qyIsnt it just stun/turn servers? That goes away entirely with ipv6
moparisthebest> while servers are not required, they are still used in five specific cases: push notifications, the OpenDHT proxy, bootstrap, name server, and TURN.
moparisthebest> That is why we created the OpenDHT proxy, a server that listens for changes on the OpenDHT network and sends notifications to Jami devices through Apple’s or Google’s push notification servers.
phrykHoly shite, I might actually be looking at a deployment for my service with the site handling invites and all next week. Been working on this so long it seems downright surreal to be "done" with it in any capacity…
phrykAdded a client listing independent from the invite page and it's almost done. Besides that only the main menu has to be made responsive and texts finished…
moparisthebestDo Linux and BSD users need told installing things via package manager is free of charge?
phrykmoparisthebest, no, this is for the people who aren't aware that this is a thing.
moparisthebestI wouldn't recommend those people to ever install OpenBSD or NetBSD though
phrykmostly, this feature exists at all so that android users are shown a tangible benefit to using f-droid.
phrykmoparisthebest, well, seems i'm less judgy than you in that regard. :P
phrykalso these things are automatically built, so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
moparisthebestIn 2004 I was on IRC asking for advice on what Linux distro to try, some jerk told me Gentoo would be a good starter distro :)
moparisthebestI didn't try Linux again for a whole year, lost a whole year of my Linux life on that absolutely terrible suggestion
phrykin 2004 i tried opensuse and it scared me away from linux for years. then i went to ubuntu in 2007 or so and a year later to gentoo and i learned a lot ^-^
phrykactually my gentoo experience is a big part of why i like freebsd so much – in many regards it's like gentoo, but without all the hassle. :P
moparisthebestSimilar, Kubuntu is what got me hooked in 2005
moparisthebestRight, Gentoo and the BSDs are great, I just wouldn't recommend them to someone new is all
phrykdepends on the background, I'd say. more old-school people are often doing fine with something like that.
phrykif people have last used windows 3.11, you can throw up a BSD with some DE and they might be fine because it's still more comfortable and self-explanatory than what they're used to.
phrykpeople only used to smartphones are a different story, tho :P
phrykpoint being, i've been negatively and positively surprised about people being able to deal with obscure OS choices.
phrykand I'm not recommending people to install some flavor of UNIX on their machines anyhow :P
moparisthebestWhen I say "someone new" I mean someone who has only used windows but yea I often forget people who have only used smartphones exist too :/
phrykyeah, i think those are the majority by now^^
phrykand for them any desktop OS is going to be a major change – even if it's "just" windows.
moparisthebestI also find some older people who insist kids these days use windows and are surprised many never have, only Chromebooks etc
phrykwhen i was a kid i used windows. tho in '04 when i tried opensuse i was… 16?^^
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phrykI just went "wait that can't be right, I've used BSD for a decade and gentoo for like 5 years before that" and had a "Dang, I'm old" moment :<
moparisthebestHaha yep that'll do it
qy> In many regards it's like gentoo, but without all the hassle. :P
qyWould you elaborate?
qyIve repeatedly tried to get into fbsd but its just never stuck with me
qyGentoo feels freer :/
phrykqy, easy to build kernel and userland yourself, but easily available pre-compiled. same goes for packages/ports. manual installation is also super easy (format drives, mount them, install bootloader, untar kernel.txz and base.txz, done…
qyHmm. I feel like we may have different priorities then
phrykGentoo forces you to build everything (if you don't use bintoo or whatever) and I've always had it break on me necessitating multi-day cleanup/repair when not updating stuff for a couple months. With FreeBSD it's trivial to just maintain your own custom package repo with custom build options for everything.
phrykSo you only compile once and can use software on all your machines.
phrykYeah, that might well be. Everybody needs something different. I want a system that I can grok and automate and maintain locally with all software in case of apocalypse.
phrykAlso, I really like jails. :P
moparisthebestWe call those cgroups and namespaces :)
phrykHave a custom thinjail setup based on jail.conf (which is part of FreeBSDs base system) so no docker disease and multi-gigabyte images for every service i run… :P
qyNow that i like, but im sure i can replicate with lxc when i unlazy
moparisthebestPlain old systemd can do it too
phrykYe, for me, FreeBSD is a very good tradeoff in that regard. I can do things in a lighter fashion while being lazy. Groking all these things on Linux distros was always harder for me… Maybe that's because of the integrated base system, not sure…
phrykmoparisthebest, I moved away from Linux before systemd was so widespread. Been hearing good and bad things, but it very much sounds like something that's hard to grok…
phrykTho, I don't like Pöettering.^^
moparisthebestmy take is systemd is actually an excellent init system, best I've used by far... But I don't like it growing to try to take over everything else
phrykYeah, probably doesn't make it easier to understand either…
moparisthebestphryk: luckily you can use "systemd the good parts" on the BSDs now https://github.com/InitWare/InitWare
phrykAnd, I mean that kinda ties into the one legit criticism I know of it: putting too much into pid 1. pid 1 should be as small as possible.
phrykBut a bunch of the features sound extremely practical.
qySystemd is the antithesis of that :p but in my experience trying to replace it everywhere i go, most of the "good stuff" is now in the alternatives too
phrykmoparisthebest, sounds interesting, but I'd rather not use something marked as "alpha" for init. :P
qyRunit, openrc, s6, they have enough that i never miss Systemd
phryki ran openrc in my last stretch of gentoo, because it was a working drop-in replacement for sysvrc.
phrykstill looking for something better to take over init and cron for me, tho…
phryklike for cron, I'd actually be looking more for something like an event handling engine or whatever these things are called now…
phrykand as for the pid 1 thing, that can be done in tiny fancy features if it's just a stub doing the most basic init functionality and IPC, then putting all the fancy stuff into other processes. not sure if systemd is doing this, tho…✎
phrykand as for the pid 1 thing, that can be done in tiny with fancy features if it's just a stub doing the most basic init functionality and IPC, then putting all the fancy stuff into other processes. not sure if systemd is doing this, tho… ✏
qyDepends how liberally you define "tiny"... :p
moparisthebestphryk: I think your description for a replacement for Cron just described systemd timers
moparisthebestI still like Cron... :)
phrykmoparisthebest, nothing to do with timers. i mean stuff like "plugged in ethernet cable", "closed lid", "triggered case-open sensor"
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moparisthebestphryk: oh well it does that too, using udev I think
phryknot really surprised. like i said, a lot of the features sound really neat.
phryknot sure about the engineering of it, but when my work laptop finally arrives I'll be looking into it. :P
phryktho i think init and cron should be different processes, even if they communicate.
phrykanother thing i'd like is to be able to hook init up to prometheus. no guessing if a service is actually up through proxy values like if it currently reports values…
phrykanyhow, going afk :)
qyI would shill s6 here, but i think that'd just be a pain 😶
qyAnyway, with LMC https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html is "last message" by client or user?
qyI notice clients seem to implement it as by-client, but i see no mention of that on the xep
qy...maybe for jdev
moparisthebestqy: many clients only let you edit the last one the client sent but accept them for whatever