XSF Discussion - 2022-02-01

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  248. Guus Should we take down xmpp.net until a replacement becomes available? It's hardly useful anymore. Might be doing more harm than good at this point.
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  250. Zash Or just yolo flip over to the replacement?
  251. jonas’ Zash, if you handle the issue tracker
  252. MattJ What issue tracker? :)
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  255. mathieui No issue tracker no problem
  256. jonas’ probably operators@ ;)
  257. Zash Disable it. Only patches welcome!
  258. Guus I know you're joking, but we can move that to that github repo that now holds the xmpp.net projects.
  259. Guus it goes largely unused anyway
  260. Zash xmpp.net isn't an official XSF project anyway, or?
  261. Guus no - it's sources never lived in an XSF-managed repo either.
  262. Guus of course, 100% of the people working on it are XSF-affiliated... :)
  263. Guus I'm not sure if it runs on XSF hardware - it might?
  264. MattJ It does
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  266. Guus Is it worth trying to upgrade the root certs on that server, to at least get around the LE failures, or shouldn't we bother anymore?
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  268. Guus if the latter, I'd suggest taking it down for now.
  269. jonas’ the server isn't the problem, the docker container running the thing is
  270. Zash I actually tried upgrading the root cert package in the container but to no effect
  271. jonas’ you need to upgrade libssl
  272. jonas’ or remove the expired DST root
  273. Zash I don't _need_ to do anything!
  274. MattJ But upgrading libssl isn't going to fly
  275. Guus maybe not flog a dead horse
  276. Guus Here's a handy copy/paste maintenance message that we could put up: https://gist.github.com/pitch-gist/2999707?permalink_comment_id=3984681#gistcomment-3984681
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  278. Guus Does it make things easier if I replace index.php in xmppoke-frontend with that?
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  282. MattJ I suspect that all-round "easier" would be a warning banner that allows the site to still be used
  283. MattJ Otherwise we'll be fending off "why doesn't xmpp.net work yet?" complaints endlessly
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  285. MattJ It's quite a well-used service
  286. Guus oooh, there's a common.php that holds a header
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  288. Guus which doesn't include the header :/
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  292. Guus What's an appropriate banner text?
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  294. Guus > This service has gone unmaintained for quite some time. Results generated by this service might not be accurate.
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  296. MattJ How about: > This service is unmaintained and a replacement is planned. Meanwhile, results and advice generated by this service might not be accurate.
  297. Zash :+1:
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  300. Kev Just unlurking momentarily to say "LGTM".
  301. Guus https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke-frontend/pull/14
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  303. Guus oh
  304. Guus search/replacing...
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  310. Guus I wouldn't know how to roll this out, so I'm hoping for someone else to get to that (eventually).
  311. Guus (also, feel free to discard / completely replace - just wanted to get something tangible started).
  312. MattJ I've no idea either, which probably means nobody does :)
  313. emus Reading this: Can we discuss paying someone to do this task regarding our infrastructure and further with important projects if interference with XSF members is high (xmpp.net)
  314. Zash It was Docker hub builds before, I think
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  316. MattJ We might try building on the machine, but I don't remember what the environment is like on there these days
  317. Zash That should be doable
  318. Guus emus: I'm not categorically against that, if iteam supports that idea. Unsure if iteam has been / should be given budget for that.
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  325. jonas’ fwiw, I built the /preview/ thing on the machine itself, and it was fine
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  327. Zash Building was doable
  328. Zash Now just have to figure out how to replace the running container
  329. Zash Eh, these old scripts
  330. Zash I broke i t
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  332. Zash Back
  333. Zash (old version)
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  335. Zash Theory: This can't actually be built at all anymore
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  337. Guus ?!
  338. Zash It reported some PHP path problem
  339. Zash I'm not someone who debugs PHP problems anymore, for the sake of my own sanity.
  340. Guus ugh. Is it doable to shell into that container and apply the changes in the PR manually to each file?
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  343. Zash I guess
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  348. Zash Guus: `curl | patch` done 🙂
  349. Guus Thank you.
  350. Zash Thank _you_
  351. Guus jonas` mentioned something about removing something on that machine. Would that be easy to do in the same way?
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  353. Zash 🤷️
  354. mjk ITT: modern humans trying to patch ancient alien technology
  355. Zash Hnnng
  356. Guus I'm a Java dev. Docker is futuristic mumblejumble to me.
  357. Zash https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/blob/master/Dockerfile#L1 I'm going to drink my coffee instead for now
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  364. mjk > FROM debian:stretch Wow, it _is_ ancient
  365. jonas’ don't look at the things it does to libssl
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  368. Neustradamus It is possible to look this PR: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke-frontend/pull/11?
