XSF Discussion - 2022-04-07


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  211. Daniel goffi: as a module to an existing server?
  212. Daniel any source code I could look at?
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  228. goffi > goffi: as a module to an existing server? As a component with my pubsub component. No code published yet, I'm updating XEP-0356 implementation in it and Prosody first.
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  374. Guus does the specs allow for (non-namespaced) attributes to be added to message/iq/presence stanza elements?
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  377. Guus `<message foo='bar' ... `
  378. Zash Yes officer, this message right here ↑
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  380. Zash Guus, have fun with the protocol police 😉
  381. Link Mauve Woop woop~
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  392. jonas’ Guus, most certainly not
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  396. mjk Meanwhile, in Matrix: -- This is not the protocol violation you're looking for *waves hand, making the protocol support it* -- Woah...
  397. jonas’ use namespaced attributes, they're there for that use case
  398. Zash or stuff it in a namespaced element
  399. jonas’ or that, but you can't do that for IQs
  400. Kev Please don't shove new stuff in a stanza header, I would expect most of the world to break in that case.
  401. Zash I expect half the world to pass it along to the other half, where it'll break.
  402. jonas’ one half being prosody, the other half being ejabberd?
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  404. Guus I'm asking because I was amazed that I'm looking at client traffic that does it, without it breaking in dramatic ways.
  405. Guus are _namespaced_ attributes on those elements even ok?
  406. Kev Not really.
  407. Zash Slightly less not okay at least.
  408. Kev We're bad at documenting our extension points, though.
  409. Zash It's XML! Everywhere's an extension point if you namespace it!!
  410. Guus You'd need to somehow add the namespace to the ... stream element? Feels pretty messy.
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  413. Guus So, yeah, shove it in a child element somewhere.
  414. Guus to make you share in my misery, I'm looking at an attribute on a message stanza that starts with this:
  415. Zash no no noooooooo
  416. Guus `sensorList="{&quot;data&quot;:[{&quot;type&quot;:&quot;sensorOne&quot;,` followed by slightly over 2000 characters
  417. Guus and that's just one of those attributes. :D
  418. Kev JSON inside a default-namespaced attribute on a message stanza. I don't see what could possibly go wrong.
  419. Guus walks out of the bar, whistling.
  420. Zash fills eyes with kerosene
  421. Kev Really, what's the odd Eldrich Horror between friends?
  422. Maranda huhus.
  423. Kev Really, what's the odd Eldritch Horror between friends?
  424. Guus but as I said: this doesn't break, apparently.
  425. Kev I think you've just not found the myriad places it breaks, yet :)
  426. jonas’ Guus, no you don't, you can <message xmlns:foo='bar' foo:fnord='xyz'/>
  427. jonas’ Guus, no you don't have to declare it on the stream header, you can <message xmlns:foo='bar' foo:fnord='xyz'/>
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  429. Guus jonas’ ah yes. Still not a good idea probably.
  430. Guus Kev: let me put it this way: it's running in production, but they're now reaching out because of some issues.
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  432. Kev Oh, I'm happy to believe that given some controlled subset of software it might work. Just that I would expect it to break in the general case.
  433. Zash Guus, show them https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0432.html
  434. Guus (also: hardcoded stanza IDs)
  435. Guus Zash: but it has a big red warning on top of it! must be worse than rolling our own!
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  438. Guus (should we make those warnings slightly less off-putting by renaming them to 'beware' and print them in a color that's not firetruck-orange?)
  439. Zash Guus: Or push for advancement?
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  448. jonas’ this sounds like a low-hanging push-for-advancement fruit indeed
  449. Guus Zash we can do that for individual XEPs - I was trying to go for a more generic approach.
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  451. Zash I think I even added that to mod_rest
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  483. Guus RFC6121 8.4 explicitly states that 'extension attributes' _are_ allowed, I think. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6120#section-8.4
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  485. Zash Is now the time to remember how the `@c` attribute in `<a xmlns="b" c="d"/>` isn't in the "b" namespace?
  486. Guus XML prefixes
  487. Guus as jonas showed earlier.
  488. Zash Like `xmlns:extension="blah" extension:attr="moo"`, yeah that's fine.
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  490. Guus `xmlns:prefix="uri" prefix:c="yey"`
  491. Guus yeah, exactly.
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  493. Kev Guus: Yes, it does. I predict it would still break things.
  494. MattJ It will break broken things
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  497. Kev Sure. Whereas doing it inside jabber:client will break unbroken things.
