XSF Discussion - 2022-01-19

> https://noplacetohide.org.uk/ this must be irony ✏

> this must be irony nah, just a long standing ambition of .gov.uk

to have their decryption key in all software used by their subjects

I mean you do this by bribing and subjugating developers not by some stupid website It's laughable, who on earth is going to even read this? Devs that care about privacy won't listen to such nonsense (because no one with half a brain will), companies willing to cooperate don't need an ethical reason to sell out, in fact they'd sell out even if it actively hurt le children ✏

The site is not official

End of story

> wgreenhouse wrote: > nah, just a long standing ambition of .gov.uk org.uk

Open your eyes, stop blindly "trust" unreliable peers.

forkwork: the site is a Home Office-sponsored initiative

Can you confirm from the Home Office?

If not, the above is in full power.

The Internet is full of disinfo.

I thought this was more of a Russian thing

https://draugr.de/upload/00f530bb49b4e1685114d28f8bb6fb44b2fcbc2f/NRj0iDvLqyP7D6bNcUdmsrraK9FruYVZ7T8KiWEz/Screenshot_2022-01-19_at_05-14-13_Bellingcat___bellingcat_.png

Exactly why I am extremely cautious

Those Russians

forkwork: > [No Place to Hide] is made up of a coalition of "child safety campaigners, charities, tech experts and survivors of child sex abuse" brought together by communications company M&C Saatchi and *backed by the Home Office.* https://www.bbc.com/news/59964656

it's not a secret

Regardless it is not gov't-run, I must note

Compare whois records: https://whois.domaintools.com/noplacetohide.org.uk https://whois.domaintools.com/gov.uk

it's government astroturf through private orgs convened by the government. you're a useful idiot if this fools you

literally an ad agency paid by the Home Office

Harsh

it's also conveniently coming out just as parliament debates the same issue

You are an idiot if you think words equal actual implementation or that even going to work

I have heard far wider insanities from far more dangerous governments in my life to see that

I didn't say it would be implemented. I said it's the longstanding publicly stated goal of the UK government

The government may or may not change

Unlike in some countries where "not" is permanent.

it's the longstanding goal of the parts of the UK government that don't change :)

"Parts"

namely the permanent civil service

and both major parties

Parts ;)

no real dispute about surveillance powers

Aren't there more than 2 parties?

forkwork: none that will win power, thanks to first past the post

lib dems and greens are far smaller

Huh

Well, you have tools to enlarge the smaller ✏

It is delayed to 2023, the article said, but might need to be paid some attention

> It is delayed to 2023, the article said, but might need to be paid some attention you think? 🤣

I saw how with a similar pretext, a large-scale Orwell-like system was deployed

thanks for your permission

You are inexperienced.

I don't have much hope for UK politics, other than that Scotland will leave. the rest of the place is screwed for a generation at least by Brexit, xenophobia, and militarism.

they will get their Orwellian system

You haven't truly lived through previously totally free into nightmare

I have.

forkwork, where was that

It took about a dozen of years, initial steps passed into force after 4 years

if that's true, hard to understand why you'd disregard the signs

And all begun from "protect the children"

I am saying don't be too alertful, don't be not alertful

Alert as much as right or can impact

Those chats are not the place to make an impact on the system

forkwork, directly funded by UK govt https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/revealed-uk-government-publicity-blitz-to-undermine-privacy-encryption-1285453/

Again, wasting energy

kurisu: I don't know/trust to disclose, sorry

What non-censoring countries can a UK citizen emigrate to?

if here isn't where to make an impact, then where ? we develop open and federated e2e chat systems

The above is an action, unlike empty talking. ✏

Or XMPP, frankly not achieved anything for dozens of years.

hehe, you'd have to be living under a rock to believe that

Or hey, go waste your time in chats and then wake up in a dystopia

Good luck

LoL

> What non-censoring countries can a UK citizen emigrate to? forkwork: perhaps .fi or .ee or elsewhere in northern europe, at least until visas are cut off in retaliation for brexit-related foolishness

only speaking English makes many in .uk unemployable elsewhere

>only speaking English makes many in .uk unemployable elsewhere Only if you only count "non censoring" countries. But otherwise brits and muricans are quite lucky in this regard, pretty much all of them have the option of going to china or some shithole to "teach english" and make a living

but yeah when it comes to the very few non censoring countries brits aren't much more priveleged than anyone else

as if the only option is running away?