  369. jonas’ Guus, it would have to be removed inside the container, not on the machine.
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  371. Guus jonas’ - I know, I was overextending my ask of Zash who was already manually applying changes in the running container to get a warning banner included.
  372. jonas’ ack
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  375. emus Yes, would be great what iTeam would think about it
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  516. emus any comments from iTeam on this. Would it be appreciated?
  517. moparisthebest Neustradamus, I'm not clear from that PR what the goal was or why adding an extra link is helpful ? that's probably why you got no comments
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  519. MattJ emus, the board have previously agreed to allocate <undefined> resources to iteam, but requested that the first step would be defining the scope of the work and the resources required to accomplish it
  520. MattJ Nobody has done that, and doing so is extra work compared to just doing what we're doing
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  522. MattJ Which isn't going terribly IMHO
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  525. emus But for example the deployment script for the website?
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  528. MattJ As I said, I don't believe it's going too badly. From what I can tell, on average the website gets deployed within an hour or two of someone requesting a deployment.
  529. MattJ Deployment itself now only takes a minute or so of someone's time
  530. MattJ It would be nice if it was automated, but that required more than a minute of work
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  532. MattJ It would be nice if it was automated, but that requires more than a minute of work
  533. emus Yes sure, it works fine, but still. You shouldnt tdo that. right?
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  535. Zash A rare time when there are _two_ relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1319/ https://xkcd.com/1205/
  536. MattJ It doesn't bother me that much, I don't know if it bothers the other iteam members to do manual deploys
  537. emus I know. but also xmpp.net for example. taking it down is not good I think and shows our limitations dunno how many other issues are open
  538. Zash xmpp.net is not an XSF project
  539. Zash It just happens to be hosted on XSF hardware for some historical reason
  540. moparisthebest leaving it up seems far worse considering how it's totally broken ?
  541. Sam Worked on by only XSF people, running on XSF hardware… if it quacks like a duck.
  542. moparisthebest 98% of servers can only get a T right?
  543. MattJ That's the problem, it's not *totally* broken
  544. emus Zash: I know, but a certain important thing I think
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  546. moparisthebest just broken enough to give the impression there are 0 trusted xmpp servers
  547. Sam (FWIW I agree that leaving it up feels quite bad and it should probably go away, looks really bad as is)
  548. MattJ I personally would rather the banner we have now than deal with a flood of complaints about it going away 100% until we get the replacement up
  549. Guus as an aside: outsourcing xmpp.net is probably hard/expensive because of very specific knowledge that is needed to maintain it.
  550. MattJ Of course if consensus is to take it down, and someone volunteers to be the point of contact for these complaints... :)
  551. moparisthebest dev_null@xmpp.org
  552. Zash But what's left to "get the replacement up" ?
  553. MattJ I would rather move forwards with the new one than turn off the existing one at this point
  554. Sam I know a person who specializes in fixing / maintaining old PHP stuff that the original authors have abandoned; I don't know his rates, but I'd be happy to introduce people if that's something we're considering
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  556. MattJ We're not considering that
  557. Sam oh, "replacement" not "fixing", nevermind
  558. Zash I mean, there's the secret preview. It works.
  559. MattJ PHP is not the issue
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  561. Sam Sorry, saw a comment about that a while ago and have just been kind of sort of passively following the conversation.
  562. MattJ The whole thing is built around, for example, a patched libssl from 200something
  563. Sam goes back to idling
  564. Zash For some value of "works", which may or may not be considered production-ready
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  568. Guus I'm not saying that this is a good idea, but if we were to want to outsource xmpp.net, we could ask the original authors for a quote. That said, having a suitable replacement is fine by me - although I do worry a bit that that replacement will eventually suffer the same fate.
  569. Guus We'd at least have had a functional service again before it does, though.
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  571. moparisthebest new maintainable partially-works seems better than old unmaintainable known-broken, why not just stand it up ?
