XSF Discussion - 2022-02-18

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  197. moparisthebest emus, sorry I didn't quite finish, I'll get the rest tommorow
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  220. emus moparisthebest: thanks is alright
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  230. Guus This is probably a silly question, but I didn't have enough coffee yet. How does one unregister with a MUC? The inverse of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#register ?
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  241. Fishbowler Have always assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that it's intentionally back-channeled. In the same way that many orgs do their Right to Be Forgotten, I'd imagined it to be an "email an admin" affair.
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  244. Kev https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html#usecases-cancel
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  248. Guus Ah, thank you.
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  688. emus So, no XML excuses anymore πŸ™‚ https://github.com/legastero/stanza
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  690. Link Mauve emus, doesn’t sound very maintained.
  691. emus yep, I just saw it
  692. Link Mauve But this (and many similar ones) has been available for literally decades.
  693. Link Mauve People ranting on XML just want a reason to not use XMPP imo.
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  695. emus ah, didn't knew
  696. Link Mauve A library like slixmpp or aioxmpp will not expose any XML to you, it will expose native objects.
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  698. Link Mauve You have to dig pretty far if you want to manipulate raw XML objects.
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  700. moparisthebest see I always found that super annoying
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  702. moparisthebest I *want* raw XML and jumping through 80 hoops making objects for each variant and registering serializers and deserializers etc was always a PITA
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  713. Link Mauve Have fun playing with libstrophe I guess. ^^'
  714. Link Mauve I’m not into kink shaming.
  715. moparisthebest the key is layers so you can reach down as deep as you'd like
  716. emus I cannot review this, is there anyone volunteering? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/1001
  717. moparisthebest I've got "connecting to xmpp, being handed seperate stanzas as &[u8] working
  718. moparisthebest next would be an XML layer, and *then* an object layer, maybe
  719. emus maybe we should add this to XMPP Myths --> "XMPP means XML = bad"
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  721. Link Mauve moparisthebest, we have that in tokio-xmpp.
  722. Link Mauve And you can use xmpp-parsers if you want something more usable than XML stuff.
  723. moparisthebest tokio-xmpp depends on an XML lib though right?
  724. Link Mauve But besides XMPP hackers, this is not usable by the layman.
  725. Link Mauve Yes.
  726. moparisthebest that's the layer above &[u8]
  727. Link Mauve For XMPP you kind of need to. :p
  728. Link Mauve Otherwise you’d have like, a socket library?
  729. moparisthebest you don't, you can easily split up stanzas without an XML parser
  730. Link Mauve And parse the stream headers, do the login dance, etc.
  731. Link Mauve Yeah sure, I mean my first client was literally implemented using printf() and scanf(), but…
  732. moparisthebest some simple substring on the byte array
  733. Link Mauve Oh my.
  734. moparisthebest fun fact, ejabberd works like this
  735. emus https://gitlab.com/xmpp-rs/xmpp-rs can some of the official peopl PR? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json
  736. emus https://gitlab.com/xmpp-rs/xmpp-rs can some of the official people PR? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json
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  738. moparisthebest it's not using an xml library on stream features etc, because if you send them formatted differently, it won't work
  739. Link Mauve emus, I still don’t consider the xmpp-rs part usable enough, and the other parts are more like building blocks.
  740. emus but it is being developed right?
  741. Link Mauve Working building blocks, someone recently made a Jitsi Meet-compatible tool, but as I said besides XMPP hackers it’s not really usable by a random person wanting to use a library.
  742. Link Mauve Yes it is.
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  745. emus I think it is still okay to show its there, because I don't want people now thinking "Ahhh I am going to make a rust library!!!!"
  746. moparisthebest my motto is "if it's good enough for ejabberd, it's good enough for me" :P (it rhymes if you say it right)
  747. Link Mauve emus, hmm, that makes sense.
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  749. emus I would apprecitate a upgrade. Its more usable than this stanza thing I think, right?
  750. emus I would appreciate a update. Its more usable than this stanza thing I think, right?
