XSF Discussion - 2022-03-25

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01:07:03 moparisthebest Where are the rules regarding membership? I thought it was in xep-0001 but doesn't appear to be
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08:40:55 MattJ moparisthebest, https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws/
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12:27:30 Zash moparisthebest, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html may be of relevance as well
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13:22:36 goffi https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/24/22995431/european-union-digital-markets-act-imessage-whatsapp-interoperable
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13:31:30 moparisthebest goffi: if only there was some standard they could use for that eh?
13:32:07 moparisthebest Sounds like it'll be more like "each operator request API keys and implement this custom WhatsApp thing"
13:32:16 moparisthebest Thanks MattJ Zash
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14:48:14 larma moparisthebest, it would still allow to have proper bridges. Better than what we have right now.
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15:19:21 mjk > [EU] can fine a company up to 10 percent of its global annual revenue.
15:19:29 mjk now that's badass
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16:06:26 MattJ People, seriously
16:06:44 jonas’ what did I miss?
16:07:16 MattJ Today XMPP is a failure because XEP-0352 (CSI) "is stable, but not finalized"
16:07:24 jonas’ are you kidding
16:07:27 MattJ I'm not
16:07:37 MattJ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30802195
16:07:41 jonas’ s/Final/Frozen/? ;)
16:07:51 MattJ s/Final/Dead and buried/
16:07:52 jonas’ though then people will complain about '30 being frozen
16:08:58 Menel Rename it again.. Stable will now be named final. And later you make versions regardless.
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16:31:47 moparisthebest Stable -> Final, Final -> ReallyFinal
16:32:04 moparisthebest eh, can't fix stupid :)
16:32:20 Zash Don't let them make us waste more effort on renames
16:32:55 moparisthebest larma, you think so? or will it be like microsoft "open document format" docx that they made so complicated no one could implement it correctly on purpose, not even them ?
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16:49:21 mjk no Frozen plz (and no Deprecated -> Frozen 2 either)
16:49:42 Link Mauve Let it go~
16:49:54 moparisthebest Stahp
16:50:00 mjk nnnnnooooooo
16:52:17 mjk is it the open part of docx that's really terrible, or their _extensions_? ;)
16:52:50 mjk in this sense, they better not make the APIs xmpp-based :D
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16:53:50 moparisthebest iirc the base docx spec is thousands of pages
16:54:18 mjk th-the _base_, huh. okay
16:54:44 moparisthebest The rumor is they did this on purpose so they could claim it was "open" while guaranteeing no one could implement it
16:55:16 moparisthebest That was back when companies were afraid of anti-trust enforcement, remember those days?
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16:58:05 mjk Ah, the olden days of turning vml into svg
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17:03:08 larma moparisthebest, well, document formats in the likes of docx are inherently complicated. I remember the days when a file was displayed differently depending on the printer configured on the system, because printers report printable areas and the software wants to adjust to it. I don't think it's feasible to make instant messaging such complicated without looking like doing so intentionally, which would probably be causing issues with EU regulators.
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17:09:03 mjk Unless they woo the regulators with e2e crypto, which is easilly believable to be "inherently complicated"
17:09:47 MattJ So we should ban E2EE, for interoperability
17:09:54 MattJ Got it
17:09:55 mjk Akthough, EU could just say "don't bother with e2ee"
17:09:59 mjk Lol
17:10:09 moparisthebest Sounds right
17:10:34 moparisthebest Also send a copy of every message to the govt so they can verify interoperability is correct
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18:59:14 jcbrand For a short while back in 2013 I had OTR encrypted chats with Facebook contacts via Converse
18:59:36 jcbrand Could probably be done again if they were forced to interoperate
19:00:14 moparisthebest POLICY VIOLATION: CANNOT IMPLEMENT GOVT MANDATED CSAM SCANNING PLEASE DISABLE ENCRYPTION
19:00:36 jcbrand ~~> For a short while back in 2013 I had OTR encrypted chats with Facebook contacts via Converse Facebook account to Facebook account... The never federated like Google~~ ✎
19:00:44 jcbrand > For a short while back in 2013 I had OTR encrypted chats with Facebook contacts via Converse Facebook account to Facebook account... They never federated like Google ✏
19:01:32 jcbrand moparisthebest: you joke, there are powerful forces in the EU and other countries (UK) that wasn't to circumvent EE2E
19:01:37 Link Mauve For an extremely short while, I could connect to MSN as well.
