XSF Discussion - 2022-01-28


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  823. phryk

    Is the roster defined in core?

  824. BASSGOD has left

  825. phryk

    I was remember talking about encrypted rosters with someone a couple months back and they said it wouldn't be possible because the server has to decide who's authorized to messages to an account on it – but I just realized JIDs in rosters could easily be hashed and still be used for that check. This way, server compromises wouldn't expose users' social graphs in the network.

  826. Zash

    The other RFC

  827. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#roster

  828. phryk

    I was remembering talking about encrypted rosters with someone a couple months back and they said it wouldn't be possible because the server has to decide who's authorized to messages to an account on it – but I just realized JIDs in rosters could easily be hashed and still be used for that check. This way, server compromises wouldn't expose users' social graphs in the network.

  829. phryk

    Ah, that would break rosters for new devices…

  830. moparisthebest

    > because the server has to decide who's authorized to messages to an account on it

  831. moparisthebest

    what? servers don't allow or disallow messages based on rosters

  832. moparisthebest

    at least, good servers

  833. Zash

    There were ideas by someone (waqas? me? someone else) about ways store things on the server in some form so that the administrator could not tell anything from it.

  834. moparisthebest

    you can do client-side only rosters already, no spec changes needed, messaging still works

  835. Zash

    Personally I feel like, if you want this, are you really sure you want XMPP and servers at all then?

  836. millesimus has left

  837. moparisthebest

    what's the point though? assuming an evil server, they still have 100% of people you communicate with ?

  838. Zash

    moparisthebest, but then the evil untrustworthy server of doooooom will still see who you send messages to!!!!!!

  839. moparisthebest

    we've talked about a way where your server only knows the remote server of your contact, not the actual person there, but that's really only helpful when 2 people are using different large servers, so not all that often...

  840. phryk

    I'm not assuming an evil server, I'm assuming a good server being raided and forensically analyzed.

  841. mh has joined

  842. Zash

    full disk encryption

  843. moparisthebest

    ^

  844. phryk

    Aye, and I can set up swatd. But even case-opened sensors are easy to bypass.

  845. wgreenhouse has left

  846. moparisthebest

    so they don't have your roster just everyone you every communicate with post-raid ? meh

  847. moparisthebest

    assuming no logs that is

  848. Zash

    What actually happens: Your phone gets SWAT'd and you had all your conspiracies in plain text there.

  849. pep.

    moparisthebest, you can assume good operators/server being taken down. That's often an option critics overlook

  850. junaid has joined

  851. pep.

    FDE doesn't help much here either

  852. phryk

    Most phones come with encryption of this data if I'm not mistaken. Also they're right at hand so switching them of when a raid occurs is trivial. For a server in a diferent country that's completely unrealistic.

  853. phryk

    Most phones come with encryption of this data if I'm not mistaken. Also they're right at hand so switching them off when a raid occurs is trivial. For a server in a diferent country that's completely unrealistic.

  854. moparisthebest

    most phones come with trivial visit-a-webpage root vulns too so none of that mattercs

  855. pep.

    If suddenly police gets access to the encryption key because operators are legally forced to. At least admins wouldn't get access to user storage unless somebody changes the software at this point, obviously

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  866. pep.

    But canary and all that

  867. Zash

    Or we could focus on how useful it is to _trust the server_

  868. Zash

    Trust in the server, the server is good!

  869. phryk

    moparisthebest, just because one avanue of attack is possible doesn't mean you shouldn't protect against others? If you take that root, all security is pointless because perfect security is impossible…

  870. moparisthebest

    pep., are you saying admins would be forced to turn over the server to police but police wouldn't change the software to log the info they want ? that seems... crazy

  871. pep.

    Not saying that

  872. pep.

    I'm saying even if they would, birds would be singing

  873. moparisthebest

    phryk, you still haven't said what you are trying to protect against, or why you think not storing your roster on the server helps

  874. pep.

    But that's not a use-case to overlook anyway

  875. moparisthebest

    this whole "canary" concept seems highly questionable to me

  876. pep.

    You can trust the operators and not trust the cops

  877. moparisthebest

    you shouldn't trust anyone

  878. pep.

