XSF Discussion - 2022-02-12


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  214. Andrzej Link Mauve, I do not recall doing anything on the server around that time
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  217. Andrzej but I might have an idea what is going on, thank you for reporting that
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  605. Link Mauve No worries, it just popped up in poezio and I thought you’d be interested. :)
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  628. moparisthebest How would people feel if instead of migrating to srv2 we just crammed everything in host-meta over https ?
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  632. moparisthebest Everything as in starttls, direct TLS, quic, posh replacement pinning keys instead of certs etc
  633. Link Mauve moparisthebest, and require an entire HTTP stack just for connecting?
  634. Link Mauve Nothanks.
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  637. moparisthebest Link Mauve: you already need a whole http stack
  638. moparisthebest Also I've given up hope in dnssec
  639. Link Mauve You don’t.
  640. Link Mauve I have written many clients and some servers without doing a single HTTP request.
  641. Link Mauve General-purpose clients will need that for HTTP File Upload, but that’s kind of the only one?
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  672. moparisthebest Link Mauve: so how do you handle secure delegation for hosted XMPP without an http client for posh or widespread dnssec?
  673. Link Mauve How many clients do POSH?
  674. Link Mauve Last time I tried, it wasn’t worth it using for our hosted service.
  675. flow moparisthebest, I think one reason, if not the main reason, that DNSSEC did no see wide adoption in the last decade is that it does not provide much to closed-silo networks: if you control all clients and all servers, then you probably just pin the TLS certs (and maybe even the IPs)
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  677. moparisthebest Link Mauve: right, it's not widely supported, and that's a problem
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  679. Link Mauve So instead we recommend our users to use a CNAME delegation, it creates worse-looking JIDs but that’s the safest way.
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  682. moparisthebest We can kill 8 birds with 1 https request here
  683. Zash Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
  684. moparisthebest flow: right I'm concerned with the open federated network
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  687. moparisthebest Link Mauve: cname delegation is a hack that doesn't work for most of the names people want
  688. Link Mauve Do people care?
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  690. Link Mauve Our users don’t seem to at least.
  691. moparisthebest I couldn't move my names to a hosted service for instance
  692. moparisthebest If they did do they have a choice?
  693. Link Mauve You could, by providing us your certificates.
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  696. moparisthebest You have an automated way to send you certificates every 60 days?
  697. Link Mauve They do have a choice, it’s only the automated setup which requires a CNAME, you can contact us for anything more specialised.
  698. Link Mauve It’d be a ssh away if anyone requested that.
  699. Link Mauve So far, none of our ~70 domain owners did.
  700. flow moparisthebest, personally, I am not willing to give up on DNSSEC, as I think it becomes more and more available. People just overestimated how fast it would be deployed and "replace" the existing status quo. That appears to be an pattern that repeats again and again in tech
  701. moparisthebest I'm not interested in XMPP for the status quo 20 years ago, I'm interested in XMPP for the real world of today
  702. Link Mauve Same.
  703. moparisthebest Today, when all certs are renewed every 60 days and you can't count on dnssec
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  705. moparisthebest I think that paints us into a corner of using https for secure delegation
  706. moparisthebest But happy to have other alternatives
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  708. Zash flow, did you say IPv6?
  709. Link Mauve moparisthebest, do you want to suddenly make all of our users unable to delegate to us, unless they change their DNS configuration? :)
  710. flow Zash, yep, another example was when the EU (or was it just germany?) tried to replace FM radio in cars with DAB ~10-15 years ago
  711. moparisthebest Link Mauve: why wouldn't that continue to work? But they could also let you host XMPP for their top level domain while still running their own https/email etc
  712. Link Mauve moparisthebest, and have to migrate their JID?
  713. moparisthebest Why would anyone have to change anything?
  714. Link Mauve Some of our users don’t even host an HTTP server.
  715. moparisthebest It opens it up to doing this with top level domains that is not available now
  716. Link Mauve Not on the apex nor anywhere else.
  717. moparisthebest Right, all that continues to work...
  718. Link Mauve With your solution, they would have to do so.
  719. moparisthebest No, you would, your the XMPP host
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  721. moparisthebest No, you would, you're the XMPP host
  722. moparisthebest It's not like srv would cease working...
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  729. moparisthebest Tldr we need a way to advertise quic, we need a way to pin keys, we need secure delegation
  730. moparisthebest We can add another srv/srv2 record, and a replacement for posh, and end up with 4 https requests and 3 srv lookups for connection
  731. moparisthebest Or, we can decide existing host-meta is the way forward for new things and extend it
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  733. moparisthebest Extending host-meta seems like the clear winner to me?
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  736. flow maybe, does one exclude the other?
  737. flow I'd treat is as everything tech related, experiment with it, and see how it works out
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  753. Zash Nooooooo, it'll catch on and then we're stuck with it forever
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  797. flow ha, being stuck with a kindaish works thingy forever, even though better things are available, is also a repeating pattern: xep27 anyone? or old-omemo?
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  807. flow but you can't stop people from "experimenting" with stuff, and if it gets momentum and adoption, than it basically can't bet stopped (and also, why would you, if it remedies an itch ppl have?)
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  830. moparisthebest Well you really don't want both or everyone is stuck doing all the things forever
  831. moparisthebest But yea I'll probably experiment, that's what xmpp-proxy was built for
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