XSF Discussion - 2022-01-30


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  317. mdosch pep.: I don't understand how clients negotiate it. I think it should be users negotiating it. Maybe like OTR in Pidgin worked, where you got a message "user x wants to start an OTR session" and if you also wanted to use OTR you started the session.
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  339. Neustradamus OTR plugin exists in Psi/Psi+
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  356. pep. Neustradamus, I'm sure you mean well, but this is not the point.
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  359. pep. mdosch, I don't have an answer right now. I don't think I'm really fond of exposing it this way to the user. Also that doesn't solve my problem anyway. A user/client can still miss the negotiation message
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  466. dwd flow, All domains of a server *can* use the same s2s connection via multiplexing (aka piggybacking), but it's broken in several servers. Openfire, I think, gets it right, as does Metre. But Metre has to have an explicit switch to turn it off for some/all peers because some servers just get confused.
  467. Zash Read: Yes, but actually no.
  468. dwd Zash, Well, I was being diplomatic. I only know of one popular server that can't do it properly.
  469. flow dwd, you sure have a pointer where this behavior is specified :)
  470. flow care to share?
  471. dwd flow, Well, XEP-0220 covers it in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0220.html#multiplex
  472. flow thanks!
  473. Maranda thinks Metronome has always supported stream multiplexing (at least for incoming streams)
  474. Maranda ... but never found actual implementations that used it.
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  476. Maranda So hard to know if there're any related bugs to it.
  477. Maranda The only one using it was gmail (and it worked), but that's long gone.
  478. dwd Maranda, Openfire always has, and sometimes quite aggressively multiplexes. Metre, equally, agressively multiplexes if the option's enabled. ejabberd appears to handle inbound multiplexing fine, but I can't actually recall if it does outbound, and if so whether it's doing source or target or both.
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  481. dwd Maranda, But Prosody can't handle some cases of inbound multiplexing because of the assumptions around routing of some responses - so unless you've rewritten that part I'd expect Metronome to be similarly affected.
  482. Maranda dwd: don't recall any Openfire actually ever multiplexing but good to know
  483. Maranda dwd: I rewrote most of dialback code, and multiplexing case handling in s2s.
  484. Zash I don't recall ever seeing multiplexing used by anything or anyone other than dwd, so all the multiplexing code is mostly dead and likely full of bugs by now.
  485. Maranda (Also for BIDI handling of dialback verification)
  486. Zash The intersection of bidi and dialback ... I don't even know
  487. dwd The reason Metre actively tries to multiplex if possible (and as a general reason I think it's valuable) is not only that it saves some resource on the servers but also that it makes association of network traffic with specific domains harder to a passive observer.
  488. Zash How many virtual hosts really share the same physical host? Plz can haz research 🙂
  489. dwd I suspect it also helps if you've got unusual transports in play, like XEP-0365.
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  501. dwd Zash, Well, for hosts that have both popular MUCs and lots of users, I think that's significant, as well as the mass hosting providers like conversations.im.
  502. Zash As I may have said before, I think XEP-0288 gives more benefit for less complexity than full on multiplexing.
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  553. moparisthebest dwd: I brought this up in here the other day, do you have any thoughts on multiplexing with certificate auth instead of dialback?
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  555. Zash moparisthebest: Are you aware of the thing called "dialback-without-dialback" (dwd for short)
  556. moparisthebest And a different but related question, do you know of any implementations of mux
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  560. moparisthebest Zash: yep which is ideal but requires all domains under 1 certificate
  561. Zash Which makes it equivalent to an SASL EXTERNAL exchange, except not limited to the start of the session.
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  567. moparisthebest Yes, but can't handle multiple certs
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  570. Zash Praise TLS 1.3 and the removal of renegotiation (which could let you show a different cert)!
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  573. moparisthebest Again I would have thought something like this already existed, but if not... Couldn't server A say "hey I'm bob.com and I'd like to multiplex" and server B could say "ok here's a random value, sign it with your private key and send it back to me with your certificate" ?
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  584. Zash moparisthebest, fwiw what you ask for does not exist because of the web, where application servers rarely have access to the tls certificate keys. instead they often use what amounts to dialback, or some other key that you need to fetch (whops, dialback with extra steps)
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  586. moparisthebest Seems plausible
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  597. Zash WebSub (formerly PubSubHubbub - federated push for RSS and Atom which OStatus used) does Dialback over HTTP (but it seems they purged the XEP-0220 reference) I'm unable to navigate the ActivityPub specification so I can't find where it was I saw PEM certificates embedded in JSON. Matrix has https://spec.matrix.org/v1.1/server-server-api/#retrieving-server-keys
  598. dwd moparisthebest, What Zash says, plus DANE. I did wonder about having Metre try the same endpoint to get a different cert, and then if the cert passed to try something clever with dialback, but the problem is I couldn't work out a something clever, and in any case the bulk of the time (CPU and wall-clock) is in the session start anyway. By the time you've identified that the new session is OK, you may as well just use it.
  599. Zash This^
  600. dwd moparisthebest, But yes, you could just exchange signed nonces with a certificate chain to do the same. I think TLSv1.3 would ordinarily encrypt the certificate exchange anyway, otherwise it might even offer some advantages.
  601. moparisthebest Not sure what you mean, I'm saying a method where you could use existing connections instead of start new ones would be preferable, no?
  602. Zash It would.
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  606. Zash This does mean you need access to the key outside of the code that initializes the TLS stack.
  607. moparisthebest Right, is there a problem with that?
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  610. Zash Not a problem, but friction.
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  612. moparisthebest Yea, I tend to think it'd be simpler overall though
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  616. Zash In Prosody, we don't really have much crypto stuff beyond simple hash functions. The TLS stack is fairly self-contained, we just figure out which cert and key files to use and hand those off to OpenSSL and off it goes.
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  618. Zash The API we use doesn't really let us sign arbitrary blobs or use the keys or certs for anything other than name checks.
  619. Zash This is why the crypto stuff that the Tigase push extensions needs is provided by a different OpenSSL wrapper 🙂
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