XSF Discussion - 2022-01-19


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  169. kurisu > https://noplacetohide.org.uk/ this must be ironi
  170. kurisu > https://noplacetohide.org.uk/ this must be irony
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  172. wgreenhouse > this must be irony nah, just a long standing ambition of .gov.uk
  173. wgreenhouse to have their decryption key in all software used by their subjects
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  175. kurisu I mean you do this by bribing and subjugating developers not by some stupid website It's laughable, who on earth is going to even read? Devs that care about privacy won't listen to such nonsense (because no one with half a brain will), companies willing to cooperate don't need an ethical reason to sell out, in fact they'd sell out even if it actively hurt le children
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  177. kurisu I mean you do this by bribing and subjugating developers not by some stupid website It's laughable, who on earth is going to even read this? Devs that care about privacy won't listen to such nonsense (because no one with half a brain will), companies willing to cooperate don't need an ethical reason to sell out, in fact they'd sell out even if it actively hurt le children
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  179. forkwork The site is not official
  180. forkwork End of story
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  182. forkwork > wgreenhouse wrote: > nah, just a long standing ambition of .gov.uk org.uk
  183. forkwork Open your eyes, stop blindly "trust" unreliable peers.
  184. wgreenhouse forkwork: the site is a Home Office-sponsored initiative
  185. forkwork Can you confirm from the Home Office?
  186. forkwork If not, the above is in full power.
  187. forkwork The Internet is full of disinfo.
  188. kurisu I thought this was more of a Russian thing
  189. kurisu https://draugr.de/upload/00f530bb49b4e1685114d28f8bb6fb44b2fcbc2f/NRj0iDvLqyP7D6bNcUdmsrraK9FruYVZ7T8KiWEz/Screenshot_2022-01-19_at_05-14-13_Bellingcat___bellingcat_.png
  190. forkwork Exactly why I am extremely cautious
  191. forkwork Those Russians
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  195. wgreenhouse forkwork: > [No Place to Hide] is made up of a coalition of "child safety campaigners, charities, tech experts and survivors of child sex abuse" brought together by communications company M&C Saatchi and *backed by the Home Office.* https://www.bbc.com/news/59964656
  196. wgreenhouse it's not a secret
  197. forkwork Regardless it is not gov't-run, I must note
  198. forkwork Compare whois records: https://whois.domaintools.com/noplacetohide.org.uk https://whois.domaintools.com/gov.uk
  199. wgreenhouse it's government astroturf through private orgs convened by the government. you're a useful idiot if this fools you
  200. wgreenhouse literally an ad agency paid by the Home Office
  201. forkwork Harsh
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  203. wgreenhouse it's also conveniently coming out just as parliament debates the same issue
  204. forkwork You are an idiot if you think words equal actual implementation or that even going to work
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  206. forkwork I have heard far wider insanities from far more dangerous governments in my life to see that
  207. wgreenhouse I didn't say it would be implemented. I said it's the longstanding publicly stated goal of the UK government
  208. forkwork The government may or may not change
  209. forkwork Unlike in some countries where "not" is permanent.
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  211. wgreenhouse it's the longstanding goal of the parts of the UK government that don't change :)
  212. forkwork "Parts"
  213. wgreenhouse namely the permanent civil service
  214. wgreenhouse and both major parties
  215. forkwork Parts ;)
  216. wgreenhouse no real dispute about surveillance powers
  217. forkwork Aren't there more than 2 parties?
  218. wgreenhouse forkwork: none that will win power, thanks to first past the post
  219. wgreenhouse lib dems and greens are far smaller
  220. forkwork Huh
  221. forkwork Well, you gave tools to enlarge the smaller
  222. forkwork Well, you have tools to enlarge the smaller
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  224. forkwork It is delayed to 2023, the article said, but might need to be paid some attention
  225. wgreenhouse > It is delayed to 2023, the article said, but might need to be paid some attention you think? 🤣
  226. forkwork I saw how with a similar pretext, a large-scale Orwell-like system was deployed
  227. wgreenhouse thanks for your permission
  228. forkwork You are inexperienced.
  229. wgreenhouse I don't have much hope for UK politics, other than that Scotland will leave. the rest of the place is screwed for a generation at least by Brexit, xenophobia, and militarism.
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  231. wgreenhouse they will get their Orwellian system
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  233. forkwork You haven't truly lived through previously totally free into nightmare
  234. forkwork I have.
