XSF Discussion - 2022-01-10

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  161. Neustradamus larma: Have you already looked here? - https://about.psyc.eu - http://www.psyced.org/
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  274. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29871358
  275. yushyin just saw that too :)
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  320. Neustradamus :)
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  327. edhelas And it didn't took that long for the Matrix guy to say how bad is XMPP :p
  328. phryk Are polls (i.e. multiple choice votes) somehow doable with some existing XEP?
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  331. phryk Only thing that would spring to mind for me would be the forms extension plus custom server-side logic. But I think only gajim really supports forms…
  332. Ge0rG phryk: yeah, that's about it.
  333. mathieui There is the quick action xep or something
  334. edhelas basically implement Message Reactions and do polls with emojis :p
  335. mathieui Quick response* xep-0439
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  338. edhelas MattJ i'm interested by your "account access delegation" feature indeed :)
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  340. MattJ More details soon :)
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  343. edhelas such teasing
  344. mathieui (But no public client supports quick response, AFAIK, though I did an implementation in slixmpp)
  345. MattJ edhelas, haven't formally signed anything with NLnet yet, so it feels premature to promise things until then. But it's no secret I've been wanting to improve this (account access and device/client management) for some time :)
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  349. yushyin edhelas, yes, saw the one person with the bad understanding about e2ee and key exchanges. too bad that this matrix per-user e2ee and the matrix feature to _share keys_ with other clients lead to this https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2021-40823
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  369. dwd Zash, Broadly speaking, yes, any fastenish thing needs "deep" work on the MAM storage layer. Also any Inboxish thing, which is required (I think) for thin web clients to be efficient.
  370. dwd phryk, There's some bits of what you need for polls. But I think ideally we need not only forms, but "updatable messages" (or microapps), where a pubsub update can update the rendering of a preexisting message. So you'd present a poll (as form? with quick response? something else?) and by "magic", responses to the form would cause a pubsub event to update your client's view of the message. Perhaps?
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  372. phryk dwd, pubsub can already be used for autoupdating views of ~some data~?
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  377. phryk mathieui, thanks, that looks like it'd be a solid fallback for input even if forms end up broadly adopted.
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  385. edhelas > Isn't that Jabber? Haven't heard of XMPP in a while.
  386. edhelas :D
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  394. yushyin :D
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  425. dwd phryk, No, or at least yes but nothing in the standards for it.
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  430. dwd phryk, If we had all the budget in the world, I'd do polls as sandboxed HTML+JS with APIs for pubsub publishes and events. But we don't have *any* of that beyond pubsub itself. :-)
  431. phryk oh god, please no js in xmpp.
  432. kurisu if I had all the budget in the world I'd kill HTML+JS with fire like the cancer that it is
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  434. dwd phryk, Oh, we're in daydream mode, right, so we can have them signed and you can trust only certain publishers or something.
  435. kurisu js in xmpp is more like nightmare mode
  436. dwd kurisu, Why? Genuine question.
  437. phryk dwd, still, i don't want a goddamn browser engine in my client in order to be able to participate properly ::F
  438. dwd phryk, It does make things pretty heavyweight, yes. If essentially any message could spawn an entire HTML+JSS sandbox environment, it'd put Chrome to shame.
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  441. phryk if xmpp integrates js, I'll drop it like a hot radioactive potato.^^
  442. jonas’ holy smokes what happened here
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  444. kurisu dwd, because it's effectively google's proprietary platform at this point. Not to mention the browser which is supposed to be just an http client + a viewer of some goddamn formatted text with forms now takes more to compile than the entire rest of my distro combined - if this isn't bloat, I don't know what is. Note how I say *the* browser because there's hardly any difference between them at this point, it's all a proprietary platform of google and its evil friends
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  446. dwd kurisu, OK, but the notion of combining a display language and a scripting language with a constrained API, packaging up microapps into messaging itself is OK, or not?