  572. Zash there is still the question of what's missing from the 80% working new thing
  573. jonas’ the main bits, IIRC, missing are handling of edge cases, scoring and the badges
  574. jonas’ the main bits missing, IIRC, are handling of edge cases, scoring and the badges
  575. Guus scoring, apparently. Unless 'TBD' is an interesting acronym for a new type of score. :)
  576. jonas’ I hate the scoring
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  579. MattJ "How to score 'TBD' on xmpp.net using Prosody"
  580. Zash Is the scoring something that could be done as part of testssl.sh?
  581. jonas’ the scoring of ssllabs is underdocumented and looks sane at first, but the farther you get down the existing document, the more it becomes just a set of rules for A/B/C/D instead of the sensible percentage/weighting thing they had initially
  582. Zash comes across https://github.com/drwetter/testssl.sh/issues/1108
  583. moparisthebest well right now the only score anyone can get is T right ?
  584. jonas’ moparisthebest, if you're using LE, anyway
  585. moparisthebest ok, right now the only score 98% of people can get is T right? :)
  586. Zash Mouhahaha "Don't use LE" 👹️
  587. moparisthebest release the new thing giving everyone a T and we haven't lost anything
  588. Zash No, better that T, TBD
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  590. jonas’ moparisthebest, if you wanna poke at it: https://xmpp.net/preview/
  591. jonas’ and https://xmpp.net/preview/scan/result/19 already seems to exhibit some weird edge case because there's no TLS scan for that one
  592. Zash https://github.com/drwetter/testssl.sh/issues/100 too
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  595. Sam huh, glad to have this minimal replacement service available already. I thought TLS 1.0 had been disabled, but apparently not.
  596. jonas’ code is here https://github.com/horazont/testxmpp/ if anyone wants to file issues
  597. jonas’ code is here https://github.com/horazont/testxmpp/ if anyone wants to ~file issues~ send PRs
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  599. moparisthebest I mean that looks great, replace xmpp.net with it already ?
  600. moparisthebest TBD isn't any worse than T
  601. jonas’ it doesn't seem to do TLS scans on s2s currently for some reason
  602. Zash > "TBD" > "T" true
  603. jonas’ and to be honest I'd prefer if this wasn't a bus factor one thing
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  606. Zash While xmpp.net is bus factor zero?
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  608. jonas’ yes, but it doesn't lie on my shoulders
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  613. junaid in case anyone missed it, following the workaround gets you an A again .. https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/issues/10#issuecomment-932029749
  614. Zash https://xmpp.net/preview/scan/result/22 s2s seems to work?
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  616. moparisthebest isn't that the case already jonas’ ? but at least this one is maintainable
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  618. moparisthebest junaid, right, but that breaks the other set, old Android iirc ?
  619. Zash mellium.chat doesn't seem to have any c2s so the result for that seems expected
  620. moparisthebest one way breaks old openssl, the other way breaks old Android
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  625. Guus I don't expect us to get to any kind of ideal scenario. Can we get to an acceptable one, including functional requirements, but also things like jonas’ understandable reluctance to be the bus factor?
  626. jonas’ junaid, that workaround also locks out older androids (older than <7 IIRC)
  627. jonas’ junaid, that workaround also locks out older androids (older than 7 IIRC)
  628. jonas’ Zash, ah ok, then it just took a while. edge cases!
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  630. MattJ junaid, so it comes down to what the admin prefers: getting nice scores on xmpp.net, or preventing users with older phones from accessing their service :)
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  632. MattJ junaid, so it comes down to what the admin prefers: getting nice scores on xmpp.net, or allowing users with older phones to access their service :)
  633. junaid ic ic. not a major problem for servers that primarily will only be accessed via s2s though. but for everyone else, it's gonna be a bit painful.
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  637. Zash I'm not sure that catering to people who run outdated OpenSSL is the wisest choice
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  640. jonas’ (or ejabberd)
  641. MattJ Then xmpp.net is not broken :)
  642. Sam (mellium.chat is just a MUC/anon auth service, so that all seems right)
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  649. junaid i'm following with Zash. score according to modern SSL standards. but maybe we introduce a new section to include some notes about edge cases? e.g. On C2S, "This service certs may not be trusted on Android <7"
  650. junaid ofc the "T" problem needs to be fixed
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  652. junaid maybe silly question, but is our actual scoring process formally documented somewhere? or is the code the single source of truth?
