XSF Discussion - 2022-02-03

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  394. emus

    Hi, calling again to consider local advertising if you know people or a good place like universities or hacker spaces: https://xmpp.org/community/gsoc-2022/ Flyer is there in English and very soon in German (more languages appreciated!)

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  480. Neustradamus

    5th December 2021, the last XSF newsletter was sent and it was named "November 2021". It will be better to have the newsletter at the end of the month (28/29 or 30/31 of the Month)? Thanks in advance.

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  482. emus

    Neustradamus: Seems like you are actually not reading the newsletter

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  484. Neustradamus

    emus: https://xmpp.org/blog/ The XMPP Blog The XMPP Newsletter November 2021 Posted on December 5, 2021 | 8 minutes | Newsletter | emus

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  496. emus

    Neustradamus: I am really not happy reading this stuff from you again. Maybe you just start doing actual the work instead of asking to do others to do it? As we have written, and did last year we are having a new years break until 5th of February which is perfectly in the release cycle. But thanks Neustradamus for the very helpful lesson here...

  497. emus

    Newsletter is working backwords on the past month

  498. emus

    Newsletter is working backwards on the past month

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  501. Neustradamus

    I think, and I am not alone, that the newsletter publication date must be before the next month (28/29 February, 30/31 for other months)

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  509. Sam

    Neustradamus: what happens if news comes out on the last day of the month, does it just not get to be in the newsletter?

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  515. moparisthebest

    Neustradamus, it's ran entirely by volunteers so it gets published when it gets published, we are very lucky one is published at all

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  517. wurstsalat

    Neustradamus: publication date should be set to when it's published

  518. emus

    Neustradamus: exactly this ^

  519. Neustradamus

    Example for Gajim, it is done before the end of the month :) - https://gajim.org/post/

  520. emus

    and I made the publication track for good reasons and also to keep people in and keep up with they voluntary work. but you seem to not understand that

  521. Sam

    Answer the question or stop posting.

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  523. emus

    Im out before I get agressive...

  524. wurstsalat

    Neustradamus: because I like to have gajim's blog post in the newsletter (that's all there is to it)

  525. wurstsalat

    Otherwise I'd have to write a blog post mid-month, which wouldn't be ok with you, I guess?

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  528. Neustradamus

    Snikket announcements are good too, example: https://snikket.org/blog/ - January 2022 server release Wed Jan 19, 2022 by Snikket Team. It is not December 2021.

  529. Sam

    We don't need more examples. Stop pasting random links.

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  531. Sam

    Mods: can we please just get Neustradamus banned from this room? We've all tried to be patient with them for years, but all they do is make volunteers feel bad and spam every project with tons of links to random unrelated things. It's infuriating.

  532. Neustradamus

    wurstsalat: It will be nice to have the XSF newsletter the 15 of the Month and named the current month.

  533. Daniel

    Just don't engage?

  534. Daniel

    Or block them locally

  535. wurstsalat needs to implement this in gajim

  536. Sam

    I have blocked them in my rooms and locally, but I can't block them in this room. Fair enough, we should all just ignore them, but seeing emus being put down by them suckered me into it. We shouldn't have to just ignore them all this time later.

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  538. Neustradamus

    My remark is good, it explain a date problem of the Newsletter

  539. Neustradamus

    It is a serious remark

  540. Sam

    Well, I mean I guess I could, but that would make the conversation look a bit weird.

  541. Daniel

    Sam: block lists can do this

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  553. Zash

    XEP-0191? Can be awkward in MUC as it doesn't (currently?) account for nickname changes and the like

  554. Sam

    The main issue though, even if I personally ignore them, is that they constantly come in here and other rooms with nonsense problems, refuse to answer any good faith questions about it, and make volunteers feel bad.

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  556. Neustradamus

    Note that Sam dislikes me because I have reviewed I-Ds.

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  559. Sam

    No, I dislike you because you spammed the ID threads and refused to answer any questions asked of you. And in here. And in my chat rooms.

  560. Neustradamus

    But it is strange other people confirm my remarks.

  561. Sam

    Anyways, I'd like to request that the moderation team or whomever handles this thing actually consider a ban or whatever other action they think is appropriate. I don't know if we have a process for that.

  562. Neustradamus

    I am not agressive, I publish only a remark about the newsletter date

  563. Daniel

    They are an elected member of the XSF which makes this complicated (tm)

  564. Sam

    ahh, I see. There is a process for that I think.

  565. Zash

    ITYM it means they can be held to a higher standard

  566. Sam


  567. Sam

    Obviously if it were *just* this conversation it wouldn't be a big deal, but this is the most minor instance of a long-standing pattern of behavior.

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  569. mdosch

    > No, I dislike you because you spammed the ID threads and refused to answer any questions asked of you. And in here. And in my chat rooms. ID?