  447. jonas’ no?
  448. jonas’ that sounds like the same misdirection the web took
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  459. dwd jonas’, It did make the web very useful, mind.
  460. jonas’ also very misuseful
  461. dwd jonas’, And we wouldn't be running about making XMPP web clients with video calling if it hadn't taken that path.
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  463. jonas’ instead, we'd polish the calling functionality the clients already had a decade ago
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  465. dwd jonas’, That's probably wishful thinking. WebRTC didn't exist back then, yet we still had largely non-functional and non-interoperable calling then.
  466. jonas’ maybe
  467. dwd jonas’, Video calling, in particular, was basically borked. We had voice, though.
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  469. jonas’ dwd, so integrating some kind of scripting language is a massive barrier for application development
  470. jonas’ you need runtimes for that language on all platforms (the mobile and web ones will be extra fun to deal with), and that needs to be sandboxed properly
  471. dwd jonas’, I can see that. Especially as being the community we are, we're have to pick something insanely esoteric.
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  473. jonas’ I think the sanest choice would be webasm.
  474. dwd I rest my case.
  475. jonas’ cut away all the javascript cruft, go right with webasm asa runtime.
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  478. jonas’ it should provide all sandboxing and there exists lots of tools to compile to it
  479. jonas’ it's supported by browsers
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  481. jonas’ it should be usable on mobile one way or another
  482. jonas’ I don't like the taste of microapps still.
  483. jonas’ it's not how I (want to) use IM.
  484. jonas’ but *if* one would want to do it, webasm with access to the message and possibly IQs to the sender in some circumstances would probably the sanest way to do it.
  485. dwd I think the simplest generic platform you could build polls on would be some kind of templating system - and maybe forms with the display stuff is sufficient? - with a kind of encapsulated pubsub driving it, tied to a single node.
  486. dwd Troulbe is, I don't know what else you could build with that that's of any use.
  487. Link Mauve Wait wait wait, what would you want to integrate JS or wasm for in my XMPP client?
  488. jonas’ :D
  489. dwd Otherwise, you need scripting. And the reason I actually quite like the notion of microapps is that a lot of innovation has occured in things like Slack Apps that looks really interesting.
  490. jonas’ Link Mauve, wasm, no JS!
  491. Link Mauve jonas’, that’s already much more sensible, but… why?!
  492. dwd Link Mauve, Obviously it'd have to be LUA.
  493. Link Mauve OH NO, NOT LUA. :p
  495. jonas’ dwd, how much of that would work well in any way in XMPP, given that the wire format has nearly no control over the presentational layer since we dropped XHTML-IM?
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  498. dwd Link Mauve, Oh, SQL-over-pubsub, new XEP coming.
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  501. dwd jonas’, Well, yes, that's a whole other problem. We could go Slack's "blocks", mind, which is almost what we have with XEP-0141 et al.
  502. dwd I mean, I guess there's XEP-0336 too.
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  505. Link Mauve dwd, XEP-0043 you mean?
  506. dwd Link Mauve, Wow. "Retracted", because we don't have a state for "Burned with Fire".
  507. Link Mauve :D
  508. Link Mauve Wow, the DTD is fully unreadable in our dark theme.
  509. Link Mauve Purple on dark grey.
  510. jonas’ did you mean: Mauve on dark grey?
  511. dwd Link Mauve, That's to protect your eyesight.
  512. dwd jonas’, I see what you did there.
  513. Link Mauve :3
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  515. dwd But anyway, yes, little somewhat-scriptable dynamic messages. Microapps, whatever. We could probably do them without any client-side scripting, or at least with something so restrictive it was a case of "If the user actuates this button send this". But it'd be nice to get something that'd handle, say, polls, or giphy, or whatever else people think up without having to have everything hard-coded into the clients.
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  517. Link Mauve There: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1147
  518. jonas’ dwd, buttons?!
