XSF Discussion - 2022-01-26

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10:19:05 Neustradamus I can create a ticket about the bad logo here: https://opencollective.com/xmpp? I have already informed a long time ago but it has been forgotten, I think, and without ticket, no following.
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10:25:59 mjk What's bad about it? Raster?
10:26:42 emus Neustradamus: As I recommended in my message to you yesterday, I think and still recommend you give it a bit of time before you engage in new tickets of any regard currently. You can find a decent logo in Wikipedia.
10:28:04 Neustradamus emus: It is for this that I have posted this message here.
10:31:32 Neustradamus mjk: Good logo is here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:XMPP_logo.svg + https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:XMPP_logo_(without_text).svg
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10:43:23 mjk Their canonical source is probably here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/static/images/logos Anyway, what's _really_ horrible is the C++ pseudo-logo on the front page of xmpp.org! Here's a real one: https://github.com/isocpp/logos/blob/master/cpp_logo.svg
10:43:53 mjk Shall I PR?
10:44:31 Guus yesplease
10:45:12 Neustradamus mjk: it has been updated, you can look here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/static/images/logos
10:45:37 Neustradamus The issue: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/608
10:46:27 Neustradamus It is good now at this place
10:46:28 Guus mjk: maybe pre-emptively point to https://isocpp.org/home/terms-of-use in your PR
10:48:10 mjk Guus: right (I haven't studiet the ToU yet)
10:48:38 Guus ianal, but "sure, go ahead as long as you're not suggesting we're endorsing you"
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10:55:35 Guus How do contributions to the XSF through OpenCollective compare to the good old XSF sponsoring we also/used to have?
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10:58:09 emus Guus: tell me more?
11:00:25 Daniel regular sponsorship is rather expensive (for individuals) but comes with perks
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11:09:27 emus perks?
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11:11:13 Daniel benefits https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship/
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11:17:47 guus.der.kinderen Is the money earmarked differently? Should we start using OpenCollective's payment processing services (that also support recurring payments) for 'old style' sponsoring too?
11:18:27 guus.der.kinderen Or, if there is a difference, we might want to document that publicly?
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11:19:46 guus.der.kinderen Linking to OpenCollective from https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship/ might draw more attention to that, which I suppose is a good thing.
11:20:28 dwd I've just noticed that sponsors can submit blog posts to the XSF Blog. And they're vetted by the Council for some reason.
11:20:53 guus.der.kinderen We had that since the beginning of time, I think.
11:21:53 guus.der.kinderen One benefit of OC-for-sponsors is that it might take away our annual manual generation of invoices, which we are bad at.
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11:22:26 guus.der.kinderen Plus, the exposure/transparency might be good.
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11:25:28 emus > guus.der.kinderen escribió: > Linking to OpenCollective from https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship/ might draw more attention to that, which I suppose is a good thing. could you PR what you have in mind?
11:26:09 guus.der.kinderen I'm not sure if it is a good idea. I wanted to start a discussion here, first. 😊
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11:30:51 dwd I'm not sure that OC is the right vehicle for corproate sponsorship, but really from the corporate sponsor's side - people do seem to like invoices and suchlike.
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11:34:31 emus Do we do financial reporting actually?
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11:37:56 guus.der.kinderen Doesn't OC provide those? I can imagine that they must, if.only for their accounting.
11:41:24 guus.der.kinderen emus: our treasurer does that.
11:42:39 dwd Sorry, to be clear: "I'm not sure that" is for once a genuine statement of uncertainty, not me being polite and British and saying "You're completely wrong".
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11:43:27 emus guus.der.kinderen: is it public?
11:45:00 guus.der.kinderen emus: unsure if they are published, but I don't think that they're secret.
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11:46:17 MattJ dwd, https://docs.opencollective.com/help/expenses-and-getting-paid/submitting-expenses#invoices
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11:47:07 MattJ It's my understanding that OC is specifically designed to be a good bridge between the corporate and FOSS worlds
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11:49:15 emus Would be interested
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11:50:50 Guus MattJ, that link describes invoices for the payee, I think, not the payer.
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11:53:37 Guus > What's the difference between an individual and an organization profile? > Organizations represent a company or entity, while individual profiles represent a person. Organization profiles can have multiple team members (individual profiles) who have access to edit it and make financial contributions in its name. If a contribution or expense is for a company, it's important to use an organization profile so the correct billing information shows up on receipts and invoices. Organizations can also issue gift cards.
