XSF Discussion - 2022-02-03

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5th December 2021, the last XSF newsletter was sent and it was named "November 2021". It will be better to have the newsletter at the end of the month (28/29 or 30/31 of the Month)? Thanks in advance.

Neustradamus: Seems like you are actually not reading the newsletter

emus: https://xmpp.org/blog/ The XMPP Blog The XMPP Newsletter November 2021 Posted on December 5, 2021 | 8 minutes | Newsletter | emus

Neustradamus: I am really not happy reading this stuff from you again. Maybe you just start doing actual the work instead of asking to do others to do it? As we have written, and did last year we are having a new years break until 5th of February which is perfectly in the release cycle. But thanks Neustradamus for the very helpful lesson here...

Newsletter is working backwards on the past month ✏

I think, and I am not alone, that the newsletter publication date must be before the next month (28/29 February, 30/31 for other months)

Neustradamus: what happens if news comes out on the last day of the month, does it just not get to be in the newsletter?

Neustradamus, it's ran entirely by volunteers so it gets published when it gets published, we are very lucky one is published at all

Neustradamus: publication date should be set to when it's published

Neustradamus: exactly this ^

Example for Gajim, it is done before the end of the month :) - https://gajim.org/post/

and I made the publication track for good reasons and also to keep people in and keep up with they voluntary work. but you seem to not understand that

Answer the question or stop posting.

Im out before I get agressive...

Neustradamus: because I like to have gajim's blog post in the newsletter (that's all there is to it)

Otherwise I'd have to write a blog post mid-month, which wouldn't be ok with you, I guess?

Snikket announcements are good too, example: https://snikket.org/blog/ - January 2022 server release Wed Jan 19, 2022 by Snikket Team. It is not December 2021.

We don't need more examples. Stop pasting random links.

Mods: can we please just get Neustradamus banned from this room? We've all tried to be patient with them for years, but all they do is make volunteers feel bad and spam every project with tons of links to random unrelated things. It's infuriating.

wurstsalat: It will be nice to have the XSF newsletter the 15 of the Month and named the current month.

Just don't engage?

Or block them locally

I have blocked them in my rooms and locally, but I can't block them in this room. Fair enough, we should all just ignore them, but seeing emus being put down by them suckered me into it. We shouldn't have to just ignore them all this time later.

My remark is good, it explain a date problem of the Newsletter

It is a serious remark

Well, I mean I guess I could, but that would make the conversation look a bit weird.

Sam: block lists can do this

XEP-0191? Can be awkward in MUC as it doesn't (currently?) account for nickname changes and the like

The main issue though, even if I personally ignore them, is that they constantly come in here and other rooms with nonsense problems, refuse to answer any good faith questions about it, and make volunteers feel bad.

Note that Sam dislikes me because I have reviewed I-Ds.

No, I dislike you because you spammed the ID threads and refused to answer any questions asked of you. And in here. And in my chat rooms.

But it is strange other people confirm my remarks.

Anyways, I'd like to request that the moderation team or whomever handles this thing actually consider a ban or whatever other action they think is appropriate. I don't know if we have a process for that.

I am not agressive, I publish only a remark about the newsletter date

They are an elected member of the XSF which makes this complicated (tm)

ahh, I see. There is a process for that I think.

ITYM it means they can be held to a higher standard

^

Obviously if it were *just* this conversation it wouldn't be a big deal, but this is the most minor instance of a long-standing pattern of behavior.

> No, I dislike you because you spammed the ID threads and refused to answer any questions asked of you. And in here. And in my chat rooms. ID?

Anyway, it would be good to validate the CoC process, or whatever process applies

mdosch, Internet Draft

Thanks

mdosch: Internet Draft (some IETF documents that Neustradamus kept making spammy comments on)

oops, too slow.

I wonder if revoking their membership is something others would consider, or if I'm just overreacting? I know they've wasted a lot of my time, and I've seen them waste a lot of others time without doing any valueable work, but maybe I'm wrong? Feel free to ping me privately if you'd prefer, I'm just curious if such a thing would stand any chance of getting to a vote (it requires 5% of members to bring the vote, I believe, and 2/3 to actually remove someone)

It's a serious step, I know, so I'm legitimately curious what others think about it.

Well there is an annual (re)election anyway.

So if there was a majority for this you could just wait

That's a fair point; maybe if people keep voting for them they don't think it's as much of a problem as I do.

It is really strange to attack a person because this person explains and argues on a point of communication ✏

I think you know that's not why I'm suggesting this. You constantly spam links everywhere, ignore any questions about your position, and generally waste everyone's time.

Neustradamus, I agree, do you understand my point though? that the newsletter is published whenever it's published and dated on that date, which might be "late" because it's ran by volunteers ?