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  520. Link Mauve dwd, isn’t giphy just a video player?
  521. jonas’ Link Mauve, it's also a selectino tool on the sender side
  522. Link Mauve Like Movim’s thingy?
  523. jonas’ possibly, I never used movim
  524. Link Mauve And you’d do that by… having some entity send you wasm code and execute it in your client? :x
  525. Link Mauve Can I opt out from this future right now?
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  527. Link Mauve Movim says it’s using Tenor for the video search engine.
  528. jonas’ ah yes
  529. Link Mauve https://tenor.com/ this one.
  530. Link Mauve So the limited wasm API would still give said external entity on the network access to arbitrary HTTP requests, video decoding, message sending, and what more?
  531. Link Mauve So the limited wasm API would still give said external entity on the network access to arbitrary HTTP requests, video decoding, widget drawing, message sending, and what more?
  532. jonas’ I was proposing giving it access only to the message containing the wasm payload, plus maybe IQs to the sender address in response to user interaction.
  533. jonas’ hence, "what is that even useful for given the really low amount of presentational layer influence the wire protocol has"
  534. Link Mauve Right.
  535. dwd Link Mauve, I'd probably avoid that for preference, and tie communications back to a fixed source endpoint and - probably - asking permission to send a specific message.
  536. Link Mauve So that takes giphy and external polls out.
  537. jonas’ Link Mauve, though loading a snippet of wasm to run in your message text prompt would also be interesting
  538. Link Mauve (If giphy is like tenor.com’s integration into Movim.)
  539. dwd Link Mauve, Don't think so? Means that the microapp provider has to mediate all communication to third parties, though.
  540. jonas’ then it should just be able to render a preview message based on your input
  541. jonas’ and by render I mean provide the message stanza
  542. jonas’ then your client can render the preview from that
  543. jonas’ (with the client stripping all things it doesn't know about)
  544. jonas’ the wasm could generate multiple variants (in the tenor case, multiple matching videos) and let you pick one of them.
  545. jonas’ then you had a wasm thing which is already quite useful to actually do things
  546. Link Mauve Aaaaaaah, Movim lets those videos play sound as well! >_<
  547. Link Mauve I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it.
  548. Link Mauve edhelas, ↑
  549. Link Mauve It even loops, with audio.
  550. Link Mauve And no way to stop it.
  551. Link Mauve Great UX you have here. ^^'
  552. Link Mauve jonas’, so, the wasm thing would let any external entity play sound in your client, with no way to do anything against it? :p
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  554. dwd Link Mauve, Well, you can have a permissioning system to allow/deny audio, I suppose, but in any case, I'm beginning to wonder if it's even required to have a real scripting language, or if we can just handle UI events by passing messages and optionally replacing the entire microapp UI.
  555. Link Mauve Like the abuse of 0308 we did a while ago in poezio?
  556. dwd I don't know about that. But given what I can guess, maybe.
