arcOkay so I'm not sure when the board meeting is today. I was wrong last week and Google calendar is saying is at 11:00 a.m. now?
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arcBut Google's also saying that the member meeting for q1 is it the same time
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MattJHas the US done DST already?
MattJBoard is in +1h as far as I'm concerned
arcSunday
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arcYeah so it was 9:00 a.m. my time, and it's 8am now. But last week nobody showed up and Google calendar showed it was off so I wasn't sure
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MattJYep. Sorry, DST wasn't on my radar just yet. If we have a meeting today maybe we can discuss if we want to move it at all (or even skip a few weeks until we're back in alignment)
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arcI know that this comes off as a bit annoying but this is why I think that all of our times should be UTC explicit. Because the way it is now around the DST shift times tend to swing wildly 2 hours in a manner that's rather complicated to understand unless you're in the time zone the DST is based on
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arcOf course soon enough I won't have daylight savings time anymore. Oregon and Washington are just waiting on California at this point, and then PDT will no longer exist as a time zone
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arcThe shipping clerks at work were having a hell of a week trying to sort out all the arrival times for trucks over the next week. We have trucks arriving from multiple time zones, including Nevada and Arizona, all with fixed departure times and drive times. Every single route had to be recalculated, it was madness.
MattJI know we've had this discussion before, and my counter-argument is that it is always going to swing wildly for someone. UTC is "fair" because it changes for both (but more times, because we would presumably adjust the pinned time too). But fairness is not necessarily how we maximize attendance (not that anything else is doing a good job at that so far).
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arcSure but that also forces us to make explicit changes to meeting times. Which is especially useful when literally no one shows up for a meeting before the times start changing
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MattJI don't feel strongly either way - I think times should always be communicated in UTC at least. And if DST happens and it's a time I can't attend, I'll just be clear about that
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KevAre you both talking about saying e.g. "Next week DST hits Europe, so the next meeting will be at 1500Z instead of this week's 1600Z"? If so, that seems to have worked ok for Council in prior years.
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MattJI can see arguments for pinning to the DST rules of the majority, but I also don't expect you to wake up at crazy hours just for meetings that statistically is unlikely to occur anyway...
KevOr are you talking about "It's always 1600Z...until someone says they can't make it any more, and it gets moved", where the reason is likely to be DST that someone raises that?
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jonas’(though council has in the previous two terms consisted exclusively of europeans, I think)
Danielcan’t you just fix the calander entry?
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Danielto be pinned to the correct time zone
jonas’this term, council pinned the calendar entry to Europe/Berlin and *I* did not even notice the DST change in US, moparisthebest just showed up on time :)
Kevjonas' - fair. I don't believe that to have been the case for my Councils.
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moparisthebestI was careful to ask exactly what TZ our meeting was scheduled in and carefully set my calendar to that, as a programmer burned one too many times by timezones :P
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moparisthebestmy only hope is that I'm retired before we have to deal with mars timezones
ralphmIt is has been tied to UK time for I think as long as I've been on Board, at least. I can also say it is tied to UTC but changes exactly around European DST changeover, but haha.
moparisthebestjust need to know the exact TZ and then figure out how to set that exactly in your calendar application, I don't normally mess with it much
Daniel> my only hope is that I'm retired before we have to deal with mars timezones
Luckily there is https://www.marsti.me/
moparisthebestruns away screaming
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arcThen why has the calendar entry for today's meeting jumped two hours forwardp
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moparisthebestif you set the TZ correctly then whatever time it says is the right time
arcIt showed up as 9:00 a.m. last week but 11:00 a.m. this week
jonas’arc, probably because it's pinned to europe/berlin timezone or so
moparisthebestdon't question the TZ lords
arcBut you haven't had a DST shift yet?
jonas’exactly
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jonas’but you had
jonas’so it shifted in your local time calendar
arcNo ours changes Sunday
jonas’time is relative
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jonas’ok then I have no clue
MattJNo DST here
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moparisthebestyep, sunday here
jonas’arc, is your tzinfo up-to-date? :)
arcSecond Sunday in March
arcYes.
MattJOkay, so there is no change this week
MattJfor anyone
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arcSo I'm literally saying that the statement that we should just trust the Google calendar is false. Again. This comes up every single year.
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arcI'm looking at Google calendar right now. Last week was 9: 00am as usual, this week is 11am.
moparisthebestmy calendar says council was 11am this week, and is 12pm next week, which sounds right
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moparisthebeststop trusting google, problem solved
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Ge0rGstop trusting your eyes. all problems solved
jonas’hands a fork
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MattJarc, okay, I just looked in Google calendar, and you're right
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MattJThe event time has changed from 5pm to 7pm for me
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MattJI don't think this is anything to do with DST
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ralphmThat is really weird
ralphmI mean, I showed you the screenshot, no?
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ralphmIt has 17:00 UK time there, but indeed on my Android app it shows at 20:00 CET, which is two hours later.