(minor aside: it's also not "late" in any real sense, that's just the day emus set for it. That gives them time to get any last minute items in that happened at the end of the month and actually prepare the newsletter from the various sources that have to be pulled together.)

moparisthebest: thanks for your comment. I am one of volunteers, I totally understand you. A correct deadline needs to be chosen, it is my original request. I think it is possible to plan it. ✏

Neustradamus: so if we pick your deadline, what happens to news that comes out at the end of the month after the newsletter has already been released, or right as the newsletter is about to be sent?

Neustradamus, you can't impose a deadline on volunteers though, I mean, you *can*, but they'll probably just leave and we wouldn't want that ?

Isn't the ultimate solution to just call it The Monthly Newsletter and never mention any month names at all?

Calling it a "solution" implies that there is a problem, but the newsletter coming out a few days after the month ends seems fine, even expected ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Neustradamus: still waiting on an answer to that question.

Sorry. The real ultimate solution is to collapse the universe into a singularity. All moths happen at the same time!

I suspect bats would love a universe where all moths happen at the same time!

Sam: "Software" teams need to adapt and there is a draft, the draft can be updated before publication at the last month day. moparisthebest: There is already a deadline but it is the next month of the Newsletter month.

Zash: It doesn't even need to be the whole universe, it could be much more localised.

It would be nice to require nickname(s) on member's application pages

Commonly known by: ...

Anyways, sorry for the spam, I should have ducked out when emus did so that I didn't get mad too. You'd think I'd know by now not to engage.

Sam, maybe officially bring it up with Board a.k.a. the Conduct team

jonas’: yah, might be worth a shot, thanks. I'm not sure if it's more of a conduct thing or a membership thing, but I guess I should bring it up for them to sort out.

Sam, yep

they've been constantly receiving the highest amount of No votes (with a decent margin)

Sam: No problem, communication is important, it is for this I have talked about the newsletter date, to explain the problem, and to permit an improvement, a change. But do not forget that I am not aggresive with you and other people.

I'd be surprised if all of the Yes votes were affirmative and not just passive

Is the board@ an email address I can actually send to, or is that a board only list or something?

I think it is an email address you can actually send to, as someone tends to the moderation queue

Neustradamus, but no one else sees it as a problem right? so maybe move on ?

The overlap of those who see a problem and those doing something about it is zero.

> I'd be surprised if all of the Yes votes were affirmative and not just passive That's why I think listing their nickname in membership applications might be helpful.

moparisthebest: if it is not possible to change the deadline date, it is easy to solve with the current month instead the previous month. For example, if the newsletter is sent in February 2022, it must be named "The XMPP Newsletter February 2022".

Neustradamus, you are the only one that holds that opinion though, generally newsletters sum up the last month, so the Feb newsletter shows all the stuff that happens in Feb, so by necessity, it must be released in March

overall though, it doesn't matter, and we should just thank our volunteers for doing anything at all and just move on without our lives :D

> overall though, it doesn't matter, and we should just thank our volunteers for doing anything at all and just move on without our lives :D 👍

I like the idea of just calling it "monthly Newsletter"

moparisthebest: Yes, the month which must be taken is the sending date, if sent in between 1-31 January, it is January 2022; if between 1-28 February 2022, it is February 2022. Newsletters that you received in your mailbox, do you have the same current problem of the XMPP Newsletter? Currently, there is a space-time problem ^^ When I send newsletters, I specify the current week or current month or current year like all other sender people.

Thanks Menel for your comment :)

No, the month which must be taken is the month in which the news described happened. ✏

Otherwise, we can easily end up with two newsletters called March, if the february newsletter is delayed for whatever reason until march 1st, but the march newsletter is sent on-time on march 31st. The only logical thing to do is to name it based on the time of news collection.

jonas’: The object needs to specify the current month but in the newsletter: it can be specified: - Article of December, January - Software updates of December, January - ...

Neustradamus: it doesnt matter man, stop. You are just wasting yours and others time.

the only thing that makes sense is that the volunteer that does it names them

if anyone disagrees they aren't doing the work so they should be quiet :)

moparisthebest: Of course yes, we debate on a subject, a question, with arguments etc. :)

Sam, thanks for taking responsibility. But nevermind. I just left before I say something stupid. And I can reflect it just drove me a bit because I was just spending some hours of spare time getting to all the informatics institues blackboards in the city and then reading this stuff.

emus: No problem, it is a good debate, with arguments from all.

emus_web, FWIW, I also sent you a note on this topic in private. You're doing an excellent job here.

