XSF Discussion - 2022-01-13

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06:58:25 emus Good morning to whom it suits! ☺ Its almost mid of January already - time flies! Anyway, its the perfect time to add your news and input to the XMPP Newsletter, covering December and January! If you have news, please formulate a suggestion and post it or make a simple pull request here Newsletter draft on Github: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/milestone/3 (Navigate to the latest issue, then to 'Files changes', then 'Edit File') Or drop your news text to our online pad: https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-newsletter-365days Have a good day! We are also looking for volunteers on translations on a regular basis. For example Spanish! ✎
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06:58:57 emus Good morning to whom it suits! ☺ Its almost mid of January already - time flies! Anyway, its the perfect time to add your news and input to the XMPP Newsletter, covering December and January! If you have news, please formulate a suggestion and post it or make a simple pull request here Newsletter draft on Github: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/milestone/3 (Navigate to the latest issue, then to 'Files changes', then 'Edit File') Or drop your news text to our online pad: https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-newsletter-365days We are also looking for volunteers on translations on a regular basis. For example Spanish! Have a good day! ✏
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07:10:18 sebastian Two years back or so I casually mentioned (in one of the higher traffic XMPP MUCs, not sure which) having 5.2.22 (February 5th this year) as **the XMPP day** ... I guess no one picked up the idea, did someone? I'm not having any resources (mostly lacking time) at the moment to prepare something, other than resharing the idea to prepare some kind of website that tells the user what xmpp is, why it might be better than the alternatives and how to get started. Maybe heise.de or similar newsportals or techblogs would pick the story up, there is a lot of fuss about signal and telegram this week... Not sure If anyone is even bothering to promote XMPP. Maybe someone is even working on something? Just thought I'd ask here...
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07:13:27 sebastian (we can also prepare some XMPP federation day on 05.02.2069 🤣️)
07:14:19 Ellenor Malik 5/2 of every year should be xmpp day, after 5/2 this year
07:14:28 sebastian yes, possible
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07:14:54 jonas’ sebastian, that only works in certain date formats unfortunately
07:15:14 sebastian but this year we have the only chance (for the next 100 yrs i guess) to have 5.2.22 🙂 Unless we (we as in, i think XMPP is mostly a europen thing) would accept 2nd of May 5/2/22 as XMPP day 😉
07:15:17 sebastian jonas’, true...
07:15:18 jonas’ 2022-02-05 would be the ISO way of writing that date, I think some crazy locales write it as 2/5/22 …
07:15:38 jonas’ you *are* aware that the XSF is in fact incorporated in the US? ;)
07:15:46 sebastian barely 😉
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07:16:20 jonas’ (but indeed it seems that a lot of public development is currently driven from the EU side of the large pond)
07:17:38 sebastian I think at least some of the important projects are somehow european, right? Conversations, dino, prosody, snikket, Converse.js (I'm not entirely sure, but i think the dev resides in germany, too) ... not sure about the others
07:17:45 sebastian *european based
07:18:19 sebastian yeah... didn't want to start a date format discussion... just asking if someone has maybe had the same thought than me
07:18:38 jonas’ I like the idea fwiw
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07:19:16 jonas’ I have not a terribly great idea what we could do though, let's page some from commsteam like emus.
07:19:33 sebastian it wouldn't even be much work right? just registering a cheap domain (like XMPP-day.live for 2€/yr), put a static website withsome info in the major languages (or languages we can find someone to contribute in) and then email it to blogs
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07:21:04 sebastian i don't know if it would be succesfull, but i just like the story of a XMPP day that is approaching. 5222 is even used by some jabber service as the name or part of their name (https://5222.de/ ) and IPv6 also had it's IPv6 day (altough only 10 yrs later see we really adoption that is worth talking about 😉 )
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07:24:54 sebastian I just let that thought sit here, maybe i could contribute some efforts to translate part of the website, but apparently i do not have the resource to coordinate things at the moment.
