XSF Discussion - 2022-01-13

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  153. emus

    Good morning to whom it suits! ☺ Its almost mid of January already - time flies! Anyway, its the perfect time to add your news and input to the XMPP Newsletter, covering December and January! If you have news, please formulate a suggestion and post it or make a simple pull request here Newsletter draft on Github: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/milestone/3 (Navigate to the latest issue, then to 'Files changes', then 'Edit File') Or drop your news text to our online pad: https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-newsletter-365days Have a good day! We are also looking for volunteers on translations on a regular basis. For example Spanish!

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  158. emus

    Good morning to whom it suits! ☺ Its almost mid of January already - time flies! Anyway, its the perfect time to add your news and input to the XMPP Newsletter, covering December and January! If you have news, please formulate a suggestion and post it or make a simple pull request here Newsletter draft on Github: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/milestone/3 (Navigate to the latest issue, then to 'Files changes', then 'Edit File') Or drop your news text to our online pad: https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-newsletter-365days We are also looking for volunteers on translations on a regular basis. For example Spanish! Have a good day!

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  173. sebastian

    Two years back or so I casually mentioned (in one of the higher traffic XMPP MUCs, not sure which) having 5.2.22 (February 5th this year) as **the XMPP day** ... I guess no one picked up the idea, did someone? I'm not having any resources (mostly lacking time) at the moment to prepare something, other than resharing the idea to prepare some kind of website that tells the user what xmpp is, why it might be better than the alternatives and how to get started. Maybe heise.de or similar newsportals or techblogs would pick the story up, there is a lot of fuss about signal and telegram this week... Not sure If anyone is even bothering to promote XMPP. Maybe someone is even working on something? Just thought I'd ask here...

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  175. sebastian

    (we can also prepare some XMPP federation day on 05.02.2069 🤣️)

  176. Ellenor Malik

    5/2 of every year should be xmpp day, after 5/2 this year

  177. sebastian

    yes, possible

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  179. jonas’

    sebastian, that only works in certain date formats unfortunately

  180. sebastian

    but this year we have the only chance (for the next 100 yrs i guess) to have 5.2.22 🙂 Unless we (we as in, i think XMPP is mostly a europen thing) would accept 2nd of May 5/2/22 as XMPP day 😉

  181. sebastian

    jonas’, true...

  182. jonas’

    2022-02-05 would be the ISO way of writing that date, I think some crazy locales write it as 2/5/22 …

  183. jonas’

    you *are* aware that the XSF is in fact incorporated in the US? ;)

  184. sebastian

    barely 😉

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  187. jonas’

    (but indeed it seems that a lot of public development is currently driven from the EU side of the large pond)

  188. sebastian

    I think at least some of the important projects are somehow european, right? Conversations, dino, prosody, snikket, Converse.js (I'm not entirely sure, but i think the dev resides in germany, too) ... not sure about the others

  189. sebastian

    *european based

  190. sebastian

    yeah... didn't want to start a date format discussion... just asking if someone has maybe had the same thought than me

  191. jonas’

    I like the idea fwiw

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  194. jonas’

    I have not a terribly great idea what we could do though, let's page some from commsteam like emus.

  195. sebastian

    it wouldn't even be much work right? just registering a cheap domain (like XMPP-day.live for 2€/yr), put a static website withsome info in the major languages (or languages we can find someone to contribute in) and then email it to blogs

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  198. sebastian

    i don't know if it would be succesfull, but i just like the story of a XMPP day that is approaching. 5222 is even used by some jabber service as the name or part of their name (https://5222.de/ ) and IPv6 also had it's IPv6 day (altough only 10 yrs later see we really adoption that is worth talking about 😉 )

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  202. sebastian

    I just let that thought sit here, maybe i could contribute some efforts to translate part of the website, but apparently i do not have the resource to coordinate things at the moment.

  203. jonas’

    the "some info" would be interesting to gather

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  205. jonas’

    I'm happy to register a domain on short notice as well as provide infrastructure for a static(!) website, but I currently don't have the capacity to create marketing materials

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  209. sebastian

    https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ <- this is already a good start, but it imho lacks the **why XMPP**

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  251. emus

    sebastian: Maybe we should just take the publication date (1st of April?). A blog post could be nice

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  253. emus

    > sebastian escribió: > it wouldn't even be much work right? just registering a cheap domain (like XMPP-day.live for 2€/yr), put a static website withsome info in the major languages (or languages we can find someone to contribute in) and then email it to blogs Lets rather develop on our page. we also are low on ressources

