XSF Discussion - 2022-03-10


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  468. arc Okay so I'm not sure when the board meeting is today. I was wrong last week and Google calendar is saying is at 11:00 a.m. now?
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  470. arc But Google's also saying that the member meeting for q1 is it the same time
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  474. MattJ Has the US done DST already?
  475. MattJ Board is in +1h as far as I'm concerned
  476. arc Sunday
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  480. arc Yeah so it was 9:00 a.m. my time, and it's 8am now. But last week nobody showed up and Google calendar showed it was off so I wasn't sure
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  485. MattJ Yep. Sorry, DST wasn't on my radar just yet. If we have a meeting today maybe we can discuss if we want to move it at all (or even skip a few weeks until we're back in alignment)
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  491. arc I know that this comes off as a bit annoying but this is why I think that all of our times should be UTC explicit. Because the way it is now around the DST shift times tend to swing wildly 2 hours in a manner that's rather complicated to understand unless you're in the time zone the DST is based on
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  497. arc Of course soon enough I won't have daylight savings time anymore. Oregon and Washington are just waiting on California at this point, and then PDT will no longer exist as a time zone
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  500. arc The shipping clerks at work were having a hell of a week trying to sort out all the arrival times for trucks over the next week. We have trucks arriving from multiple time zones, including Nevada and Arizona, all with fixed departure times and drive times. Every single route had to be recalculated, it was madness.
  501. MattJ I know we've had this discussion before, and my counter-argument is that it is always going to swing wildly for someone. UTC is "fair" because it changes for both (but more times, because we would presumably adjust the pinned time too). But fairness is not necessarily how we maximize attendance (not that anything else is doing a good job at that so far).
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  504. arc Sure but that also forces us to make explicit changes to meeting times. Which is especially useful when literally no one shows up for a meeting before the times start changing
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  507. MattJ I don't feel strongly either way - I think times should always be communicated in UTC at least. And if DST happens and it's a time I can't attend, I'll just be clear about that
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  516. Kev Are you both talking about saying e.g. "Next week DST hits Europe, so the next meeting will be at 1500Z instead of this week's 1600Z"? If so, that seems to have worked ok for Council in prior years.
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  518. MattJ I can see arguments for pinning to the DST rules of the majority, but I also don't expect you to wake up at crazy hours just for meetings that statistically is unlikely to occur anyway...
  519. Kev Or are you talking about "It's always 1600Z...until someone says they can't make it any more, and it gets moved", where the reason is likely to be DST that someone raises that?
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  521. jonas’ (though council has in the previous two terms consisted exclusively of europeans, I think)
  522. Daniel can’t you just fix the calander entry?
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  524. Daniel to be pinned to the correct time zone
  525. jonas’ this term, council pinned the calendar entry to Europe/Berlin and *I* did not even notice the DST change in US, moparisthebest just showed up on time :)
  526. Kev jonas' - fair. I don't believe that to have been the case for my Councils.
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  531. moparisthebest I was careful to ask exactly what TZ our meeting was scheduled in and carefully set my calendar to that, as a programmer burned one too many times by timezones :P
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  534. moparisthebest my only hope is that I'm retired before we have to deal with mars timezones
  535. ralphm https://upload.ik.nu/upload/znHKmh6s2V5UMyMh/Screenshot%20from%202022-03-10%2017-18-13.png
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  546. ralphm It is has been tied to UK time for I think as long as I've been on Board, at least. I can also say it is tied to UTC but changes exactly around European DST changeover, but haha.
  547. moparisthebest just need to know the exact TZ and then figure out how to set that exactly in your calendar application, I don't normally mess with it much
  548. Daniel > my only hope is that I'm retired before we have to deal with mars timezones Luckily there is https://www.marsti.me/
  549. moparisthebest runs away screaming
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  572. arc Then why has the calendar entry for today's meeting jumped two hours forwardp
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  577. moparisthebest if you set the TZ correctly then whatever time it says is the right time
  578. arc It showed up as 9:00 a.m. last week but 11:00 a.m. this week
  579. jonas’ arc, probably because it's pinned to europe/berlin timezone or so
  580. moparisthebest don't question the TZ lords
  581. arc But you haven't had a DST shift yet?