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19:02:05 Link Mauve I don’t remember if they had s2s or not, probably not.
19:02:12 jcbrand ~~UK recently paid a public relations firm to launch an anti-encryption campaign~~ ✎
19:02:38 jcbrand UK gov recently paid a public relations firm to launch an anti-encryption campaign ✏
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19:03:17 jcbrand Yeah MSN also had XMPP support
19:03:50 jcbrand We were so close
19:03:52 moparisthebest yep https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/01/uk-paid-724000-creepy-campaign-convince-people-encryption-bad-it-wont-work
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19:13:58 jcbrand Matrix (Matthew) already has an article out about the proposed EU legislation. The CEO of XMPP really needs to step up his game and get the public relations team to write an article about how this is good for XMPP
19:14:32 Zash Yeah, Matthew, come on! Chop chop! Write something! /s
19:14:53 jcbrand Yes, our Matthew needs to defeat their Matthew
19:15:20 Zash It's going to be Wild!
19:15:49 jcbrand 👯👯‍♀️👯‍♂️
19:16:02 jcbrand Those are supposed to be cheerleaders
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19:28:35 moparisthebest nice one Zash
19:29:10 jcbrand I like my puns intended
19:34:18 jcbrand Seems like every few months I get an email and questionnaire from a university student doing "research" on funding (or somesuch) of FOSS. Personally I'm curious about the XMPP community. How many people use XMPP as part of their job (i.e. as a way to get paid), if so, what do they do with it etc. Anyone else interested as well?
19:34:50 jcbrand ~~Other questions could you what motivates people to volunteer time.~~ ✎
19:35:01 jcbrand Another question could you what motivates people to volunteer time. ✏
19:35:08 jcbrand Another question could be what motivates people to volunteer time. ✏
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19:36:28 jcbrand Maybe ties in a little with an idea that emus had, to get people to celebrate XMPP by saying why they like it
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20:43:04 Matthew fwiw i wrote https://matrix.org/blog/2022/03/25/interoperability-without-sacrificing-privacy-matrix-and-the-dma myself
20:43:50 Matthew and if i were working on xmpp i'd have thought it'd be a way better use of time to write an equivalent one for XMPP
20:44:05 Matthew rather than sitting whining on HN about how Matrix isn't an IETF standard, or whatever.
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20:46:26 Matthew (that said, if anyone does know a PR team who are able to write intelligent things about why interoperability is good, i'd love to meet them ;P)
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20:55:38 MattJ Matthew, FWIW I'm aware of the people you mean on HN who are always going on about that at every opportunity, but I don't recognise them as anyone here (or XSF members)
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20:57:26 MattJ But yes, we do generally need to write more... our "PR team" are all volunteers who write what they can when they can, so it's sporadic
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20:58:01 Matthew i may be misremembering nicks (or conflating ^za..$ nicks together) - apologies if so
20:59:17 Matthew and yeah. i guess i don’t feel me writing blog posts or sitting on HN is my dayjob either and i’m doing it as an enthusiastic volunteer for matrix
20:59:24 Matthew and it definitely takes time :|
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21:02:42 L29Ah so, can we just take the text and s/Matrix/XMPP/?
21:03:08 Matthew knock yourself out :)
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22:01:05 emus Well, technically we are in contact with DE government people
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22:21:38 jcbrand Matthew: hi, I didn't know you hanged out here. I didn't want to imply that you didn't write it yourself, I was just trying to be funny (and maybe failed). I find it a bit strange that you call yourself a volunteer though, don't you get paid to work on Matrix?
