XSF Discussion - 2022-02-14

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  217. junaid moparisthebest, websockets and other alt transports were introduced for client adoption/improvement especially due to mobile and the shift towards web technologies. honestly, i don't think any effort in alt s2s transports would be as beneficial as effort rather put into c2s transport improvements. if anything, i see it introducing more complexity into a portion of the stack that is already stable and established.
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  220. junaid (last line of that was directed at intro of alt transports into s2s)
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  223. moparisthebest junaid, why not both though? I mean, why create a new c2s transport and not just go ahead and also make it useable for s2s ?
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  230. junaid moparisthebest, i didn't say "no" but rather focused on the benefit that would be derived by such s2s efforts. like any community, we ultimately have a finite amount of resources. separately, for s2s, i don't see websockets/sse/other-new-hotness showing a significant improvement against straight-up TCP connections between always-on servers. for c2s on the other hand, i figure we need to have a deep think about how to streamline our approach and (hopefully) choose a route that's more extendible going forward. sse yesterday. websockets today. new-hotness tomorrow.... i don't think it's wish to burden server dev teams with keeping up with the latest web trends like that ๐Ÿ˜๏ธ
  231. junaid s/think it's wish/think it's wise/
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  234. moparisthebest junaid, quic for example seems to have very good benefits for both c2s and s2s
  235. moparisthebest websockets, maybe, maybe not, but I'd argue if you have c2s support it's trivial to add s2s support for any transport
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  315. Sam I do not know whether this is a good idea or not, but I do know that just because something is trivial doesn't make it a good idea or mean you should do it. Any claim that we should do anything because it's trivial should be viewed with extreme skepticsism.
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  324. Holger I agree with Sam. The question is not, or at least not only, about whether the coding effort seems trivial. In practice, introducing another transport forces everyone (server devs, XMPP and firewall admins, monitoring DevOps) to implement and offer both the existing and the new transports for interop. So there's yet another code path that needs testing, there's additional monitoring complexity, and it makes debugging harder. So if the idea is this comes with no cost, I'd disagree.
  325. Holger Just offering both STARTTLS and XMPPS can already be annoying in these regards.
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  330. Holger Also additional documention and support complexity.
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  621. sonny moparisthebest: no problem! Yeah maybe keeping 156 around for Bosh and to keep Bosh in compliance suite 2022 is a bit less brutal
  622. sonny I also don't see the point in ws s2s, if it doesn't solve a problem, it's unnecessary complexity
  623. sonny Plus there is already a replacement in the work with unreliable message support. Wb features have been deprecated/removed before and so might Websocket.
  624. sonny Web features*
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  627. Zash What problem is xmpps-s2s solving then?
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  636. Holger Latency!!!
  637. Zash Ah yes, indeed, latency was too low, waiting for more DNS queries solves that nicely.
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  641. Holger ๐Ÿ™‚
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  647. Zash I'm still skeptical about touching security things for vanity reasons like latency and problems like restrictive firewalls that really should be solved elsewhere if we could have nice things.
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  664. moparisthebest QUIC has nothing to do with restrictive firewalls, but it does bring many nice things as a replacement for TCP+TLS that I think equally apply to S2S
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  669. msavoritias Isnt quic horribly complex to implement? Thats what i have heard at least
  670. moparisthebest at what level ?
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  673. moparisthebest from an application point of view it's the same as TCP+TLS, if not a bit easier, in both cases you import your library that handles it for you and get a stream from it
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  675. moparisthebest hopefully no XMPP clients or servers are currently rolling their own TLS library, and therefore also won't roll their own QUIC library?
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  678. Holger moparisthebest: I would've thought it's somewhat tailored towards typical web client use cases (short-lived queries of many resources via unreliable networks)? I.e. optimization of connection establishment, roaming, multiplexing?
  679. msavoritias Sure. But sometning being more complex means less implementations. Which leads to less choices, less community participation etc... See matrix, web browsers
  680. jonasโ€™ Holger, I looked into QUIC for a side project, and it seemed to be quite useful for XMPP actually
  681. jonasโ€™ c2s anyway, because of the very efficient roaming
  682. Holger Yes I'll easily buy it for c2s. L
  683. moparisthebest Holger, ah, well we only have google to blame for the naming confusion because they originally called http3 quic, but names have been shuffled around
  684. Holger This was about s2s specifically.
  685. govanify has left
  686. moparisthebest quic is a drop-in replacement for tcp+tls
  687. govanify has joined
  688. jonasโ€™ (more like SCTP+TLS)
  689. moparisthebest h3 is a layer on top of quic, like http1/http2/xmpp is a layer on top of tcp+tls
  690. jonasโ€™ (more like SCTP+TLS or multi-path-TCP+TLS even)
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  692. Holger Yes and I thought the replacement was about these topics mainly but whatever.
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  695. Holger You say it brings 'many nice things' to s2s, I'm clueless and was just asking 'which things?'.
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  697. moparisthebest just off the top of my head benefit wise: 1. there is free roaming (switching IPs without terminating connections), which you could fairly say applies much more to clients than servers, but my server runs in my closet and I have a dynamic IP, so that's not universally true 2. multiple independent streams with only 1 encryption context and no head-of-line blocking, so piggybacking without head-of-line blocking 3. stream resumption but at the quic-level, so if your internet drops out for a minute, you don't need to re-establish any connections
  698. Zash TCP can handle hours of network outage if you let it
  699. moparisthebest then just combine #3 with #1
  700. jonasโ€™ > 1. there is free roaming (switching IPs without terminating connections), which you could fairly say applies much more to clients than servers, but my server runs in my closet and I have a dynamic IP, so that's not universally true this doesn't really help you in s2s, if both servers have a dynamic IP and switch IPs around the same time.