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  571. Zash

    Anyway, it would be good to validate the CoC process, or whatever process applies

  572. jonas’

    mdosch, Internet Draft

  573. mdosch


  574. Sam

    mdosch: Internet Draft (some IETF documents that Neustradamus kept making spammy comments on)

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  585. Sam

    oops, too slow.

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  589. Sam

    I wonder if revoking their membership is something others would consider, or if I'm just overreacting? I know they've wasted a lot of my time, and I've seen them waste a lot of others time without doing any valueable work, but maybe I'm wrong? Feel free to ping me privately if you'd prefer, I'm just curious if such a thing would stand any chance of getting to a vote (it requires 5% of members to bring the vote, I believe, and 2/3 to actually remove someone)

  590. Sam

    It's a serious step, I know, so I'm legitimately curious what others think about it.

  591. Daniel

    Well there is an annual (re)election anyway.

  592. Daniel

    So if there was a majority for this you could just wait

  593. Sam

    That's a fair point; maybe if people keep voting for them they don't think it's as much of a problem as I do.

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  596. Neustradamus

    It is really strange to attack a person because this person explain and argue on a point of communication

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  598. Neustradamus

    It is really strange to attack a person because this person explains and argues on a point of communication

  599. Sam

    I think you know that's not why I'm suggesting this. You constantly spam links everywhere, ignore any questions about your position, and generally waste everyone's time.

  600. moparisthebest

    Neustradamus, I agree, do you understand my point though? that the newsletter is published whenever it's published and dated on that date, which might be "late" because it's ran by volunteers ?

  601. Sam

    (minor aside: it's also not "late" in any real sense, that's just the day emus set for it. That gives them time to get any last minute items in that happened at the end of the month and actually prepare the newsletter from the various sources that have to be pulled together.)

  602. Neustradamus

    moparisthebest: thanks for your comment. I am volunteers, I totally understand you. A correct deadline needs to be chosen, it is my original request. I think it is possible to plan it.

  603. Neustradamus

    moparisthebest: thanks for your comment. I am one of volunteers, I totally understand you. A correct deadline needs to be chosen, it is my original request. I think it is possible to plan it.

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  606. Sam

    Neustradamus: so if we pick your deadline, what happens to news that comes out at the end of the month after the newsletter has already been released, or right as the newsletter is about to be sent?

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  608. moparisthebest

    Neustradamus, you can't impose a deadline on volunteers though, I mean, you *can*, but they'll probably just leave and we wouldn't want that ?

  609. Zash

    Isn't the ultimate solution to just call it The Monthly Newsletter and never mention any month names at all?

  610. Sam

    Calling it a "solution" implies that there is a problem, but the newsletter coming out a few days after the month ends seems fine, even expected ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  612. Sam

    Neustradamus: still waiting on an answer to that question.

  613. Zash

    Sorry. The real ultimate solution is to collapse the universe into a singularity. All moths happen at the same time!

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  616. Sam

    I suspect bats would love a universe where all moths happen at the same time!

  617. Neustradamus

    Sam: "Software" teams need to adapt and there is a draft, the draft can be updated before publication at the last month day. moparisthebest: There is already a deadline but it is the next month of the Newsletter month.

  618. Kev

    Zash: It doesn't even need to be the whole universe, it could be much more localised.

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  622. wurstsalat

    It would be nice to require nickname(s) on member's application pages

  623. wurstsalat

    Commonly known by: ...

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  626. Sam

    Anyways, sorry for the spam, I should have ducked out when emus did so that I didn't get mad too. You'd think I'd know by now not to engage.

  627. jonas’

    Sam, maybe officially bring it up with Board a.k.a. the Conduct team

  628. Sam

    jonas’: yah, might be worth a shot, thanks. I'm not sure if it's more of a conduct thing or a membership thing, but I guess I should bring it up for them to sort out.

  629. jonas’

    Sam, yep

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  632. jonas’

    they've been constantly receiving the highest amount of No votes (with a decent margin)

  633. Neustradamus

    Sam: No problem, communication is important, it is for this I have talked about the newsletter date, to explain the problem, and to permit an improvement, a change. But do not forget that I am not aggresive with you and other people.

  634. jonas’

    I'd be surprised if all of the Yes votes were affirmative and not just passive

  635. Sam

    Is the board@ an email address I can actually send to, or is that a board only list or something?

  636. jonas’

    I think it is an email address you can actually send to, as someone tends to the moderation queue

  637. moparisthebest

    Neustradamus, but no one else sees it as a problem right? so maybe move on ?

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  641. Zash

    The overlap of those who see a problem and those doing something about it is zero.

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  643. wurstsalat

    > I'd be surprised if all of the Yes votes were affirmative and not just passive That's why I think listing their nickname in membership applications might be helpful.

