XSF Discussion - 2022-04-07

  1. adiaholic has left

  2. wgreenhouse has left

  3. Maranda[x] has left

  4. Maranda[x] has joined

  5. daags has joined

  6. daags has left

  7. daags has joined

  8. wgreenhouse has joined

  9. harry837374884 has left

  10. harry837374884 has joined

  11. wgreenhouse has left

  12. millesimus has left

  13. qwestion has joined

  14. emus has left

  15. Menel has joined

  16. restive_monk has joined

  17. Half-Shot has left

  18. homebeach has left

  19. Matthew has left

  20. uhoreg has left

  21. Half-Shot has joined

  22. Matthew has joined

  23. homebeach has joined

  24. uhoreg has joined

  25. millesimus has joined

  26. wgreenhouse has joined

  27. qwestion has left

  28. qwestion has joined

  29. Calvin has joined

  30. arcxi has left

  31. Menel has left

  32. marc0s has left

  33. marc0s has joined

  34. Calvin has left

  35. neshtaxmpp has left

  36. neshtaxmpp has joined

  37. adiaholic has joined

  38. kinetik has left

  39. kinetik has joined

  40. Steve Kille has left

  41. Kev has left

  42. Steve Kille has joined

  43. Kev has joined

  44. qy has left

  45. qy has joined

  46. neshtaxmpp has left

  47. kinetik has left

  48. neshtaxmpp has joined

  49. jcbrand has left

  50. kinetik has joined

  51. adiaholic has left

  52. adiaholic has joined

  53. neshtaxmpp has left

  54. qwestion has left

  55. adiaholic has left

  56. neshtaxmpp has joined

  57. neshtaxmpp has left

  58. neshtaxmpp has joined

  59. adiaholic has joined

  60. adiaholic has left

  61. andrey.g has left

  62. adiaholic has joined

  63. restive_monk has left

  64. adiaholic has left

  65. adiaholic has joined

  66. restive_monk has joined

  67. marc0s has left

  68. marc0s has joined

  69. neshtaxmpp has left

  70. jgart has left

  71. neshtaxmpp has joined

  72. adiaholic has left

  73. adiaholic has joined

  74. Yagiza has joined

  75. yushyin has left

  76. xnamed has left

  77. Apollo has joined

  78. yushyin has joined

  79. Paganini has left

  80. kinetik has left

  81. wladmis has joined

  82. restive_monk has left

  83. restive_monk has joined

  84. moparisthebest has joined

  85. harry837374884 has left

  86. harry837374884 has joined

  87. restive_monk has left

  88. marc0s has left

  89. marc0s has joined

  90. floretta has left

  91. restive_monk has joined

  92. floretta has joined

  93. adiaholic has left

  94. Menel has joined

  95. restive_monk has left

  96. restive_monk has joined

  97. wladmis has left

  98. wladmis has joined

  99. adiaholic has joined

  100. Tobias has joined

  101. Tobias has left

  102. Tobias has joined

  103. adiaholic has left

  104. adiaholic has joined

  105. restive_monk has left

  106. adiaholic has left

  107. wladmis has left

  108. wladmis has joined

  109. yushyin has left

  110. moparisthebest has left

  111. restive_monk has joined

  112. վարյա has left

  113. վարյա has joined

  114. adiaholic has joined

  115. վարյա has left

  116. վարյա has joined

  117. Sam has left

  118. Sam has joined

  119. yushyin has joined

  120. վարյա has left

  121. վարյա has joined

  122. wladmis has left

  123. COM8 has joined

  124. COM8 has left

  125. wladmis has joined

  126. emus has joined

  127. wladmis has left

  128. wladmis has joined

  129. ti_gj06 has joined

  130. konstantinos has joined

  131. wurstsalat has joined

  132. harry837374884 has left

  133. floretta has left

  134. millesimus has left

  135. Daniel has left

  136. msavoritias has joined

  137. Daniel has joined

  138. floretta has joined

  139. jcbrand has joined

  140. tykayn has joined

  141. վարյա has left

  142. pasdesushi has joined

  143. restive_monk has left

  144. BASSGOD has left

  145. debacle has joined

  146. restive_monk has joined

  147. marc has joined

  148. BASSGOD has joined

  149. adiaholic has left

  150. վարյա has joined

  151. adiaholic has joined

  152. adiaholic has left

  153. djorz has joined

  154. Sam has left

  155. վարյա has left

  156. վարյա has joined

  157. Sam has joined

  158. yushyin has left

  159. pasdesushi has left

  160. arcxi has joined

  161. adiaholic has joined

  162. millesimus has joined

  163. daags has left

  164. Half-Shot has left

  165. homebeach has left

  166. Matthew has left

  167. uhoreg has left

  168. Half-Shot has joined

  169. Matthew has joined

  170. homebeach has joined

  171. uhoreg has joined

  172. millesimus has left

  173. djorz has left

  174. pasdesushi has joined

  175. lovetox has left

  176. yushyin has joined

  177. goffi has joined

  178. adiaholic has left

  179. Apollo has left

  180. daags has joined

  181. yushyin has left

  182. Sam has left

  183. Maranda[x] has left

  184. Maranda[x] has joined

  185. emus has left

  186. Andrzej has joined

  187. Sam has joined

  188. Andrzej has left

  189. Andrzej has joined

  190. Daniel has left

  191. adiaholic has joined

  192. Daniel has joined

  193. Sam has left

  194. Sam has joined

  195. Fishbowler has left

  196. Fishbowler has joined

  197. marc has left

  198. harry837374884 has joined

  199. debacle has left

  200. Sam has left

  201. adiaholic has left

  202. marc has joined

  203. Fishbowler has left

  204. Fishbowler has joined

  205. emus has joined

  206. millesimus has joined

  207. V_tor has left

  208. gooya has joined

  209. adiaholic has joined

  210. floretta has left

  211. Daniel

    goffi: as a module to an existing server?