11:53:52 Guus that suggests that invoices are supplied to payers
11:54:27 dwd MattJ, Ah, nice.
11:55:35 Guus but, stepping back: do we _want_ these contributions to go through the same mechanism?
11:55:59 Guus I'm not seeing an immediate reason to not do this, but it's worth thinking about that for a second or two, maybe.
11:56:12 Zash It's probably looking more Serious to send proper invoices without an intermediary
11:56:23 Sam Just catching up, but FWIW I know a lot of organizations that do corporate sponsorship through Open Collective.
11:56:48 dwd Yeah, I can't think of any reason as long as they handle decent invoincing, and they probably do that better than us.
11:57:08 dwd As for intermediaries, even my plumber sends me invoivcing through Xero now.
11:59:35 Sam As far as I know OC doesn't generate invoices in any meaningful sense though. That is, you can put your info in and it will make a single one geared towards expenses, and only if the other party is on OC themselves
12:00:19 Sam I've been using https://app.workspace.fiverr.com/ to keep track of clients and generate recurring invoices that get automatically sent and the like, unsure if there are better options but that's been working for me (and I got it free through the freelancers union)
12:00:57 Sam Or rather, you can upload your own invoice on OC and input the details, it doesn't really generate it.
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12:12:16 mjk >> Anyway, what's _really_ horrible is the C++ pseudo-logo on the front page of xmpp.org! >> Shall I PR? > yesplease Done! https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/1062
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12:52:00 mjk ty!
12:53:17 Neustradamus Thanks mjk!
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12:54:06 mjk np. Wanted to do it for a long time :))
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12:55:50 Neustradamus mjk: Never too late ^^
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15:20:01 dwd Well, CVE-2021-4034 looks like a barrel of laughs.
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15:45:27 moparisthebest dwd, yep linked it in xmpp operators channel yesterday https://blog.qualys.com/vulnerabilities-threat-research/2022/01/25/pwnkit-local-privilege-escalation-vulnerability-discovered-in-polkits-pkexec-cve-2021-4034 fun since 2009 !
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15:45:56 Zash And wasn't it discovered in 2013 but not fixed?
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15:48:26 moparisthebest ah I didn't read that ?
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15:51:24 Zash https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2022/01/26/7
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15:52:37 moparisthebest oof
15:53:40 junaid well... that's embrassing
15:54:15 moparisthebest by all means though continue writing important things in C, nothing wrong with that :D
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16:29:03 dwd Real programmers write in C.
16:29:09 jonas’ like pkexec?
16:29:11 dwd Real engineers don't, but that's another matter.
16:29:27 jonas’ oh wow
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16:29:52 Zash programmers ^ engineers you say?
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16:52:48 moparisthebest does anyone know of any use of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0451.html in the wild ? cc Sam
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16:53:48 moparisthebest on a related note, is there really not a generic way you can send a certificate along with a signature to prove you have the associated private key ? (outside of TLS negotiation, that is)
16:54:45 Zash stop right there, before you invent something like what email, matrix or mastodon uses
16:55:06 MattJ DKIX?
16:55:40 Zash Why would you need to anyway?
16:56:19 moparisthebest MattJ, searches aren't really fruitful, happen to know any more words? :)
16:56:33 Zash Anything sent via TLS is implicitly signed by the TLS cert key, no?
16:56:48 Zash What problem are you trying to solve?
16:56:50 moparisthebest Zash, to avoid dialback/mux, for piggybacking
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16:56:54 MattJ moparisthebest, sorry, it was a name proposal, not an existing technology. Zash has been complaining about DKIM all week.
16:57:20 moparisthebest you just "hey looks like you also serve muc.yourdomain, care to send me the cert to prove it? thanks!"
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16:58:28 moparisthebest or the other direction, "hey I'm already connected/authenticated to you for example.org, but I also host muc.example.org and have a few stanzas to send, here's proof"
16:58:33 Zash renegotiation and ask for another client cert? good thing renegotiation has been killed with fire
16:58:51 Zash how about this solution: don't
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16:59:11 jonas’ moparisthebest, I don't quite yet see the problem statement :)
16:59:21 moparisthebest wouldn't it be a lot nicer than everything else ? assuming it was simple and secure that is
16:59:28 Zash demand it be covered by SAN in the already sent certificate or open another connection
16:59:32 moparisthebest jonas’, avoiding dialback/mux/extra connections
16:59:41 jonas’ what's wrong with mux?