  582. jonas’ exactly
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  584. jonas’ but you had
  585. jonas’ so it shifted in your local time calendar
  586. arc No ours changes Sunday
  587. jonas’ time is relative
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  590. jonas’ ok then I have no clue
  591. MattJ No DST here
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  593. moparisthebest yep, sunday here
  594. jonas’ arc, is your tzinfo up-to-date? :)
  595. arc Second Sunday in March
  596. arc Yes.
  597. MattJ Okay, so there is no change this week
  598. MattJ for anyone
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  601. arc So I'm literally saying that the statement that we should just trust the Google calendar is false. Again. This comes up every single year.
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  604. arc I'm looking at Google calendar right now. Last week was 9: 00am as usual, this week is 11am.
  605. moparisthebest my calendar says council was 11am this week, and is 12pm next week, which sounds right
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  608. moparisthebest stop trusting google, problem solved
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  611. Ge0rG stop trusting your eyes. all problems solved
  612. jonas’ hands a fork
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  616. MattJ arc, okay, I just looked in Google calendar, and you're right
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  618. MattJ The event time has changed from 5pm to 7pm for me
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  620. MattJ I don't think this is anything to do with DST
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  651. ralphm That is really weird
  652. ralphm I mean, I showed you the screenshot, no?
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  654. ralphm It has 17:00 UK time there, but indeed on my Android app it shows at 20:00 CET, which is two hours later.
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  656. ralphm Oh, the screenshot is from next week's. Never mind. I think this is a Google bug.
  657. ralphm There moved it back.
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  674. ralphm bangs gavel
  675. ralphm 0. Welcome
  676. ralphm So with all the confusing times and time confusion, who do we have?
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  683. jcbrand MattJ, arc?
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  700. arc Here but I thought we weren't starting for two more hours?
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  702. mathieui arc: board, not members meeting
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  704. Ge0rG is it member meeting today?
  705. mathieui (Which is at 19:30 UTC if my memory works)
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  708. ralphm yes
  709. jonas’ did I vote?
  710. jonas’ I did not!
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  712. arc Okay so maybe I missed something but I said that the calendar says that the meeting starts at 11 today, 2 hours after we usually start, and I was told that the calendar is right
  713. ralphm For those still confused about things: this is the shared calender we use: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com
  714. arc That calendar is what created this week's confusion!
  715. ralphm ralphm‎: That is really weird ralphm‎: I mean, I showed you the screenshot, no? ralphm‎: It has 17:00 UK time there, but indeed on my Android app it shows at 20:00 CET, which is two hours later. ralphm‎: Oh, the screenshot is from next week's. Never mind. I think this is a Google bug. ralphm‎: There moved it back.
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  717. ralphm arc: ok, so there was a bug. Can we please move on?
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  719. arc Sure
  720. MattJ 👍
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  722. ralphm What _interesting_ items do we have today?
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  724. ralphm I saw the acceptance into GSoC. Yay. Not sure if there's anything to discuss there.
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  728. MattJ I don't have anything to bring. Except to congratulate everyone who worked on our successful GSoC application.
  729. MattJ Slow typing on mobile 🙂
  730. ralphm Also, Sam asked to be Editor again
  731. MattJ We handled that at the last meeting
  732. arc And we voted him in 2 weeks ago
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  734. jonas’ he also started doing things actually, so thanks to Sam
  735. ralphm I missed that / minutes
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  737. ralphm yay
  738. ralphm Also +1 :D
  739. Sam AOB: please make it so the editor can just bring on editors and not consult the board, who should really not have to approve every volunteer.
  740. Sam (but thanks)
  741. ralphm In fact, Council decides and Board affirms
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  743. ralphm And this is because it is an official work team, so yeah, that's how we do things.
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  746. ralphm (at the bottom here: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/editor-team/)
  747. Sam I'd like to propose that we change how we do things. It's ridiculous.
  748. jonas’ council what?
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  750. jonas’ look at that
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  752. MattJ Sam is an illegal editor?! 😅
  753. ralphm Sam: so either we change the Bylaws (8.3) or we make Editors a not-a-work-team. I'm not in favor of either, but convince me otherwise.
