XSF Discussion - 2022-03-13

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  21. qy

    Isnt it just stun/turn servers? That goes away entirely with ipv6

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  26. moparisthebest

    > while servers are not required, they are still used in five specific cases: push notifications, the OpenDHT proxy, bootstrap, name server, and TURN.

  27. moparisthebest

    > That is why we created the OpenDHT proxy, a server that listens for changes on the OpenDHT network and sends notifications to Jami devices through Apple’s or Google’s push notification servers. Yikes

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  37. phryk

    Holy shite, I might actually be looking at a deployment for my service with the site handling invites and all next week. Been working on this so long it seems downright surreal to be "done" with it in any capacity…

  38. phryk


  39. phryk

    Added a client listing independent from the invite page and it's almost done. Besides that only the main menu has to be made responsive and texts finished…

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  43. moparisthebest

    Do Linux and BSD users need told installing things via package manager is free of charge?

  44. phryk

    moparisthebest, no, this is for the people who aren't aware that this is a thing.

  45. moparisthebest

    I wouldn't recommend those people to ever install OpenBSD or NetBSD though

  46. phryk

    mostly, this feature exists at all so that android users are shown a tangible benefit to using f-droid.

  47. phryk

    moparisthebest, well, seems i'm less judgy than you in that regard. :P

  48. phryk

    also these things are automatically built, so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  50. moparisthebest

    In 2004 I was on IRC asking for advice on what Linux distro to try, some jerk told me Gentoo would be a good starter distro :)

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  52. moparisthebest

    I didn't try Linux again for a whole year, lost a whole year of my Linux life on that absolutely terrible suggestion

  53. phryk

    in 2004 i tried opensuse and it scared me away from linux for years. then i went to ubuntu in 2007 or so and a year later to gentoo and i learned a lot ^-^

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  55. phryk

    actually my gentoo experience is a big part of why i like freebsd so much – in many regards it's like gentoo, but without all the hassle. :P

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  57. moparisthebest

    Similar, Kubuntu is what got me hooked in 2005

  58. moparisthebest

    Right, Gentoo and the BSDs are great, I just wouldn't recommend them to someone new is all

  59. phryk

    depends on the background, I'd say. more old-school people are often doing fine with something like that.

  60. phryk

    if people have last used windows 3.11, you can throw up a BSD with some DE and they might be fine because it's still more comfortable and self-explanatory than what they're used to.

  61. phryk

    people only used to smartphones are a different story, tho :P

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  63. phryk

    point being, i've been negatively and positively surprised about people being able to deal with obscure OS choices.

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  65. phryk

    and I'm not recommending people to install some flavor of UNIX on their machines anyhow :P

  66. moparisthebest

    When I say "someone new" I mean someone who has only used windows but yea I often forget people who have only used smartphones exist too :/

  67. phryk

    yeah, i think those are the majority by now^^

  68. phryk

    and for them any desktop OS is going to be a major change – even if it's "just" windows.

  69. moparisthebest

    I also find some older people who insist kids these days use windows and are surprised many never have, only Chromebooks etc

  70. phryk

    when i was a kid i used windows. tho in '04 when i tried opensuse i was… 16?^^

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  82. phryk

    I just went "wait that can't be right, I've used BSD for a decade and gentoo for like 5 years before that" and had a "Dang, I'm old" moment :<

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  84. moparisthebest

    Haha yep that'll do it

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  88. qy

    > In many regards it's like gentoo, but without all the hassle. :P

  89. qy

    Would you elaborate?

  90. qy

    Ive repeatedly tried to get into fbsd but its just never stuck with me

  91. qy

    Gentoo feels freer :/

  92. phryk

    qy, easy to build kernel and userland yourself, but easily available pre-compiled. same goes for packages/ports. manual installation is also super easy (format drives, mount them, install bootloader, untar kernel.txz and base.txz, done…

  93. qy

    Hmm. I feel like we may have different priorities then

  94. qy

    Fair enough!

  95. phryk

    Gentoo forces you to build everything (if you don't use bintoo or whatever) and I've always had it break on me necessitating multi-day cleanup/repair when not updating stuff for a couple months. With FreeBSD it's trivial to just maintain your own custom package repo with custom build options for everything.

  96. phryk

    So you only compile once and can use software on all your machines.