  751. Link Mauve emus, just one entry, or one entry per component?
  752. emus I personally don't care. if it all is rust related, I think its fine to just reference the main repo. people will find their way
  753. emus (they likely wont find if we dont link at all πŸ˜‰ - IMHO)
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  756. Link Mauve Indeed. :)
  757. moparisthebest Link Mauve: ``` // ejabberd never sends <starttls/> with the first, only the second? //let buf = br###"<features xmlns="http://etherx.jabber.org/streams"><starttls xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls"><required/></starttls></features>"###; let buf = br###"<stream:features><starttls xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls"><required/></starttls></stream:features>"###; ```
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  759. moparisthebest that was, let's say, annoying to debug :)
  760. emus Call for everyone to rather create an entry for your project or also update extisting entries (timestamp) - Let's not have people reinventing the wheel (can I say that in English :D) - if there are doubts we can still discuss or in one year leave it to the archive again
  761. emus Call for everyone to rather create an entry for your project or also update existing entries (timestamp) - Let's not have people reinventing the wheel (can I say that in English? :D) - if there are doubts we can still discuss or in one year leave it to the archive again
  762. moparisthebest this is XMPP, where (virtually) every client re-invents the wheel with their own library
  763. Zash inb4 libprosody
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  767. Link Mauve https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/1078
  768. mathieui 21:14:03 Link Mauve> A library like slixmpp or aioxmpp will not expose any XML to you, it will expose native objects. β†’ I wish though
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  786. emus πŸ‘
  787. emus > moparisthebest escribió: > this is XMPP, where (virtually) every client re-invents the wheel with their own library ☺
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  819. wurstsalat There is no Rust in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/platforms.json This will most likely fail
  820. Zash Add there too?
  821. wurstsalat Sorry, just on the phone
  822. mathieui wurstsalat, platforms for the libraries page do not reference those, AFAIK
  823. mathieui (see the other entries, it’s the programming language instead)
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  828. emus wurstsalat, Link Mauve: could you guys check on that?
  829. mathieui Sam, they relate because you don’t trust a single client’s featureset anymore
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  831. mathieui so feature detection is mostly dropped in a multidevice world
  832. Zash .
  833. larma It's relevant for Jingle things, as Jingle doesn't use message πŸ˜‰
  834. mathieui (but yes, the correlation is loose)
  835. mathieui larma, true
  836. Zash the return of calls, yeah
  837. Link Mauve Sam, let’s say a client advertises support for feature A and feature B, a victim got their cache poisoned with feature A<B because their client didn’t escape things properly, then they’ll think the first client advertises neither.
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  839. larma Sam, you can't rely on caps/features for the call icon because the call-capable client might be offline and get a push notification as you send a call invite
  840. Sam larma: sure, but you still rely on caps/features to know that something supported it in the first place.
  841. larma You could, but then you risk of not showing the call icon for some users that would actually support it
  842. Sam You mean if they've never had a client come online that supports it? That seems reasonable to assume they don't have one in that case.
  843. Zash But if I wanna use fancy new features in say, this MUC right here, I can't do negotiation with those who will read it from the archives in 10 years
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  846. Sam I still don't understand what MUCs or people reading history in 10 years have to do with feature negotiation
  847. Sam I'm not trying to be obtuse, but maybe I am? I don't see how this relates to the previous conversation, sorry.
  848. larma It depends on which feature you want to negotiate
  849. Link Mauve Sam, many features which could (and should) be negociated in 1:1 usecases don’t really make sense any longer, now that people routinely use multiple clients and you don’t address a single resource, or in MUCs where people come and go.
  850. Link Mauve I can send XHTML-IM to this room right now, even if some of you might not support it yet.
  851. Link Mauve My client didn’t even try to negociate the feature, because in the worst case you will just miss part of the message.
  852. Sam Oh sure, all of that is true and obvious. I don't see how that makes feature negotiation as a thing less useful though. Yes, lots of features in different ways don't need it and you can just send them and have a good fallback. Others you can't. I was never arguing that every single thing should be feature negotiation all of the time.
  853. Link Mauve Sam, Zash’s point was only that fewer and fewer features are actually negociated that way.
  854. Link Mauve Due to multi-client, due to the assumption that people are always online (even if they don’t have a resource), etc.
  855. Link Mauve Due to MUC.
  856. Link Mauve Due to MUC+MAM.
  857. Sam Sure, that's probably true
  858. Zash Like, Swift IIRC has a banner warning that not everyone in the chat supports LMC
  859. Sam That's a thing I wish clients would do negotiation on. Every time someone edits a huge message and I get it all over again and have to try and figure out what's different I want to smash something
  860. Sam But yah, lots of things have saner fallbacks
  861. Zash That works fine as long as the audience is the current set of participants, but it's not, it's anyone who might join in the future (before archives expire)
  862. Link Mauve I feel like LMC’s fallback is actually pretty sane. :)
  863. Zash Annoying, but survivable, sure
  864. Link Mauve It could be much worse if you were to just miss an important correction altogether.
  865. Link Mauve The obvious solution being, to actually implement it.
  866. Sam That is not a solution for most users.
  867. Zash > point was only that fewer and fewer features are actually negociated that way. and by extension that the impact of 115 exploits is reduced
  868. Sam That's fair
  869. Zash Messing with call support detection, or PEP +notify might be bad enough tho.
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