  498. jonas’ nobody proposed doing it in jabber:client
  499. jonas’ which I'm sure will cause fun effects :D
  500. Kev That's exactly what the sample Guus pasted was doing.
  501. jonas’ no
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  505. Kev Nobody was proposing it was a good idea, naturally.
  506. jonas’ in <message xmlns="jabber:client" foo="bar"/>, @foo is *not* in the jabber:client namespace.
  507. Kev Ok, default namespace, yes.
  508. jonas’ no
  509. jonas’ without namespace.
  510. Zash Let's just pretend it's in jabber:client plz
  511. jonas’ <message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar"/> is in jabber:client then.
  512. jonas’ and it is semantically different from the former
  513. Zash That's what all code I have ever known does
  514. jonas’ so please let's not pretend that
  515. Kev I know what I mean, even if I'm not using the right terms for it.
  516. Link Mauve Dino’s internal representation does the wrong thing here. :<
  517. Zash This is a silly part of XML
  518. Kev I do know that attributes without a namespace live outside, although I always miscall 'no namespace' 'the default namespace'.
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  521. moparisthebest > in <message xmlns="jabber:client" foo="bar"/>, @foo is *not* in the jabber:client namespace. so every websocket implementation ever is broken ?
  522. Kev No, I don't believe so.
  523. jonas’ moparisthebest, why?
  524. jonas’ moparisthebest, the attributes on stanzas in XMPP are supposed to be in no namespace
  525. Kev The attributes in XMPP are in the null-namespace, whatever the right term is.
  526. moparisthebest oh, ok then
  527. Zash But they ... belong with the whatever namespace xmlns specifies, somehow
  528. moparisthebest this hurts my brain and I do not like it
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  531. Zash Yes. Let's pretend this obscure corner of XML doesn't exist!
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  533. Kev Everyone pretends they live in the jabber:client/jabber:server namespaces because that's what XML would do if it wasn't insane.
  534. Kev But they're not.
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  536. Zash We're really using XmppML anyways 😉
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  546. Kev Really all the attributes in XMPP should have been namespaced, but that would have been hideous.
  547. moparisthebest I'm all for going back to pretending it worked the way I always thought it worked
  548. MattJ votes for that plan
  549. jonas’ moparisthebest, what do you do on `<message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar"/>` then?
  550. jonas’ moparisthebest, what do you do on `<message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar" foo="baz"/>` then?
  551. moparisthebest honestly I have no idea
  552. moparisthebest reject whatever made it as bad software? :)
  553. jonas’ :(
  554. Zash redirect whoever made the software to an insane asylum perhaps?
  555. moparisthebest up until 2 minutes ago I would have said that's a duplicate attribute, both under jabber:client
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  566. Kev Sometimes being wrong is the better option :)
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  569. moparisthebest so to be clear, any attribute that doesn't have an explicit `namespace:` in front is *not* in a namespace at all ?
  570. Zash apparently
  571. moparisthebest ever, regardless of higher level namespaces ?
  572. Zash so like `(null):attr=""`
  573. Zash I'm not about to read the XML specification.
  574. moparisthebest :mind-blown:
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  579. Kev I believe that to be correct, yes, although it's a while since I checked in the spec and I might misremember.
  580. Kev It's a bit like Dialback. You understand it, you go to sleep, and you instantly forget how bad it really is, to protect yourself.
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  603. flow maybe there is a good reason why non-qualified attribute names are in a namespace without value?
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  606. flow what's again the difference between xep432 and xep335?
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  608. flow ahh ep432 builds upon xep335
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  673. jonas’ moparisthebest, https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#defaulting
  674. jonas’ > Default namespace declarations do not apply directly to attribute names; the interpretation of unprefixed attributes is determined by the element on which they appear.
  675. jonas’ > The namespace name for an unprefixed attribute name always has no value.
  676. jonas’ (namespace name == namespace URI in more common lingo)
  677. jonas’ The second example in https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#uniqAttrs here is the "adversarial" example we talked about earlier, with xmlns="x" xmlns:prefix="x" and attributes with and without prefix on the same element being legal
  678. jonas’ The second example in https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#uniqAttrs is the "adversarial" example we talked about earlier, with xmlns="x" xmlns:prefix="x" and attributes with and without prefix on the same element being legal
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  706. wurstsalat hi! I would like to attribute autor(s) of the XMPP logo: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:XMPP_logo.svg Who should I attribute this to? "XMPP Standards Foundation", "Raja SANDHU" (as the original author), all of the authors who modified the logo, or all of the above?
