XSF Discussion - 2022-04-07

  1. adiaholic has left
  2. wgreenhouse has left
  3. Maranda[x] has left
  4. Maranda[x] has joined
  5. daags has joined
  6. daags has left
  7. daags has joined
  8. wgreenhouse has joined
  9. harry837374884 has left
  10. harry837374884 has joined
  11. wgreenhouse has left
  12. millesimus has left
  13. qwestion has joined
  14. emus has left
  15. Menel has joined
  16. restive_monk has joined
  17. Half-Shot has left
  18. homebeach has left
  19. Matthew has left
  20. uhoreg has left
  21. Half-Shot has joined
  22. Matthew has joined
  23. homebeach has joined
  24. uhoreg has joined
  25. millesimus has joined
  26. wgreenhouse has joined
  27. qwestion has left
  28. qwestion has joined
  29. Calvin has joined
  30. arcxi has left
  31. Menel has left
  32. marc0s has left
  33. marc0s has joined
  34. Calvin has left
  35. neshtaxmpp has left
  36. neshtaxmpp has joined
  37. adiaholic has joined
  38. kinetik has left
  39. kinetik has joined
  40. Steve Kille has left
  41. Kev has left
  42. Steve Kille has joined
  43. Kev has joined
  44. qy has left
  45. qy has joined
  46. neshtaxmpp has left
  47. kinetik has left
  48. neshtaxmpp has joined
  49. jcbrand has left
  50. kinetik has joined
  51. adiaholic has left
  52. adiaholic has joined
  53. neshtaxmpp has left
  54. qwestion has left
  55. adiaholic has left
  56. neshtaxmpp has joined
  57. neshtaxmpp has left
  58. neshtaxmpp has joined
  59. adiaholic has joined
  60. adiaholic has left
  61. andrey.g has left
  62. adiaholic has joined
  63. restive_monk has left
  64. adiaholic has left
  65. adiaholic has joined
  66. restive_monk has joined
  67. marc0s has left
  68. marc0s has joined
  69. neshtaxmpp has left
  70. jgart has left
  71. neshtaxmpp has joined
  72. adiaholic has left
  73. adiaholic has joined
  74. Yagiza has joined
  75. yushyin has left
  76. xnamed has left
  77. Apollo has joined
  78. yushyin has joined
  79. Paganini has left
  80. kinetik has left
  81. wladmis has joined
  82. restive_monk has left
  83. restive_monk has joined
  84. moparisthebest has joined
  85. harry837374884 has left
  86. harry837374884 has joined
  87. restive_monk has left
  88. marc0s has left
  89. marc0s has joined
  90. floretta has left
  91. restive_monk has joined
  92. floretta has joined
  93. adiaholic has left
  94. Menel has joined
  95. restive_monk has left
  96. restive_monk has joined
  97. wladmis has left
  98. wladmis has joined
  99. adiaholic has joined
  100. Tobias has joined
  101. Tobias has left
  102. Tobias has joined
  103. adiaholic has left
  104. adiaholic has joined
  105. restive_monk has left
  106. adiaholic has left
  107. wladmis has left
  108. wladmis has joined
  109. yushyin has left
  110. moparisthebest has left
  111. restive_monk has joined
  112. վարյա has left
  113. վարյա has joined
  114. adiaholic has joined
  115. վարյա has left
  116. վարյա has joined
  117. Sam has left
  118. Sam has joined
  119. yushyin has joined
  120. վարյա has left
  121. վարյա has joined
  122. wladmis has left
  123. COM8 has joined
  124. COM8 has left
  125. wladmis has joined
  126. emus has joined
  127. wladmis has left
  128. wladmis has joined
  129. ti_gj06 has joined
  130. konstantinos has joined
  131. wurstsalat has joined
  132. harry837374884 has left
  133. floretta has left
  134. millesimus has left
  135. Daniel has left
  136. msavoritias has joined
  137. Daniel has joined
  138. floretta has joined
  139. jcbrand has joined
  140. tykayn has joined
  141. վարյա has left
  142. pasdesushi has joined
  143. restive_monk has left
  144. BASSGOD has left
  145. debacle has joined
  146. restive_monk has joined
  147. marc has joined
  148. BASSGOD has joined
  149. adiaholic has left
  150. վարյա has joined
  151. adiaholic has joined
  152. adiaholic has left
  153. djorz has joined
  154. Sam has left
  155. վարյա has left
  156. վարյա has joined
  157. Sam has joined
  158. yushyin has left
  159. pasdesushi has left
  160. arcxi has joined
  161. adiaholic has joined
  162. millesimus has joined
  163. daags has left
  164. Half-Shot has left
  165. homebeach has left
  166. Matthew has left
  167. uhoreg has left
  168. Half-Shot has joined
  169. Matthew has joined
  170. homebeach has joined
  171. uhoreg has joined
  172. millesimus has left
  173. djorz has left
  174. pasdesushi has joined
  175. lovetox has left
  176. yushyin has joined
  177. goffi has joined
  178. adiaholic has left
  179. Apollo has left
  180. daags has joined
  181. yushyin has left
  182. Sam has left
  183. Maranda[x] has left
  184. Maranda[x] has joined
  185. emus has left
  186. Andrzej has joined
  187. Sam has joined
  188. Andrzej has left
  189. Andrzej has joined
  190. Daniel has left
  191. adiaholic has joined
  192. Daniel has joined
  193. Sam has left
  194. Sam has joined
  195. Fishbowler has left
  196. Fishbowler has joined
  197. marc has left
  198. harry837374884 has joined
  199. debacle has left
  200. Sam has left
  201. adiaholic has left
  202. marc has joined
  203. Fishbowler has left
  204. Fishbowler has joined
  205. emus has joined
  206. millesimus has joined
  207. V_tor has left
  208. gooya has joined
  209. adiaholic has joined
  210. floretta has left
  211. Daniel goffi: as a module to an existing server?
  212. Daniel any source code I could look at?
  213. konstantinos has left
  214. yushyin has joined
  215. restive_monk has left
  216. wladmis has left
  217. wladmis has joined
  218. Sam has joined
  219. Andrzej has left
  220. Andrzej has joined
  221. restive_monk has joined
  222. վարյա has left
  223. վարյա has joined
  224. marc has left
  225. Sam has left
  226. BASSGOD has left
  227. Sam has joined
  228. goffi > goffi: as a module to an existing server? As a component with my pubsub component. No code published yet, I'm updating XEP-0356 implementation in it and Prosody first.