  254. emus

    > sebastian escribió: > https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ <- this is already a good start, but it imho lacks the **why XMPP** yes, but lets not waste efforts and time in a new domain (we still can do it one day). Rather spend time in what you want to communicate I would say

  255. emus

    and actually writing content

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  262. sebastian

    emus, > Maybe we should just take the publication date (1st of April?). A blog post could be nice April 1st? It would allow for more time, but the date would not look interesting ... 1.4.22 or 22-4-1... unlike 5.2.22 🙂 > Lets rather develop on our page. Where the informatoin is hosted later is not so much important as to the message to have a kind of "XMPP appreciation day" > we also are low on ressources Thats the problem. We would need some person(s) who are interested and have time to push it. Also some webdesigner would be nice to make it look good and not just a wall of text. I'm terrible at story telling, so someone who knows how to clearly communicate so the majority of people get the message quick would be an advantage

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  264. emus

    but isnt the focus on how the date looks a bit of the wrong parameter? Most important is what we will call for at this day and also communicate? And then get it on "paper".

  265. Ge0rG

    but 5.2.22 is only once in a hundred years!

  266. sebastian

    Yes.. i'm happy about any promotion about xmpp. My idea was just to combine the date, that looks like the default XMPP port with the message about XMPP

  267. Ge0rG

    well, twice, if you also consider the 'murican way of writing dates

  268. emus

    I think if we frame around this day we can ask all projects to write something and we put it on one website we are posting tot the networks

  269. sebastian

    Ge0rG, true. But there was also only once in a lifetime "IPv6 launch day", sometime in 2012?

  270. Ge0rG

    sebastian: what's IPv6? ;)

  271. emus

    sebastian: if you want you can create a pad and collect ideas etc?

  272. sebastian

    some obscure protocol, most ISPs dont happily support and some peopel deacativate on purpose 😬️

  273. sebastian

    emus, i can do that yes. Do you have a suggestion which pad to use?

  274. jonas’

    we can do a european XMPP day on 5.2.22 and a US XMPP day on 5/2/22 :D

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  277. Ellenor Malik

    what about a holiday between 0222h utc 5th Feb and 0526h utc 9th Feb?

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  281. emus

    sebastian: yopad or crytopad - any better recommendations? Actually I would be happy to have a unitfied workspace tool in the XSF

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  295. sebastian

    emus, https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-day-365days - i just quickly drafted my thoughts. Actually i need to get some day-job work done now, i hope i can spend some more time in the evening, but feel free to comment already or even put your ideas in it... https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-day-365days (CC jonas’ Ge0rG )

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  331. emus

    sebastian: maybe your should join and announce also:

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  335. sebastian

    emus, ?

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  392. Guus

    I wonder if https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#impl-service-ghosts is sensible (something that Kev warned me about earlier, I think). Specifically: I think that the listed 'delivery-related' errors can occur in an IQ stanza response, without actually being indicative of a vanished user.

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  411. flow

    Guus, this reminds me of the situation with xmpp errors vs xmpp pongs: https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/blob/master/smack-extensions/src/main/java/org/jivesoftware/smackx/ping/PingManager.java#L151-L169

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  415. flow

    hmm, but the error conditions are differnt

  416. flow

    hmm, but the error conditions are different

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  429. TheCoffeMaker

    I can help to organize the xmpp on buenos aires (maybe a virtual conference due to covid)

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  492. debacle

    jonas’ Why not celebrate XMPP 24 times a day at `hh:52:22` for one precious second? I'm too ISOfied to believe in dd.mm.yyyy or mm/dd/yyyy.

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  494. Ellenor Malik


  495. Ellenor Malik


  496. Ellenor Malik

    Tuesday, 52nd week of every year?

  497. Ellenor Malik

    tues to sat?

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  513. sebastian

    Well for a nice Iso date, I'm afraid we have to wait for too long 😁 debacle

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  525. Demian

    debacle, let just make the calendar `YYYY-MM-DD`

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  549. Neustradamus

    Time to update: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29921870 - https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/s327wa/prosody_01112_released_cve20220217_fix/

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  576. Sam

    The last time someone told me "that's not a problem anymore, we use a restricted subset, just use any XML library and that won't happen!" was just a few days ago. I feel vindicated.

  577. MattJ

    I thought of you ;)

  578. intosi has left

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  580. Sam

    (not that I'm happy, of course, sorry you got hit by it)

  581. Andrzej has joined

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  584. MattJ

    This was originally an internal API that wasn't exposed (or even used), and then one day we used it for mod_websocket, assuming it was configured the same way as our usual XMPP stream parser.