  212. Daniel

    any source code I could look at?

  213. konstantinos has left

  214. yushyin has joined

  215. restive_monk has left

  216. wladmis has left

  217. wladmis has joined

  218. Sam has joined

  219. Andrzej has left

  220. Andrzej has joined

  221. restive_monk has joined

  222. վարյա has left

  223. վարյա has joined

  224. marc has left

  225. Sam has left

  226. BASSGOD has left

  227. Sam has joined

  228. goffi

    > goffi: as a module to an existing server? As a component with my pubsub component. No code published yet, I'm updating XEP-0356 implementation in it and Prosody first.

  229. yushyin has left

  230. Sam has left

  231. adiaholic has left

  232. adiaholic has joined

  233. wladmis has left

  234. BASSGOD has joined

  235. Sam has joined

  236. mjk has joined

  237. Steve Kille has left

  238. gooya has left

  239. gooya has joined

  240. stp has joined

  241. Sam has left

  242. floretta has joined

  243. restive_monk has left

  244. վարյա has left

  245. վարյա has joined

  246. konstantinos has joined

  247. lovetox has joined

  248. adiaholic has left

  249. BASSGOD has left

  250. yushyin has joined

  251. adiaholic has joined

  252. millesimus has left

  253. restive_monk has joined

  254. millesimus has joined

  255. neshtaxmpp has left

  256. marc has joined

  257. վարյա has left

  258. Andrzej has left

  259. վարյա has joined

  260. floretta has left

  261. BASSGOD has joined

  262. floretta has joined

  263. pasdesushi has left

  264. pasdesushi has joined

  265. marc0s has left

  266. marc0s has joined

  267. Half-Shot has left

  268. homebeach has left

  269. Matthew has left

  270. uhoreg has left

  271. Half-Shot has joined

  272. Matthew has joined

  273. homebeach has joined

  274. uhoreg has joined

  275. ti_gj06 has left

  276. Paganini has joined

  277. վարյա has left

  278. վարյա has joined

  279. pasdesushi has left

  280. lskdjf has joined

  281. Sam has joined

  282. yushyin has left

  283. pasdesushi has joined

  284. restive_monk has left

  285. restive_monk has joined

  286. Sam has left

  287. Steve Kille has joined

  288. Sam has joined

  289. Sam has left

  290. gooya has left

  291. pasdesushi has left

  292. gooya has joined

  293. lovetox has left

  294. Menel has left

  295. yushyin has joined

  296. stp has left

  297. qy has left

  298. Sam has joined

  299. stp has joined

  300. lovetox has joined

  301. Sam has left

  302. Sam has joined

  303. adiaholic has left

  304. adiaholic has joined

  305. Sam has left

  306. adiaholic has left

  307. adiaholic has joined

  308. mjk has left

  309. Neustradamus has left

  310. ti_gj06 has joined

  311. mjk has joined

  312. Menel has joined

  313. Sam has joined

  314. adiaholic has left

  315. adiaholic has joined

  316. Sam has left

  317. Wojtek has left

  318. Sam has joined

  319. Andrzej has joined

  320. adiaholic has left

  321. adiaholic has joined

  322. mjk has left

  323. debacle has joined

  324. mjk has joined

  325. qy has joined

  326. ti_gj06 has left

  327. ti_gj06 has joined

  328. ti_gj06 has left

  329. ti_gj06 has joined

  330. վարյա has left

  331. վարյա has joined

  332. Sam has left

  333. ti_gj06 has left

  334. Sam has joined

  335. ti_gj06 has joined

  336. atomicwatch has left

  337. Half-Shot has left

  338. homebeach has left

  339. Matthew has left

  340. uhoreg has left

  341. Half-Shot has joined

  342. Matthew has joined

  343. homebeach has joined

  344. uhoreg has joined

  345. mh has left

  346. mh has joined

  347. Sam has left

  348. xnamed has joined

  349. pasdesushi has joined

  350. Sam has joined

  351. عبود has joined

  352. ti_gj06 has left

  353. ti_gj06 has joined

  354. Maranda[x] has left

  355. Maranda[x] has joined

  356. Sam has left

  357. adiaholic has left

  358. gooya has left

  359. gooya has joined

  360. adiaholic has joined

  361. Sam has joined

  362. harry837374884 has left

  363. pasdesushi has left

  364. antranigv has joined

  365. bean has joined

  366. pasdesushi has joined

  367. adiaholic has left

  368. yushyin has left

  369. adiaholic has joined

  370. emus has left

  371. emus has joined

  372. atomicwatch has joined

  373. adiaholic has left

  374. Guus

    does the specs allow for (non-namespaced) attributes to be added to message/iq/presence stanza elements?

  375. Andrzej has left

  376. konstantinos has left

  377. Guus

    `<message foo='bar' ... `

  378. Zash

    Yes officer, this message right here ↑

  379. adiaholic has joined

  380. Zash

    Guus, have fun with the protocol police 😉

  381. Link Mauve

    Woop woop~

  382. yushyin has joined

  383. gooya has left

  384. Half-Shot has left

  385. homebeach has left

  386. Matthew has left

  387. uhoreg has left

  388. Half-Shot has joined

  389. Matthew has joined

  390. homebeach has joined

  391. uhoreg has joined

  392. jonas’

    Guus, most certainly not

  393. gooya has joined

  394. restive_monk has left

  395. pasdesushi has left

  396. mjk

    Meanwhile, in Matrix: -- This is not the protocol violation you're looking for *waves hand, making the protocol support it* -- Woah...