  229. yushyin has left
  230. Sam has left
  231. adiaholic has left
  232. adiaholic has joined
  233. wladmis has left
  234. BASSGOD has joined
  235. Sam has joined
  236. mjk has joined
  237. Steve Kille has left
  238. gooya has left
  239. gooya has joined
  240. stp has joined
  241. Sam has left
  242. floretta has joined
  243. restive_monk has left
  244. վարյա has left
  245. վարյա has joined
  246. konstantinos has joined
  247. lovetox has joined
  248. adiaholic has left
  249. BASSGOD has left
  250. yushyin has joined
  251. adiaholic has joined
  252. millesimus has left
  253. restive_monk has joined
  254. millesimus has joined
  255. neshtaxmpp has left
  256. marc has joined
  257. վարյա has left
  258. Andrzej has left
  259. վարյա has joined
  260. floretta has left
  261. BASSGOD has joined
  262. floretta has joined
  263. pasdesushi has left
  264. pasdesushi has joined
  265. marc0s has left
  266. marc0s has joined
  267. Half-Shot has left
  268. homebeach has left
  269. Matthew has left
  270. uhoreg has left
  271. Half-Shot has joined
  272. Matthew has joined
  273. homebeach has joined
  274. uhoreg has joined
  275. ti_gj06 has left
  276. Paganini has joined
  277. վարյա has left
  278. վարյա has joined
  279. pasdesushi has left
  280. lskdjf has joined
  281. Sam has joined
  282. yushyin has left
  283. pasdesushi has joined
  284. restive_monk has left
  285. restive_monk has joined
  286. Sam has left
  287. Steve Kille has joined
  288. Sam has joined
  289. Sam has left
  290. gooya has left
  291. pasdesushi has left
  292. gooya has joined
  293. lovetox has left
  294. Menel has left
  295. yushyin has joined
  296. stp has left
  297. qy has left
  298. Sam has joined
  299. stp has joined
  300. lovetox has joined
  301. Sam has left
  302. Sam has joined
  303. adiaholic has left
  304. adiaholic has joined
  305. Sam has left
  306. adiaholic has left
  307. adiaholic has joined
  308. mjk has left
  309. Neustradamus has left
  310. ti_gj06 has joined
  311. mjk has joined
  312. Menel has joined
  313. Sam has joined
  314. adiaholic has left
  315. adiaholic has joined
  316. Sam has left
  317. Wojtek has left
  318. Sam has joined
  319. Andrzej has joined
  320. adiaholic has left
  321. adiaholic has joined
  322. mjk has left
  323. debacle has joined
  324. mjk has joined
  325. qy has joined
  326. ti_gj06 has left
  327. ti_gj06 has joined
  328. ti_gj06 has left
  329. ti_gj06 has joined
  330. վարյա has left
  331. վարյա has joined
  332. Sam has left
  333. ti_gj06 has left
  334. Sam has joined
  335. ti_gj06 has joined
  336. atomicwatch has left
  337. Half-Shot has left
  338. homebeach has left
  339. Matthew has left
  340. uhoreg has left
  341. Half-Shot has joined
  342. Matthew has joined
  343. homebeach has joined
  344. uhoreg has joined
  345. mh has left
  346. mh has joined
  347. Sam has left
  348. xnamed has joined
  349. pasdesushi has joined
  350. Sam has joined
  351. عبود has joined
  352. ti_gj06 has left
  353. ti_gj06 has joined
  354. Maranda[x] has left
  355. Maranda[x] has joined
  356. Sam has left
  357. adiaholic has left
  358. gooya has left
  359. gooya has joined
  360. adiaholic has joined
  361. Sam has joined
  362. harry837374884 has left
  363. pasdesushi has left
  364. antranigv has joined
  365. bean has joined
  366. pasdesushi has joined
  367. adiaholic has left
  368. yushyin has left
  369. adiaholic has joined
  370. emus has left
  371. emus has joined
  372. atomicwatch has joined
  373. adiaholic has left
  374. Guus does the specs allow for (non-namespaced) attributes to be added to message/iq/presence stanza elements?