  585. TheCoffeMaker has joined

  586. jonas’

    "it wasn't"

  587. MattJ

    Indeed it wasn't

  588. jonas’

    Sam, come to the dark side, we have ~cookies~ XML libraries which don't do any of this: https://docs.rs/rxml/

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  599. arc

    Meeting time?

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  604. jcbrand

    Now AFAIK

  605. ralphm bangs gavel

  606. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  607. ralphm

    Hi all!

  608. arc has left

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  610. arc

    Hello Ralph!

  611. ralphm

    Long time no see. Hope that everybody had some relaxing holidays and is ready to take on 2022.

  612. jcbrand


  613. ralphm

    MattJ around?

  614. ralphm

    Also, any topics we should discuss today?

  615. ralphm

    Normally we'd be anxiously awaiting FOSDEM swag to be arranged and so on, but alas.

  616. jcbrand

    Nothing from me

  617. arc

    I love to just know the current status of things since last year

  618. MattJ


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  621. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  622. ralphm

    (hi MattJ)

  623. ralphm

    I think last minutes were by JC, so MattJ would be up

  624. ralphm

    2. Updates

  625. paul has left

  626. ralphm

    arc: anything specific? I don't think much has happened during the holidays. I did see a Tweet go out about GSoC

  627. jgart has joined

  628. arc

    I mean like the documents that were being worked on, like CoC

  629. arc

    It's been awhile

  630. ralphm

    So yes, XEP-0458 has been up for a while now. I don't remember seeing much feedback on it since. Maybe dwd has gotten some. I think we could think about issuing last-call on it.

  631. paul has joined

  632. ralphm

    jcbrand, MattJ what do you think?

  633. MattJ

    Yep, sounds good to me. I can't remember where we left it.

  634. MattJ

    I've been assuming it's in force :)

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  637. jcbrand

    I'm relatively meh on CoCs. But if people think it's necessary then sure. Dunno how we survived so this time without one

  638. jl4 has left

  639. jcbrand

    I'm relatively meh on CoCs. But if people think it's necessary then sure. Dunno how we survived all this time without one

  640. jonas’

    (there has been context to that document)

  641. jonas’

    (it's very useful to have)

  642. TheCoffeMaker has left

  643. jonas’

    (I already used it to enforce in operators@, where we put it in place pre-emptively)

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  647. ralphm

    I think if we do not act whichever way this week it will expire, no?

  648. jonas’

    … expire?

  649. ralphm

    Oh wait it is already > 6 months

  650. jcbrand

    Doesn't the fact that you used it preemptively show the an official isn't necessary?

  651. jonas’

    defer, if anything

  652. ralphm

    yes, I meant that

  653. jcbrand

    Doesn't the fact that you used it preemptively show the an official one isn't necessary?

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  655. jonas’

    jcbrand, well, it would be better to have something to point at which doesn't have a huge red EXPERIMENTAL on it :)

  656. jonas’

    violators are generally not easy-going with such things

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  662. ralphm

    Well of course the absence of such a thing doesn't mean we cannot act, and I think that's what jcbrand is getting at

  663. jcbrand


  664. jonas’

    right, but the absence of such a thing means that I, for instance, would not be available for moderation tasks.

  665. jcbrand

    And the existence of one sometimes gets used for witch hunts

  666. jonas’

    I want a code I can operate based on, because otherwise all I am going to get is haggling with the perpetrators whether something was ok or not.

  667. MattJ

    Right, but I did act, and it was a mess, and that's why although I am also "meh" on CoCs in general, I am in favour of this document existing and getting finalized

  668. jcbrand


  669. MattJ

    I'd rather a world where such things weren't needed, but that's not the world we live in

  670. MattJ

    and that became too apparent to me last year, in an XSF discussion channel

  671. ralphm

    Ok then. So I guess we should reinvite people to comment on this experimental doc and then find a time to issue a last-call towards Active.

  672. arc

    In fact it's increasingly becoming a world where we need this

  673. ralphm

    At which point Board will evaluate and Make It So™ or not.

  674. lovetox has joined

  675. ralphm

    MattJ could you initiate this?

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  679. jonas’

    starting an LC is the editor's task, isn't it?

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  681. MattJ

    I'm currently metaphorically snowed under, but I'm working my way to the surface... I can make a note for myself but probably don't expect anything from me before Feb

  682. jcbrand

    Sounds like ralphm wants more discussion before LC

  683. jonas’

    why not use the LC as venue for discussion?