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  237. kurisu forkwork, where was that
  238. forkwork It took about a dozen of years, initial steps passed into force after 4 years
  239. wgreenhouse if that's true, hard to understand why you'd disregard the signs
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  241. forkwork And all begun from "protect the children"
  242. forkwork I am saying don't be too alertful, don't be not alertful
  243. forkwork Alert as much as right or can impact
  244. forkwork Those chats are not the place to make an impact on the system
  245. moparisthebest forkwork, directly funded by UK govt https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/revealed-uk-government-publicity-blitz-to-undermine-privacy-encryption-1285453/
  246. forkwork Again, wasting energy
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  248. forkwork kurisu: I don't know/trust to disclose, sorry
  249. forkwork What non-censoring countries can a UK citizen emigrate to?
  250. moparisthebest if here isn't where to make an impact, then where ? we develop open and federated e2e chat systems
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  262. forkwork Thae above is an action, unlike empty talking.
  263. forkwork The above is an action, unlike empty talking.
  264. forkwork Or XMPP, frankly not achieved anything for dozens of years.
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  267. moparisthebest hehe, you'd have to be living under a rock to believe that
  268. forkwork Or hey, go waste your time in chats and then wake up in a dystopia
  269. forkwork Good luck
  270. forkwork LoL
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  272. wgreenhouse > What non-censoring countries can a UK citizen emigrate to? forkwork: perhaps .fi or .ee or elsewhere in northern europe, at least until visas are cut off in retaliation for brexit-related foolishness
  273. wgreenhouse only speaking English makes many in .uk unemployable elsewhere
  274. kurisu >only speaking English makes many in .uk unemployable elsewhere Only if you only count "non censoring" countries. But otherwise brits and muricans are quite lucky in this regard, pretty much all of them have the option of going to china or some shithole to "teach english" and make a living
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  276. kurisu but yeah when it comes to the very few non censoring countries brits aren't much more priveleged than anyone else
  277. moparisthebest as if the only option is running away?
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  279. moparisthebest step #1 is sharing info to try to educate everyone about why this is braindead
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  281. moparisthebest we already have the technology to completely ignore this, lord knows criminals will, it's just math, you can't ban math even if you want to
  282. wgreenhouse too long, needs a three word slogan
  283. moparisthebest but step #2 is make sure your govt doesn't make these bad decisions
  284. wgreenhouse Boris Johnson hoodwinked a whole country with "Get Brexit Done"
  285. wgreenhouse that's the cognitive level
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  287. moparisthebest different topic though, the UK and EU were big on backdoors before brexit and still are now
  288. moparisthebest kind of strange really, EU seems to pass insane laws on both ends of the privacy spectrum that totally contradict each other?
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  290. wgreenhouse accurate. that's kind of what happens when you tell a whole continent's worth of police (Europol) to cooperate on the one hand, but a whole continent's worth of judges to cooperate (ECJ and ECHR) on the other. you get more efforts to circumvent civil rights + more decisions affirming them.
  291. qwestion moparisthebest, biometric passports since this year
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  341. msavoritias qwestion: where
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  349. qwestion msavoritias: sorry i meant ids, passports were obiometric already (for all?) eu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area?wprov=sfla1
  350. qwestion very offtopic here though
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  371. qwestion https://www.biometricupdate.com/202108/eu-members-launch-new-biometric-id-applications-on-deadline-day
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  380. emus guys, offtopic
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  409. . *gays
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  416. Guus the results generated on xmpp.net seem to consistently fail. I wonder if it's the IM Observatory itself that is having trouble with something.
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  418. Guus hmm, maybe not _consistently_ ... but there's a _lot_ of failures recently.
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  420. MattJ Guus: we're planning to retire it soon
  421. Guus Due to maintenance issues?
  422. MattJ The code is old and unmaintained, the recommendations are out of date
  423. Guus sad to see it go, but understandable.
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  425. MattJ And now it fails most certificates due to the Let's Encrypt expiry
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  428. MattJ We'll hopefully gain a replacement, but testssl.sh is a viable alternative mostly
  429. Guus Is there any kind of replacement in the works?
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  433. Neustradamus Guus: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory
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  435. Guus Neustradamus: I _created_ that repository.
  436. mdosch > We'll hopefully gain a replacement, but testssl.sh is a viable alternative mostly It misses an `echo "Grade: A++++"`
  437. Zash Maybe it needs a swift kick in the docker
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  529. Ge0rG jonas’: is the editor tooling still generating "Status: Draft" instead of Stable in the docmeta block, or do we need to s/Draft/Stable/ in all the XEP XMLs?
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  537. emus ralphm did you receive my mail to discuss it on the agenda tomorrow (if not before)?
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  540. MattJ Guus [08:26]: > Is there any kind of replacement in the works? jonas’ has been working on something
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  549. Guus \o/
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  566. jonas’ Guus, FYI https://github.com/horazont/testxmpp
  567. Guus nice. If you prefer to re-purpose https://github.com/xmpp-observatory for this, I'm game
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  576. flow I am still fascinated that testssl.sh is a ~1MiB bash script, although I am not sure why
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  579. Holger Being an admin in one of my lifes I write /bin/sh a lot, but I don't quite get that hype around using it for cases where Python/whatever would be way more straightforward ...
