XSF Discussion - 2022-01-13

Good morning to whom it suits! ☺ Its almost mid of January already - time flies! Anyway, its the perfect time to add your news and input to the XMPP Newsletter, covering December and January! If you have news, please formulate a suggestion and post it or make a simple pull request here Newsletter draft on Github: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/milestone/3 (Navigate to the latest issue, then to 'Files changes', then 'Edit File') Or drop your news text to our online pad: https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-newsletter-365days We are also looking for volunteers on translations on a regular basis. For example Spanish! Have a good day! ✏

Two years back or so I casually mentioned (in one of the higher traffic XMPP MUCs, not sure which) having 5.2.22 (February 5th this year) as **the XMPP day** ... I guess no one picked up the idea, did someone? I'm not having any resources (mostly lacking time) at the moment to prepare something, other than resharing the idea to prepare some kind of website that tells the user what xmpp is, why it might be better than the alternatives and how to get started. Maybe heise.de or similar newsportals or techblogs would pick the story up, there is a lot of fuss about signal and telegram this week... Not sure If anyone is even bothering to promote XMPP. Maybe someone is even working on something? Just thought I'd ask here...

(we can also prepare some XMPP federation day on 05.02.2069 🤣️)

5/2 of every year should be xmpp day, after 5/2 this year

yes, possible

sebastian, that only works in certain date formats unfortunately

but this year we have the only chance (for the next 100 yrs i guess) to have 5.2.22 🙂 Unless we (we as in, i think XMPP is mostly a europen thing) would accept 2nd of May 5/2/22 as XMPP day 😉

jonas’, true...

2022-02-05 would be the ISO way of writing that date, I think some crazy locales write it as 2/5/22 …

you *are* aware that the XSF is in fact incorporated in the US? ;)

barely 😉

(but indeed it seems that a lot of public development is currently driven from the EU side of the large pond)

I think at least some of the important projects are somehow european, right? Conversations, dino, prosody, snikket, Converse.js (I'm not entirely sure, but i think the dev resides in germany, too) ... not sure about the others

*european based

yeah... didn't want to start a date format discussion... just asking if someone has maybe had the same thought than me

I like the idea fwiw

I have not a terribly great idea what we could do though, let's page some from commsteam like emus.

it wouldn't even be much work right? just registering a cheap domain (like XMPP-day.live for 2€/yr), put a static website withsome info in the major languages (or languages we can find someone to contribute in) and then email it to blogs

i don't know if it would be succesfull, but i just like the story of a XMPP day that is approaching. 5222 is even used by some jabber service as the name or part of their name (https://5222.de/ ) and IPv6 also had it's IPv6 day (altough only 10 yrs later see we really adoption that is worth talking about 😉 )

I just let that thought sit here, maybe i could contribute some efforts to translate part of the website, but apparently i do not have the resource to coordinate things at the moment.

the "some info" would be interesting to gather

I'm happy to register a domain on short notice as well as provide infrastructure for a static(!) website, but I currently don't have the capacity to create marketing materials

https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ <- this is already a good start, but it imho lacks the **why XMPP**

sebastian: Maybe we should just take the publication date (1st of April?). A blog post could be nice

> sebastian escribió: > it wouldn't even be much work right? just registering a cheap domain (like XMPP-day.live for 2€/yr), put a static website withsome info in the major languages (or languages we can find someone to contribute in) and then email it to blogs Lets rather develop on our page. we also are low on ressources

> sebastian escribió: > https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ <- this is already a good start, but it imho lacks the **why XMPP** yes, but lets not waste efforts and time in a new domain (we still can do it one day). Rather spend time in what you want to communicate I would say

and actually writing content

emus, > Maybe we should just take the publication date (1st of April?). A blog post could be nice April 1st? It would allow for more time, but the date would not look interesting ... 1.4.22 or 22-4-1... unlike 5.2.22 🙂 > Lets rather develop on our page. Where the informatoin is hosted later is not so much important as to the message to have a kind of "XMPP appreciation day" > we also are low on ressources Thats the problem. We would need some person(s) who are interested and have time to push it. Also some webdesigner would be nice to make it look good and not just a wall of text. I'm terrible at story telling, so someone who knows how to clearly communicate so the majority of people get the message quick would be an advantage

but isnt the focus on how the date looks a bit of the wrong parameter? Most important is what we will call for at this day and also communicate? And then get it on "paper".

but 5.2.22 is only once in a hundred years!