07:26:14 jonas’ the "some info" would be interesting to gather
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07:26:49 jonas’ I'm happy to register a domain on short notice as well as provide infrastructure for a static(!) website, but I currently don't have the capacity to create marketing materials
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07:28:38 sebastian https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ <- this is already a good start, but it imho lacks the **why XMPP**
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08:43:53 emus sebastian: Maybe we should just take the publication date (1st of April?). A blog post could be nice
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08:45:05 emus > sebastian escribió: > it wouldn't even be much work right? just registering a cheap domain (like XMPP-day.live for 2€/yr), put a static website withsome info in the major languages (or languages we can find someone to contribute in) and then email it to blogs Lets rather develop on our page. we also are low on ressources
08:46:49 emus > sebastian escribió: > https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ <- this is already a good start, but it imho lacks the **why XMPP** yes, but lets not waste efforts and time in a new domain (we still can do it one day). Rather spend time in what you want to communicate I would say
08:47:07 emus and actually writing content
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08:56:13 sebastian emus, > Maybe we should just take the publication date (1st of April?). A blog post could be nice April 1st? It would allow for more time, but the date would not look interesting ... 1.4.22 or 22-4-1... unlike 5.2.22 🙂 > Lets rather develop on our page. Where the informatoin is hosted later is not so much important as to the message to have a kind of "XMPP appreciation day" > we also are low on ressources Thats the problem. We would need some person(s) who are interested and have time to push it. Also some webdesigner would be nice to make it look good and not just a wall of text. I'm terrible at story telling, so someone who knows how to clearly communicate so the majority of people get the message quick would be an advantage
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08:57:43 emus but isnt the focus on how the date looks a bit of the wrong parameter? Most important is what we will call for at this day and also communicate? And then get it on "paper".
08:58:26 Ge0rG but 5.2.22 is only once in a hundred years!
08:58:43 sebastian Yes.. i'm happy about any promotion about xmpp. My idea was just to combine the date, that looks like the default XMPP port with the message about XMPP
08:58:45 Ge0rG well, twice, if you also consider the 'murican way of writing dates
08:59:02 emus I think if we frame around this day we can ask all projects to write something and we put it on one website we are posting tot the networks
08:59:10 sebastian Ge0rG, true. But there was also only once in a lifetime "IPv6 launch day", sometime in 2012?
08:59:29 Ge0rG sebastian: what's IPv6? ;)
08:59:49 emus sebastian: if you want you can create a pad and collect ideas etc?
08:59:51 sebastian some obscure protocol, most ISPs dont happily support and some peopel deacativate on purpose 😬️
09:00:16 sebastian emus, i can do that yes. Do you have a suggestion which pad to use?
09:00:19 jonas’ we can do a european XMPP day on 5.2.22 and a US XMPP day on 5/2/22 :D
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09:05:00 Ellenor Malik what about a holiday between 0222h utc 5th Feb and 0526h utc 9th Feb?
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09:08:49 emus sebastian: yopad or crytopad - any better recommendations? Actually I would be happy to have a unitfied workspace tool in the XSF
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09:27:13 sebastian emus, https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-day-365days - i just quickly drafted my thoughts. Actually i need to get some day-job work done now, i hope i can spend some more time in the evening, but feel free to comment already or even put your ideas in it... https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-day-365days (CC jonas’ Ge0rG )
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10:41:38 emus sebastian: maybe your should join and announce also:
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10:45:00 sebastian emus, ?
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12:24:04 Guus I wonder if https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#impl-service-ghosts is sensible (something that Kev warned me about earlier, I think). Specifically: I think that the listed 'delivery-related' errors can occur in an IQ stanza response, without actually being indicative of a vanished user.