    (s/cops/governments, or..)

  879. moparisthebest

    *but* your server needs basic routing information to get your message from A to B, nothing can be done about this

  880. pep.

    You have to trust people at some point, you just have to choose who

  881. moparisthebest

    not even signal handwavy but muh SGX helps

  882. pep.

    SGX lol

  883. pep.

    So trusting Intel is fine by trusting my operator isn't?

  884. pep.

    So trusting Intel is fine but trusting my operator isn't?

  885. Zash

    Let's all just go read 'Reflections on trusting trust' again until we realize it's all doomed and we can go do fun things instead

  886. phryk

    moparisthebest, following scenario: cops raid the provider, leave the server running (i.e. full-disk encryption not being worth much since the key is in memory) and extract data for it. logs i can deactivate, but the rosters are extremely valuable metadata.

  887. moparisthebest

    pep., did you read my message wrong? I specifically said SGX *does not* help, despite signal's claimns otherwise :P

  888. pep.

    Ok then

  889. Daniel

    Didn't signal have a canary and then they removed it but people kept using and recommending it?

  890. millesimus has joined

  891. pep.

    ><

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  893. dwd

    Zash, Given I've spent the last month and a half writing a filter in Metre to strip e2ee, I'm thinking how useful it'd be to have server-side OMEMO now. All the benefits of OMEMO (for the other people that might need it), all the convenience and UX of not having it for me when my server it just over there _points toward the garage_

  894. moparisthebest

    dwd, so police just extract data once and don't change the server to logging?

  895. Zash

    dwd, YESSSS!

  896. dwd

    moparisthebest, How do the police get my server without asking me very nicely and having a warrant?

  897. pep.

    They can probably accuse you of terrorism and get away with it, and you'll get your server back.. never

  898. moparisthebest

    idk I thought we were talking about secret warrants served to providers

  899. moparisthebest

    pep., in that case FDE saves you

  900. Zash

    Not legal advice: Put your server in a drawer. I read somewhere that it takes an extra-specific warrant to go into drawers.

  901. Daniel

    > moparisthebest, How do the police get my server without asking me very nicely and having a warrant? Immenent danger?

  902. Daniel

    Something smelled like weed?

  903. dwd

    moparisthebest, Sure, if you don't run your own server your threat model might be different.

  904. chronosx88 has joined

  905. Zash

    Or you at some point in the last 90 year violated someones copyright?

  906. dwd

    Daniel, None of that would give them access to my server.

  907. pep.

    It's not like we didn't have proof by now that cops aren't here to protect the people but governments in place

  908. moparisthebest

    right, I'm wondering what specific scenario encrypted and/or client-side roster protects a user against, anything I can come up with seems contrived and unlikely

  909. phryk

    moparisthebest, yes, i am assuming that i can either destroy the DNS entries (at least temporarily) myself and get the word out about a compromise or have somebody else do it for me.

  910. pep.

    Riseup had a nice page detailing their use-case, trying to find it again

  911. moparisthebest

    riseup's usecase was "we are lazy, just use signal" iirc

  912. dwd

    Daniel, Or at least, none of that would give access to my server but not my phone.

  913. pep.

    moparisthebest, no?

  914. Daniel

    I do like server side omemo though (for people how run their own)

  915. moparisthebest

    luckily as the user of an xmpp client, you don't need to use the roster at all

  916. moparisthebest

    so this problem is already solved, right phryk ?

  917. ti_gj06 has left

  918. Daniel

    And I'm super glad I don't have plain text logs of the shit people send over my (public) server

  919. BASSGOD has joined

  920. Zash

    Server-side OMEMO↔OX translation?

  921. dwd

    Daniel, Right. E2ee protects providers very well, which is why WhatsApp do it.

  922. phryk

    moparisthebest, can you give me a source on that?

  923. moparisthebest

    phryk, sure, open a client, don't add anyone to your contact list, done ?

  924. dwd

    Zash, Well, it's all heavywieght TLS from your phone to you anyway, right?

  925. phryk

    and yes, if users can opt into that and then be sure the server doesn't store their roster, then that already solves the problem.

