XSF Discussion - 2022-03-10

Okay so I'm not sure when the board meeting is today. I was wrong last week and Google calendar is saying is at 11:00 a.m. now?

But Google's also saying that the member meeting for q1 is it the same time

Has the US done DST already?

Board is in +1h as far as I'm concerned

Sunday

Yeah so it was 9:00 a.m. my time, and it's 8am now. But last week nobody showed up and Google calendar showed it was off so I wasn't sure

Yep. Sorry, DST wasn't on my radar just yet. If we have a meeting today maybe we can discuss if we want to move it at all (or even skip a few weeks until we're back in alignment)

I know that this comes off as a bit annoying but this is why I think that all of our times should be UTC explicit. Because the way it is now around the DST shift times tend to swing wildly 2 hours in a manner that's rather complicated to understand unless you're in the time zone the DST is based on

Of course soon enough I won't have daylight savings time anymore. Oregon and Washington are just waiting on California at this point, and then PDT will no longer exist as a time zone

The shipping clerks at work were having a hell of a week trying to sort out all the arrival times for trucks over the next week. We have trucks arriving from multiple time zones, including Nevada and Arizona, all with fixed departure times and drive times. Every single route had to be recalculated, it was madness.

I know we've had this discussion before, and my counter-argument is that it is always going to swing wildly for someone. UTC is "fair" because it changes for both (but more times, because we would presumably adjust the pinned time too). But fairness is not necessarily how we maximize attendance (not that anything else is doing a good job at that so far).

Sure but that also forces us to make explicit changes to meeting times. Which is especially useful when literally no one shows up for a meeting before the times start changing

I don't feel strongly either way - I think times should always be communicated in UTC at least. And if DST happens and it's a time I can't attend, I'll just be clear about that

Are you both talking about saying e.g. "Next week DST hits Europe, so the next meeting will be at 1500Z instead of this week's 1600Z"? If so, that seems to have worked ok for Council in prior years.

I can see arguments for pinning to the DST rules of the majority, but I also don't expect you to wake up at crazy hours just for meetings that statistically is unlikely to occur anyway...

Or are you talking about "It's always 1600Z...until someone says they can't make it any more, and it gets moved", where the reason is likely to be DST that someone raises that?

(though council has in the previous two terms consisted exclusively of europeans, I think)

can’t you just fix the calander entry?

to be pinned to the correct time zone

this term, council pinned the calendar entry to Europe/Berlin and *I* did not even notice the DST change in US, moparisthebest just showed up on time :)

jonas' - fair. I don't believe that to have been the case for my Councils.

I was careful to ask exactly what TZ our meeting was scheduled in and carefully set my calendar to that, as a programmer burned one too many times by timezones :P

my only hope is that I'm retired before we have to deal with mars timezones

https://upload.ik.nu/upload/znHKmh6s2V5UMyMh/Screenshot%20from%202022-03-10%2017-18-13.png

It is has been tied to UK time for I think as long as I've been on Board, at least. I can also say it is tied to UTC but changes exactly around European DST changeover, but haha.

just need to know the exact TZ and then figure out how to set that exactly in your calendar application, I don't normally mess with it much

> my only hope is that I'm retired before we have to deal with mars timezones Luckily there is https://www.marsti.me/

Then why has the calendar entry for today's meeting jumped two hours forwardp

if you set the TZ correctly then whatever time it says is the right time

It showed up as 9:00 a.m. last week but 11:00 a.m. this week

arc, probably because it's pinned to europe/berlin timezone or so

don't question the TZ lords

But you haven't had a DST shift yet?

exactly

but you had

so it shifted in your local time calendar

No ours changes Sunday

time is relative

ok then I have no clue

No DST here

yep, sunday here

arc, is your tzinfo up-to-date? :)

Second Sunday in March

Yes.

Okay, so there is no change this week

for anyone

So I'm literally saying that the statement that we should just trust the Google calendar is false. Again. This comes up every single year.

I'm looking at Google calendar right now. Last week was 9: 00am as usual, this week is 11am.

my calendar says council was 11am this week, and is 12pm next week, which sounds right

stop trusting google, problem solved

stop trusting your eyes. all problems solved

arc, okay, I just looked in Google calendar, and you're right

The event time has changed from 5pm to 7pm for me

I don't think this is anything to do with DST

That is really weird

I mean, I showed you the screenshot, no?