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  708. ralphm wurstsalat: I think Raja Sandhu first, and XSF second. I don't think that the cosmetic fix was actually "authored", but instead working around an SVG rendering artifact.
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  711. moparisthebest > Default namespace declarations do not apply directly to attribute names; the interpretation of unprefixed attributes is determined by the element on which they appear. wait, what? later it says: > the default namespace does not apply to attribute names the first seems to say that default namespace declarations apply to attribute names *sometimes* ?
  712. wurstsalat ralphm, thank you!
  713. Link Mauve moparisthebest, no, it means that it applies to the element, which incidentally defines which attributes are accepted and how to interpret them.
  714. jonas’ unnamespaced attributes inherently belong to the element, and how to interpret them is at the elements discretion
  715. moparisthebest Link Mauve, still not understanding, if an attribute doesn't have a prefix, does it ever have a namespace ?
  716. jonas’ moparisthebest, no.
  717. Link Mauve moparisthebest, never.
  718. jonas’ otherwise, the second example from that uniqAttrs anchor would not universally be valid
  719. Link Mauve In <a xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' href='/'/> and in <a xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' href='/'/>, both @href are in the null namespace but both are defined by their parent element(’s namespace).
  720. Link Mauve (The latter is an addition in SVG2, it would usually be in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink namespace.)
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  722. moparisthebest so a namespace for an element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it ?
  723. moparisthebest s/non-namespaced/null-namespaced/
  724. Link Mauve Of course, since it defines the element.
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  729. jonas’ no, the element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it
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  734. jonas’ indirectly, the element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it
  735. moparisthebest I think I understand this now, thanks
  736. moparisthebest I don't understand in what universe this makes sense though, so if anyone wants to help with that...
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  738. Link Mauve moparisthebest, it allows different namespaces to define their elements (and the allowed attributes on them) without fear of incompatibility with another unknown namespace defining the same elements and attributes but with a different meaning.
  739. jonas’ Link Mauve, but that would still work if attributes worked the same way as elements
  740. jonas’ however, it allows namespaces to define attributes which have a meaning independently from the element they appear on
  741. Link Mauve Right.
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  743. jonas’ if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically (in the way xlink:href or xml:lang is used generically)
  744. jonas’ though I think that this particular trade-off is not worth the headaches it causes
  745. jonas’ as namespace URIs are cheap
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  747. Link Mauve We have no way to go back in time and change XML 1.0 + Namespaces anyway.
  748. Link Mauve No known* way.
  749. moparisthebest unfortunately this feels like proof that time travel is impossible
  750. moparisthebest surely if it was, someone would have fixed this first
  751. Guus > if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically (in the way xlink:href or xml:lang is used generically) Ironically, I have never seen the latter without that prefix.
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  753. Link Mauve Guus, XML 1.0 + Namespaces forbids redefining the namespace of the xmlns or xml prefixes.
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  759. Guus Link Mauve: but if I read the above correctly then any element can define the usage of that attribute without explicitly requiring the namespace prefix?
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  764. Link Mauve Guus, “that attribute”, the @xml:lang?
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  766. Link Mauve It already has a prefix, which is xml, and is illegal to redefine or to define anything to the same namespace.
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  769. Guus Link Mauve: I misinterpreted jonas’ earlier comment.
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  776. flow > jonas’> if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically why shouldn't I be able to use the attribute with a prefix in an element not beloging to the namespace the attribute was defined in?
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  779. Link Mauve flow, conceptually, an attribute only refines its element.
  780. Link Mauve It wouldn’t make any sense to use e.g. the XHTML video/@loop on an XMPP message/body.
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  782. Link Mauve It would make sense to include an XHTML video element in an XMPP message though.
  783. Link Mauve As it is a standalone element.
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  785. Link Mauve Note also that even in a single namespace, multiple different elements might define an identically-named attribute.
  786. Link Mauve Possibly with different semantics.
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  802. mjk I feel more enlightened and a little bit deader inside at the same time. Thanks everyone for the questions and the answers!
  803. Link Mauve :D
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  805. moparisthebest same mjk
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  823. moparisthebest After 2 years of intense research, Twitter proposes inventing XMPP: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/3-6-2022-a-self-authenticating-social-protocol
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  834. mjk at last! The fourth xmpp!
  835. mjk (counting activitypub towards that)
  836. moparisthebest > With email, if you change your provider then your email address has to change too. flat-out lying is fine guys, they are twitter
  837. Sam That seems like a reasonable thing to say given their audience, they obviously just mean "they will have addresses not tied to a domain so you don't have to use your own domain if you want to move your account"
  838. moparisthebest "their audience" the subset of people that will read an article about a protocol but not understand basic email concepts? :/
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  840. Sam It's a high level overview, not a deep dive into technical details. It seems like a reasonable thing to elide over.