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22:29:51 Matthew matrix is an opensource project i started in my free time, and then persuaded my dayjob to let me work on it, and it spiralled from there.
22:30:23 Matthew so it's both my FOSS side-project and my dayjob, for better or worse
22:30:47 Matthew my rule of thumb is that anything i do on matrix.org i consider FOSS side-project, and anything i do on element.io is my dayjob.
22:30:52 Matthew shrugs
22:32:32 jcbrand > matrix is an opensource project i started in my free time, and then persuaded my dayjob to let me work on it, and it spiralled from there. It's a fantasy of many that you managed to achieve, so respect for that.
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22:33:05 Matthew :) not entirely sure that having your hobby become your dayjob is a good thing
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22:34:17 L29Ah a good hobby ought to have the potential of becoming a dayjob
22:34:41 jcbrand Everything has tradeoffs and downsides, but if you can work on something that you are philosophically aligned with and which interests you, I'm pretty sure it's better than most alternatives
22:38:25 jcbrand You probably get a lot of meaning out of it which is very important for life satisfaction. Coming back to my questionnaire idea, I suspect a lot of the volunteers here do it because of the meaningfulness it gives them.
22:40:14 Zash Also because it was more fun to work on XMPP stuff than arguing with people about moving to XMPP from whatever proprietary things.
22:40:39 jcbrand Yeah, I was just going to say it's also fun 🙂
22:45:00 jcbrand I'm just chipping away since 2013 and still making progress and having fun. Sometimes it was my dayjob and many other times it was something I could only do in evenings and in weekends.
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22:45:35 jcbrand I like watching the boulder roll downhill before I go down after it so that I can push it up again
22:47:20 Zash Note to swag committee: Boulder racing stripe stickers
22:49:36 L29Ah http://blogs.getty.edu/iris/files/2017/02/cncartoons_1300.jpg?x45884
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23:15:11 emus Ah wow, cool you are here actually Matthew
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23:19:28 Matthew in the absence of in-person fosdems, i've got to hang out somehow :P
23:19:40 Matthew plus bridging ftw
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23:34:17 emus 👍 ah speaking of brdiging: https://opencollective.com/bifrost-mam but havent followed whats going on
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23:39:14 TheCoffeMaker If this works for u I been working on Argentinean public sector for several years on interoperability matters including trying to get XMPP as the standard for systems interoperability (its being use in aome areas but they do not actuall
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23:39:48 TheCoffeMaker Sorry ... My daughter touched the screen ... Letme try again
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23:41:19 L29Ah i have a matrix as a standard for interoperability idea: a matrix of buttons for text input into computer systems
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23:41:20 qy > emus wrote: > 👍 > ah speaking of brdiging: https://opencollective.com/bifrost-mam > but havent followed whats going on I feel like there are higher priorities w.r.t QoL on the bifröst
23:45:57 TheCoffeMaker If this works for u I been working on Argentinean public sector for several years on interoperability matters including trying to get XMPP as the standard for systems interoperability (its being use in aome areas but they do not actually use is for im, but for other kind of near realtime systems communication) ... The problem, this is mainly why I left is the lobbies ... From local companies and global corporations (the same that all we know) ... Most of interoperability is abt data sharing not IM ... But then big public sector areas (like ministries) have their management trying to do business with their firnds and then u get the whole ecosystem broken
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23:47:21 TheCoffeMaker I wrote some highlevel documents abt interoperability ... And XMPP were always the protocol taken as example
23:47:46 TheCoffeMaker I can check my backups
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23:50:29 TheCoffeMaker I been using XMPP as example because it meets all the features required for interoperability and the most important is being an open standard ... Also been working on geoinformation interoperability with OSGI members ... This side of interoperability is where we had more success
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23:53:02 TheCoffeMaker The other problem ... Besides lobbies was the lack of trained developers ... Only in scientific areas we found developers and scientists that understood the value of XMPP as interoperable protocol
23:53:25 TheCoffeMaker But thats a global market issue I guess
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