  580. Guus portability, maybe?
  581. Zash In this day and age when "portability" is an alias of "Docker" ...
  582. Guus waves a Java banner.
  583. Guus PHP on the command line!
  584. Guus ok, I'll go now.
  585. Zash either Docker or statically compiled binary
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  613. Ge0rG Docker is just a fancy linker for your code's dependencies.
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  687. antranigv People bash me on the orange website whenever I talk about portability. I think they don't use multiple operating systems. and for them portability usually means "it works on Debian and CentOS"
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  690. antranigv meanwhile some people run OpenBSD, FreeBSD, illumos, macOS (server), and the list goes on.
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  718. bung What changed after buying jabber? Cisco what did it buy? Is the name right?
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  722. MattJ bung, https://stpeter.im/journal/1270.html
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  734. bung What were the purposes of purchase? Was they can't do the project without buying?
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  736. Holger Selling <https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/> for example?
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  763. bung is it necessary to buy it to sell?
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  765. wgreenhouse bung: there are commercial XMPP products that don't license Cisco's trademark
  766. wgreenhouse the trademark is needed to sell things as part of Cisco Jabber™
  767. wgreenhouse so yes, literally just the name. that's what a trademark governs
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  769. bung okay ı understand
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  771. MattJ and the Jabber Inc. team of course
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  774. MattJ Many of the Jabber Inc. folk continued to work for Cisco for years
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  776. wgreenhouse and you can still buy Cisco Jabber™ clients/servers/desk phones/etc.
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  893. Guus What are more examples of message stanzas that have no body but do have another child element, like Chat States?
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  895. Sam IBB again
  896. Sam <message><data/>
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  899. Zash receipts
  900. Zash chat markers
  901. Ge0rG Guus: MUC invitations don't strictly need a body
  902. MattJ MAM results
  903. Ge0rG MattJ: those should have been type=headline.
  904. Zash if anyone happens to be sitting on a time machine, going back to '99 and pointing out that a type=randompayload might be nice to have would be good
  905. Guus thank you.
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  912. flow Zash, me, I actually think that a fixed set of attribute values is often nice to have
  913. flow Zash, meh, I actually think that a fixed set of attribute values is often nice to have
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  924. flow after all type is mostly "routing-rules-type"
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  932. Zash But is there a routing rule type suitable for archive results?
  933. Ge0rG headline
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  936. Zash but at the same time, we sometimes want replay / archives of those too...
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  938. Ge0rG archives of archive results?
  939. Zash pubsub _does_ have a weird setting for payload type, so that could be used
  940. Zash Ge0rG, pubsub notifications, sometimes
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  1015. Ge0rG larma: so I think that keeping 353 for call initiation only matches its semantics and is also a good means to implement group calls. That said, I'm okay with decoupling it from jingle and allowing to plug in different mechanisms.
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  1019. Ge0rG Regarding tie breaks, I suppose it makes sense to have some sort of identifier that cuts through the abstraction layers into the streaming layer there, and of course to leave that limited to 1:1
  1020. jonas’ (there was a discussion in council@ started by an innocent agenda notice, for anyone wondering where that ^ is coming from: https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2022-01-19#2022-01-19-8068f540a0dd54f7)
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  1022. larma Ge0rG, alright, I guess that also sounds good to Thilo Molitor?
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  1034. Ge0rG larma: I hope that was a CC and not a question to me
  1035. MattJ FWIW Prosody already has some heuristics to determine "urgency" from the JMI payload, so I appreciate any way to differentiate a call invitation from a file transfer
  1036. larma Ge0rG, the question was for Thilo 🙂
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  1145. emus Hello developers, just a still new years reminder to take your chance at the XMPP Office Hours if you want to present or talk about a topic! https://xmpp.org/community/officehours/
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  1150. bung emus ı am not developer but ı am learning. Can ı join?
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  1165. emus bung: the talks are public for everyone
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  1176. Sam You could even give a talk, it's not just for developers :)
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  1178. bung Okay :)
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  1271. jonas’ 09:26:23 Ge0rG> jonas’: is the editor tooling still generating "Status: Draft" instead of Stable in the docmeta block, or do we need to s/Draft/Stable/ in all the XEP XMLs? the XSL will translate Draft -> Stable on rendering
  1272. Ge0rG but there is a bunch of XEPs still in "Draft", even recently modified ones like 0459
  1273. jonas’ Ge0rG, where?