  557. Link Mauve Test of <marquee/>.
  558. Link Mauve  Test of <marquee/>.                   
  559. Link Mauve   Test of <marquee/>.                  
  560. Link Mauve    Test of <marquee/>.                 
  561. Link Mauve     Test of <marquee/>.                
  562. Link Mauve      Test of <marquee/>.               
  563. Link Mauve       Test of <marquee/>.              
  564. Link Mauve        Test of <marquee/>.             
  565. Link Mauve         Test of <marquee/>.            
  566. Link Mauve          Test of <marquee/>.           
  567. Link Mauve           Test of <marquee/>.          
  568. Link Mauve            Test of <marquee/>.         
  569. Link Mauve             Test of <marquee/>.        
  570. Link Mauve              Test of <marquee/>.       
  571. Link Mauve               Test of <marquee/>.      
  572. Link Mauve                Test of <marquee/>.     
  573. Link Mauve                 Test of <marquee/>.    
  574. Link Mauve                  Test of <marquee/>.   
  575. Link Mauve                   Test of <marquee/>.  
  576. Link Mauve                    Test of <marquee/>. 
  577. Link Mauve                     Test of <marquee/>.
  578. Link Mauve .                    Test of <marquee/>
  579. Link Mauve >.                    Test of <marquee/
  580. Link Mauve />.                    Test of <marquee
  581. Link Mauve e/>.                    Test of <marque
  582. Link Mauve ee/>.                    Test of <marqu
  583. Link Mauve uee/>.                    Test of <marq
  584. Link Mauve I love it. :D
  585. Link Mauve quee/>.                    Test of <mar
  586. Link Mauve rquee/>.                    Test of <ma
  587. Link Mauve arquee/>.                    Test of <m
  588. Link Mauve marquee/>.                    Test of <
  589. dwd I'm not seeing those as '308...
  590. Link Mauve Oh?
  591. dwd I see one correction followed by a ton of subsequent messages...
  592. Link Mauve Oh, perhaps the plugin didn’t get updated to the new semantics of 0308.
  593. Link Mauve I’ll have a look someday, maybe.
  594. dwd In any case, congratulations, you've discovered something worse than spontanetously playing audio.
  595. restive_monk has left
  596. lskdjf Link Mauve wrote "I love it" in between the corrections. Perhaps the corrections afterwards are be applied to the original marque test message, however it's not the last message anymore. Thus, last message corrections aren't accepted anymore.
  597. dwd lskdjf, No, I got a load of non-corrections prior to that.
  598. lskdjf hm. For me, all corrections prior to "I love it" applied fine.
  599. jonas’ :D
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  602. dwd Ah, interop will be easy, they said...
  603. jonas’ I love marquee :)
  604. dwd jonas’, I mean, I hate it, but I love that it's (almost?) possible to do.
  605. Link Mauve lskdjf, oh, so you have the one client doing a check for Last message correction, while other clients implement arbitrary message correction.
  606. dwd jonas’, I'd just like some other facilities to do more complex things like polls etc. XEPs actually built to abuse, if you like.
  607. dwd I mean, the XSF Memberbot could be written as a Slack App. Obviously it'd be ironic to do so, but you could easily enough, I think, write an app that people could see, discover, and vote on, and that would provide all the links etc. And I think that's a more powerful mechanism than anything we have right now.
  608. mjk Link Mauve: is it *one* though? I'd hope more clients aside to Conversations do _last_ message correction
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  612. lskdjf mjk, Dino also accepts the last message for correction only.
  613. mjk Whew
  614. mjk Anyway, this whole conversation was a pretty traumatic rollercoaster. Javascript in stanzas? Check. Chromium in Poezio? Check. Multimedia on autoplay? Check. Trusted stanza execution environment next?
  615. jonas’ mjk, webasm in sgx in stanzas!
  616. jonas’ and smart contracts!
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  619. mjk Webasm sounds much more benign than requiring an intel x86 cpu to poll on things
  620. jonas’ :D
  621. jonas’ 12:12:13 jonas’> it's not how I (want to) use IM.
  622. mjk Amen
  623. mjk ~Amen~ So say we all
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  627. jonas’ but with my council hat on, if members of the XMPP ecosystem want something like that, I feel obliged to guide them to non-terrible choices
  628. jonas’ (like wasm over javascript)
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  632. Link Mauve No matter the hat I wear, yes to that.
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  665. mjk Link Mauve: btw, what is that Lua-related trauma you seem to have
  666. jonas’ I think the trauma might've been LUA related…
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  668. mjk Ah, I suspected that
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  671. Zash I see you had a Lua Uppercase Accident
  672. jonas’ I'm convinced it wasn't an accident
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  674. mjk On a related note, there seem to be some impostor xmpp client circulating in the ecosystem, referred to as DINO. User discretion is advised
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  688. moparisthebest Nothing is more annoying than "signal doesn't know who sent what to whom!!!!"