The main thing is to communicate without being aggressive, to listen everyone, to defend, to explain :)

i hope everyone is fine with the "news"letter working on the past events and taking 5 dedicaded days for drafting and review. It not just allows some flexibility it also ensured that we have continous publishing and actual framing this for all volunteers. And if there are not more volunteers to just prepare and review things within yours on each months last day we should stick to it. I would like to end the debate here and I will definitvely reconsider my members voting behaviour next time.

Thanks jonas' my phone is dead. And im on web on my business phone

emus_web, I think I tried to thank you every month but dropped off in recent months, regardless you are doing an *excellent* job and you can never please everyone, it's obvious to me you are pleasing most, please keep up the good work :)

emus: I have never said that you do or you have done a bad work, do not mix, newsletters are good except this object part ^^

And I am happy to contribute since several years.

emus_web: I don't think this is a general complaint, I suspect we're all just pleased you're doing them (whether we bother to say so or not).

👋

The newsletter is titled "January" because it is about _events which happened in January_ - that isn't the publication date, it's the title. Neustradamus, you are wrong; not only are you wrong, but you refuse to understand this, while aggressively repeating the same wrong point and irritating everyone with your pointless drama.

I know everyone is of the opinion that emus and volunteers are doing an excellent job on this, but it's worth repeating because this kind of nonsense leaves people feeling unappreciated, when that's certainly not the case

Hey jcbrand

Yes, thank you emus

Hi MattJ

Board meeting?

Anyone else from Board? Or another week to skip?

dwd?

If you do have a meeting, I sent two items to board@ for your consideration.

arc? ✏

Doesn't look to me like I'm getting board emails ✏

Oh sorry, got it now

Hi

Sorry forgot to plug my phone in last night

No worries

I think there are enough of us to at least officially approve Mellium for Open Collective

I approve

I just fat fingered and deleted Sam's other email (not about Mellium) ✏

I also approve

Meeting opened, we all approve, meeting closed... if nobody objects or has any other business, I'll send minutes :)

Lol

This is how you do efficient meetings ↑

I will reply to Sam's email separately

Yes, me too

Not sure whether I can recover it still, otherwise I'll ask that someone forward it to me again please

(on my phone currently)

I can do so if you need

Thanks 🙏

trash folder?

Glad I could help! My phone is still going through all the alerts I missed since the phone was off

theTedd: i checked

Ha, Dino is great with as its only querying the last hour of chat - so I don't come into the choice of reading stuff again 🙂

I think it doesn't do any queries but only supports the old history thing where the MUC gives you a fixed amount of past messages.

ah ok ^^ anyway

what's the general consideration of MIX spec? There are softwares that actually working on implementing it or plan to do? ✏

I think tigase is the only one working on it

some new super alpha clients currently plan to implement MIX instead of MUC too

I think MIX is possibly a good choice for some closed deployments, but not the way forward for the federated ecosystem

I know everyone loves a rewrite, but I think evolving MUC (which has been happening) is the better option

I couldn't agree more but I thought I was the only one complaining about it :)

You're certainly not

MIX requires far too much of a flag day upgrade-everything-at-once to ever work, and MUC is very capable of being fixed incrementally

Modulo backwards-compat layers

though fixing MUC really feels like putting bandaids on top of bandaids on top of a wooden leg

if people were interested in it, backwards compat and/or some widespread implementation would have happened by now https://www.moparisthebest.com/mix/

moparisthebest, I refuse the fact that 2015 was seven years ago

Absolutely

march 2020 has been the longest month of my life

it's finally over .. next week

wow, I didnt imagine MIX was so contentious :)

> moparisthebest escribió: > emus_web, I think I tried to thank you every month but dropped off in recent months, regardless you are doing an *excellent* job and you can never please everyone, it's obvious to me you are pleasing most, please keep up the good work :) Yes I will thanks! And yes you did!

> MIX requires far too much of a flag day upgrade-everything-at-once to ever work, and MUC is very capable of being fixed incrementally yes, perfect way forward to end up in a state of multiple-speed-implementation and users complaining that the experience is different on different platforms... does seem to ring a bell :-)

vs everyone twiddling their thumbs for 7 years saying "maybe MIX will fix things some day?" :)

I think you are the only one to actually implement it on client and server sides so you are excluded obviously, good work :)

MIX is/can be based on pubsub; alternative is "bettering" MUC, step by step, making it basically a pubsub?

All is pubsub! https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0207.html

I would add that there were ideas of making MUC better (mucsub, muclight) and they are all dead now.. ✏

dead *because* everyone kept raving about how MIX would save everything, not so much on actual merits as far as I saw

did you all have any feedback on MIX? are you implementing exactly what the XEPs specify or did you have to make changes etc ?

Were those "better MUC" ever submitted as XEPs?

Zash: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-light.html

Zash, at least https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-light.html was and as far as I remember was explicitly rejected because it wasn't MIX

our implementation is exactly what is in the XEPs