  375. Andrzej has left
  376. konstantinos has left
  377. Guus `<message foo='bar' ... `
  378. Zash Yes officer, this message right here ↑
  379. adiaholic has joined
  380. Zash Guus, have fun with the protocol police 😉
  381. Link Mauve Woop woop~
  382. yushyin has joined
  383. gooya has left
  384. Half-Shot has left
  385. homebeach has left
  386. Matthew has left
  387. uhoreg has left
  388. Half-Shot has joined
  389. Matthew has joined
  390. homebeach has joined
  391. uhoreg has joined
  392. jonas’ Guus, most certainly not
  393. gooya has joined
  394. restive_monk has left
  395. pasdesushi has left
  396. mjk Meanwhile, in Matrix: -- This is not the protocol violation you're looking for *waves hand, making the protocol support it* -- Woah...
  397. jonas’ use namespaced attributes, they're there for that use case
  398. Zash or stuff it in a namespaced element
  399. jonas’ or that, but you can't do that for IQs
  400. Kev Please don't shove new stuff in a stanza header, I would expect most of the world to break in that case.
  401. Zash I expect half the world to pass it along to the other half, where it'll break.
  402. jonas’ one half being prosody, the other half being ejabberd?
  403. lovetox has left
  404. Guus I'm asking because I was amazed that I'm looking at client traffic that does it, without it breaking in dramatic ways.
  405. Guus are _namespaced_ attributes on those elements even ok?
  406. Kev Not really.
  407. Zash Slightly less not okay at least.
  408. Kev We're bad at documenting our extension points, though.
  409. Zash It's XML! Everywhere's an extension point if you namespace it!!
  410. Guus You'd need to somehow add the namespace to the ... stream element? Feels pretty messy.
  411. restive_monk has joined
  412. lovetox has joined
  413. Guus So, yeah, shove it in a child element somewhere.
  414. Guus to make you share in my misery, I'm looking at an attribute on a message stanza that starts with this:
  415. Zash no no noooooooo
  416. Guus `sensorList="{&quot;data&quot;:[{&quot;type&quot;:&quot;sensorOne&quot;,` followed by slightly over 2000 characters
  417. Guus and that's just one of those attributes. :D
  418. Kev JSON inside a default-namespaced attribute on a message stanza. I don't see what could possibly go wrong.
  419. Guus walks out of the bar, whistling.
  420. Zash fills eyes with kerosene
  421. Kev Really, what's the odd Eldrich Horror between friends?
  422. Maranda huhus.
  423. Kev Really, what's the odd Eldritch Horror between friends?
  424. Guus but as I said: this doesn't break, apparently.
  425. Kev I think you've just not found the myriad places it breaks, yet :)
  426. jonas’ Guus, no you don't, you can <message xmlns:foo='bar' foo:fnord='xyz'/>
  427. jonas’ Guus, no you don't have to declare it on the stream header, you can <message xmlns:foo='bar' foo:fnord='xyz'/>
  428. Apollo has joined
  429. Guus jonas’ ah yes. Still not a good idea probably.
  430. Guus Kev: let me put it this way: it's running in production, but they're now reaching out because of some issues.
  431. lovetox has left
  432. Kev Oh, I'm happy to believe that given some controlled subset of software it might work. Just that I would expect it to break in the general case.
  433. Zash Guus, show them https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0432.html
  434. Guus (also: hardcoded stanza IDs)
  435. Guus Zash: but it has a big red warning on top of it! must be worse than rolling our own!
  436. lovetox has joined
  437. wladmis has joined
  438. Guus (should we make those warnings slightly less off-putting by renaming them to 'beware' and print them in a color that's not firetruck-orange?)
