XSF Discussion - 2022-01-28


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  823. phryk Is the roster defined in core?
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  825. phryk I was remember talking about encrypted rosters with someone a couple months back and they said it wouldn't be possible because the server has to decide who's authorized to messages to an account on it – but I just realized JIDs in rosters could easily be hashed and still be used for that check. This way, server compromises wouldn't expose users' social graphs in the network.
  826. Zash The other RFC
  827. Zash https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#roster
  828. phryk I was remembering talking about encrypted rosters with someone a couple months back and they said it wouldn't be possible because the server has to decide who's authorized to messages to an account on it – but I just realized JIDs in rosters could easily be hashed and still be used for that check. This way, server compromises wouldn't expose users' social graphs in the network.
  829. phryk Ah, that would break rosters for new devices…
  830. moparisthebest > because the server has to decide who's authorized to messages to an account on it
  831. moparisthebest what? servers don't allow or disallow messages based on rosters
  832. moparisthebest at least, good servers
  833. Zash There were ideas by someone (waqas? me? someone else) about ways store things on the server in some form so that the administrator could not tell anything from it.
  834. moparisthebest you can do client-side only rosters already, no spec changes needed, messaging still works
  835. Zash Personally I feel like, if you want this, are you really sure you want XMPP and servers at all then?
  836. millesimus has left
  837. moparisthebest what's the point though? assuming an evil server, they still have 100% of people you communicate with ?
  838. Zash moparisthebest, but then the evil untrustworthy server of doooooom will still see who you send messages to!!!!!!
  839. moparisthebest we've talked about a way where your server only knows the remote server of your contact, not the actual person there, but that's really only helpful when 2 people are using different large servers, so not all that often...
  840. phryk I'm not assuming an evil server, I'm assuming a good server being raided and forensically analyzed.
  841. mh has joined
  842. Zash full disk encryption
  843. moparisthebest ^
  844. phryk Aye, and I can set up swatd. But even case-opened sensors are easy to bypass.
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  846. moparisthebest so they don't have your roster just everyone you every communicate with post-raid ? meh
  847. moparisthebest assuming no logs that is
  848. Zash What actually happens: Your phone gets SWAT'd and you had all your conspiracies in plain text there.
  849. pep. moparisthebest, you can assume good operators/server being taken down. That's often an option critics overlook
  850. junaid has joined
  851. pep. FDE doesn't help much here either
  852. phryk Most phones come with encryption of this data if I'm not mistaken. Also they're right at hand so switching them of when a raid occurs is trivial. For a server in a diferent country that's completely unrealistic.
  853. phryk Most phones come with encryption of this data if I'm not mistaken. Also they're right at hand so switching them off when a raid occurs is trivial. For a server in a diferent country that's completely unrealistic.
  854. moparisthebest most phones come with trivial visit-a-webpage root vulns too so none of that mattercs
  855. pep. If suddenly police gets access to the encryption key because operators are legally forced to. At least admins wouldn't get access to user storage unless somebody changes the software at this point, obviously
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  866. pep. But canary and all that
  867. Zash Or we could focus on how useful it is to _trust the server_
  868. Zash Trust in the server, the server is good!
  869. phryk moparisthebest, just because one avanue of attack is possible doesn't mean you shouldn't protect against others? If you take that root, all security is pointless because perfect security is impossible…
  870. moparisthebest pep., are you saying admins would be forced to turn over the server to police but police wouldn't change the software to log the info they want ? that seems... crazy
  871. pep. Not saying that
  872. pep. I'm saying even if they would, birds would be singing
  873. moparisthebest phryk, you still haven't said what you are trying to protect against, or why you think not storing your roster on the server helps
  874. pep. But that's not a use-case to overlook anyway
  875. moparisthebest this whole "canary" concept seems highly questionable to me
  876. pep. You can trust the operators and not trust the cops
  877. moparisthebest you shouldn't trust anyone
  878. pep. (s/cops/governments, or..)
  879. moparisthebest *but* your server needs basic routing information to get your message from A to B, nothing can be done about this
  880. pep. You have to trust people at some point, you just have to choose who
  881. moparisthebest not even signal handwavy but muh SGX helps
  882. pep. SGX lol
  883. pep. So trusting Intel is fine by trusting my operator isn't?
  884. pep. So trusting Intel is fine but trusting my operator isn't?
  885. Zash Let's all just go read 'Reflections on trusting trust' again until we realize it's all doomed and we can go do fun things instead
  886. phryk moparisthebest, following scenario: cops raid the provider, leave the server running (i.e. full-disk encryption not being worth much since the key is in memory) and extract data for it. logs i can deactivate, but the rosters are extremely valuable metadata.
  887. moparisthebest pep., did you read my message wrong? I specifically said SGX *does not* help, despite signal's claimns otherwise :P
  888. pep. Ok then
  889. Daniel Didn't signal have a canary and then they removed it but people kept using and recommending it?
  890. millesimus has joined
  891. pep. ><
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  893. dwd Zash, Given I've spent the last month and a half writing a filter in Metre to strip e2ee, I'm thinking how useful it'd be to have server-side OMEMO now. All the benefits of OMEMO (for the other people that might need it), all the convenience and UX of not having it for me when my server it just over there _points toward the garage_
  894. moparisthebest dwd, so police just extract data once and don't change the server to logging?