  653. Zash what scoring process?
  654. Zash the one used by xmpp.net?
  655. Zash based on an old version of the ssllabs scoring method
  656. Zash jonas’, it seems to choke on my ipv6-only thing
  657. Guus Zash: what didn't build for you earlier today?
  658. Zash > b37bc4b830fa Fatal error: Only IPv6 address(es) for "use.ipv6.cerdale.zash.se." available, maybe add "-6" to /usr/local/bin/testssl > b37bc4b830fa WARNING:testxmpp.testssl.daemon:coordinator rejected our result: {...}
  659. Guus xmppoke builds from scratch for me.
  660. Zash Guus: frontend
  661. Guus ah ok
  662. Zash I'm using podman, not docker, which might be why. It built something on the xmpp.net server, but it did not work correctly.
  663. jonas’ Zash, meh, it doesn't auto-detect v6ness?
  664. jonas’ > -6 also use IPv6. Works only with supporting OpenSSL version and IPv6 connectivity
  665. jonas’ ok
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  667. jonas’ should be easy to add
  668. Zash It also spits out a HUGE reject thing in some pythonesque format that seems too big to paste here
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  671. Zash https://paste.debian.net/plain/1229197
  672. jonas’ yeah, that's ok
  673. emus MattJ: I am also worried that no task will be touched that should be done, but no one wants to spend time on it. Or ensures we keep up operation/knowledge. Maybe one day people maybe just leave
  674. MattJ I think between current iteam members there's not too much that only a single individual knows (or that can't be figured out easily enough)
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  677. Sam UI nit: it would be nice if "c2s" and "s2s" were checkboxes and a single report on a single page was created if you chose both.
  678. jonas’ that's not a nit, that would be a complete data model redesign ;)
  679. Sam (if anyone is or does decide to work on this, that is)
  680. jonas’ or at least something considerable effort I suppose
  681. Sam Is the data model that tied into the UI?
  682. jonas’ the data model only knows one type per scan
  683. Sam Anyways, still a nit pick. Doesn't matter how huge the task is if it's a nit pick it's not the end of the world if it doesn't get done, just something that would be nice but doesn't really need to change.
  684. jonas’ right
  685. Sam But sure, if it's a lot of work probably not worth it for a nit.
  686. jonas’ (I double-checked, the scan type is an inherent property of the scan)
  687. jonas’ (though the UI could attempt to tie together s2s and c2s results somehow)
  688. Sam It could just start two scans and all you'd change is the report display code
  689. jonas’ yep
  690. Sam oops, yes, that
  691. jonas’ ^5
  692. jonas’ except that I don't like doing much logic in UI code ;)
  693. jonas’ Sam, feel free to dump it here: https://github.com/horazont/testxmpp/
  694. jonas’ Sam, feel free to dump it here: https://github.com/horazont/testxmpp/issues/
  695. Sam I would think the logic would just be "add an <h1>c2s</h1> and print that template, do the same for s2s below it" or something, but obviously I haven't looked at anything in here
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  699. jonas’ oh yeah that'd be simple, though I'd then rather link the other scan
  700. jonas’ (like the original xmpp.net currently does)
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  703. Sam yah, could be as simple as that
  704. jonas’ I thought you meant something more sophisticated
  705. jonas’ like comparison tables or somesuch
  706. jonas’ still, file an issue because I can't work on that immediately
  707. Guus I might be going against my own advice to beat a dead horse, but bear with me: I've modified the xmppoke Dockerfile to now build against the latest HEAD of Openssl's repository (instead of the outdated fork it used up until now). Openssl builds without errors, with largely the same configure arguments. Is that expected to resolve the 'we need to update libssl' requirement?
  708. Sam wilco; no pressure obviously, was just a thought because on xmpp.net and this I pretty much always immediately start both
  709. Zash Guus, but the outdated fork was intentional, to get SSL 2.0 support
  710. Sam Do we need to know exactly what versions of old SSL are supported? Maybe just show newer supported things and then say "we got an error that an old no-longer-supported thing is used too! This is bad!"?
  711. Guus How does the replacement service offer SSL 2.0 support?
  712. Zash Guus, it uses testssl.sh and I don't know how it does that check
  713. Zash testssl.sh being an active project that we can use instead of duplicate (it's similar to xmppoke in scope) seems like argument enough for the replacement
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  715. Guus I'm not against a replacement at all. I'm just experimenting if with less effort, we can revive aforementioned dead horse.