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12:58:58 flow Guus, this reminds me of the situation with xmpp errors vs xmpp pongs: https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/blob/master/smack-extensions/src/main/java/org/jivesoftware/smackx/ping/PingManager.java#L151-L169
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13:01:22 flow ~~hmm, but the error conditions are differnt~~ ✎
13:01:26 flow hmm, but the error conditions are different ✏
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13:17:57 TheCoffeMaker I can help to organize the xmpp on buenos aires (maybe a virtual conference due to covid)
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14:47:25 debacle jonas’ Why not celebrate XMPP 24 times a day at `hh:52:22` for one precious second? I'm too ISOfied to believe in dd.mm.yyyy or mm/dd/yyyy.
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14:48:31 Ellenor Malik ahhh
14:48:34 Ellenor Malik week-years?
14:48:49 Ellenor Malik Tuesday, 52nd week of every year?
14:48:57 Ellenor Malik tues to sat?
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15:09:32 sebastian Well for a nice Iso date, I'm afraid we have to wait for too long 😁 debacle
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15:23:01 Demian debacle, let just make the calendar `YYYY-MM-DD`
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15:57:10 Neustradamus Time to update: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29921870 - https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/s327wa/prosody_01112_released_cve20220217_fix/
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16:46:07 Sam The last time someone told me "that's not a problem anymore, we use a restricted subset, just use any XML library and that won't happen!" was just a few days ago. I feel vindicated.
16:46:30 MattJ I thought of you ;)
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16:47:12 Sam (not that I'm happy, of course, sorry you got hit by it)
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16:47:50 MattJ This was originally an internal API that wasn't exposed (or even used), and then one day we used it for mod_websocket, assuming it was configured the same way as our usual XMPP stream parser.
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16:48:05 jonas’ "it wasn't"
16:48:11 MattJ Indeed it wasn't
16:48:44 jonas’ Sam, come to the dark side, we have ~cookies~ XML libraries which don't do any of this: https://docs.rs/rxml/
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16:56:21 arc Meeting time?
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16:59:41 jcbrand Now AFAIK
17:00:02 ralphm bangs gavel
17:00:06 ralphm 0. Welcome
17:00:08 ralphm Hi all!
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17:00:26 arc Hello Ralph!
17:00:42 ralphm Long time no see. Hope that everybody had some relaxing holidays and is ready to take on 2022.
17:00:43 jcbrand Howdy
17:00:53 ralphm MattJ around?
17:01:07 ralphm Also, any topics we should discuss today?
17:01:36 ralphm Normally we'd be anxiously awaiting FOSDEM swag to be arranged and so on, but alas.
17:02:18 jcbrand Nothing from me
17:02:19 arc I love to just know the current status of things since last year
17:02:39 MattJ Hey
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17:03:51 ralphm 1. Minute taker
17:04:02 ralphm (hi MattJ)
17:04:42 ralphm I think last minutes were by JC, so MattJ would be up
17:04:47 ralphm 2. Updates
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17:05:20 ralphm arc: anything specific? I don't think much has happened during the holidays. I did see a Tweet go out about GSoC
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17:06:10 arc I mean like the documents that were being worked on, like CoC
17:08:00 arc It's been awhile
17:08:22 ralphm So yes, XEP-0458 has been up for a while now. I don't remember seeing much feedback on it since. Maybe dwd has gotten some. I think we could think about issuing last-call on it.
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17:09:20 ralphm jcbrand, MattJ what do you think?
17:09:35 MattJ Yep, sounds good to me. I can't remember where we left it.
17:09:46 MattJ I've been assuming it's in force :)
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17:10:37 jcbrand ~~I'm relatively meh on CoCs. But if people think it's necessary then sure. Dunno how we survived so this time without one~~ ✎
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17:10:51 jcbrand I'm relatively meh on CoCs. But if people think it's necessary then sure. Dunno how we survived all this time without one ✏
17:10:54 jonas’ (there has been context to that document)
17:10:58 jonas’ (it's very useful to have)
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17:11:12 jonas’ (I already used it to enforce in operators@, where we put it in place pre-emptively)
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17:12:05 ralphm I think if we do not act whichever way this week it will expire, no?