  689. moparisthebest They have to, to deliver it
  690. moparisthebest The fact that they have a bunch of fancy mumbo jumbo that boils down to "we pinky promise not to look or remember" is neither here nor there
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  692. Zash Looks good in marketing
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  698. moparisthebest Vs XMPP where jabber.de indeed has no idea who I'm communicating with on not-jabber.de
  699. moparisthebest If "privacy" people can't grasp this simple concept maybe they should just communicate over SMS
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  702. mjk But RCS is morw private!!11 Google promised not to look!
  703. Zash But your evil admin is all-knowing and spies on everything!
  704. Sam I'm sure some people misrepresent this as "signal doesn't know where a message is going", which is not true, but they do a lot to obscure where it's *coming from", maybe we should actually make something similar instead of pretending this has no value.
  705. Sam Sure, it's not as perfect as the HN crowd seems to think, but they're not wrong that it's a lot better than what we do (assuming that hiding that metadata is actually one of your goals)
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  709. mjk > they do a lot to obscure where it's *coming from" TIL
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  714. Zash I'm happy knowing which server knows what.
  715. kurisu >vs XMPP where jabber.de indeed has no idea who I'm communicating with on not-jabber.de wut you mean xmpp server doesn't know who you're communicating with?
  716. Ge0rG Sam: but in the end they are only obscuring it, there is no techincal way to prevent them associating both sender and recipient phone numbers to any given message blob
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  718. Zash Sealed sender is probably more secure in a federated system, but oh so many things break
  719. Sam Ge0rG: I don't think that's true at all; the "from" payload that authenticated you is completely obscured from Signals servers, it's part of the e2e bundle
  720. Sam Sealed sender, that's what it was called; let me see if I can find the blog post.
  721. Sam It has been a few years since it came out, so I don't really remember the details well
  722. Sam https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/
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  724. Sam They just know "some unauthenticated TCP connection uploaded a bundle, we should deliver it and the remote client can authenticate it"
  725. Zash Your own server doesn't strictly need to know the recipient identity either, only their server.
  726. Sam Obviously there are all kinds of data correlation attacks you could still do (this IP uploads bundles to this user a lot, maybe it's this other person who also uploads bundles to this user) but that's still a significant improvement
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  729. kurisu actually hiding metadata is possible in a p2p chat app. As an example one can quite easily build a chat app over Freenet where absolutely no one but the sender and receiver will know who those are; however with Freenet messages will take a few minutes to deliver so it isn't viable 🙂 IIRC in bitmessage senders are actually concealed and it works sort of but is heavy on cpu and I don't remember if messages are instant
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  731. Sam I keep thinking about that. If my server knows who I am and the server I'm sending to, but not the user on that server, and the other server knows what server delivered it but not who it was from that would be pretty nice (although it would encourage centralization and more users on a server if you wanted that privacy so you could blend in with the crowd)
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  733. Ge0rG That would be some interesting XML onion.
  734. Sam oh yah, I'm sure it would be very ugly however it works
  735. Sam I guess that's more what Tor does than what Signal does. Might be possible to do vaguely what signal does too
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  737. msavoritias There is also briar that works in a mobile context and p2p. And tries to hide metadata. Obviously it fits a specific use case but some stuff from the metadata and the delay tolearnt capability would be interesting.
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  778. moparisthebest Sam, it seems fairly clear that signal *could* track exactly which account each message came from though, right ?
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  796. dwd "sealed sender" on XMPP would be an interesting challenge, because either you can upload bundles to any federated XMPP server, or else you've got to authenticate them to prevent (I think) various abuse cases.
  797. dwd And if you can authenticate them at all, you can (in principle) track identity. Well, maybe. And if you use tokens shared between clients, they could pass those tokens around and ew.
  798. dwd (By "maybe", I mean, you definitely could, though you might promise not to).