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  842. moparisthebest then don't mention it, rather than lie
  843. Sam It's not a lie, generally speaking what they're saying is true. They obviously just mean "it has a domain name in it", what they're suggesting is that you don't have to lug a domain name around, I think. eg. if you sign up on @twitter.com and get address "myname" then move to "example.com" your address will still just be "Myname" but a new server will be handling the data.
  844. mjk > We want users to have an easy path to switching servers, even without the server’s help. That's, like, rocket science! Right, Matt? ;)
  845. Zash And then just burn massive amounts of coal to power the blockchain to record what server every username is currently living on?
  846. Zash Easy! Why didn't we think of this????
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  850. mjk If only there was a global infrastructure for paying to reserve a name...
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  853. moparisthebest what if we invented some type of name service people could use to register names of their choosing?
  854. moparisthebest and like some type of hierarchical protocol to look them up? it would be revolutionary!
  855. Zash humans often organize themselves in hierarchies, perhaps something modeled after that?
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  859. mjk It could also have authentication of records built in from the start!
  860. mjk It could also have hierarchical authentication of records built in from the start!
  861. moparisthebest now that would be something...
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  998. MattJ Topic change: As I posted a while ago to the list, xmpp.net is a home to some a handful of "not officially XSF" projects, most notably the IM Observatory (and probably its successor)
  999. MattJ One of the projects has requested a MUC, which could live on muc.xmpp.org but might be confusing as a "not officially XSF" thing
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  1001. MattJ So one alternative option is to add a vhost for muc.xmpp.net or similar to this server
  1002. MattJ From an iteam perspective I'm fine with that, and from a board perspective I'm fine with that. Does anyone have a perspective from this would not be fine? If not, I'll go ahead and set it up soon.
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  1004. moparisthebest or just stop playing that game and call it an official XSF thing
  1005. moparisthebest not official, only ran 100% by the same people running the XSF
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  1009. emus moparisthebest: that will end up in lots of "discussion" I assume?
  1010. MattJ Making things official XSF things is not always a good thing for such projects, or the XSF
  1011. emus I tend to agree with Matt
  1012. MattJ This is my opinion, I know we have had discussions in the past where people disagreed with it
  1013. MattJ i.e. some people are of the opinion that the XSF should aim to be and do everything XMPP, while I prefer to keep it mostly just a vehicle for publishing standards
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  1015. moparisthebest just seems silly to me to continue "it's not official ;D" vs "ok XSF runs it"
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  1019. MattJ Partly because it has proven time and time again to be pretty bad at doing anything else, but mostly okay at the standards thing :)
  1020. emus ^^
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  1022. emus MattJ - nothing against the Newsletter - OKKK?!?!! 😉
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  1024. mjk So it's a "trade mark" issue: "yea, we run it, but don't expect it to be as great as the main thing XSF is known for"? :)
  1025. MattJ emus, no, the newsletter has been a rare exception... but that's mostly thanks to your dedication :)
  1026. emus just kidding 🙂
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  1029. Sam I was about to say the opposite: the XSF is really bad at the newsletter, it's an XSF project that got dumped on the shoulders (voluntarily, of course) of a single individual who gets almost no support from anyone else :) (I say counting myself as complicit in that)
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  1031. Sam The newsletter itself is great, the XSF involvement not so much :)
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  1040. emus Well, no its not on me of course, I always try to list and make transparent who supported and it alright like that
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  1043. emus Well, no its not on me of course, I always try to list and make transparent who supported and its alright like that
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  1058. flow thanks Link Mauve, but I think I new all that already and I am not sure how this answers my question. let's say I have <foo:elem xmlns:foo="foo.org" foo:favorite-lang="fr"/> and assume we attribute namespaces are the ones of the element unless specified otherwise, then this could be written as <elem xmlns="foo.org" favorite-lang="fr">. Why shouldn't I then be able to use favorite-lang on a different element, in a different namespace even
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  1060. flow thanks Link Mauve, but I think I new all that already and I am not sure how this answers my question. let's say I have <foo:elem xmlns:foo="foo.org" foo:favorite-lang="fr"/> and assume attribute namespaces are the ones of the element unless specified otherwise, then this could be written as <elem xmlns="foo.org" favorite-lang="fr">. Why shouldn't I then be able to use favorite-lang on a different element, in a different namespace even
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