  754. Sam goes mad with the power
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  759. moparisthebest Sam: Rogue Editor for XSF
  760. MattJ It does seem excessively bureaucratic to me, to need 3 trusted (groups of) people to approve a new member
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  762. ralphm 2
  763. Sam (sorry, didn't mean to derail, this is a thing I'd actually like to discuss during AOB or at some point though)
  764. moparisthebest who does to XSF jail for letting Sam become an editor without council approval?
  765. ralphm or, apparently, just one (Board)
  766. ralphm Sam: we're well in AOB territory
  767. moparisthebest who goes to XSF jail for letting Sam become an editor without council approval?
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  770. MattJ ralphm: I'd be happy for, in this case, Jonas or the council to be able to amend the editor team
  771. ralphm moparisthebest: all of Board, possibly jonas’
  772. Kev I don't see why the Board can't decide that they autoapprove anyone chosen by X.
  773. Kev Without changing bylaws.
  774. ralphm Ok
  775. ralphm motions that the Council chair can appoint Editors, with automatic confirmation by Board.
  776. arc Yes
  777. MattJ +1 from me
  778. Kev There does, I think, need to be a call from membership, but nothing about how long that's allowed to last.
  779. ralphm +1
  780. Kev And there have been such calls in the past, so ...
  781. Kev (Note that I do think this arrangement would need refreshing by each subsequent Board, but that doesn't seem onerous)
  782. ralphm Kev: "jonas': hey people who wants to be an editor? Sam: I do. jonas': ktxbye
  783. ralphm "
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  786. moparisthebest well it's Daniel this council but sure
  787. Kev Ralph: I was suggesting that there have been calls in the past, so the "after a call" is technically satisfied :)
  788. ralphm oh, right
  789. ralphm hah
  790. ralphm jcbrand?
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  792. Kev I think it would be more in spirit of the rules to refresh the call before appointing more Editors, but don't feel strongly enough to make any noise about it.
  793. Kev Realistically, one person is going to join the team, and one can go too far with beaurocracy :)
  794. jcbrand +1
  795. ralphm Kev: I remember from being a student there was a custom to throw glasses on the floor, to train the bartender in their debating skills on figuring out who did it. The question “who's broken a glass” was, well, not productive.
  796. ralphm Motion carries.
  797. ralphm AOAOB?
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  799. MattJ None here
  800. ralphm 1. AOB
  801. ralphm See above
  802. ralphm 2. Date of Next
  803. ralphm +1W (so that's still 17:00 UTC)
  804. ralphm 3. Close.
  805. ralphm Thanks all!
  806. ralphm bangs gavel
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  809. Sam (sorry, got pulled away into another meeting; thanks all)
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  883. emus Hello ralphm, I have a board topic: GSoC payment information I need to know what I should provide to Google later on. > For orgs who need to change their financial details for GSoC 2022, the deadline to have all of your Payoneer account information completed is July 15, 2022 as described in the Program Rules. We will not pay out stipends to any orgs who miss this hard deadline. We'll send more details about receiving stipends etc. in May so you'll have 2 months to get everything in order. Payoneer account?
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  887. arc Member meeting time?
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  891. Alex in 30 minutes
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  893. Alex because of bourd meeting I moved it 30 mintes back this time
  894. Kev Board meeting was 2 hours ago :D
  895. Sam It's impossible to know when the board meeting is because they insist on making people convert between two moving timezones instead of using a fixed one like UTC ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  896. Alex in my cal it showed up 2 hours later
  897. Kev Although in this case it was completely unrelated to timezones.
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  900. ralphm I blame Google for mucking up today's meeting time.
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  902. ralphm emus: please contact stpeter directly, no need for Board to be involved
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  907. emus ok
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  913. emus can anyone forward my contact to him? Delivery to his ID fails 😕
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  931. arc Ok now meeting time lol
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  935. Alex ya, getting ready
  936. Alex bangs the gavel
  937. Alex Here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-03-10
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  939. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
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  941. Alex as you can see 34 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
  942. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  943. Alex new and returning members, you can see ll applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2022
  944. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  945. arc Voting affirmative for all candidates.