  644. Neustradamus

    moparisthebest: if it is not possible to change the deadline date, it is easy to solve with the current month instead the previous month. For example, if the newsletter is sent in February 2022, it must be named "The XMPP Newsletter February 2022".

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  646. moparisthebest

    Neustradamus, you are the only one that holds that opinion though, generally newsletters sum up the last month, so the Feb newsletter shows all the stuff that happens in Feb, so by necessity, it must be released in March

  647. moparisthebest

    overall though, it doesn't matter, and we should just thank our volunteers for doing anything at all and just move on without our lives :D

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  659. mdosch

    > overall though, it doesn't matter, and we should just thank our volunteers for doing anything at all and just move on without our lives :D 👍

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  671. Menel

    I like the idea of just calling it "monthly Newsletter"

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  676. Neustradamus

    moparisthebest: Yes, the month which must be taken is the sending date, if sent in between 1-31 January, it is January 2022; if between 1-28 February 2022, it is February 2022. Newsletters that you received in your mailbox, do you have the same current problem of the XMPP Newsletter? Currently, there is a space-time problem ^^ When I send newsletters, I specify the current week or current month or current year like all other sender people.

  677. jonas’

    No, the mont which must be taken is the month in which the news described happened.

  678. Neustradamus

    Thanks Menel for your comment :)

  679. jonas’

    No, the month which must be taken is the month in which the news described happened.

  680. jonas’

    Otherwise, we can easily end up with two newsletters called March, if the february newsletter is delayed for whatever reason until march 1st, but the march newsletter is sent on-time on march 31st. The only logical thing to do is to name it based on the time of news collection.

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  688. Neustradamus

    jonas’: The object needs to specify the current month but in the newsletter: it can be specified: - Article of December, January - Software updates of December, January - ...

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  690. atomicwatch

    Neustradamus: it doesnt matter man, stop. You are just wasting yours and others time.

  691. moparisthebest

    the only thing that makes sense is that the volunteer that does it names them

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  693. moparisthebest

    if anyone disagrees they aren't doing the work so they should be quiet :)

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  697. Neustradamus

    moparisthebest: Of course yes, we debate on a subject, a question, with arguments etc. :)

  698. emus_web

    Sam, thanks for taking responsibility. But nevermind. I just left before I say something stupid. And I can reflect it just drove me a bit because I was just spending some hours of spare time getting to all the informatics institues blackboards in the city and then reading this stuff.

  699. Neustradamus

    emus: No problem, it is a good debate, with arguments from all.

  700. jonas’

    emus_web, FWIW, I also sent you a note on this topic in private. You're doing an excellent job here.

  701. Neustradamus

    The main thing is to communicate without being aggressive, to listen everyone, to defend, to explain :)

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  704. emus_web

    i hope everyone is fine with the "news"letter working on the past events and taking 5 dedicaded days for drafting and review. It not just allows some flexibility it also ensured that we have continous publishing and actual framing this for all volunteers. And if there are not more volunteers to just prepare and review things within yours on each months last day we should stick to it. I would like to end the debate here and I will definitvely reconsider my members voting behaviour next time.

  705. emus_web

    Thanks jonas' my phone is dead. And im on web on my business phone

  706. moparisthebest

    emus_web, I think I tried to thank you every month but dropped off in recent months, regardless you are doing an *excellent* job and you can never please everyone, it's obvious to me you are pleasing most, please keep up the good work :)

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  713. Neustradamus

    emus: I have never said that you do or you have done a bad work, do not mix, newsletters are good except this object part ^^

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  715. Neustradamus

    And I am happy to contribute since several years.

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  718. Kev

    emus_web: I don't think this is a general complaint, I suspect we're all just pleased you're doing them (whether we bother to say so or not).

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  728. jcbrand


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  732. theTedd

    The newsletter is titled "January" because it is about _events which happened in January_ - that isn't the publication date, it's the title. Neustradamus, you are wrong; not only are you wrong, but you refuse to understand this, while aggressively repeating the same wrong point and irritating everyone with your pointless drama.

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  735. theTedd

    I know everyone is of the opinion that emus and volunteers are doing an excellent job on this, but it's worth repeating because this kind of nonsense leaves people feeling unappreciated, when that's certainly not the case

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  739. MattJ

    Hey jcbrand

  740. jcbrand

    Yes, thank you emus

  741. jcbrand

    Hi MattJ

  742. jcbrand

    Board meeting?

  743. MattJ

    Anyone else from Board? Or another week to skip?

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  751. Sam

    If you do have a meeting, I sent two items to board@ for your consideration.