  895. Zash dwd, YESSSS!
  896. dwd moparisthebest, How do the police get my server without asking me very nicely and having a warrant?
  897. pep. They can probably accuse you of terrorism and get away with it, and you'll get your server back.. never
  898. moparisthebest idk I thought we were talking about secret warrants served to providers
  899. moparisthebest pep., in that case FDE saves you
  900. Zash Not legal advice: Put your server in a drawer. I read somewhere that it takes an extra-specific warrant to go into drawers.
  901. Daniel > moparisthebest, How do the police get my server without asking me very nicely and having a warrant? Immenent danger?
  902. Daniel Something smelled like weed?
  903. dwd moparisthebest, Sure, if you don't run your own server your threat model might be different.
  904. chronosx88 has joined
  905. Zash Or you at some point in the last 90 year violated someones copyright?
  906. dwd Daniel, None of that would give them access to my server.
  907. pep. It's not like we didn't have proof by now that cops aren't here to protect the people but governments in place
  908. moparisthebest right, I'm wondering what specific scenario encrypted and/or client-side roster protects a user against, anything I can come up with seems contrived and unlikely
  909. phryk moparisthebest, yes, i am assuming that i can either destroy the DNS entries (at least temporarily) myself and get the word out about a compromise or have somebody else do it for me.
  910. pep. Riseup had a nice page detailing their use-case, trying to find it again
  911. moparisthebest riseup's usecase was "we are lazy, just use signal" iirc
  912. dwd Daniel, Or at least, none of that would give access to my server but not my phone.
  913. pep. moparisthebest, no?
  914. Daniel I do like server side omemo though (for people how run their own)
  915. moparisthebest luckily as the user of an xmpp client, you don't need to use the roster at all
  916. moparisthebest so this problem is already solved, right phryk ?
  917. ti_gj06 has left
  918. Daniel And I'm super glad I don't have plain text logs of the shit people send over my (public) server
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  920. Zash Server-side OMEMO↔OX translation?
  921. dwd Daniel, Right. E2ee protects providers very well, which is why WhatsApp do it.
  922. phryk moparisthebest, can you give me a source on that?
  923. moparisthebest phryk, sure, open a client, don't add anyone to your contact list, done ?
  924. dwd Zash, Well, it's all heavywieght TLS from your phone to you anyway, right?
  925. phryk and yes, if users can opt into that and then be sure the server doesn't store their roster, then that already solves the problem.
  926. pep. dwd, I'm curious though if they'd risk decrypting it server-side, or is your current work not related?
  927. pep. Otherwise they couldn't claim plausible deniability
  928. phryk moparisthebest, wow, how perfectly usable. :F
  929. moparisthebest phryk, why isn't it ?
  930. Zash dwd: ChaCha!
  931. moparisthebest you can message whoever you want at any time without adding them to your roster/contact list
  932. phryk because then they don't have a contact list which is an essential feature?
  933. moparisthebest it's completely optional
  934. Zash you can have the contact list on the client side
  935. Zash ignore presence
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  937. moparisthebest most clients already do this
  938. dwd pep., It's a very long story, but the decryption is for the purposes of increasing security.
  939. Zash .. figure out how the heck to get omemo key shuffling to work again?
  940. phryk Zash, is that a speciic XEP?
  941. dwd pep., TL;DR: Different people and organisations have different threat models.
  942. phryk Zash, is that a specific XEP?
  943. Zash phryk, no
  944. moparisthebest at least in gajim+dino+conversations if you start a conversation with someone, it'll stay there, even if you don't add them to your roster
  945. moparisthebest what are you missing exactly ?
  946. Zash phryk, you are aware that almost everything apart from XMPP Core is optional, right?
  947. phryk Yes.
  948. Zash You don't need rosters or presence to send messages
  949. phryk But I haven't ever seen any client making this optional.
  950. moparisthebest I've never seen a client where it *was not* optional ?
  951. dwd phryk, Oh, I have. But then, I've seen some weird clients.
  952. moparisthebest at least gajim, dino, conversations make it completely optional
  953. pep. "the decryption is for the purposes of increasing security." ah right :D
  954. dwd moparisthebest, Well, most clients use the roster, even if most don't mandate it.
  955. pep. Even if it were true, it's really fishy
  956. wgreenhouse has joined
  957. moparisthebest right, but none of these 3 *force* you to add people to a roster to chat with them, or keep the conversation open
  958. phryk moparisthebest, one of us is consistently having a severe misunderstanding.
  959. pep. moparisthebest, wrong? I think Conversations forces you to add somebody in the roster to open a chat with them
  960. pep. I've been annoyed by that in the past
  961. pep. Or you managed to open the tab another way then it's all good
  962. Daniel pep.: yes and no. If you unload mod_roster it will still work fine
  963. pep. If you managed to open the tab another way then it's all good
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  965. pep. So it needs to be added locally?