17:12:27 jonas’ … expire?
17:12:28 ralphm Oh wait it is already > 6 months
17:12:32 jcbrand ~~Doesn't the fact that you used it preemptively show the an official isn't necessary?~~ ✎
17:12:33 jonas’ defer, if anything
17:12:40 ralphm yes, I meant that
17:12:45 jcbrand Doesn't the fact that you used it preemptively show the an official one isn't necessary? ✏
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17:12:50 jonas’ jcbrand, well, it would be better to have something to point at which doesn't have a huge red EXPERIMENTAL on it :)
17:13:16 jonas’ violators are generally not easy-going with such things
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17:13:53 ralphm Well of course the absence of such a thing doesn't mean we cannot act, and I think that's what jcbrand is getting at
17:13:59 jcbrand Yes
17:14:13 jonas’ right, but the absence of such a thing means that I, for instance, would not be available for moderation tasks.
17:14:20 jcbrand And the existence of one sometimes gets used for witch hunts
17:14:26 jonas’ I want a code I can operate based on, because otherwise all I am going to get is haggling with the perpetrators whether something was ok or not.
17:14:37 MattJ Right, but I did act, and it was a mess, and that's why although I am also "meh" on CoCs in general, I am in favour of this document existing and getting finalized
17:14:47 jcbrand Ok
17:15:04 MattJ I'd rather a world where such things weren't needed, but that's not the world we live in
17:15:35 MattJ and that became too apparent to me last year, in an XSF discussion channel
17:16:51 ralphm Ok then. So I guess we should reinvite people to comment on this experimental doc and then find a time to issue a last-call towards Active.
17:16:56 arc In fact it's increasingly becoming a world where we need this
17:17:12 ralphm At which point Board will evaluate and Make It So™ or not.
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17:17:38 ralphm MattJ could you initiate this?
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17:18:10 jonas’ starting an LC is the editor's task, isn't it?
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17:18:35 MattJ I'm currently metaphorically snowed under, but I'm working my way to the surface... I can make a note for myself but probably don't expect anything from me before Feb
17:18:35 jcbrand Sounds like ralphm wants more discussion before LC
17:18:57 jonas’ why not use the LC as venue for discussion?
17:19:15 ralphm Well, isn't it a bit weird to have an experimental document go virtually undiscussed since publication and then say "you now have 14 days"
17:19:16 jonas’ ~~but you could also kindly ask the editor to informally call for discussion on members@ … :)~~ ✎
17:19:20 jonas’ but you could also kindly ask the editor to informally call for discussion on members@ and/or standards@ … :) ✏
17:19:31 jonas’ though it would feel redundant to me
17:19:32 ralphm But hey, I have no problem with issuing the LC right away
17:19:35 jonas’ if an LC is closely to follow
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17:20:37 dwd Give me a week to hunt through email etc and check if I meant to add some things, please?
17:20:51 jonas’ that's a good reason not to LC right away :)
17:20:53 jcbrand About it being experimental, you can tell people they're being experimentally reprimanded 😆
17:21:16 jonas’ jcbrand, I get the impression you never moderated a medium to large pseudonymous chat community ;)
17:21:27 ralphm From XEP-0001: An Experimental (or Deferred) XEP may be proposed to the Approving Body for advancement to Stable (Standards Track XEPs) or Active (Historical, Informational, and Procedural XEPs). This can be requested from the Approving Body on the Standards list by, or in collaboration with, the XEP author. In case the XEP has been abandoned by its author(s), any other individual can propose advancement in their stead. The Approving Body will then require a Document Shepherd to take on responsibilities on behalf of the XEP author during the proposal and approval processes. The Approving Body must agree that the XEP is ready to be considered for advancement. Once the Approving Body so agrees, it shall instruct the XMPP Extensions Editor to (1) change the status of the XEP from Experimental (or Deferred) to Proposed and (2) issue a Last Call for open discussion on the Standards list. The Last Call shall expire not less than fourteen (14) days after the date of issue.