  684. ralphm

    Well, isn't it a bit weird to have an experimental document go virtually undiscussed since publication and then say "you now have 14 days"

  685. jonas’

    but you could also kindly ask the editor to informally call for discussion on members@ … :)

  686. jonas’

    but you could also kindly ask the editor to informally call for discussion on members@ and/or standards@ … :)

  687. jonas’

    though it would feel redundant to me

  688. ralphm

    But hey, I have no problem with issuing the LC right away

  689. jonas’

    if an LC is closely to follow

  690. xnamed has left

  691. dwd

    Give me a week to hunt through email etc and check if I meant to add some things, please?

  692. jonas’

    that's a good reason not to LC right away :)

  693. jcbrand

    About it being experimental, you can tell people they're being experimentally reprimanded 😆

  694. jonas’

    jcbrand, I get the impression you never moderated a medium to large pseudonymous chat community ;)

  695. ralphm

    From XEP-0001: An Experimental (or Deferred) XEP may be proposed to the Approving Body for advancement to Stable (Standards Track XEPs) or Active (Historical, Informational, and Procedural XEPs). This can be requested from the Approving Body on the Standards list by, or in collaboration with, the XEP author. In case the XEP has been abandoned by its author(s), any other individual can propose advancement in their stead. The Approving Body will then require a Document Shepherd to take on responsibilities on behalf of the XEP author during the proposal and approval processes. The Approving Body must agree that the XEP is ready to be considered for advancement. Once the Approving Body so agrees, it shall instruct the XMPP Extensions Editor to (1) change the status of the XEP from Experimental (or Deferred) to Proposed and (2) issue a Last Call for open discussion on the Standards list. The Last Call shall expire not less than fourteen (14) days after the date of issue.

  696. jcbrand

    You'd be wrong jonas

  697. ralphm

    so basically we need to tell jonas’ to have it progress

  698. jonas’

    jcbrand, alright

  699. jonas’

    ralphm, let's give dwd the chance to figure things out tho

  700. ralphm

    of course

  701. ralphm

    dwd: just give us The Sign when you are ready

  702. ralphm

    Anything else?

  703. jcbrand

    jonas’: thinking about my own experience, yes having rules helps a lot

  704. bung has left

  705. dwd

    jcbrand, I think CoC's are one of those things that you can get away without for ages until you need them, when you suddenly desperately need them.

  706. TheCoffeMaker has left

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  708. ralphm

    3. AOB

  709. ralphm


  710. jonas’

    [gotta run, dinnertime]

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  712. Sam

    ralphm: I have aob or for next time

  713. MattJ

    Not really. There's been discussion about something to replace FOSDEM/summit this year, but that's not really a board matter.

  714. ralphm

    No, it doesn't work that way. Either you have an AOB now, or an agenda item for next time :D

  715. Sam

    I sent an email to board@ about fiscal hosting a bit ago, please review or I can send again

  716. ralphm

    MattJ: disagree a bit, and was thinking the same thing

  717. arc

    We should put that on the agenda for next week

  718. ralphm

    Sam: noted

  719. atomicwatch has joined

  720. ralphm

    4. Date of Next

  721. ralphm


  722. ralphm

    5. Close

  723. jcbrand

    I'd love an in-person summit

  724. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  725. ralphm bangs gavel

  726. jcbrand

    Thanks ralphm

  727. ralphm

    jcbrand: totally

  728. ralphm

    I've been having this stuff on my attic for about 2 years now

  729. MattJ

    ralphm, which part do you disagree with slightly? Doing something, or whether it's a board matter?

  730. arc

    Not with Omicron surging.

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  733. jcbrand

    I'd be fine with an in-person summit of the willing

  734. jcbrand

    Rest could connect remotely

  735. MattJ

    I think it's impractical to have a normal summit. Between the unwilling and the willing-but-unable/impractical-due-to-restrictions it would probably be two people in a room.

  736. arc

    Plus there's the organizational responsibility of the xsf

  737. dwd

    I'll have a summit with myself.

  738. dwd

    I'll mutter to myself in a corner then get hammered on Belgian beer.

  739. ralphm

    MattJ: not being a Board matter. It will probably require a bunch more funding that we usually alot to the Summit

  740. ralphm


  741. MattJ

    dwd, normal summit then

  742. dwd

    MattJ, Standard standrds work.

  743. Zash

    Can confirm, having attended IETF

  744. dwd

    Zash, If you remember an IETF you weren't there.

  745. ralphm

    I don't see a Summit happening this year around virtual FOSDEM, but maybe we can find a time in the spring?