  701. jonasโ€™ so you need strategies for that anyway
  702. moparisthebest that sounds like a pretty unlikely edge case, it still helps you in the majority of cases though right ?
  703. Zash And there was something I remember about QUIC being incompatible with either OpenSSL or TLS itself, so a huge chunk of the current network stack would need to be replaced and I'm unconvinced of the ROI
  704. jonasโ€™ no, in the majority of cases it doesn't matter
  705. jonasโ€™ because servers have static IPs :)
  706. moparisthebest not mine :)
  707. jonasโ€™ because the majority of servers have static IPs :)
  708. moparisthebest "oh no we have to replace openssl" the horror...
  709. moparisthebest shoulda done that about a decade ago
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  713. Holger moparisthebest: Ok yes that's mostly what I had in mind, thanks.
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  716. Holger moparisthebest: Your dynamic IP address will only change every now and then, no? We're talking about TCP-TLS's reconnection latency in that situation?
  717. moparisthebest I *think* you can keep connections open across service restarts in theory, though I don't know if any existing libraries support something like that
  718. moparisthebest yep, so far my dynamic IP only changes about every 6 months so I don't care, but they guarantee nothing about it
  719. Holger Hmm, not sure I'm sold ๐Ÿ™‚
  720. moparisthebest maybe QUIC makes people more likely to run servers on their phones, the people who like p2p anyway :)
  721. jonasโ€™ (keeping connections open is nice and all, but saving the state on top of those connections makes it typically not worth it.)
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  723. moparisthebest I've already known 2 people who have done this for awhile
  724. Holger I would think the real issue we see with s2s in practice is reliability, no matter whether the address is dynamic. If QUIC brings some magic fix for that, I *am* sold.
  725. moparisthebest I'm somewhat afraid we'll only see that benefit in the beginning, while bad middleboxes only fiddle with TCP stuff like keepalives, QUIC should be much better until they catch up...
  726. Link Mauve moparisthebest, Iโ€™ve had Prosody running on my phone for more than a decade, it just works and since my ISP gives me a static IPv6 it can even federate with other servers living in the 21st century.
  727. moparisthebest my ISP briefly handed out some ipv6 addresses once upon a time then just quit :'(
  728. Link Mauve But of course, I mostly keep it to testing.
  729. Link Mauve moparisthebest, wat, why?
  730. moparisthebest don't ask me, I've never been able to reach anyone on the phone that knows what ipv6 is
  731. Link Mauve ^^'
  732. Link Mauve Maybe time to switch to a better ISP?
  733. moparisthebest same company that was a big sponsor of world ipv6 day some years back too
  734. moparisthebest haha good one
  735. moparisthebest man imagine having more than 1 choice for ISP, what a world that would be...
  736. Sam Wait, there's more than 1 ISP?
  737. Link Mauve Here Iโ€™ve had a static IPv6 /60 (splittable in 16ย subnetworks) and an IPv4 since 2007.
  738. Sam (That is only sort of a joke)
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  741. moparisthebest Sam, oh it's a joke, just not a haha funny one
  742. Link Mauve moparisthebest, which country do you live in? :/
  743. moparisthebest USA, local cable company is the only ISP
  744. Link Mauve Oh myโ€ฆ
  745. Link Mauve My condoleances.
  746. Sam Yah, the internet situation in the U.S. is *really* bad
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  749. Sam Almost typed "cabal company", then went to correct it and decided it was fine as is.
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  752. moparisthebest haha so true
  753. emus Hi, kind reminder to place the GSoC 2022 flyer in hacker-spaces, unis etc if you want to support this event. Please check before if you are allowed to place such things. https://xmpp.org/community/gsoc-2022/ List of hackerspaces, may in your corner: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Category:Hackerspace Let's spread the word!
  754. Wojtek has left
  755. Sam But yah, most of the time the local cable company who *really* wants you to subscribe to their cable package and not netflix or whatever is the only option. You can imagine how that goes.
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  757. Sam I've been trying to start a little co-op WISP in my town for ages, but no one else seems to think it's a problem that they're being charged a huge amount for terrible internet that's out most of the time.
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  760. moparisthebest I should be grateful, I hear it can be much worse than I have it, at least I don't have comcast I hear ?
  761. Zash I have like 5 ISPs to choose from but they all have to deliver though the building/landlord-company infrastructure which is not IPv6-capable (despite I think newer than IPv6 launch day)
  762. Sam Oh boy, yah, I lived in an area where comcast was the only provider for a while, they were *way* worse than AT&T (not that AT&T is good, but they're better)
  763. Zash Used to be more ISPs, but some of them bought the others and then got bough by the former state telco monopoly...
  764. moparisthebest used to be time warner here, now it's spectrum/charter
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  769. Sam Actually, I may *technically* have a choice because Spectrum sends me at least one flier via snail mail every day (no really, I'm not being hyperbolic, sometimes I even get two on the same day), so presumably they're in my area too
  770. Sam Anyways, bad ISP rant over. Sorry. Thanks for commiserating moparisthebest.
  771. moparisthebest +1
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