  397. jonas’

    use namespaced attributes, they're there for that use case

  398. Zash

    or stuff it in a namespaced element

  399. jonas’

    or that, but you can't do that for IQs

  400. Kev

    Please don't shove new stuff in a stanza header, I would expect most of the world to break in that case.

  401. Zash

    I expect half the world to pass it along to the other half, where it'll break.

  402. jonas’

    one half being prosody, the other half being ejabberd?

  403. lovetox has left

  404. Guus

    I'm asking because I was amazed that I'm looking at client traffic that does it, without it breaking in dramatic ways.

  405. Guus

    are _namespaced_ attributes on those elements even ok?

  406. Kev

    Not really.

  407. Zash

    Slightly less not okay at least.

  408. Kev

    We're bad at documenting our extension points, though.

  409. Zash

    It's XML! Everywhere's an extension point if you namespace it!!

  410. Guus

    You'd need to somehow add the namespace to the ... stream element? Feels pretty messy.

  411. restive_monk has joined

  412. lovetox has joined

  413. Guus

    So, yeah, shove it in a child element somewhere.

  414. Guus

    to make you share in my misery, I'm looking at an attribute on a message stanza that starts with this:

  415. Zash

    no no noooooooo

  416. Guus

    `sensorList="{&quot;data&quot;:[{&quot;type&quot;:&quot;sensorOne&quot;,` followed by slightly over 2000 characters

  417. Guus

    and that's just one of those attributes. :D

  418. Kev

    JSON inside a default-namespaced attribute on a message stanza. I don't see what could possibly go wrong.

  419. Guus walks out of the bar, whistling.

  420. Zash fills eyes with kerosene

  421. Kev

    Really, what's the odd Eldrich Horror between friends?

  422. Maranda huhus.

  423. Kev

    Really, what's the odd Eldritch Horror between friends?

  424. Guus

    but as I said: this doesn't break, apparently.

  425. Kev

    I think you've just not found the myriad places it breaks, yet :)

  426. jonas’

    Guus, no you don't, you can <message xmlns:foo='bar' foo:fnord='xyz'/>

  427. jonas’

    Guus, no you don't have to declare it on the stream header, you can <message xmlns:foo='bar' foo:fnord='xyz'/>

  428. Apollo has joined

  429. Guus

    jonas’ ah yes. Still not a good idea probably.

  430. Guus

    Kev: let me put it this way: it's running in production, but they're now reaching out because of some issues.

  431. lovetox has left

  432. Kev

    Oh, I'm happy to believe that given some controlled subset of software it might work. Just that I would expect it to break in the general case.

  433. Zash

    Guus, show them https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0432.html

  434. Guus

    (also: hardcoded stanza IDs)

  435. Guus

    Zash: but it has a big red warning on top of it! must be worse than rolling our own!

  436. lovetox has joined

  437. wladmis has joined

  438. Guus

    (should we make those warnings slightly less off-putting by renaming them to 'beware' and print them in a color that's not firetruck-orange?)

  439. Zash

    Guus: Or push for advancement?

  440. Half-Shot has left

  441. homebeach has left

  442. Matthew has left

  443. uhoreg has left

  444. Half-Shot has joined

  445. Matthew has joined

  446. homebeach has joined

  447. uhoreg has joined

  448. jonas’

    this sounds like a low-hanging push-for-advancement fruit indeed

  449. Guus

    Zash we can do that for individual XEPs - I was trying to go for a more generic approach.

  450. Ingolf has left

  451. Zash

    I think I even added that to mod_rest

  452. adiaholic has left

  453. lovetox has left

  454. Ingolf has joined

  455. վարյա has left

  456. վարյա has joined

  457. Half-Shot has left

  458. homebeach has left

  459. Matthew has left

  460. uhoreg has left

  461. Half-Shot has joined

  462. Matthew has joined

  463. homebeach has joined

  464. uhoreg has joined

  465. عبود has left

  466. yushyin has left

  467. lovetox has joined

  468. pasdesushi has joined

  469. xnamed has left

  470. antranigv has left

  471. antranigv has joined

  472. floretta has left

  473. floretta has joined

  474. yushyin has joined

  475. adiaholic has joined

  476. antranigv has left

  477. lovetox has left

  478. adiaholic has left

  479. adiaholic has joined

  480. yushyin has left

  481. antranigv has joined

  482. harry837374884 has joined

  483. Guus

    RFC6121 8.4 explicitly states that 'extension attributes' _are_ allowed, I think. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6120#section-8.4

  484. moparisthebest has joined

  485. Zash

    Is now the time to remember how the `@c` attribute in `<a xmlns="b" c="d"/>` isn't in the "b" namespace?

  486. Guus

    XML prefixes

  487. Guus

    as jonas showed earlier.

  488. Zash

    Like `xmlns:extension="blah" extension:attr="moo"`, yeah that's fine.

  489. arcxi has left

  490. Guus

    `xmlns:prefix="uri" prefix:c="yey"`

  491. Guus

    yeah, exactly.

  492. antranigv has left

  493. Kev

    Guus: Yes, it does. I predict it would still break things.

  494. MattJ

    It will break broken things

  495. adiaholic has left

  496. adiaholic has joined

  497. Kev

    Sure. Whereas doing it inside jabber:client will break unbroken things.