17:21:35 jcbrand You'd be wrong jonas
17:21:41 ralphm so basically we need to tell jonas’ to have it progress
17:21:48 jonas’ jcbrand, alright
17:22:08 jonas’ ralphm, let's give dwd the chance to figure things out tho
17:22:13 ralphm of course
17:22:29 ralphm dwd: just give us The Sign when you are ready
17:22:55 ralphm Anything else?
17:22:56 jcbrand jonas’: thinking about my own experience, yes having rules helps a lot
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17:23:00 dwd jcbrand, I think CoC's are one of those things that you can get away without for ages until you need them, when you suddenly desperately need them.
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17:24:34 ralphm 3. AOB
17:24:35 ralphm ?
17:24:39 jonas’ [gotta run, dinnertime]
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17:25:08 Sam ralphm: I have aob or for next time
17:25:27 MattJ Not really. There's been discussion about something to replace FOSDEM/summit this year, but that's not really a board matter.
17:25:38 ralphm No, it doesn't work that way. Either you have an AOB now, or an agenda item for next time :D
17:25:46 Sam I sent an email to board@ about fiscal hosting a bit ago, please review or I can send again
17:25:55 ralphm MattJ: disagree a bit, and was thinking the same thing
17:26:07 arc We should put that on the agenda for next week
17:26:11 ralphm Sam: noted
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17:26:43 ralphm 4. Date of Next
17:26:45 ralphm +1W
17:26:50 ralphm 5. Close
17:26:52 jcbrand I'd love an in-person summit
17:26:52 ralphm Thanks all!
17:26:56 ralphm bangs gavel
17:26:59 jcbrand Thanks ralphm
17:27:14 ralphm jcbrand: totally
17:27:25 ralphm I've been having this stuff on my attic for about 2 years now
17:28:35 MattJ ralphm, which part do you disagree with slightly? Doing something, or whether it's a board matter?
17:28:45 arc Not with Omicron surging.
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17:30:27 jcbrand I'd be fine with an in-person summit of the willing
17:30:54 jcbrand Rest could connect remotely
17:31:57 MattJ I think it's impractical to have a normal summit. Between the unwilling and the willing-but-unable/impractical-due-to-restrictions it would probably be two people in a room.
17:32:33 arc Plus there's the organizational responsibility of the xsf
17:32:37 dwd I'll have a summit with myself.
17:32:54 dwd I'll mutter to myself in a corner then get hammered on Belgian beer.
17:32:58 ralphm MattJ: not being a Board matter. It will probably require a bunch more funding that we usually alot to the Summit
17:33:03 ralphm allot
17:33:04 MattJ dwd, normal summit then
17:33:16 dwd MattJ, Standard standrds work.
17:33:46 Zash Can confirm, having attended IETF
17:34:15 dwd Zash, If you remember an IETF you weren't there.
17:34:16 ralphm I don't see a Summit happening this year around virtual FOSDEM, but maybe we can find a time in the spring?
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17:36:02 jcbrand Yeah, we could wait for spring/summer when cases are lower
17:36:04 jonas’ maybe keep our eyes and ears open for other events we could piggy-back on
17:36:16 jonas’ I don't suppose many of you are aiming for the OpenInfra Summit in Berlin this year
17:36:19 Daniel Traditionally (I hate that there is already a traditionally with the pandemic) summers have been quiter. So late-ish summer after we all got the omikron booster might be the best option for a on person event
17:36:27 Zash Brussels in summer instead of Brussels in slush? That might be nice
17:37:02 Daniel > maybe keep our eyes and ears open for other events we could piggy-back on I'd be surprised to see any larger in person events happening this year
17:37:31 jonas’ OpenInfra is intended to be in person, but also in july (or was it june?) and with just 1k people.
