

  1121. Mikaela has left

  1122. intosi has left

  1123. Fishbowler has left

  1124. stp has left

  1125. lorddavidiii has left

  1126. Fishbowler has joined

  1127. BASSGOD has left

  1128. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  1129. pasdesushi has left

  1130. Fishbowler has left

  1131. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  1132. Fishbowler has joined

  1133. Titi has left

  1134. Titi has joined

  1135. wurstsalat has left

  1136. moparisthebest has left

  1137. Fishbowler has left

  1138. Fishbowler has joined

  1139. floretta has joined

  1140. Fishbowler has left

  1141. moparisthebest has joined

  1142. stp has joined

  1143. Fishbowler has joined

  1144. inky has left

  1145. Fishbowler has left

  1146. inky has joined

  1147. Fishbowler has joined

  1148. Fishbowler has left

  1149. Fishbowler has joined

  1150. Fishbowler has left

  1151. tykayn has left

  1152. inky has left

  1153. inky has joined

  1154. adiaholic has joined

  1155. kyemxden has left

  1156. kyemxden has joined

  1157. emus has left

  1158. adiaholic has left

  1159. kurisu has joined

  1160. Seve has left

  1161. kurisu has left

  1162. adiaholic has joined

  1163. floretta has left

  1164. floretta has joined

  1165. intosi has joined

  1166. mjk has left

  1167. mjk has joined

  1168. jl4 has joined

  1169. harry837374884 has left

  1170. adiaholic has left

  1171. intosi has left

  1172. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has left

  1173. u70jfzo5eyeb468b9o has joined

  1174. mjk has left