  752. jcbrand


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  759. jcbrand

    Doesn't look too be like I'm getting board emails

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  761. jcbrand

    Doesn't look to me like I'm getting board emails

  762. jcbrand

    Oh sorry, got it now

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  765. arc


  766. arc

    Sorry forgot to plug my phone in last night

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  768. MattJ

    No worries

  769. MattJ

    I think there are enough of us to at least officially approve Mellium for Open Collective

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  773. arc

    I approve

  774. jcbrand

    I just far fingered and deleted Sam's other email (not about Mellium)

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  776. jcbrand

    I just fat fingered and deleted Sam's other email (not about Mellium)

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  778. jcbrand

    I also approve

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  781. MattJ

    Meeting opened, we all approve, meeting closed... if nobody objects or has any other business, I'll send minutes :)

  782. jcbrand


  783. Zash

    This is how you do efficient meetings ↑

  784. MattJ

    I will reply to Sam's email separately

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  786. jcbrand

    Yes, me too

  787. jcbrand

    Not sure whether I can recover it still, otherwise I'll ask that someone forward it to me again please

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  790. jcbrand

    (on my phone currently)

  791. MattJ

    I can do so if you need

  792. jcbrand

    Thanks 🙏

  793. theTedd

    trash folder?

  794. arc

    Glad I could help! My phone is still going through all the alerts I missed since the phone was off

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  798. jcbrand

    theTedd: i checked

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  858. emus

    Ha, Dino is great with as its only querying the last hour of chat - so I don't come into the choice of reading stuff again 🙂

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  864. mdosch

    I think it doesn't do any queries but only supports the old history thing where the MUC gives you a fixed amount of past messages.

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  881. emus

    ah ok ^^ anyway

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  894. rocco

    what's the general consideration of MIX spec? There are software that actually working on implementing it or plan to do?

  895. rocco

    what's the general consideration of MIX spec? There are softwares that actually working on implementing it or plan to do?

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  897. moparisthebest

    I think tigase is the only one working on it

  898. moparisthebest

    some new super alpha clients currently plan to implement MIX instead of MUC too

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  908. MattJ

    I think MIX is possibly a good choice for some closed deployments, but not the way forward for the federated ecosystem

  909. MattJ

    I know everyone loves a rewrite, but I think evolving MUC (which has been happening) is the better option

  910. moparisthebest

    I couldn't agree more but I thought I was the only one complaining about it :)

  911. MattJ

    You're certainly not

  912. moparisthebest

    MIX requires far too much of a flag day upgrade-everything-at-once to ever work, and MUC is very capable of being fixed incrementally

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  914. Zash

    Modulo backwards-compat layers

  915. mathieui

    though fixing MUC really feels like putting bandaids on top of bandaids on top of a wooden leg

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  917. moparisthebest

    if people were interested in it, backwards compat and/or some widespread implementation would have happened by now https://www.moparisthebest.com/mix/

  918. mathieui

    moparisthebest, I refuse the fact that 2015 was seven years ago

  919. MattJ


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  921. moparisthebest

    march 2020 has been the longest month of my life

  922. Zash

    it's finally over .. next week

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  942. rocco

    wow, I didnt imagine MIX was so contentious :)

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  948. emus

    > moparisthebest escribió: > emus_web, I think I tried to thank you every month but dropped off in recent months, regardless you are doing an *excellent* job and you can never please everyone, it's obvious to me you are pleasing most, please keep up the good work :) Yes I will thanks! And yes you did!

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  1005. Wojtek

    > MIX requires far too much of a flag day upgrade-everything-at-once to ever work, and MUC is very capable of being fixed incrementally yes, perfect way forward to end up in a state of multiple-speed-implementation and users complaining that the experience is different on different platforms... does seem to ring a bell :-)

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  1007. moparisthebest

    vs everyone twiddling their thumbs for 7 years saying "maybe MIX will fix things some day?" :)

  1008. moparisthebest

    I think you are the only one to actually implement it on client and server sides so you are excluded obviously, good work :)

  1009. Wojtek

    MIX is/can be based on pubsub; alternative is "bettering" MUC, step by step, making it basically a pubsub?

  1010. Andrzej

    I would add that there were idea of making MUC better (mucsub, muclight) and they are all dead now..

  1011. Zash

    All is pubsub! https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0207.html

  1012. Andrzej

    I would add that there were ideas of making MUC better (mucsub, muclight) and they are all dead now..

  1013. moparisthebest

    dead *because* everyone kept raving about how MIX would save everything, not so much on actual merits as far as I saw

  1014. moparisthebest

    did you all have any feedback on MIX? are you implementing exactly what the XEPs specify or did you have to make changes etc ?

  1015. Zash

    Were those "better MUC" ever submitted as XEPs?

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  1017. Andrzej

    Zash: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-light.html

  1018. moparisthebest

    Zash, at least https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-light.html was and as far as I remember was explicitly rejected because it wasn't MIX

  1019. Andrzej

    our implementation is exactly what is in the XEPs

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