  716. Guus or at least make it slightly less dead.
  717. Guus If that'd only mean loosing SSL 2.0 support, then I'm with Sam. If I can get it to run at all, that is.
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  719. Sam huh, my domain does not want to show up in the s2s tests list on the preview even though I'm pretty sure the scan has completed successfully twice (not that it matters, just FYI)
  720. Guus although I'm now running into issues with building luasec, I think
  721. Zash Guus, it's outdated forks all the way down I'm afraid
  722. Zash Sam, did you put your user jid in there?
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  727. Sam just the domain
  728. Zash https://xmpp.net/preview/scan/result/29 how did this happen then?
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  731. Sam oops, weird, maybe I typed it wrong the first time. Either way, this one worked: https://xmpp.net/preview/scan/result/30
  732. mdosch Seems the testxmpp preview doesn't like direct tls on port 80 ^^ Although I checked with a client that it works. Maybe it doesn't do ALPN? https://xmpp.net/preview/scan/result/23
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  746. Zash quite possibly
  747. Zash Is it Python or who's not rejecting '@' in domain names?
  748. Guus switched to non-forked luasec (which probably breaks more), but it now builds.
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  750. Guus https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/pull/11
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  759. Neustradamus moparisthebest: The xmppoke PR number 11 is to have the xmpp.net at left part, client link on C2S part and server link on S2S part - https://xmpp.net/ - https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=domain.tld&type=client - https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=domain.tld&type=server
  760. adiaholic has left
  761. Neustradamus I have updated the description, thanks for your comment moparisthebest :)
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  763. Neustradamus It is linked to: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke-frontend/issues/9
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  765. moparisthebest Neustradamus, but that code is abandoned and work is being done to replace it, why change the layout?
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  773. Sam Why wouldn't the whole badge link to one place? That's just needlessly confusing.
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  795. Guus I've got the old xmpp.net with updated openssl running on my local host, but scheduling a check won't work. Does any of the docker containers keep logfiles?
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  797. Zash Look into `docker logs` I guess
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  799. Guus that doesn't give more information other than the probe has exited with error code 1.
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  801. Guus ah, the poker can be invoked from the command line
  802. Guus "look ma! I'm doin' LUA!"
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  806. moparisthebest oh no, he's angered the gods of capitalization...
  807. Guus which may or may not have been intentional
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  810. Guus `lua: xmppoke.lua:5406: attempt to index field 'x509' (a nil value)`
  811. Guus that line being:
  812. Guus `local cert_load = require "ssl".x509.load;`
  813. Guus any clue?
  814. Guus meh, in over my head. Commented on the PR with findings
  815. moparisthebest the ssl module doesn't have that field anymore, but past that...
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  853. jonas’ run
  854. jonas’ if you're touching luasec, run
  855. Zash Remember a while back when I said it was unmaintained forks all the way down?
  856. jonas’ mdosch, it indeed does not do ALPN
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  858. Zash That may have been an evolutionary dead end, it's `require"ssl".loadcertificate` now.
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  864. mjk > run > if you're touching luasec, run Is that a general advice or specific to xmppoke? 'Cause I have hopes of upstreaming some stuff 'ere
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  866. guus.der.kinderen > Remember a while back when I said it was unmaintained forks all the way down? Naive me is hoping that all pertinent changes haven been merged upstream, and/or have been made irrelevant by later changes, and/or have only minor functional impact. That's why I was trying to move back to the upstream projects of the forks.
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  868. Zash What part of "unmaintained forks all the way down" was unclear? Forks. With API differences.
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  870. jonas’ mjk, it takes a certain kind of person to touch libssl bindings in general or luasec in particular and not come out scarred.
  871. jonas’ look at poor Zash over there
  872. mjk Ah, it's alright then, I'm not getting into C bindings... yet... I hope
  873. Zash I have no idea what you are talking about, I must have suppressed those memories. Best not remind me if so.
  874. mjk Just some fluffy ol' Lua
  875. jonas’ and in context of xmppoke… stay away from it in general, I suppose
  876. Zash It is async, predating the async in Prosody.
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  976. mjk > and in context of xmppoke… stay away from it in general, I suppose Yeah, I'm good
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