step #1 is sharing info to try to educate everyone about why this is braindead

we already have the technology to completely ignore this, lord knows criminals will, it's just math, you can't ban math even if you want to

too long, needs a three word slogan

but step #2 is make sure your govt doesn't make these bad decisions

Boris Johnson hoodwinked a whole country with "Get Brexit Done"

that's the cognitive level

different topic though, the UK and EU were big on backdoors before brexit and still are now

kind of strange really, EU seems to pass insane laws on both ends of the privacy spectrum that totally contradict each other?

accurate. that's kind of what happens when you tell a whole continent's worth of police (Europol) to cooperate on the one hand, but a whole continent's worth of judges to cooperate (ECJ and ECHR) on the other. you get more efforts to circumvent civil rights + more decisions affirming them.

moparisthebest, biometric passports since this year

qwestion: where

msavoritias: sorry i meant ids, passports were obiometric already (for all?) eu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area?wprov=sfla1

very offtopic here though

https://www.biometricupdate.com/202108/eu-members-launch-new-biometric-id-applications-on-deadline-day

guys, offtopic

*gays

the results generated on xmpp.net seem to consistently fail. I wonder if it's the IM Observatory itself that is having trouble with something.

hmm, maybe not _consistently_ ... but there's a _lot_ of failures recently.

Guus: we're planning to retire it soon

Due to maintenance issues?

The code is old and unmaintained, the recommendations are out of date

sad to see it go, but understandable.

And now it fails most certificates due to the Let's Encrypt expiry

We'll hopefully gain a replacement, but testssl.sh is a viable alternative mostly

Is there any kind of replacement in the works?

Guus: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory

Neustradamus: I _created_ that repository.

> We'll hopefully gain a replacement, but testssl.sh is a viable alternative mostly It misses an `echo "Grade: A++++"`

Maybe it needs a swift kick in the docker

jonas’: is the editor tooling still generating "Status: Draft" instead of Stable in the docmeta block, or do we need to s/Draft/Stable/ in all the XEP XMLs?

ralphm did you receive my mail to discuss it on the agenda tomorrow (if not before)?

Guus [08:26]: > Is there any kind of replacement in the works? jonas’ has been working on something

\o/

Guus, FYI https://github.com/horazont/testxmpp

nice. If you prefer to re-purpose https://github.com/xmpp-observatory for this, I'm game

I am still fascinated that testssl.sh is a ~1MiB bash script, although I am not sure why

Being an admin in one of my lifes I write /bin/sh a lot, but I don't quite get that hype around using it for cases where Python/whatever would be way more straightforward ...

portability, maybe?

In this day and age when "portability" is an alias of "Docker" ...

PHP on the command line!

ok, I'll go now.

either Docker or statically compiled binary

Docker is just a fancy linker for your code's dependencies.

People bash me on the orange website whenever I talk about portability. I think they don't use multiple operating systems. and for them portability usually means "it works on Debian and CentOS"

meanwhile some people run OpenBSD, FreeBSD, illumos, macOS (server), and the list goes on.

What changed after buying jabber? Cisco what did it buy? Is the name right?

bung, https://stpeter.im/journal/1270.html

What were the purposes of purchase? Was they can't do the project without buying?

Selling <https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/> for example?

is it necessary to buy it to sell?

bung: there are commercial XMPP products that don't license Cisco's trademark

the trademark is needed to sell things as part of Cisco Jabber™

so yes, literally just the name. that's what a trademark governs

okay ı understand

and the Jabber Inc. team of course

Many of the Jabber Inc. folk continued to work for Cisco for years

and you can still buy Cisco Jabber™ clients/servers/desk phones/etc.

What are more examples of message stanzas that have no body but do have another child element, like Chat States?

IBB again

<message><data/>

receipts

chat markers

Guus: MUC invitations don't strictly need a body

MAM results

MattJ: those should have been type=headline.

if anyone happens to be sitting on a time machine, going back to '99 and pointing out that a type=randompayload might be nice to have would be good

thank you.

Zash, meh, I actually think that a fixed set of attribute values is often nice to have ✏

after all type is mostly "routing-rules-type"

But is there a routing rule type suitable for archive results?

headline

but at the same time, we sometimes want replay / archives of those too...

archives of archive results?

pubsub _does_ have a weird setting for payload type, so that could be used

Ge0rG, pubsub notifications, sometimes

larma: so I think that keeping 353 for call initiation only matches its semantics and is also a good means to implement group calls. That said, I'm okay with decoupling it from jingle and allowing to plug in different mechanisms.