  498. jonas’

    nobody proposed doing it in jabber:client

  499. jonas’

    which I'm sure will cause fun effects :D

  500. Kev

    That's exactly what the sample Guus pasted was doing.

  501. jonas’


  502. Wojtek has joined

  503. sbach has left

  504. sbach has joined

  505. Kev

    Nobody was proposing it was a good idea, naturally.

  506. jonas’

    in <message xmlns="jabber:client" foo="bar"/>, @foo is *not* in the jabber:client namespace.

  507. Kev

    Ok, default namespace, yes.

  508. jonas’


  509. jonas’

    without namespace.

  510. Zash

    Let's just pretend it's in jabber:client plz

  511. jonas’

    <message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar"/> is in jabber:client then.

  512. jonas’

    and it is semantically different from the former

  513. Zash

    That's what all code I have ever known does

  514. jonas’

    so please let's not pretend that

  515. Kev

    I know what I mean, even if I'm not using the right terms for it.

  516. Link Mauve

    Dino’s internal representation does the wrong thing here. :<

  517. Zash

    This is a silly part of XML

  518. Kev

    I do know that attributes without a namespace live outside, although I always miscall 'no namespace' 'the default namespace'.

  519. wgreenhouse has left

  520. wgreenhouse has joined

  521. moparisthebest

    > in <message xmlns="jabber:client" foo="bar"/>, @foo is *not* in the jabber:client namespace. so every websocket implementation ever is broken ?

  522. Kev

    No, I don't believe so.

  523. jonas’

    moparisthebest, why?

  524. jonas’

    moparisthebest, the attributes on stanzas in XMPP are supposed to be in no namespace

  525. Kev

    The attributes in XMPP are in the null-namespace, whatever the right term is.

  526. moparisthebest

    oh, ok then

  527. Zash

    But they ... belong with the whatever namespace xmlns specifies, somehow

  528. moparisthebest

    this hurts my brain and I do not like it

  529. adiaholic has left

  530. yushyin has joined

  531. Zash

    Yes. Let's pretend this obscure corner of XML doesn't exist!

  532. վարյա has left

  533. Kev

    Everyone pretends they live in the jabber:client/jabber:server namespaces because that's what XML would do if it wasn't insane.

  534. Kev

    But they're not.

  535. qy has left

  536. Zash

    We're really using XmppML anyways 😉

  537. Half-Shot has left

  538. homebeach has left

  539. Matthew has left

  540. uhoreg has left

  541. Half-Shot has joined

  542. Matthew has joined

  543. homebeach has joined

  544. uhoreg has joined

  545. qy has joined

  546. Kev

    Really all the attributes in XMPP should have been namespaced, but that would have been hideous.

  547. moparisthebest

    I'm all for going back to pretending it worked the way I always thought it worked

  548. MattJ votes for that plan

  549. jonas’

    moparisthebest, what do you do on `<message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar"/>` then?

  550. jonas’

    moparisthebest, what do you do on `<message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar" foo="baz"/>` then?

  551. moparisthebest

    honestly I have no idea

  552. moparisthebest

    reject whatever made it as bad software? :)

  553. jonas’


  554. Zash

    redirect whoever made the software to an insane asylum perhaps?

  555. moparisthebest

    up until 2 minutes ago I would have said that's a duplicate attribute, both under jabber:client

  556. վարյա has joined

  557. wgreenhouse has left

  558. wladmis has left

  559. yushyin has left

  560. antranigv has joined

  561. wladmis has joined

  562. restive_monk has left

  563. wgreenhouse has joined

  564. antranigv has left

  565. restive_monk has joined

  566. Kev

    Sometimes being wrong is the better option :)

  567. antranigv has joined

  568. yushyin has joined

  569. moparisthebest

    so to be clear, any attribute that doesn't have an explicit `namespace:` in front is *not* in a namespace at all ?

  570. Zash


  571. moparisthebest

    ever, regardless of higher level namespaces ?

  572. Zash

    so like `(null):attr=""`

  573. Zash

    I'm not about to read the XML specification.

  574. moparisthebest


  575. wgreenhouse has left

  576. վարյա has left

  577. kinetik has joined

  578. Wojtek has left

  579. Kev

    I believe that to be correct, yes, although it's a while since I checked in the spec and I might misremember.

  580. Kev

    It's a bit like Dialback. You understand it, you go to sleep, and you instantly forget how bad it really is, to protect yourself.

  581. xnamed has joined

  582. floretta has left

  583. floretta has joined

  584. wgreenhouse has joined

  585. վարյա has joined

  586. antranigv has left

  587. վարյա has left

  588. վարյա has joined

  589. վարյա has left

  590. վարյա has joined

  591. antranigv has joined

  592. wgreenhouse has left

  593. wgreenhouse has joined

  594. brunrobe has left

  595. Maranda has left

  596. Mjolnir Archon has left

  597. Mjolnir Archon has joined

  598. Maranda has joined

  599. brunrobe has joined

  600. վարյա has left

  601. վարյա has joined

  602. arcxi has joined

  603. flow

    maybe there is a good reason why non-qualified attribute names are in a namespace without value?

  604. վարյա has left

  605. վարյա has joined

  606. flow

    what's again the difference between xep432 and xep335?