  946. Alex anyone members here who have not voted yet and want to vote her ein the meeting?
  947. arc Yup. Memberbot messages are undeliverable for me, so there's my vote
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  950. Alex arc: okay, have your votes
  951. Alex you wanna add another jid for next voting period?
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  963. arc I'm not right now if we can just take my vote on text here for now
  964. arc Between work and finals coming up, plus volunteer duties, I don't really have a lot of time for sysadmin work
  965. arc It is likely just an expired certificate again
  966. Alex anyone else? Otherwise I will start working on the results
  967. Zash Pretty sure I voted already
  968. Alex yes you did
  969. Zash Excellent
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  971. emus I would say go ahead Alex But one suggestion. Let's announce such meetings on the mailing at the same day
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  974. Alex I can send same day reminder when it helps. Not sure wow many memebrs are yousing our Google cals
  975. emus I mean members@ (I am not using it, but I did vote already anyway)
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  979. Alex many applicants, still counting ;-)
  980. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  981. Zash 🥁️
  982. arc Drumroll
  983. Alex When you reload the page you can see the results here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-03-10#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
  984. Alex congrats to everyone
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  987. arc Damn. Two candidates voted back in by narrow vote.
  988. arc I think that must be the closest I've ever seen
  989. Alex ya, pretty close
  990. arc Two people flipping their votes..
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  992. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  993. Kev None here.
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  995. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  996. Kev Seconded.
  997. arc Thanks Alex
  998. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  999. Kev Thanks Alex.
  1000. Alex bangs the gavel
  1001. mathieui Thanks Alex
  1002. Sam Thank you
  1003. arc Your continued diligence to the member meetings is extremely respectable
  1004. mathieui Congrats to everyone
  1005. arc I have my application already in for Q2
  1006. arc Including the updated employer information
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  1012. Guus Thank you Alex! Welcome, Ali!
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  1015. emus Welcome Ali!
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  1067. emus Folks, I am try to make a new track for tweets and toots on XEPs. That could be a simple picture to add to this:
  1068. emus https://jabbers.one:5281/upload/RTy3KG1hSsPkFPDZ/eb337256-ef9e-46ac-8e0c-456c07e697d9.png
  1069. emus Would you use differnt text? for example XEP Specification ?
  1070. emus jonas'
  1071. emus mdosch
  1072. emus sam
  1073. emus who else is in the editor team?
  1074. arc has left
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  1076. emus Another thing: Maybe the GSoC track could be used to get students into specifications too (likely not this time) - just an idea, then both editor and student get at least some money But maybe Google Docs program is more suitable
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  1079. Kev We can't use GSoC for spec work, it's against the rules.
  1080. Kev It has to be software work.
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  1082. emus ah okay, thanks
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  1084. flow + having students write new specifications is a prime example for a task not suitable for most students who are not really familiar with xmpp
  1085. emus Yes, I know
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  1087. emus was just thinking loud
  1088. Kev That is also not untrue.
  1089. flow otoh, students implementing existing specifications, are, like anyone who implements existing specifications, a good source of feedback regarding that specification
  1090. iink has left
  1091. Kev But I think a student could be mentored to write a spec if they can be mentored to write software.
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  1096. flow Depends on the student i'd say
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  1098. moparisthebest writing specs is annoying, writing code is fun...
  1099. emus Well - if we agree it would be a good idea in general - then we could find a way to test this and give it a try. Maybe in another setting
  1100. moparisthebest you'll notice none of the "successful" messengers write any specs at all...
  1101. emus I can imagine there are people interested if we have people here being interested
  1102. flow moparisthebest, not sure if it is true
  1103. flow just because we don't have access to a spec does not mean that it hasn't been written
  1104. emus Still happy to hear comments to the image & idea for posts ^ 😉
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  1108. flow to be frank: I don't think I understand what the idea exatly is :(
  1109. moparisthebest full whatsapp spec: Be as evil as possible while still retaining users
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  1126. emus flow: i want to occasionally post about e.g. new XEPs "XEP-1234 has been proposed! Short description Author" Image ^
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  1139. Neustradamus Congrats to all, welcome Ali, and thanks for your support!
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  1155. msavoritias > emus wrote: > flow: i want to occasionally post about e.g. new XEPs > "XEP-1234 has been proposed! > Short description > Author" > Image ^ Sounds good to me. Also a nice way to make it known what xmpp can do and that it is still alive ;) I bet in the fediverse its a lot of tech minded people so it would be of more interest there.
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