16:59:51 jonas’ I mean I can agree on dialback being bad
17:00:17 jonas’ ~~but I don't see what's wrong with mux or even multiple TCP streams (though you may now say file descriptors, I'll raise you a "rate limiting is much easier if you only have a single stream per entity)~~ ✎
17:00:21 jonas’ but I don't see what's wrong with mux or even multiple TCP streams (though you may now say file descriptors, I'll raise you a "rate limiting is much easier if you only have a single stream per entity") ✏
17:00:34 jonas’ so, what is the *problem* you're trying to solve, not the thing you're trying to make fancier :)
17:00:57 moparisthebest mux is better than dialback, that's why I was asking about implementations
17:01:07 Zash I'm firmly in the "use BIDI, burn dialback, be happy" camp
17:01:09 moparisthebest but it'd be even better to *not* have to create new connections
17:01:57 Zash Because really, how much does multiplexing really give you?
17:02:11 Zash (Actual question that I would like to see answered with statistics and surveys)
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17:04:04 moparisthebest the end game here is I'm working on a spec for XMPP-over-QUIC, and so have the opportunity to make all the good things MUST
17:04:29 moparisthebest bidi, mux, forbid dialback, it's all on the table
17:05:12 moparisthebest I don't want to *invent* a way to prove you have a cert outside of TLS, but it's kind of something I assume exists already, somewhere, and if it was nice, it could be good to re-use
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17:09:12 jonas’ oh right
17:09:15 jonas’ I meant bidi, not MUX
17:09:18 jonas’ just BIDI, KISS things.
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17:11:05 moparisthebest or you could forbid BIDI by only allowing one-way streams for s2s connections, which is a concept QUIC supports
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17:11:26 moparisthebest you can open multiple streams per connection, either way actually
17:13:15 jonas’ moparisthebest, IIRC you need the back channel actually
17:13:17 jonas’ for stream errors or so
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17:14:31 moparisthebest yea that's what I concluded too, just stating the options
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17:15:16 moparisthebest multiplexing without head-of-line blocking would be pretty nice for s2s though
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17:15:32 moparisthebest could be for a client with multiple accounts on the same server as well, I guess
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18:28:23 moparisthebest Is there precedent for deprecating half of a final xep? Specifically the zlib method of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0138.html
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18:32:41 jonas’ moparisthebest: unlikely
18:33:41 Zash awkward with MTI
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18:35:50 moparisthebest So, suggestions? Deprecate whole thing and next method can re-spec it in a separate xep ?
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18:36:21 moparisthebest Probably wouldn't make sense to make it a new xep now with no methods...
18:36:50 jonas’ yeah, probably obsolete the entire thing
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20:10:59 Zash ~~Anyone know how to turn 3 sentences into an informal XEP about the proper procedure for service discovery?©~~ ✎
20:11:01 Zash Anyone know how to turn 3 sentences into an informal XEP about the proper procedure for service discovery? ✏
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20:17:17 moparisthebest slap some XML tags around it and send it to the editor
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20:18:51 Zash `echo "Start with disco#info the domain part of your JID, then disco#items and recurse, but don't get into an infinite loop." | pandoc -t tools/2xep.lua`
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20:19:14 Zash missing *all* the required metadata!
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20:20:17 Zash Tho it could just as well be a section of XEP-0030
20:20:43 Zash > Version 2.5rc3 (2017-10-03) still so weird
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21:26:32 qwestion Hi noob here, so sorry if I should RTFM or ask elsewhere first, but I didn't find much in my xmpp hist about status.im, its tech and what xsf/xmpp devs think of them?
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21:27:33 qwestion Unrelated : https://tidelift.com/ is other possible complement to opencollective
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21:32:37 moparisthebest qwestion, status.im is not XMPP and is therefore trash not worth considering :D
21:34:00 Zash Not XMPP? Not on-topic. Simple as that.
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22:49:35 emus After I told Neustradamus to stop highlighting people, he is doing it again. Maybe more steps are necessary now.
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22:50:20 emus Sorry, different repository, but related to xmpp. got confused
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23:35:12 Neustradamus emus: The error is human, I forgive you.
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23:51:03 Neustradamus For information, maybe some people had not seen, I have renamed https://github.com/scram-xmpp/info/issues/1 to https://github.com/scram-sasl/info/issues/1 for a better deployment :) I am verry happy to see that SCRAM is increasingly used. The work done for many years shows success. I want to thank the developers who have been able to move this in our community.
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