  607. ti_gj06 has left

  608. flow

    ahh ep432 builds upon xep335

  609. վարյա has left

  610. վարյա has joined

  611. COM8 has joined

  612. COM8 has left

  613. pasdesushi has left

  614. վարյա has left

  615. վարյա has joined

  616. pasdesushi has joined

  617. adiaholic has joined

  618. Yagiza has left

  619. Yagiza has joined

  620. konstantinos has joined

  621. վարյա has left

  622. վարյա has joined

  623. վարյա has left

  624. վարյա has joined

  625. վարյա has left

  626. վարյա has joined

  627. BASSGOD has left

  628. emus has left

  629. adiaholic has left

  630. restive_monk has left

  631. վարյա has left

  632. վարյա has joined

  633. վարյա has left

  634. վարյա has joined

  635. վարյա has left

  636. վարյա has joined

  637. pasdesushi has left

  638. restive_monk has joined

  639. adiaholic has joined

  640. Wojtek has joined

  641. վարյա has left

  642. Apollo has left

  643. վարյա has joined

  644. emus has joined

  645. pasdesushi has joined

  646. ti_gj06 has joined

  647. restive_monk has left

  648. restive_monk has joined

  649. emus has left

  650. debacle has left

  651. harry837374884 has left

  652. tykayn has left

  653. BASSGOD has joined

  654. atomicwatch has left

  655. BASSGOD has left

  656. restive_monk has left

  657. wladmis has left

  658. antranigv has left

  659. wladmis has joined

  660. wladmis has left

  661. wladmis has joined

  662. Andrzej has joined

  663. Daniel has left

  664. emus has joined

  665. Andrzej has left

  666. Andrzej has joined

  667. Daniel has joined

  668. Andrzej has left

  669. Andrzej has joined

  670. pasdesushi has left

  671. pasdesushi has joined

  672. restive_monk has joined

  673. jonas’

    moparisthebest, https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#defaulting

  674. jonas’

    > Default namespace declarations do not apply directly to attribute names; the interpretation of unprefixed attributes is determined by the element on which they appear.

  675. jonas’

    > The namespace name for an unprefixed attribute name always has no value.

  676. jonas’

    (namespace name == namespace URI in more common lingo)

  677. jonas’

    The second example in https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#uniqAttrs here is the "adversarial" example we talked about earlier, with xmlns="x" xmlns:prefix="x" and attributes with and without prefix on the same element being legal

  678. jonas’

    The second example in https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#uniqAttrs is the "adversarial" example we talked about earlier, with xmlns="x" xmlns:prefix="x" and attributes with and without prefix on the same element being legal

  679. antranigv has joined

  680. antranigv has left

  681. Apollo has joined

  682. adiaholic has left

  683. millesimus has left

  684. millesimus has joined

  685. debacle has joined

  686. adiaholic has joined

  687. Steve Kille has left

  688. lovetox has joined

  689. nicola has joined

  690. Half-Shot has left

  691. homebeach has left

  692. Matthew has left

  693. uhoreg has left

  694. Half-Shot has joined

  695. Matthew has joined

  696. homebeach has joined

  697. uhoreg has joined

  698. Steve Kille has joined

  699. Steve Kille has left

  700. Steve Kille has joined

  701. harry837374884 has joined

  702. kinetik has left

  703. kinetik has joined

  704. nicola has left

  705. atomicwatch has joined

  706. wurstsalat

    hi! I would like to attribute autor(s) of the XMPP logo: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:XMPP_logo.svg Who should I attribute this to? "XMPP Standards Foundation", "Raja SANDHU" (as the original author), all of the authors who modified the logo, or all of the above?

  707. adiaholic has left

  708. ralphm

    wurstsalat: I think Raja Sandhu first, and XSF second. I don't think that the cosmetic fix was actually "authored", but instead working around an SVG rendering artifact.

  709. yushyin has left

  710. adiaholic has joined

  711. moparisthebest

    > Default namespace declarations do not apply directly to attribute names; the interpretation of unprefixed attributes is determined by the element on which they appear. wait, what? later it says: > the default namespace does not apply to attribute names the first seems to say that default namespace declarations apply to attribute names *sometimes* ?

  712. wurstsalat

    ralphm, thank you!

  713. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, no, it means that it applies to the element, which incidentally defines which attributes are accepted and how to interpret them.

  714. jonas’

    unnamespaced attributes inherently belong to the element, and how to interpret them is at the elements discretion

  715. moparisthebest

    Link Mauve, still not understanding, if an attribute doesn't have a prefix, does it ever have a namespace ?

  716. jonas’

    moparisthebest, no.

  717. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, never.

  718. jonas’

    otherwise, the second example from that uniqAttrs anchor would not universally be valid

  719. Link Mauve

    In <a xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' href='/'/> and in <a xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' href='/'/>, both @href are in the null namespace but both are defined by their parent element(’s namespace).

  720. Link Mauve

    (The latter is an addition in SVG2, it would usually be in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink namespace.)

  721. adiaholic has left

  722. moparisthebest

    so a namespace for an element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it ?

  723. moparisthebest


  724. Link Mauve

    Of course, since it defines the element.

  725. Half-Shot has left

  726. homebeach has left

  727. Matthew has left

  728. uhoreg has left

  729. jonas’

    no, the element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it

  730. Half-Shot has joined

  731. Matthew has joined

  732. homebeach has joined

  733. uhoreg has joined

  734. jonas’

    indirectly, the element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it

  735. moparisthebest

    I think I understand this now, thanks

  736. moparisthebest

    I don't understand in what universe this makes sense though, so if anyone wants to help with that...

  737. adiaholic has joined

  738. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, it allows different namespaces to define their elements (and the allowed attributes on them) without fear of incompatibility with another unknown namespace defining the same elements and attributes but with a different meaning.