Yes.. i'm happy about any promotion about xmpp. My idea was just to combine the date, that looks like the default XMPP port with the message about XMPP

well, twice, if you also consider the 'murican way of writing dates

I think if we frame around this day we can ask all projects to write something and we put it on one website we are posting tot the networks

Ge0rG, true. But there was also only once in a lifetime "IPv6 launch day", sometime in 2012?

sebastian: what's IPv6? ;)

sebastian: if you want you can create a pad and collect ideas etc?

some obscure protocol, most ISPs dont happily support and some peopel deacativate on purpose 😬️

emus, i can do that yes. Do you have a suggestion which pad to use?

we can do a european XMPP day on 5.2.22 and a US XMPP day on 5/2/22 :D

what about a holiday between 0222h utc 5th Feb and 0526h utc 9th Feb?

sebastian: yopad or crytopad - any better recommendations? Actually I would be happy to have a unitfied workspace tool in the XSF

emus, https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-day-365days - i just quickly drafted my thoughts. Actually i need to get some day-job work done now, i hope i can spend some more time in the evening, but feel free to comment already or even put your ideas in it... https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-day-365days (CC jonas’ Ge0rG )

sebastian: maybe your should join and announce also:

emus, ?

xmpp:commteam@muc.xmpp.org?join

I wonder if https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#impl-service-ghosts is sensible (something that Kev warned me about earlier, I think). Specifically: I think that the listed 'delivery-related' errors can occur in an IQ stanza response, without actually being indicative of a vanished user.

Guus, this reminds me of the situation with xmpp errors vs xmpp pongs: https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/blob/master/smack-extensions/src/main/java/org/jivesoftware/smackx/ping/PingManager.java#L151-L169

hmm, but the error conditions are different ✏

I can help to organize the xmpp on buenos aires (maybe a virtual conference due to covid)

jonas’ Why not celebrate XMPP 24 times a day at `hh:52:22` for one precious second? I'm too ISOfied to believe in dd.mm.yyyy or mm/dd/yyyy.

ahhh

week-years?

Tuesday, 52nd week of every year?

tues to sat?

Well for a nice Iso date, I'm afraid we have to wait for too long 😁 debacle

debacle, let just make the calendar `YYYY-MM-DD`

Time to update: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29921870 - https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/s327wa/prosody_01112_released_cve20220217_fix/

The last time someone told me "that's not a problem anymore, we use a restricted subset, just use any XML library and that won't happen!" was just a few days ago. I feel vindicated.

I thought of you ;)

(not that I'm happy, of course, sorry you got hit by it)

This was originally an internal API that wasn't exposed (or even used), and then one day we used it for mod_websocket, assuming it was configured the same way as our usual XMPP stream parser.

"it wasn't"

Indeed it wasn't

Sam, come to the dark side, we have ~cookies~ XML libraries which don't do any of this: https://docs.rs/rxml/

Meeting time?

Now AFAIK

0. Welcome

Hi all!

Hello Ralph!

Long time no see. Hope that everybody had some relaxing holidays and is ready to take on 2022.

Howdy

MattJ around?

Also, any topics we should discuss today?

Normally we'd be anxiously awaiting FOSDEM swag to be arranged and so on, but alas.

Nothing from me

I love to just know the current status of things since last year

Hey

1. Minute taker

(hi MattJ)

I think last minutes were by JC, so MattJ would be up

2. Updates

arc: anything specific? I don't think much has happened during the holidays. I did see a Tweet go out about GSoC

I mean like the documents that were being worked on, like CoC

It's been awhile

So yes, XEP-0458 has been up for a while now. I don't remember seeing much feedback on it since. Maybe dwd has gotten some. I think we could think about issuing last-call on it.

jcbrand, MattJ what do you think?