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  1276. moparisthebest I noticed that yesterday too
  1277. Ge0rG jonas’: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html under "Status"
  1278. jonas’ oh, ha
  1279. jonas’ I missed that spot apparently
  1280. Ge0rG but it's the most important sport!
  1281. jonas’ not really ;)
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  1284. jonas’ I was more concerned about the big coloured blob of text
  1285. Ge0rG My wetware adblocker always filters out the green wall of text
  1286. jonas’ mine filters about everything else
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  1297. Ge0rG 🙈
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  1328. Ge0rG jonas’: while you are at it, can you also hyperlink the Supersedes/Superseded by lines?
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  1333. jonas’ no, I started messing with the XSL and then vim messed up the indentation and I didn't want to fire up an IDE and then I stopped
  1334. Zash `hg fix`
  1335. Zash stuff it trough xmllint or something
  1336. jonas’ I friggin hate how vim does things on <>
  1337. Ge0rG Yeah.
  1338. Zash not as much as I hate the default vim behavior with y aml
  1339. Zash not as much as I hate the default vim behavior with yaml
  1340. Zash there's at least one nice vim xml plugin that makes it infinitely much nicer to edit xml than yaml
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  1343. Zash there's at least one nice vim xml plugin that makes it infinitely much nicer to edit xml than json*
  1344. Ge0rG I'm sure that plugin will come with a can of worms of sideeffects
  1345. Zash I'm sure you will find that missing JSON comma, one day.
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  1375. jonas’ Ge0rG, holiday present just for you incoming
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  1379. jonas’ Ge0rG, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/3f5fd31323ff05e625553249feeee3d041f2f0f4 + https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/00ea099c7a341e0c25df4b6100803ab0c3963b45
  1380. jonas’ builds are running, should be up in a few minutes
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  1384. Ge0rG jonas’: 😍
  1385. jonas’ … probably does terrible things to the PDFs
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  1391. jonas’ Ge0rG, it's live
  1392. jonas’ thanks to the genericity of it, it also affects the depends section :)
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  1395. Ge0rG jonas’: cool!
  1396. Ge0rG XEP-0423 is missing a "Superseded by XEP-0443"
  1397. jonas’ Ge0rG, PRs welcome
  1398. jonas’ I just closed everything :P
  1399. Ge0rG Meh.
  1400. Ge0rG jonas’: thanks very much anyway!
  1401. jonas’ you're welcome, enjoy your time away from screens
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  1406. mjk > I noticed that yesterday I noticed that yesteryear... Should have at least opened an issue. All hail jonas’!
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  1414. Ge0rG jonas’: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1151
  1415. jonas’ thx
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  1477. qy > wgreenhouse wrote: > forkwork: perhaps .fi or .ee or elsewhere in northern europe, at least until visas are cut off in retaliation for brexit-related foolishness Immigration laws in .fi are pretty strict already yo
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  1563. moparisthebest Now for a very important topic... Does anyone have anything XEP-wise in the works for April 1st ?
  1564. moparisthebest Please, sit down and swallow any liquids before reading this...
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  1567. moparisthebest But I'm thinking some XMPP over HL7 would be fun
  1568. Zash reaches for the comed-tea
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  1573. moparisthebest Not the new 1995 XML based HL7 version 3 that no one uses yet mind you, but the original 1989 version 2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Level_7#Version_2_messaging
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  1575. emus HL7, I only dream of HL3
  1576. emus HL7? I only dream of HL3
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  1581. Ge0rG moparisthebest: we already had xmpp over packet radio
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  1584. qy > moparisthebest wrote: > But I'm thinking some XMPP over HL7 would be fun I think I hate you
  1585. Ge0rG https://aprsdroid.org/xaprs/
  1586. Zash XMPP over wet string?
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  1590. Ge0rG I have an idea, and it's really horrible.
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  1606. moparisthebest SRV records _xmpp-hl7-client._tcp.example.org and _xmpp-hl7-server._tcp.example.org
  1607. Ellenor Malik HL7?
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  1609. moparisthebest Ellenor Malik, it's what all hospitals and most medical devices communicate with to this day... I linked wikipedia
  1610. Ellenor Malik aha
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  1639. bung Does XMPP have a situation as old as old? 20 years ago for example
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  1645. moparisthebest bung, what do you mean ?
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  1649. bung x can it become obsolete one day
  1650. bung xmpp
  1651. moparisthebest bung, it's already about 21 years old and has evolved with the times well, due to it being extensible, so I don't think so
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  1665. MattJ XMPP forever
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  1668. dwd moparisthebest, XMPP over HL7 is getting scarily close to the kinds of things I've had to do for real.
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  1670. moparisthebest right? that's why it would be a hilarious and traumatizing April 1st XEP
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  1681. emus MattJ: Congrats regarding blog post!
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