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  758. jcbrand

    Yeah, we could wait for spring/summer when cases are lower

  759. jonas’

    maybe keep our eyes and ears open for other events we could piggy-back on

  760. jonas’

    I don't suppose many of you are aiming for the OpenInfra Summit in Berlin this year

  761. Daniel

    Traditionally (I hate that there is already a traditionally with the pandemic) summers have been quiter. So late-ish summer after we all got the omikron booster might be the best option for a on person event

  762. Zash

    Brussels in summer instead of Brussels in slush? That might be nice

  763. Daniel

    > maybe keep our eyes and ears open for other events we could piggy-back on I'd be surprised to see any larger in person events happening this year

  764. jonas’

    OpenInfra is intended to be in person, but also in july (or was it june?) and with just 1k people.

  765. jonas’

    I don't find that super unrealistic looking at historic case data for that month

  766. dwd

    What might work is to drive a series of smaller online conferences driving at specific goals.

  767. stp has joined

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  769. jonas’


  770. ralphm

    Daniel: really? PyCon in the US seems to be happening. I think that everything is starting up again soon.

  771. dwd

    I've heard of some in-person confs which have switched from two days in person to a week of 2-hour lunchtime online conferences, and it seems to work really well.

  772. jcbrand


  773. jcbrand

    Lunchtime is sacred

  774. ralphm

    I don't particularly care about online events. At all.

  775. dwd

    ralphm, Unless vaccination starts occuring globally, I think we're looking at another variant soon enough.

  776. jcbrand

    Me neither

  777. dwd

    No, I'm not that excited by online events either. But where the option is nothing at all...

  778. jcbrand

    Variants will happen regardless of vaccination

  779. jcbrand

    Just like with flu

  780. Daniel

    ralphm: dunno. I think the problem with larger events is not that there is never a time period where case numbers are lower. But the uncertainty. And large events need to be planned

  781. ralphm

    dwd: I'm sure. I am done with not living, though.

  782. jcbrand

    How many people at a summit? 30?

  783. jcbrand

    Not that huge

  784. sonny has left

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  786. dwd

    jcbrand, No, but ~nobody travels just for a summit.

  787. dwd

    jcbrand, I mean, Kev does. But I don't think anyone else.

  788. sonny has left

  789. jcbrand

    Yes, there's also the drinking

  790. dwd


  791. sonny has joined

  792. dwd

    I've described the XSF in various venues as a drinking club with a standards problem, indeed.

  793. jonas’


  794. jonas’

    please don't include me in that description

  795. dwd

    jonas’, Implicated by association. :-P

  796. ralphm

    One only has a standards problem when there are not enough of them, right?

  797. jonas’

    I'm gonna put "strict non-alcohol drinker" on my next application :P

  798. Zash

    Ribs, Beer and Standards

  799. dwd

    jonas’, We've had plenty of high-profile non-drinkers - you, Kev, Remko - the problem is we also have the rest of us, and we make up your shortfall.

  800. jcbrand

    Actually, I don't like drinking too much at confs, I hate hangovers and don't like the cognitive impairment the next day, but I like meeting socially and chatting with people and a bit of alcohol really helps to take the edge off

  801. Ellenor Malik


  802. jcbrand

    Gotta maintain the balmer ratio or whatever it's called

  803. dwd

    jcbrand, Ah, the Balmer Peak.

  804. stp has left

  805. jcbrand

    That's it

  806. dwd


  807. jcbrand

    Also, I live in wine region, it's my social duty to support local businesses

  808. stp has joined

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  810. pep.

    TIL https://interoperability.news/about/

  811. pep.

    Maybe the XSF wants to get in?

  812. pep.

    There's already Matrix

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  818. MattJ


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  830. moparisthebest

    wine region ? I too use linux

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  837. Ellenor Malik

    moparisthebest: non

  838. Ellenor Malik

    pays du vin

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  842. ralphm

    Great news ED MattJ

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  864. emus

    > ralphm escribió: > I don't see a Summit happening this year around virtual FOSDEM, but maybe we can find a time in the spring? no, lets not make a counter-party > dwd escribió: > I've heard of some in-person confs which have switched from two days in person to a week of 2-hour lunchtime online conferences, and it seems to work really well. really nice

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  950. jonas’

    dwd, reassuring :)

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  996. jcbrand

    moparisthebest: I use arch btw

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  998. jcbrand

    Just kidding, Ubuntu 😁

  999. moparisthebest

    jcbrand, https://www.moparisthebest.com/images/i-only-use-arch-linux.png for real though :D

  1000. jcbrand


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