  966. phryk if i add someone to my contact list in dino, gajim et al – they go into the server-side roster, right? There's no setting in the client that lets me disable synchronizing my local contact list with the server roster, right?
  967. pep. (namely biboumi users. I don't want them in my roster)
  968. Zash If you somehow manage to invoke xmpp:someone-not@your-roster.example then you can still send messages
  969. pep. (or myself)
  970. pep. Or it's just that there's no UI for it, and yeah you need to workaround no UI
  971. phryk Daniel, so clients will (more or less) work fine if the roster is disabled on the server-side?
  972. moparisthebest phryk, so don't add them to your contact list? just start a conversation with them without doing that instead
  973. Daniel > Daniel, so clients will (more or less) work fine if the roster is disabled on the server-side? Yes
  974. phryk moparisthebest, having a contact list is stil not optional.
  975. mh has left
  976. Daniel Quicksy.im almost didn't have one
  977. phryk Daniel, Okay, that's all the info I needed. Then I can probably implement an ad-hoc or something command that let's users temporarily activate the roster for example for multi-client contact sync and turn it off and wipe the data from the server afterwards.
  978. wgreenhouse has left
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  980. phryk So that'd put users into control of how much of their data they are okay with being persistently on the server. And being able to prefer either comfort or security.
  981. moparisthebest phryk, sorry why is it not optional ?
  982. phryk moparisthebest, because otherwise UX is dogshit? o_O
  983. moparisthebest phryk, I think we are talking past each other, you are saying "users need it for good UX so it's not optional" and I'm saying "it's optional because they don't have to use it" ?
  984. moparisthebest users also need MAM for good UX and that involves you keeping all their messages + contacts on the server too so Β―\_(ツ)_/Β―
  985. phryk OMEMO'd messages aren't on there in plaintext. And I have the extended mod_e2e_policy module for that.
  986. moparisthebest OMEMO'd messages sender/reciever are there in plaintext, ie, everything that'd be in your roster
  987. phryk But yes, I should make sure that MAM is kept short and wiped. IIRC that's a Prosody setting that my setup already has…
  988. phryk So MAM is transient data, meaning that at least *less* of the social graph would be exposed.
  989. phryk And I should now really get to work. :F
  990. phryk But one last question: Zash, you mentioned OMEMO key shuffling issues when deactivating the roster – is this also an issue when a user is only using one device/client to access the server or a multi-client problem?
  991. Zash PEP depends on presence for signaling that that you wish to receive various kinds of data, including some OMEMO stuff, which you would probably have to poll for then.
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  996. phryk Ah, so that would necessitate client modifications, am I understanding that right?
  997. wgreenhouse has joined
  998. Zash Adding a new device / OMEMO identity might need some trickery to ensure the news goes to "contacts" who need to know
  999. Zash Excuse my word orders, am sleepy.
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  1001. phryk Ye, but that sounds like it should also be covered by temporary activation of the roster when adding a new device and subsequently deactivating it again and wiping it after things are done. :)
  1002. phryk No problem, get some sleep. :)
  1003. Zash "temporary activation of the roster" makes no sense to me
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  1006. phryk Oh. My understanding was that I could normally have the roster for a user deactivated, then activated it with the original client then syncing it up to the server and the server syncing it to all other clients logged into that account.
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  1010. phryk Oh. My understanding was that I could normally have the roster for a user deactivated, then activate it so the original client then syncs its contacts etc. up to the server and the server syncing them to all other clients logged into that account.
  1011. Zash rosters are distributed data structures that live on both your and your contacts servers and is kept in sync by stuff
  1012. Zash I meant like, when opening a chat, poll for devices at that time instead of relying on notifications about new devices
  1013. Zash or when receiving a message with some new device tag, if that is a thing that exists
  1014. Zash not an OMEMO expert 🀷️
  1015. phryk Okay, seems I need to read more specs to reason better about this.^^
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  1017. moparisthebest could always go back to OTR :P
  1018. moparisthebest then you don't need roster, carbons, mam, *or* a good user experience
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  1020. dwd Maybe we could use a blockchain?
  1021. dwd I mean, i've no idea what for, but imagine the VC funding we'd get.
  1022. moparisthebest XSFCoin when ?
  1023. mh has left
  1024. moparisthebest I tried to propose Conversations rolling out ConCoin but no one jumped on the idea :'(
  1025. dwd Good name, though.
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  1027. Zash Not Coinversations?
  1028. dwd Nah. *Con* Coin is the most honest name for a cryptocurrency I've ever heard.
  1029. Zash Clearly honesty is what sank the idea
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  1033. moparisthebest ok but when are we going to start minting NFTs of the jabber trademark ?
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  1036. Guus I was going to comment on the sorry state of affairs of pubs being locked down, forcing us to have conversations like these ... only to realize that most of us live in countries where lockdowns have already been lifted.
  1037. phryk At least the club I want to go to is still closed :<
  1038. phryk No raves for me T_T
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  1040. Zash Lockdowns? We just had stern recommendations.
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  1042. moparisthebest why go to a pub when you can drink at home and chat on XMPP though...
  1043. Zash I did drink .. julmust
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  1054. wurstsalat TIL
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