Yep, sounds good to me. I can't remember where we left it.

I've been assuming it's in force :)

I'm relatively meh on CoCs. But if people think it's necessary then sure. Dunno how we survived all this time without one ✏

(there has been context to that document)

(it's very useful to have)

(I already used it to enforce in operators@, where we put it in place pre-emptively)

I think if we do not act whichever way this week it will expire, no?

… expire?

Oh wait it is already > 6 months

defer, if anything

yes, I meant that

Doesn't the fact that you used it preemptively show the an official one isn't necessary? ✏

jcbrand, well, it would be better to have something to point at which doesn't have a huge red EXPERIMENTAL on it :)

violators are generally not easy-going with such things

Well of course the absence of such a thing doesn't mean we cannot act, and I think that's what jcbrand is getting at

Yes

right, but the absence of such a thing means that I, for instance, would not be available for moderation tasks.

And the existence of one sometimes gets used for witch hunts

I want a code I can operate based on, because otherwise all I am going to get is haggling with the perpetrators whether something was ok or not.

Right, but I did act, and it was a mess, and that's why although I am also "meh" on CoCs in general, I am in favour of this document existing and getting finalized

Ok

I'd rather a world where such things weren't needed, but that's not the world we live in

and that became too apparent to me last year, in an XSF discussion channel

Ok then. So I guess we should reinvite people to comment on this experimental doc and then find a time to issue a last-call towards Active.

In fact it's increasingly becoming a world where we need this

At which point Board will evaluate and Make It So™ or not.

MattJ could you initiate this?

starting an LC is the editor's task, isn't it?

I'm currently metaphorically snowed under, but I'm working my way to the surface... I can make a note for myself but probably don't expect anything from me before Feb

Sounds like ralphm wants more discussion before LC

why not use the LC as venue for discussion?

Well, isn't it a bit weird to have an experimental document go virtually undiscussed since publication and then say "you now have 14 days"

but you could also kindly ask the editor to informally call for discussion on members@ and/or standards@ … :) ✏

though it would feel redundant to me

But hey, I have no problem with issuing the LC right away

if an LC is closely to follow

Give me a week to hunt through email etc and check if I meant to add some things, please?

that's a good reason not to LC right away :)

About it being experimental, you can tell people they're being experimentally reprimanded 😆

jcbrand, I get the impression you never moderated a medium to large pseudonymous chat community ;)

From XEP-0001: An Experimental (or Deferred) XEP may be proposed to the Approving Body for advancement to Stable (Standards Track XEPs) or Active (Historical, Informational, and Procedural XEPs). This can be requested from the Approving Body on the Standards list by, or in collaboration with, the XEP author. In case the XEP has been abandoned by its author(s), any other individual can propose advancement in their stead. The Approving Body will then require a Document Shepherd to take on responsibilities on behalf of the XEP author during the proposal and approval processes. The Approving Body must agree that the XEP is ready to be considered for advancement. Once the Approving Body so agrees, it shall instruct the XMPP Extensions Editor to (1) change the status of the XEP from Experimental (or Deferred) to Proposed and (2) issue a Last Call for open discussion on the Standards list. The Last Call shall expire not less than fourteen (14) days after the date of issue.

You'd be wrong jonas

so basically we need to tell jonas’ to have it progress

jcbrand, alright

ralphm, let's give dwd the chance to figure things out tho

of course

dwd: just give us The Sign when you are ready

Anything else?

jonas’: thinking about my own experience, yes having rules helps a lot

jcbrand, I think CoC's are one of those things that you can get away without for ages until you need them, when you suddenly desperately need them.

3. AOB

?

[gotta run, dinnertime]

ralphm: I have aob or for next time

Not really. There's been discussion about something to replace FOSDEM/summit this year, but that's not really a board matter.

No, it doesn't work that way. Either you have an AOB now, or an agenda item for next time :D

I sent an email to board@ about fiscal hosting a bit ago, please review or I can send again

MattJ: disagree a bit, and was thinking the same thing

We should put that on the agenda for next week

Sam: noted

4. Date of Next

+1W

5. Close

I'd love an in-person summit

Thanks all!