  799. mdosch You could hide the sender from the receiving server with some onion like layer model. And hide the receiver from the sending server.
  800. dwd Yeah, you'd want something akin to Tor relays, wouldn't you?
  801. dwd I mean, it's all possible, just not using the model that Signal use.
  802. dwd And I suspect with the right data gathering of the data they do have, it'd be fairly easy to guess the senders correctly in most cases.
  803. moparisthebest I think it'd be fairly easy to only tell your server the receiving server instead of full recipient JID
  804. moparisthebest The problem is, this is useless for people using the same server
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  806. dwd moparisthebest, Yes, that for sure. For basic messaging. Presence gets a bit trickier.
  807. moparisthebest And also almost useless for very small servers
  808. adiaholic has joined
  809. dwd moparisthebest, Well, no, it doesn't, but you end up making trade-offs about who is applying ACLs and yuck. We had a big argument about this kind of thing about a decade and a half ago.
  810. moparisthebest But I guess signal uses it as a "feature" so if we are just after the marketing...
  811. dwd Yes, as the number of users on a server tends to one, it becomes irrelevant.
  812. dwd moparisthebest, I'd hope we do more than marketing, yes.
  813. moparisthebest Right, but that's why we don't have such a feature, it's mainly useful for marketing, not what people actually care about
  814. dwd And of course, this only really applies to pure consumer messaging. When you're dealing with organisations, it's a different model, and you might only want encryption and metadata hiding from the edges out.
  815. moparisthebest See also: disappearing messages & time limited messages
  816. millesimus has left
  817. dwd moparisthebest, In my world (my current world, I'm departing it probably forever at the end of the month), the problem would be that any use of such a system would carry the implication that you are, indeed, worth watching very closely. (And Armour Comms does do "message burn", e2ee (by some definitions), etc).
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  841. Ellenor Malik dwd: are you ok?
  842. Ellenor Malik wording of message seemed ominous
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  849. dwd I mean job/industry, not life! Going back to health instead. Similar issues but without nation states trying to kill my users quite so much. :-)
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  851. Holger dwd: With or without Erlang?
  852. jonas’ killing users with erlang?
  853. jonas’ sounds about right
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  855. Holger dwd survived so far.
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  858. guus.der.kinderen but did his users?
  859. Holger It's fault-tolerant. If some users are killed, this won't affect the rest of us whatsoever.
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  865. koreamafia7 hello
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  869. koreamafia7 hello
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  871. koreamafia7 k
  872. koreamafia7 kvcx
  873. koreamafia7 f
  874. koreamafia7 d
  875. koreamafia7 f
  876. koreamafia7 df
  877. koreamafia7 d
  878. koreamafia7 i question
  879. jonas’ ask your question or stop spamming
  880. koreamafia7 ok sorry my mistack
  881. koreamafia7 *misstake
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  905. dwd Holger, Also, users can be replaced at runtime without anyone noticing.
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  959. bung Which software need help. I will learning language. Now ı am learning Python.
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  1036. Zash bung: You can find software listed under https://xmpp.org/software/
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  1056. moparisthebest emus, newsletter material "5.9 billion new XMPP users this month" https://blog.jmp.chat/b/2022-jabber-xmpp-from-sms
  1057. moparisthebest 5.9 billion was the first estimate I found searching for number of SMS users, mix with a little bit of Matrix math, done...
  1058. mjk Now *that's* a clickbait
  1059. mjk > Matrix math I see what you did there
  1060. emus moparisthebest: can you make a PR? or add to the pad?
  1061. Zash Put _that_ in your HN pipe and smoke it
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  1063. moparisthebest hey if we are going to go all-in how many email users are there... https://smtp.cheogram.com/
  1064. moparisthebest "I have therefore determined everyone who has ever touched an electronic device is an XMPP user"
  1065. Zash Relevant: https://xkcd.com/802/
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