It has 17:00 UK time there, but indeed on my Android app it shows at 20:00 CET, which is two hours later.

Oh, the screenshot is from next week's. Never mind. I think this is a Google bug.

There moved it back.

👋

0. Welcome

So with all the confusing times and time confusion, who do we have?

MattJ, arc?

Here but I thought we weren't starting for two more hours?

arc: board, not members meeting

is it member meeting today?

(Which is at 19:30 UTC if my memory works)

yes

did I vote?

I did not!

Okay so maybe I missed something but I said that the calendar says that the meeting starts at 11 today, 2 hours after we usually start, and I was told that the calendar is right

For those still confused about things: this is the shared calender we use: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com

That calendar is what created this week's confusion!

ralphm‎: That is really weird ralphm‎: I mean, I showed you the screenshot, no? ralphm‎: It has 17:00 UK time there, but indeed on my Android app it shows at 20:00 CET, which is two hours later. ralphm‎: Oh, the screenshot is from next week's. Never mind. I think this is a Google bug. ralphm‎: There moved it back.

arc: ok, so there was a bug. Can we please move on?

Sure

👍

What _interesting_ items do we have today?

I saw the acceptance into GSoC. Yay. Not sure if there's anything to discuss there.

I don't have anything to bring. Except to congratulate everyone who worked on our successful GSoC application.

Slow typing on mobile 🙂

Also, Sam asked to be Editor again

We handled that at the last meeting

And we voted him in 2 weeks ago

he also started doing things actually, so thanks to Sam

I missed that / minutes

yay

Also +1 :D

AOB: please make it so the editor can just bring on editors and not consult the board, who should really not have to approve every volunteer.

(but thanks)

In fact, Council decides and Board affirms

And this is because it is an official work team, so yeah, that's how we do things.

(at the bottom here: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/editor-team/)

I'd like to propose that we change how we do things. It's ridiculous.

council what?

look at that

Sam is an illegal editor?! 😅

Sam: so either we change the Bylaws (8.3) or we make Editors a not-a-work-team. I'm not in favor of either, but convince me otherwise.

Sam: Rogue Editor for XSF

It does seem excessively bureaucratic to me, to need 3 trusted (groups of) people to approve a new member

2

(sorry, didn't mean to derail, this is a thing I'd actually like to discuss during AOB or at some point though)

or, apparently, just one (Board)

Sam: we're well in AOB territory

who goes to XSF jail for letting Sam become an editor without council approval? ✏

ralphm: I'd be happy for, in this case, Jonas or the council to be able to amend the editor team

moparisthebest: all of Board, possibly jonas’

I don't see why the Board can't decide that they autoapprove anyone chosen by X.

Without changing bylaws.

Ok

Yes

+1 from me

There does, I think, need to be a call from membership, but nothing about how long that's allowed to last.

+1

And there have been such calls in the past, so ...

(Note that I do think this arrangement would need refreshing by each subsequent Board, but that doesn't seem onerous)

Kev: "jonas': hey people who wants to be an editor? Sam: I do. jonas': ktxbye

"

well it's Daniel this council but sure

Ralph: I was suggesting that there have been calls in the past, so the "after a call" is technically satisfied :)

oh, right

hah

jcbrand?

I think it would be more in spirit of the rules to refresh the call before appointing more Editors, but don't feel strongly enough to make any noise about it.

Realistically, one person is going to join the team, and one can go too far with beaurocracy :)

+1

Kev: I remember from being a student there was a custom to throw glasses on the floor, to train the bartender in their debating skills on figuring out who did it. The question “who's broken a glass” was, well, not productive.

Motion carries.

AOAOB?

None here

1. AOB

See above

2. Date of Next

+1W (so that's still 17:00 UTC)

3. Close.

Thanks all!

(sorry, got pulled away into another meeting; thanks all)

Hello ralphm, I have a board topic: GSoC payment information I need to know what I should provide to Google later on. > For orgs who need to change their financial details for GSoC 2022, the deadline to have all of your Payoneer account information completed is July 15, 2022 as described in the Program Rules. We will not pay out stipends to any orgs who miss this hard deadline. We'll send more details about receiving stipends etc. in May so you'll have 2 months to get everything in order. Payoneer account?