Thanks ralphm

jcbrand: totally

I've been having this stuff on my attic for about 2 years now

ralphm, which part do you disagree with slightly? Doing something, or whether it's a board matter?

Not with Omicron surging.

I'd be fine with an in-person summit of the willing

Rest could connect remotely

I think it's impractical to have a normal summit. Between the unwilling and the willing-but-unable/impractical-due-to-restrictions it would probably be two people in a room.

Plus there's the organizational responsibility of the xsf

I'll have a summit with myself.

I'll mutter to myself in a corner then get hammered on Belgian beer.

MattJ: not being a Board matter. It will probably require a bunch more funding that we usually alot to the Summit

allot

dwd, normal summit then

MattJ, Standard standrds work.

Can confirm, having attended IETF

Zash, If you remember an IETF you weren't there.

I don't see a Summit happening this year around virtual FOSDEM, but maybe we can find a time in the spring?

Yeah, we could wait for spring/summer when cases are lower

maybe keep our eyes and ears open for other events we could piggy-back on

I don't suppose many of you are aiming for the OpenInfra Summit in Berlin this year

Traditionally (I hate that there is already a traditionally with the pandemic) summers have been quiter. So late-ish summer after we all got the omikron booster might be the best option for a on person event

Brussels in summer instead of Brussels in slush? That might be nice

> maybe keep our eyes and ears open for other events we could piggy-back on I'd be surprised to see any larger in person events happening this year

OpenInfra is intended to be in person, but also in july (or was it june?) and with just 1k people.

I don't find that super unrealistic looking at historic case data for that month

What might work is to drive a series of smaller online conferences driving at specific goals.

online-sprints

Daniel: really? PyCon in the US seems to be happening. I think that everything is starting up again soon.

I've heard of some in-person confs which have switched from two days in person to a week of 2-hour lunchtime online conferences, and it seems to work really well.

Meh

Lunchtime is sacred

I don't particularly care about online events. At all.

ralphm, Unless vaccination starts occuring globally, I think we're looking at another variant soon enough.

Me neither

No, I'm not that excited by online events either. But where the option is nothing at all...

Variants will happen regardless of vaccination

Just like with flu

ralphm: dunno. I think the problem with larger events is not that there is never a time period where case numbers are lower. But the uncertainty. And large events need to be planned

dwd: I'm sure. I am done with not living, though.

How many people at a summit? 30?

Not that huge

jcbrand, No, but ~nobody travels just for a summit.

jcbrand, I mean, Kev does. But I don't think anyone else.

Yes, there's also the drinking

:-D

I've described the XSF in various venues as a drinking club with a standards problem, indeed.

ew

please don't include me in that description

jonas’, Implicated by association. :-P

One only has a standards problem when there are not enough of them, right?

I'm gonna put "strict non-alcohol drinker" on my next application :P

Ribs, Beer and Standards

jonas’, We've had plenty of high-profile non-drinkers - you, Kev, Remko - the problem is we also have the rest of us, and we make up your shortfall.

Actually, I don't like drinking too much at confs, I hate hangovers and don't like the cognitive impairment the next day, but I like meeting socially and chatting with people and a bit of alcohol really helps to take the edge off

slushels

Gotta maintain the balmer ratio or whatever it's called

jcbrand, Ah, the Balmer Peak.

That's it

https://xkcd.com/323/

Also, I live in wine region, it's my social duty to support local businesses

TIL https://interoperability.news/about/

Maybe the XSF wants to get in?

There's already Matrix

+1

wine region ? I too use linux

moparisthebest: non

pays du vin

Great news ED MattJ

> ralphm escribió: > I don't see a Summit happening this year around virtual FOSDEM, but maybe we can find a time in the spring? no, lets not make a counter-party > dwd escribió: > I've heard of some in-person confs which have switched from two days in person to a week of 2-hour lunchtime online conferences, and it seems to work really well. really nice

dwd, reassuring :)

moparisthebest: I use arch btw

Just kidding, Ubuntu 😁

jcbrand, https://www.moparisthebest.com/images/i-only-use-arch-linux.png for real though :D

😆