  739. jonas’

    Link Mauve, but that would still work if attributes worked the same way as elements

  740. jonas’

    however, it allows namespaces to define attributes which have a meaning independently from the element they appear on

  741. Link Mauve


  742. yushyin has joined

  743. jonas’

    if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically (in the way xlink:href or xml:lang is used generically)

  744. jonas’

    though I think that this particular trade-off is not worth the headaches it causes

  745. jonas’

    as namespace URIs are cheap

  746. kinetik has left

  747. Link Mauve

    We have no way to go back in time and change XML 1.0 + Namespaces anyway.

  748. Link Mauve

    No known* way.

  749. moparisthebest

    unfortunately this feels like proof that time travel is impossible

  750. moparisthebest

    surely if it was, someone would have fixed this first

  751. Guus

    > if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically (in the way xlink:href or xml:lang is used generically) Ironically, I have never seen the latter without that prefix.

  752. Titi has left

  753. Link Mauve

    Guus, XML 1.0 + Namespaces forbids redefining the namespace of the xmlns or xml prefixes.

  754. kinetik has joined

  755. adiaholic has left

  756. adiaholic has joined

  757. djorz has joined

  758. lovetox has left

  759. Guus

    Link Mauve: but if I read the above correctly then any element can define the usage of that attribute without explicitly requiring the namespace prefix?

  760. Andrzej has left

  761. Andrzej has joined

  762. Andrzej has left

  763. Andrzej has joined

  764. Link Mauve

    Guus, “that attribute”, the @xml:lang?

  765. adiaholic has left

  766. Link Mauve

    It already has a prefix, which is xml, and is illegal to redefine or to define anything to the same namespace.

  767. antranigv has joined

  768. BASSGOD has joined

  769. Guus

    Link Mauve: I misinterpreted jonas’ earlier comment.

  770. BASSGOD has left

  771. adiaholic has joined

  772. inky has left

  773. rafasaurus has left

  774. rafasaurus has joined

  775. adiaholic has left

  776. flow

    > jonas’> if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically why shouldn't I be able to use the attribute with a prefix in an element not beloging to the namespace the attribute was defined in?

  777. ti_gj06 has left

  778. antranigv has left

  779. Link Mauve

    flow, conceptually, an attribute only refines its element.

  780. Link Mauve

    It wouldn’t make any sense to use e.g. the XHTML video/@loop on an XMPP message/body.

  781. ti_gj06 has joined

  782. Link Mauve

    It would make sense to include an XHTML video element in an XMPP message though.

  783. Link Mauve

    As it is a standalone element.

  784. BASSGOD has joined

  785. Link Mauve

    Note also that even in a single namespace, multiple different elements might define an identically-named attribute.

  786. Link Mauve

    Possibly with different semantics.

  787. pasdesushi has left

  788. lovetox has joined

  789. antranigv has joined

  790. adiaholic has joined

  791. kinetik has left

  792. pasdesushi has joined

  793. Daniel has left

  794. ti_gj06 has left

  795. ti_gj06 has joined

  796. jgart has joined

  797. harry837374884 has left

  798. atomicwatch has left

  799. restive_monk has left

  800. harry837374884 has joined

  801. Daniel has joined

  802. mjk

    I feel more enlightened and a little bit deader inside at the same time. Thanks everyone for the questions and the answers!

  803. Link Mauve


  804. adiaholic has left

  805. moparisthebest

    same mjk

  806. tykayn has joined

  807. Andrzej has left

  808. adiaholic has joined

  809. Andrzej has joined

  810. lovetox has left

  811. BASSGOD has left

  812. adiaholic has left

  813. BASSGOD has joined

  814. inky has joined

  815. Half-Shot has left

  816. homebeach has left

  817. Matthew has left

  818. uhoreg has left

  819. Half-Shot has joined

  820. Matthew has joined

  821. homebeach has joined

  822. uhoreg has joined

  823. moparisthebest

    After 2 years of intense research, Twitter proposes inventing XMPP: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/3-6-2022-a-self-authenticating-social-protocol

  824. gooya has left

  825. jgart has left

  826. gooya has joined

  827. atomicwatch has joined

  828. adiaholic has joined

  829. Andrzej has left

  830. TheCoffeMaker has left

  831. adiaholic has left

  832. TheCoffeMaker has joined

  833. lovetox has joined

  834. mjk

    at last! The fourth xmpp!

  835. mjk

    (counting activitypub towards that)

  836. moparisthebest

    > With email, if you change your provider then your email address has to change too. flat-out lying is fine guys, they are twitter

  837. Sam

    That seems like a reasonable thing to say given their audience, they obviously just mean "they will have addresses not tied to a domain so you don't have to use your own domain if you want to move your account"

  838. moparisthebest

    "their audience" the subset of people that will read an article about a protocol but not understand basic email concepts? :/

  839. Guus has left

  840. Sam

    It's a high level overview, not a deep dive into technical details. It seems like a reasonable thing to elide over.

  841. Guus has joined

  842. moparisthebest

    then don't mention it, rather than lie

  843. Sam

    It's not a lie, generally speaking what they're saying is true. They obviously just mean "it has a domain name in it", what they're suggesting is that you don't have to lug a domain name around, I think. eg. if you sign up on @twitter.com and get address "myname" then move to "example.com" your address will still just be "Myname" but a new server will be handling the data.

  844. mjk

    > We want users to have an easy path to switching servers, even without the server’s help. That's, like, rocket science! Right, Matt? ;)

  845. Zash

    And then just burn massive amounts of coal to power the blockchain to record what server every username is currently living on?

  846. Zash

    Easy! Why didn't we think of this????