Regarding tie breaks, I suppose it makes sense to have some sort of identifier that cuts through the abstraction layers into the streaming layer there, and of course to leave that limited to 1:1

(there was a discussion in council@ started by an innocent agenda notice, for anyone wondering where that ^ is coming from: https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2022-01-19#2022-01-19-8068f540a0dd54f7)

Ge0rG, alright, I guess that also sounds good to Thilo Molitor?

larma: I hope that was a CC and not a question to me

FWIW Prosody already has some heuristics to determine "urgency" from the JMI payload, so I appreciate any way to differentiate a call invitation from a file transfer

Ge0rG, the question was for Thilo 🙂

Hello developers, just a still new years reminder to take your chance at the XMPP Office Hours if you want to present or talk about a topic! https://xmpp.org/community/officehours/

emus ı am not developer but ı am learning. Can ı join?

bung: the talks are public for everyone

You could even give a talk, it's not just for developers :)

Okay :)

09:26:23 Ge0rG> jonas’: is the editor tooling still generating "Status: Draft" instead of Stable in the docmeta block, or do we need to s/Draft/Stable/ in all the XEP XMLs? the XSL will translate Draft -> Stable on rendering

but there is a bunch of XEPs still in "Draft", even recently modified ones like 0459

Ge0rG, where?

I noticed that yesterday too

jonas’: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html under "Status"

oh, ha

I missed that spot apparently

but it's the most important sport!

not really ;)

I was more concerned about the big coloured blob of text

My wetware adblocker always filters out the green wall of text

mine filters about everything else

🙈

jonas’: while you are at it, can you also hyperlink the Supersedes/Superseded by lines?

no, I started messing with the XSL and then vim messed up the indentation and I didn't want to fire up an IDE and then I stopped

`hg fix`

stuff it trough xmllint or something

I friggin hate how vim does things on <>

Yeah.

not as much as I hate the default vim behavior with yaml ✏

there's at least one nice vim xml plugin that makes it infinitely much nicer to edit xml than json* ✏

I'm sure that plugin will come with a can of worms of sideeffects

I'm sure you will find that missing JSON comma, one day.

Ge0rG, holiday present just for you incoming

Ge0rG, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/3f5fd31323ff05e625553249feeee3d041f2f0f4 + https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/00ea099c7a341e0c25df4b6100803ab0c3963b45

builds are running, should be up in a few minutes

jonas’: 😍

… probably does terrible things to the PDFs

Ge0rG, it's live

thanks to the genericity of it, it also affects the depends section :)

jonas’: cool!

XEP-0423 is missing a "Superseded by XEP-0443"

Ge0rG, PRs welcome

I just closed everything :P

Meh.

jonas’: thanks very much anyway!

you're welcome, enjoy your time away from screens

> I noticed that yesterday I noticed that yesteryear... Should have at least opened an issue. All hail jonas’!

jonas’: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1151

thx

> wgreenhouse wrote: > forkwork: perhaps .fi or .ee or elsewhere in northern europe, at least until visas are cut off in retaliation for brexit-related foolishness Immigration laws in .fi are pretty strict already yo

Now for a very important topic... Does anyone have anything XEP-wise in the works for April 1st ?

Please, sit down and swallow any liquids before reading this...

But I'm thinking some XMPP over HL7 would be fun

Not the new 1995 XML based HL7 version 3 that no one uses yet mind you, but the original 1989 version 2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Level_7#Version_2_messaging

HL7? I only dream of HL3 ✏

moparisthebest: we already had xmpp over packet radio

> moparisthebest wrote: > But I'm thinking some XMPP over HL7 would be fun I think I hate you

https://aprsdroid.org/xaprs/

XMPP over wet string?

I have an idea, and it's really horrible.

SRV records _xmpp-hl7-client._tcp.example.org and _xmpp-hl7-server._tcp.example.org

HL7?

Ellenor Malik, it's what all hospitals and most medical devices communicate with to this day... I linked wikipedia

aha

Does XMPP have a situation as old as old? 20 years ago for example

bung, what do you mean ?

x can it become obsolete one day

xmpp

bung, it's already about 21 years old and has evolved with the times well, due to it being extensible, so I don't think so

XMPP forever

moparisthebest, XMPP over HL7 is getting scarily close to the kinds of things I've had to do for real.

right? that's why it would be a hilarious and traumatizing April 1st XEP

MattJ: Congrats regarding blog post!