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ralphmOh, the screenshot is from next week's. Never mind. I think this is a Google bug.
ralphmThere moved it back.
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jcbrand👋
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ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm0. Welcome
ralphmSo with all the confusing times and time confusion, who do we have?
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jcbrandMattJ, arc?
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arcHere but I thought we weren't starting for two more hours?
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mathieuiarc: board, not members meeting
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Ge0rGis it member meeting today?
mathieui(Which is at 19:30 UTC if my memory works)
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ralphmyes
jonas’did I vote?
jonas’I did not!
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arcOkay so maybe I missed something but I said that the calendar says that the meeting starts at 11 today, 2 hours after we usually start, and I was told that the calendar is right
ralphmFor those still confused about things: this is the shared calender we use: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com
arcThat calendar is what created this week's confusion!
ralphmralphm: That is really weird
ralphm: I mean, I showed you the screenshot, no?
ralphm: It has 17:00 UK time there, but indeed on my Android app it shows at 20:00 CET, which is two hours later.
ralphm: Oh, the screenshot is from next week's. Never mind. I think this is a Google bug.
ralphm: There moved it back.
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ralphmarc: ok, so there was a bug. Can we please move on?
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arcSure
MattJ👍
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ralphmWhat _interesting_ items do we have today?
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ralphmI saw the acceptance into GSoC. Yay. Not sure if there's anything to discuss there.
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MattJI don't have anything to bring. Except to congratulate everyone who worked on our successful GSoC application.
MattJSlow typing on mobile 🙂
ralphmAlso, Sam asked to be Editor again
MattJWe handled that at the last meeting
arcAnd we voted him in 2 weeks ago
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jonas’he also started doing things actually, so thanks to Sam
ralphmI missed that / minutes
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ralphmyay
ralphmAlso +1 :D
SamAOB: please make it so the editor can just bring on editors and not consult the board, who should really not have to approve every volunteer.
Sam(but thanks)
ralphmIn fact, Council decides and Board affirms
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ralphmAnd this is because it is an official work team, so yeah, that's how we do things.
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ralphm(at the bottom here: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/editor-team/)
SamI'd like to propose that we change how we do things. It's ridiculous.
jonas’council what?
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jonas’look at that
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MattJSam is an illegal editor?! 😅
ralphmSam: so either we change the Bylaws (8.3) or we make Editors a not-a-work-team. I'm not in favor of either, but convince me otherwise.
Samgoes mad with the power
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moparisthebestSam: Rogue Editor for XSF
MattJIt does seem excessively bureaucratic to me, to need 3 trusted (groups of) people to approve a new member
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Sam(sorry, didn't mean to derail, this is a thing I'd actually like to discuss during AOB or at some point though)
moparisthebestwho does to XSF jail for letting Sam become an editor without council approval?✎
ralphmor, apparently, just one (Board)
ralphmSam: we're well in AOB territory
moparisthebestwho goes to XSF jail for letting Sam become an editor without council approval? ✏
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MattJralphm: I'd be happy for, in this case, Jonas or the council to be able to amend the editor team
ralphmmoparisthebest: all of Board, possibly jonas’
KevI don't see why the Board can't decide that they autoapprove anyone chosen by X.
KevWithout changing bylaws.
ralphmOk
ralphmmotions that the Council chair can appoint Editors, with automatic confirmation by Board.
arcYes
MattJ+1 from me
KevThere does, I think, need to be a call from membership, but nothing about how long that's allowed to last.
ralphm+1
KevAnd there have been such calls in the past, so ...
Kev(Note that I do think this arrangement would need refreshing by each subsequent Board, but that doesn't seem onerous)
ralphmKev: "jonas': hey people who wants to be an editor? Sam: I do. jonas': ktxbye
ralphm"
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moparisthebestwell it's Daniel this council but sure
KevRalph: I was suggesting that there have been calls in the past, so the "after a call" is technically satisfied :)
ralphmoh, right
ralphmhah
ralphmjcbrand?
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KevI think it would be more in spirit of the rules to refresh the call before appointing more Editors, but don't feel strongly enough to make any noise about it.
KevRealistically, one person is going to join the team, and one can go too far with beaurocracy :)
jcbrand+1
ralphmKev: I remember from being a student there was a custom to throw glasses on the floor, to train the bartender in their debating skills on figuring out who did it. The question “who's broken a glass” was, well, not productive.
ralphmMotion carries.
ralphmAOAOB?
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MattJNone here
ralphm1. AOB
ralphmSee above
ralphm2. Date of Next
ralphm+1W (so that's still 17:00 UTC)
ralphm3. Close.
ralphmThanks all!
ralphmbangs gavel
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Sam(sorry, got pulled away into another meeting; thanks all)
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emusHello ralphm,
I have a board topic: GSoC payment information
I need to know what I should provide to Google later on.
> For orgs who need to change their financial details for GSoC 2022, the deadline to have all of your Payoneer account information completed is July 15, 2022 as described in the Program Rules. We will not pay out stipends to any orgs who miss this hard deadline. We'll send more details about receiving stipends etc. in May so you'll have 2 months to get everything in order.