  847. kinetik has joined

  848. papatutuwawa has joined

  849. Fishbowler has left

  850. mjk

    If only there was a global infrastructure for paying to reserve a name...

  851. Fishbowler has joined

  852. pasdesushi has left

  853. moparisthebest

    what if we invented some type of name service people could use to register names of their choosing?

  854. moparisthebest

    and like some type of hierarchical protocol to look them up? it would be revolutionary!

  855. Zash

    humans often organize themselves in hierarchies, perhaps something modeled after that?

  856. Andrzej has joined

  857. kinetik has left

  858. TheCoffeMaker has left

  859. mjk

    It could also have authentication of records built in from the start!

  860. mjk

    It could also have hierarchical authentication of records built in from the start!

  861. moparisthebest

    now that would be something...

  862. Titi has joined

  863. TheCoffeMaker has joined

  864. Andrzej has left

  865. Andrzej has joined

  866. pasdesushi has joined

  867. kinetik has joined

  868. lovetox has left

  869. Titi has left

  870. Andrzej has left

  871. Andrzej has joined

  872. Andrzej has left

  873. Andrzej has joined

  874. TheCoffeMaker has left

  875. adiaholic has joined

  876. TheCoffeMaker has joined

  877. Half-Shot has left

  878. homebeach has left

  879. Matthew has left

  880. uhoreg has left

  881. Half-Shot has joined

  882. Matthew has joined

  883. homebeach has joined

  884. uhoreg has joined

  885. Titi has joined

  886. Wojtek has left

  887. wladmis has left

  888. wladmis has joined

  889. marc0s has left

  890. marc0s has joined

  891. lovetox has joined

  892. Andrzej has left

  893. kinetik has left

  894. marc0s has left

  895. marc0s has joined

  896. karoshi has left

  897. inky has left

  898. inky has joined

  899. gooya has left

  900. gooya has joined

  901. antranigv has left

  902. inky has left

  903. inky has joined

  904. adiaholic has left

  905. adiaholic has joined

  906. TheCoffeMaker has left

  907. TheCoffeMaker has joined

  908. antranigv has joined

  909. Dele Olajide has joined

  910. Dele Olajide has left

  911. adiaholic has left

  912. antranigv has left

  913. floretta has left

  914. floretta has joined

  915. inky has left

  916. restive_monk has joined

  917. karoshi has joined

  918. inky has joined

  919. antranigv has joined

  920. Andrzej has joined

  921. Half-Shot has left

  922. homebeach has left

  923. Matthew has left

  924. uhoreg has left

  925. Half-Shot has joined

  926. Matthew has joined

  927. homebeach has joined

  928. uhoreg has joined

  929. mh has left

  930. restive_monk has left

  931. harry837374884 has left

  932. harry837374884 has joined

  933. restive_monk has joined

  934. Andrzej has left

  935. Andrzej has joined

  936. Sam has left

  937. marc has left

  938. sbach has left

  939. adiaholic has joined

  940. sbach has joined

  941. TheCoffeMaker has left

  942. Andrzej has left

  943. Andrzej has joined

  944. TheCoffeMaker has joined

  945. raucao has left

  946. mh has joined

  947. inky has left

  948. inky has joined

  949. eevvoor has left

  950. eevvoor has joined

  951. Andrzej has left

  952. Andrzej has joined

  953. Andrzej has left

  954. Andrzej has joined

  955. adiaholic has left

  956. Andrzej has left

  957. Andrzej has joined

  958. restive_monk has left

  959. Sam has joined

  960. marc has joined

  961. gooya has left

  962. gooya has joined

  963. adiaholic has joined

  964. Andrzej has left

  965. bean has left

  966. BASSGOD has left

  967. inky has left

  968. bean has joined

  969. BASSGOD has joined

  970. inky has joined

  971. V_tor has joined

  972. Apollo has left

  973. TheCoffeMaker has left

  974. TheCoffeMaker has joined

  975. inky has left

  976. adiaholic has left

  977. bean has left

  978. BASSGOD has left

  979. Half-Shot has left

  980. homebeach has left

  981. Matthew has left

  982. uhoreg has left

  983. Half-Shot has joined

  984. Matthew has joined

  985. homebeach has joined

  986. uhoreg has joined

  987. atomicwatch has left

  988. bean has joined

  989. BASSGOD has joined

  990. inky has joined

  991. atomicwatch has joined

  992. restive_monk has joined

  993. inky has left

  994. antranigv has left

  995. restive_monk has left

  996. bean has left

  997. BASSGOD has left

  998. MattJ

    Topic change: As I posted a while ago to the list, xmpp.net is a home to some a handful of "not officially XSF" projects, most notably the IM Observatory (and probably its successor)

  999. MattJ

    One of the projects has requested a MUC, which could live on muc.xmpp.org but might be confusing as a "not officially XSF" thing

  1000. bean has joined

  1001. MattJ

    So one alternative option is to add a vhost for muc.xmpp.net or similar to this server

  1002. MattJ

    From an iteam perspective I'm fine with that, and from a board perspective I'm fine with that. Does anyone have a perspective from this would not be fine? If not, I'll go ahead and set it up soon.

  1003. konstantinos has left

  1004. moparisthebest

    or just stop playing that game and call it an official XSF thing

  1005. moparisthebest

    not official, only ran 100% by the same people running the XSF

  1006. bean has left

  1007. BASSGOD has joined

  1008. bean has joined

  1009. emus

    moparisthebest: that will end up in lots of "discussion" I assume?