Member meeting time?

in 30 minutes

because of bourd meeting I moved it 30 mintes back this time

Board meeting was 2 hours ago :D

It's impossible to know when the board meeting is because they insist on making people convert between two moving timezones instead of using a fixed one like UTC ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

in my cal it showed up 2 hours later

Although in this case it was completely unrelated to timezones.

I blame Google for mucking up today's meeting time.

emus: please contact stpeter directly, no need for Board to be involved

ok

can anyone forward my contact to him? Delivery to his ID fails 😕

Ok now meeting time lol

ya, getting ready

Here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-03-10

1) Call for Quorum

as you can see 34 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum

2) Items Subject to a Vote

new and returning members, you can see ll applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2022

3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting

Voting affirmative for all candidates.

anyone members here who have not voted yet and want to vote her ein the meeting?

Yup. Memberbot messages are undeliverable for me, so there's my vote

arc: okay, have your votes

you wanna add another jid for next voting period?

I'm not right now if we can just take my vote on text here for now

Between work and finals coming up, plus volunteer duties, I don't really have a lot of time for sysadmin work

It is likely just an expired certificate again

anyone else? Otherwise I will start working on the results

Pretty sure I voted already

yes you did

Excellent

I would say go ahead Alex But one suggestion. Let's announce such meetings on the mailing at the same day

I can send same day reminder when it helps. Not sure wow many memebrs are yousing our Google cals

I mean members@ (I am not using it, but I did vote already anyway)

many applicants, still counting ;-)

4) Announcement of Voting Results

🥁️

Drumroll

When you reload the page you can see the results here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-03-10#Announcement_of_Voting_Results

congrats to everyone

Damn. Two candidates voted back in by narrow vote.

I think that must be the closest I've ever seen

ya, pretty close

Two people flipping their votes..

5) Any Other Business?

None here.

6) Formal Adjournment

Seconded.

Thanks Alex

I motion that we adjourn

Thanks Alex.

Thanks Alex

Thank you

Your continued diligence to the member meetings is extremely respectable

Congrats to everyone

I have my application already in for Q2

Including the updated employer information

Thank you Alex! Welcome, Ali!

Welcome Ali!

Folks, I am try to make a new track for tweets and toots on XEPs. That could be a simple picture to add to this:

https://jabbers.one:5281/upload/RTy3KG1hSsPkFPDZ/eb337256-ef9e-46ac-8e0c-456c07e697d9.png

Would you use differnt text? for example XEP Specification ?

jonas'

mdosch

sam

who else is in the editor team?

Another thing: Maybe the GSoC track could be used to get students into specifications too (likely not this time) - just an idea, then both editor and student get at least some money But maybe Google Docs program is more suitable

We can't use GSoC for spec work, it's against the rules.

It has to be software work.

ah okay, thanks

+ having students write new specifications is a prime example for a task not suitable for most students who are not really familiar with xmpp

Yes, I know

was just thinking loud

That is also not untrue.

otoh, students implementing existing specifications, are, like anyone who implements existing specifications, a good source of feedback regarding that specification

But I think a student could be mentored to write a spec if they can be mentored to write software.

Depends on the student i'd say

writing specs is annoying, writing code is fun...

Well - if we agree it would be a good idea in general - then we could find a way to test this and give it a try. Maybe in another setting

you'll notice none of the "successful" messengers write any specs at all...

I can imagine there are people interested if we have people here being interested

moparisthebest, not sure if it is true

just because we don't have access to a spec does not mean that it hasn't been written

Still happy to hear comments to the image & idea for posts ^ 😉

to be frank: I don't think I understand what the idea exatly is :(

full whatsapp spec: Be as evil as possible while still retaining users

flow: i want to occasionally post about e.g. new XEPs "XEP-1234 has been proposed! Short description Author" Image ^

Congrats to all, welcome Ali, and thanks for your support!

> emus wrote: > flow: i want to occasionally post about e.g. new XEPs > "XEP-1234 has been proposed! > Short description > Author" > Image ^ Sounds good to me. Also a nice way to make it known what xmpp can do and that it is still alive ;) I bet in the fediverse its a lot of tech minded people so it would be of more interest there.