  926. pep.

    dwd, I'm curious though if they'd risk decrypting it server-side, or is your current work not related?

  927. pep.

    Otherwise they couldn't claim plausible deniability

  928. phryk

    moparisthebest, wow, how perfectly usable. :F

  929. moparisthebest

    phryk, why isn't it ?

  930. Zash

    dwd: ChaCha!

  931. moparisthebest

    you can message whoever you want at any time without adding them to your roster/contact list

  932. phryk

    because then they don't have a contact list which is an essential feature?

  933. moparisthebest

    it's completely optional

  934. Zash

    you can have the contact list on the client side

  935. Zash

    ignore presence

  936. qwestion has left

  937. moparisthebest

    most clients already do this

  938. dwd

    pep., It's a very long story, but the decryption is for the purposes of increasing security.

  939. Zash

    .. figure out how the heck to get omemo key shuffling to work again?

  940. phryk

    Zash, is that a speciic XEP?

  941. dwd

    pep., TL;DR: Different people and organisations have different threat models.

  942. phryk

    Zash, is that a specific XEP?

  943. Zash

    phryk, no

  944. moparisthebest

    at least in gajim+dino+conversations if you start a conversation with someone, it'll stay there, even if you don't add them to your roster

  945. moparisthebest

    what are you missing exactly ?

  946. Zash

    phryk, you are aware that almost everything apart from XMPP Core is optional, right?

  947. phryk

    Yes.

  948. Zash

    You don't need rosters or presence to send messages

  949. phryk

    But I haven't ever seen any client making this optional.

  950. moparisthebest

    I've never seen a client where it *was not* optional ?

  951. dwd

    phryk, Oh, I have. But then, I've seen some weird clients.

  952. moparisthebest

    at least gajim, dino, conversations make it completely optional

  953. pep.

    "the decryption is for the purposes of increasing security." ah right :D

  954. dwd

    moparisthebest, Well, most clients use the roster, even if most don't mandate it.

  955. pep.

    Even if it were true, it's really fishy

  956. wgreenhouse has joined

  957. moparisthebest

    right, but none of these 3 *force* you to add people to a roster to chat with them, or keep the conversation open

  958. phryk

    moparisthebest, one of us is consistently having a severe misunderstanding.

  959. pep.

    moparisthebest, wrong? I think Conversations forces you to add somebody in the roster to open a chat with them

  960. pep.

    I've been annoyed by that in the past

  961. pep.

    Or you managed to open the tab another way then it's all good

  962. Daniel

    pep.: yes and no. If you unload mod_roster it will still work fine

  963. pep.

    If you managed to open the tab another way then it's all good

  964. Wojtek has left

  965. pep.

    So it needs to be added locally?

  966. phryk

    if i add someone to my contact list in dino, gajim et al – they go into the server-side roster, right? There's no setting in the client that lets me disable synchronizing my local contact list with the server roster, right?

  967. pep.

    (namely biboumi users. I don't want them in my roster)

  968. Zash

    If you somehow manage to invoke xmpp:someone-not@your-roster.example then you can still send messages

  969. pep.

    (or myself)

  970. pep.

    Or it's just that there's no UI for it, and yeah you need to workaround no UI

  971. phryk

    Daniel, so clients will (more or less) work fine if the roster is disabled on the server-side?

  972. moparisthebest

    phryk, so don't add them to your contact list? just start a conversation with them without doing that instead

  973. Daniel

    > Daniel, so clients will (more or less) work fine if the roster is disabled on the server-side? Yes

  974. phryk

    moparisthebest, having a contact list is stil not optional.

  975. mh has left

  976. Daniel

    Quicksy.im almost didn't have one

  977. phryk

    Daniel, Okay, that's all the info I needed. Then I can probably implement an ad-hoc or something command that let's users temporarily activate the roster for example for multi-client contact sync and turn it off and wipe the data from the server afterwards.

  978. wgreenhouse has left

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  980. phryk

    So that'd put users into control of how much of their data they are okay with being persistently on the server. And being able to prefer either comfort or security.

  981. moparisthebest

    phryk, sorry why is it not optional ?