  1010. MattJ

    Making things official XSF things is not always a good thing for such projects, or the XSF

  1011. emus

    I tend to agree with Matt

  1012. MattJ

    This is my opinion, I know we have had discussions in the past where people disagreed with it

  1013. MattJ

    i.e. some people are of the opinion that the XSF should aim to be and do everything XMPP, while I prefer to keep it mostly just a vehicle for publishing standards

  1014. BASSGOD has left

  1015. moparisthebest

    just seems silly to me to continue "it's not official ;D" vs "ok XSF runs it"

  1016. BASSGOD has joined

  1017. inky has joined

  1018. Yagiza has left

  1019. MattJ

    Partly because it has proven time and time again to be pretty bad at doing anything else, but mostly okay at the standards thing :)

  1020. emus


  1021. inky has left

  1022. emus

    MattJ - nothing against the Newsletter - OKKK?!?!! 😉

  1023. inky has joined

  1024. mjk

    So it's a "trade mark" issue: "yea, we run it, but don't expect it to be as great as the main thing XSF is known for"? :)

  1025. MattJ

    emus, no, the newsletter has been a rare exception... but that's mostly thanks to your dedication :)

  1026. emus

    just kidding 🙂

  1027. stp has left

  1028. inky has left

  1029. Sam

    I was about to say the opposite: the XSF is really bad at the newsletter, it's an XSF project that got dumped on the shoulders (voluntarily, of course) of a single individual who gets almost no support from anyone else :) (I say counting myself as complicit in that)

  1030. inky has joined

  1031. Sam

    The newsletter itself is great, the XSF involvement not so much :)

  1032. inky has left

  1033. bean has left

  1034. BASSGOD has left

  1035. inky has joined

  1036. bean has joined

  1037. BASSGOD has joined

  1038. inky has left

  1039. inky has joined

  1040. emus

    Well, no its not on me of course, I always try to list and make transparent who supported and it alright like that

  1041. phoebos has joined

  1042. phoebos has left

  1043. emus

    Well, no its not on me of course, I always try to list and make transparent who supported and its alright like that

  1044. antranigv has joined

  1045. edhelas has left

  1046. edhelas has joined

  1047. harry837374884 has left

  1048. Alex has left

  1049. վարյա has left

  1050. վարյա has joined

  1051. վարյա has left

  1052. վարյա has joined

  1053. msavoritias has left

  1054. adiaholic has joined

  1055. gooya has left

  1056. gooya has joined

  1057. antranigv has left

  1058. flow

    thanks Link Mauve, but I think I new all that already and I am not sure how this answers my question. let's say I have <foo:elem xmlns:foo="foo.org" foo:favorite-lang="fr"/> and assume we attribute namespaces are the ones of the element unless specified otherwise, then this could be written as <elem xmlns="foo.org" favorite-lang="fr">. Why shouldn't I then be able to use favorite-lang on a different element, in a different namespace even

  1059. adiaholic has left

  1060. flow

    thanks Link Mauve, but I think I new all that already and I am not sure how this answers my question. let's say I have <foo:elem xmlns:foo="foo.org" foo:favorite-lang="fr"/> and assume attribute namespaces are the ones of the element unless specified otherwise, then this could be written as <elem xmlns="foo.org" favorite-lang="fr">. Why shouldn't I then be able to use favorite-lang on a different element, in a different namespace even

  1061. bean has left

  1062. inky has left

  1063. inky has joined

  1064. adiaholic has joined

  1065. Titi has left

  1066. inky has left

  1067. inky has joined

  1068. Titi has joined

  1069. adiaholic has left

  1070. papatutuwawa has left

  1071. adiaholic has joined

  1072. Menel has left

  1073. inky has left

  1074. L29Ah has left

  1075. L29Ah has joined

  1076. jgart has joined

  1077. inky has joined

  1078. adiaholic has left

  1079. jgart has left

  1080. inky has left

  1081. inky has joined

  1082. adiaholic has joined

  1083. Tobias has left

  1084. adiaholic has left

  1085. moparisthebest has left

  1086. عبود has joined

  1087. floretta has left

  1088. floretta has joined

  1089. goffi has left

  1090. adiaholic has joined

  1091. moparisthebest has joined

  1092. adiaholic has left

  1093. karoshi has left

  1094. عبود has left

  1095. վարյա has left

  1096. վարյա has joined

  1097. marc has left

  1098. gooya has left

  1099. inky has left

  1100. inky has joined

  1101. عبود has joined

  1102. mjk has left

  1103. mjk has joined

  1104. marc has joined

  1105. inky has left

  1106. inky has joined

  1107. floretta has left

  1108. tykayn has left

  1109. عبود has left

  1110. floretta has joined

  1111. marc has left

  1112. adiaholic has joined

  1113. marc0s has left

  1114. pasdesushi has left

  1115. marc0s has joined

  1116. adiaholic has left

  1117. antranigv has joined

  1118. Apollo has joined

  1119. debacle has left

  1120. djorz has left

  1121. emus has left

  1122. adiaholic has joined

  1123. antranigv has left

  1124. adiaholic has left

  1125. andrey.g has joined

  1126. mjk has left

  1127. Half-Shot has left

  1128. homebeach has left

  1129. Matthew has left

  1130. uhoreg has left

  1131. Half-Shot has joined

  1132. Matthew has joined

  1133. homebeach has joined

  1134. uhoreg has joined

  1135. Apollo has left

  1136. djorz has joined

  1137. xecks has left

  1138. BASSGOD has left

  1139. floretta has left

  1140. floretta has joined

  1141. BASSGOD has joined

  1142. BASSGOD has left

  1143. ti_gj06 has left

  1144. BASSGOD has joined