17:37:47 jonas’ I don't find that super unrealistic looking at historic case data for that month
17:38:31 dwd What might work is to drive a series of smaller online conferences driving at specific goals.
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17:38:44 jonas’ online-sprints
17:38:52 ralphm Daniel: really? PyCon in the US seems to be happening. I think that everything is starting up again soon.
17:39:17 dwd I've heard of some in-person confs which have switched from two days in person to a week of 2-hour lunchtime online conferences, and it seems to work really well.
17:39:43 jcbrand Meh
17:39:57 jcbrand Lunchtime is sacred
17:39:59 ralphm I don't particularly care about online events. At all.
17:40:03 dwd ralphm, Unless vaccination starts occuring globally, I think we're looking at another variant soon enough.
17:40:04 jcbrand Me neither
17:40:29 dwd No, I'm not that excited by online events either. But where the option is nothing at all...
17:40:32 jcbrand Variants will happen regardless of vaccination
17:40:38 jcbrand Just like with flu
17:40:44 Daniel ralphm: dunno. I think the problem with larger events is not that there is never a time period where case numbers are lower. But the uncertainty. And large events need to be planned
17:40:55 ralphm dwd: I'm sure. I am done with not living, though.
17:41:32 jcbrand How many people at a summit? 30?
17:41:37 jcbrand Not that huge
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17:42:17 dwd jcbrand, No, but ~nobody travels just for a summit.
17:42:33 dwd jcbrand, I mean, Kev does. But I don't think anyone else.
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17:42:43 jcbrand Yes, there's also the drinking
17:42:51 dwd :-D
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17:43:21 dwd I've described the XSF in various venues as a drinking club with a standards problem, indeed.
17:43:27 jonas’ ew
17:43:32 jonas’ please don't include me in that description
17:43:47 dwd jonas’, Implicated by association. :-P
17:44:03 ralphm One only has a standards problem when there are not enough of them, right?
17:44:04 jonas’ I'm gonna put "strict non-alcohol drinker" on my next application :P
17:44:05 Zash Ribs, Beer and Standards
17:44:55 dwd jonas’, We've had plenty of high-profile non-drinkers - you, Kev, Remko - the problem is we also have the rest of us, and we make up your shortfall.
17:45:35 jcbrand Actually, I don't like drinking too much at confs, I hate hangovers and don't like the cognitive impairment the next day, but I like meeting socially and chatting with people and a bit of alcohol really helps to take the edge off
17:46:01 Ellenor Malik slushels
17:46:11 jcbrand Gotta maintain the balmer ratio or whatever it's called
17:46:21 dwd jcbrand, Ah, the Balmer Peak.
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17:46:29 jcbrand That's it
17:46:49 dwd https://xkcd.com/323/
17:47:46 jcbrand Also, I live in wine region, it's my social duty to support local businesses
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17:56:36 pep. TIL https://interoperability.news/about/
17:56:47 pep. Maybe the XSF wants to get in?
17:56:57 pep. There's already Matrix
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18:00:21 MattJ +1
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18:09:15 moparisthebest wine region ? I too use linux
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18:10:05 Ellenor Malik moparisthebest: non
18:10:17 Ellenor Malik pays du vin
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18:17:29 ralphm Great news ED MattJ
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18:50:44 emus > ralphm escribió: > I don't see a Summit happening this year around virtual FOSDEM, but maybe we can find a time in the spring? no, lets not make a counter-party > dwd escribió: > I've heard of some in-person confs which have switched from two days in person to a week of 2-hour lunchtime online conferences, and it seems to work really well. really nice
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20:59:49 jonas’ dwd, reassuring :)
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22:19:22 jcbrand moparisthebest: I use arch btw
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22:20:24 jcbrand Just kidding, Ubuntu 😁
22:20:47 moparisthebest jcbrand, https://www.moparisthebest.com/images/i-only-use-arch-linux.png for real though :D
22:21:17 jcbrand 😆
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