  982. phryk

    moparisthebest, because otherwise UX is dogshit? o_O

  983. moparisthebest

    phryk, I think we are talking past each other, you are saying "users need it for good UX so it's not optional" and I'm saying "it's optional because they don't have to use it" ?

  984. moparisthebest

    users also need MAM for good UX and that involves you keeping all their messages + contacts on the server too so Β―\_(ツ)_/Β―

  985. phryk

    OMEMO'd messages aren't on there in plaintext. And I have the extended mod_e2e_policy module for that.

  986. moparisthebest

    OMEMO'd messages sender/reciever are there in plaintext, ie, everything that'd be in your roster

  987. phryk

    But yes, I should make sure that MAM is kept short and wiped. IIRC that's a Prosody setting that my setup already has…

  988. phryk

    So MAM is transient data, meaning that at least *less* of the social graph would be exposed.

  989. phryk

    And I should now really get to work. :F

  990. phryk

    But one last question: Zash, you mentioned OMEMO key shuffling issues when deactivating the roster – is this also an issue when a user is only using one device/client to access the server or a multi-client problem?

  991. Zash

    PEP depends on presence for signaling that that you wish to receive various kinds of data, including some OMEMO stuff, which you would probably have to poll for then.

  992. mh has left

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  996. phryk

    Ah, so that would necessitate client modifications, am I understanding that right?

  997. wgreenhouse has joined

  998. Zash

    Adding a new device / OMEMO identity might need some trickery to ensure the news goes to "contacts" who need to know

  999. Zash

    Excuse my word orders, am sleepy.

  1000. restive_monk has left

  1001. phryk

    Ye, but that sounds like it should also be covered by temporary activation of the roster when adding a new device and subsequently deactivating it again and wiping it after things are done. :)

  1002. phryk

    No problem, get some sleep. :)

  1003. Zash

    "temporary activation of the roster" makes no sense to me

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  1006. phryk

    Oh. My understanding was that I could normally have the roster for a user deactivated, then activated it with the original client then syncing it up to the server and the server syncing it to all other clients logged into that account.

  1007. mh has left

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  1010. phryk

    Oh. My understanding was that I could normally have the roster for a user deactivated, then activate it so the original client then syncs its contacts etc. up to the server and the server syncing them to all other clients logged into that account.

  1011. Zash

    rosters are distributed data structures that live on both your and your contacts servers and is kept in sync by stuff

  1012. Zash

    I meant like, when opening a chat, poll for devices at that time instead of relying on notifications about new devices

  1013. Zash

    or when receiving a message with some new device tag, if that is a thing that exists

  1014. Zash

    not an OMEMO expert 🀷️

  1015. phryk

    Okay, seems I need to read more specs to reason better about this.^^

  1016. wgreenhouse has joined

  1017. moparisthebest

    could always go back to OTR :P

  1018. moparisthebest

    then you don't need roster, carbons, mam, *or* a good user experience

  1019. millesimus has left

  1020. dwd

    Maybe we could use a blockchain?

  1021. dwd

    I mean, i've no idea what for, but imagine the VC funding we'd get.

  1022. moparisthebest

    XSFCoin when ?

  1023. mh has left

  1024. moparisthebest

    I tried to propose Conversations rolling out ConCoin but no one jumped on the idea :'(

  1025. dwd

    Good name, though.

  1026. mh has joined

  1027. Zash

    Not Coinversations?

  1028. dwd

    Nah. *Con* Coin is the most honest name for a cryptocurrency I've ever heard.

  1029. Zash

    Clearly honesty is what sank the idea

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  1033. moparisthebest

    ok but when are we going to start minting NFTs of the jabber trademark ?

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  1036. Guus

    I was going to comment on the sorry state of affairs of pubs being locked down, forcing us to have conversations like these ... only to realize that most of us live in countries where lockdowns have already been lifted.

  1037. phryk

    At least the club I want to go to is still closed :<

  1038. phryk

    No raves for me T_T

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  1040. Zash

    Lockdowns? We just had stern recommendations.

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  1042. moparisthebest

    why go to a pub when you can drink at home and chat on XMPP though...

  1043. Zash

    I did drink .. julmust

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  1054. wurstsalat

    TIL

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