Payoneer account?
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arcMember meeting time?
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Alexin 30 minutes
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Alexbecause of bourd meeting I moved it 30 mintes back this time
KevBoard meeting was 2 hours ago :D
SamIt's impossible to know when the board meeting is because they insist on making people convert between two moving timezones instead of using a fixed one like UTC ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Alexin my cal it showed up 2 hours later
KevAlthough in this case it was completely unrelated to timezones.
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ralphmI blame Google for mucking up today's meeting time.
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ralphmemus: please contact stpeter directly, no need for Board to be involved
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emusok
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emuscan anyone forward my contact to him? Delivery to his ID fails 😕
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arcOk now meeting time lol
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Alexya, getting ready
Alexbangs the gavel
AlexHere is our Agenda for today:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-03-10
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Alex1) Call for Quorum
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Alexas you can see 34 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
Alex2) Items Subject to a Vote
Alexnew and returning members, you can see ll applicants here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2022
Alex3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
arcVoting affirmative for all candidates.
Alexanyone members here who have not voted yet and want to vote her ein the meeting?
arcYup. Memberbot messages are undeliverable for me, so there's my vote
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Alexarc: okay, have your votes
Alexyou wanna add another jid for next voting period?
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arcI'm not right now if we can just take my vote on text here for now
arcBetween work and finals coming up, plus volunteer duties, I don't really have a lot of time for sysadmin work
arcIt is likely just an expired certificate again
Alexanyone else? Otherwise I will start working on the results
ZashPretty sure I voted already
Alexyes you did
ZashExcellent
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emusI would say go ahead Alex
But one suggestion. Let's announce such meetings on the mailing at the same day
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AlexI can send same day reminder when it helps. Not sure wow many memebrs are yousing our Google cals
emusI mean members@ (I am not using it, but I did vote already anyway)
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Alexmany applicants, still counting ;-)
Alex4) Announcement of Voting Results
Zash🥁️
arcDrumroll
AlexWhen you reload the page you can see the results here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-03-10#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
Alexcongrats to everyone
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arcDamn. Two candidates voted back in by narrow vote.
arcI think that must be the closest I've ever seen
Alexya, pretty close
arcTwo people flipping their votes..
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Alex5) Any Other Business?
KevNone here.
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Alex6) Formal Adjournment
KevSeconded.
arcThanks Alex
AlexI motion that we adjourn
KevThanks Alex.
Alexbangs the gavel
mathieuiThanks Alex
SamThank you
arcYour continued diligence to the member meetings is extremely respectable
mathieuiCongrats to everyone
arcI have my application already in for Q2
arcIncluding the updated employer information
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GuusThank you Alex! Welcome, Ali!
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emusWelcome Ali!
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emusFolks, I am try to make a new track for tweets and toots on XEPs. That could be a simple picture to add to this:
emusWould you use differnt text? for example XEP Specification ?
emusjonas'
emusmdosch
emussam
emuswho else is in the editor team?
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emusAnother thing: Maybe the GSoC track could be used to get students into specifications too (likely not this time) - just an idea, then both editor and student get at least some money
But maybe Google Docs program is more suitable
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KevWe can't use GSoC for spec work, it's against the rules.
KevIt has to be software work.
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emusah okay, thanks
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flow+ having students write new specifications is a prime example for a task not suitable for most students who are not really familiar with xmpp
emusYes, I know
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emuswas just thinking loud
KevThat is also not untrue.
flowotoh, students implementing existing specifications, are, like anyone who implements existing specifications, a good source of feedback regarding that specification
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KevBut I think a student could be mentored to write a spec if they can be mentored to write software.
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flowDepends on the student i'd say
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moparisthebestwriting specs is annoying, writing code is fun...
emusWell - if we agree it would be a good idea in general - then we could find a way to test this and give it a try. Maybe in another setting
moparisthebestyou'll notice none of the "successful" messengers write any specs at all...
emusI can imagine there are people interested if we have people here being interested
flowmoparisthebest, not sure if it is true
flowjust because we don't have access to a spec does not mean that it hasn't been written
emusStill happy to hear comments to the image & idea for posts ^ 😉
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flowto be frank: I don't think I understand what the idea exatly is :(
moparisthebestfull whatsapp spec: Be as evil as possible while still retaining users
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emusflow: i want to occasionally post about e.g. new XEPs
"XEP-1234 has been proposed!
Short description
Author"
Image ^
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NeustradamusCongrats to all, welcome Ali, and thanks for your support!
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msavoritias> emus wrote:
> flow: i want to occasionally post about e.g. new XEPs
> "XEP-1234 has been proposed!
> Short description
> Author"
> Image ^
Sounds good to me. Also a nice way to make it known what xmpp can do and that it is still alive ;)
I bet in the fediverse its a lot of tech minded people so it would be of more interest there.