  97. phryk

    Yeah, that might well be. Everybody needs something different. I want a system that I can grok and automate and maintain locally with all software in case of apocalypse.

  98. phryk

    Also, I really like jails. :P

  99. qy


  100. moparisthebest

    We call those cgroups and namespaces :)

  101. phryk

    Have a custom thinjail setup based on jail.conf (which is part of FreeBSDs base system) so no docker disease and multi-gigabyte images for every service i run… :P

  102. qy

    Now that i like, but im sure i can replicate with lxc when i unlazy

  103. moparisthebest

    Plain old systemd can do it too

  104. phryk

    Ye, for me, FreeBSD is a very good tradeoff in that regard. I can do things in a lighter fashion while being lazy. Groking all these things on Linux distros was always harder for me… Maybe that's because of the integrated base system, not sure…

  105. phryk

    moparisthebest, I moved away from Linux before systemd was so widespread. Been hearing good and bad things, but it very much sounds like something that's hard to grok…

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  107. phryk

    Tho, I don't like Pöettering.^^

  108. moparisthebest

    my take is systemd is actually an excellent init system, best I've used by far... But I don't like it growing to try to take over everything else

  109. phryk

    Yeah, probably doesn't make it easier to understand either…

  110. moparisthebest

    phryk: luckily you can use "systemd the good parts" on the BSDs now https://github.com/InitWare/InitWare

  111. phryk

    And, I mean that kinda ties into the one legit criticism I know of it: putting too much into pid 1. pid 1 should be as small as possible.

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  113. phryk

    But a bunch of the features sound extremely practical.

  114. qy

    Systemd is the antithesis of that :p but in my experience trying to replace it everywhere i go, most of the "good stuff" is now in the alternatives too

  115. phryk

    moparisthebest, sounds interesting, but I'd rather not use something marked as "alpha" for init. :P

  116. qy

    Runit, openrc, s6, they have enough that i never miss Systemd

  117. phryk

    i ran openrc in my last stretch of gentoo, because it was a working drop-in replacement for sysvrc.

  118. phryk

    still looking for something better to take over init and cron for me, tho…

  119. phryk

    like for cron, I'd actually be looking more for something like an event handling engine or whatever these things are called now…

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  121. phryk

    and as for the pid 1 thing, that can be done in tiny fancy features if it's just a stub doing the most basic init functionality and IPC, then putting all the fancy stuff into other processes. not sure if systemd is doing this, tho…

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  123. phryk

    and as for the pid 1 thing, that can be done in tiny with fancy features if it's just a stub doing the most basic init functionality and IPC, then putting all the fancy stuff into other processes. not sure if systemd is doing this, tho…

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  125. qy

    Depends how liberally you define "tiny"... :p

  126. moparisthebest

    phryk: I think your description for a replacement for Cron just described systemd timers

  127. moparisthebest

    I still like Cron... :)

  128. phryk

    moparisthebest, nothing to do with timers. i mean stuff like "plugged in ethernet cable", "closed lid", "triggered case-open sensor"

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  140. moparisthebest

    phryk: oh well it does that too, using udev I think

  141. phryk

    not really surprised. like i said, a lot of the features sound really neat.

  142. phryk

    not sure about the engineering of it, but when my work laptop finally arrives I'll be looking into it. :P

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  144. phryk

    tho i think init and cron should be different processes, even if they communicate.

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  146. phryk

    another thing i'd like is to be able to hook init up to prometheus. no guessing if a service is actually up through proxy values like if it currently reports values…

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  151. phryk

    anyhow, going afk :)

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  153. qy

    I would shill s6 here, but i think that'd just be a pain 😶

  154. qy

    Anyway, with LMC https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html is "last message" by client or user?

  155. qy

    I notice clients seem to implement it as by-client, but i see no mention of that on the xep

  156. qy

    ...maybe for jdev

  157. moparisthebest

    qy: many clients only let you edit the last one the client sent but accept them for whatever

  158. qy


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  190. qy

    phryk: my laptop is now freebsd

  191. phryk

    lol nice^^

  192. qy

    (it was running a thin artix before anyway)

  193. phryk

    I'mma go sleep now.^^

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  195. qy


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  297. Alif Radhitya

    https://qoto.org/web/statuses/107939541090351099 Yeay

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  328. lukasf

    took a while

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