  439. Zash Guus: Or push for advancement?
  440. Half-Shot has left
  441. homebeach has left
  442. Matthew has left
  443. uhoreg has left
  444. Half-Shot has joined
  445. Matthew has joined
  446. homebeach has joined
  447. uhoreg has joined
  448. jonas’ this sounds like a low-hanging push-for-advancement fruit indeed
  449. Guus Zash we can do that for individual XEPs - I was trying to go for a more generic approach.
  450. Ingolf has left
  451. Zash I think I even added that to mod_rest
  452. adiaholic has left
  453. lovetox has left
  454. Ingolf has joined
  455. վարյա has left
  456. վարյա has joined
  457. Half-Shot has left
  458. homebeach has left
  459. Matthew has left
  460. uhoreg has left
  461. Half-Shot has joined
  462. Matthew has joined
  463. homebeach has joined
  464. uhoreg has joined
  465. عبود has left
  466. yushyin has left
  467. lovetox has joined
  468. pasdesushi has joined
  469. xnamed has left
  470. antranigv has left
  471. antranigv has joined
  472. floretta has left
  473. floretta has joined
  474. yushyin has joined
  475. adiaholic has joined
  476. antranigv has left
  477. lovetox has left
  478. adiaholic has left
  479. adiaholic has joined
  480. yushyin has left
  481. antranigv has joined
  482. harry837374884 has joined
  483. Guus RFC6121 8.4 explicitly states that 'extension attributes' _are_ allowed, I think. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6120#section-8.4
  484. moparisthebest has joined
  485. Zash Is now the time to remember how the `@c` attribute in `<a xmlns="b" c="d"/>` isn't in the "b" namespace?
  486. Guus XML prefixes
  487. Guus as jonas showed earlier.
  488. Zash Like `xmlns:extension="blah" extension:attr="moo"`, yeah that's fine.
  489. arcxi has left
  490. Guus `xmlns:prefix="uri" prefix:c="yey"`
  491. Guus yeah, exactly.
  492. antranigv has left
  493. Kev Guus: Yes, it does. I predict it would still break things.
  494. MattJ It will break broken things
  495. adiaholic has left
  496. adiaholic has joined
  497. Kev Sure. Whereas doing it inside jabber:client will break unbroken things.
  498. jonas’ nobody proposed doing it in jabber:client
  499. jonas’ which I'm sure will cause fun effects :D
  500. Kev That's exactly what the sample Guus pasted was doing.
  501. jonas’ no
  502. Wojtek has joined
  503. sbach has left
  504. sbach has joined
  505. Kev Nobody was proposing it was a good idea, naturally.
  506. jonas’ in <message xmlns="jabber:client" foo="bar"/>, @foo is *not* in the jabber:client namespace.
  507. Kev Ok, default namespace, yes.
  508. jonas’ no
  509. jonas’ without namespace.
  510. Zash Let's just pretend it's in jabber:client plz
  511. jonas’ <message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar"/> is in jabber:client then.
  512. jonas’ and it is semantically different from the former
  513. Zash That's what all code I have ever known does
  514. jonas’ so please let's not pretend that
  515. Kev I know what I mean, even if I'm not using the right terms for it.
  516. Link Mauve Dino’s internal representation does the wrong thing here. :<
  517. Zash This is a silly part of XML
  518. Kev I do know that attributes without a namespace live outside, although I always miscall 'no namespace' 'the default namespace'.
  519. wgreenhouse has left
  520. wgreenhouse has joined
  521. moparisthebest > in <message xmlns="jabber:client" foo="bar"/>, @foo is *not* in the jabber:client namespace. so every websocket implementation ever is broken ?
  522. Kev No, I don't believe so.
  523. jonas’ moparisthebest, why?
  524. jonas’ moparisthebest, the attributes on stanzas in XMPP are supposed to be in no namespace
  525. Kev The attributes in XMPP are in the null-namespace, whatever the right term is.
  526. moparisthebest oh, ok then
  527. Zash But they ... belong with the whatever namespace xmlns specifies, somehow
  528. moparisthebest this hurts my brain and I do not like it
  529. adiaholic has left
  530. yushyin has joined
  531. Zash Yes. Let's pretend this obscure corner of XML doesn't exist!
  532. վարյա has left
  533. Kev Everyone pretends they live in the jabber:client/jabber:server namespaces because that's what XML would do if it wasn't insane.
  534. Kev But they're not.
  535. qy has left
  536. Zash We're really using XmppML anyways 😉
  537. Half-Shot has left
  538. homebeach has left
  539. Matthew has left
  540. uhoreg has left
  541. Half-Shot has joined
  542. Matthew has joined
  543. homebeach has joined
  544. uhoreg has joined
  545. qy has joined
  546. Kev Really all the attributes in XMPP should have been namespaced, but that would have been hideous.
  547. moparisthebest I'm all for going back to pretending it worked the way I always thought it worked
  548. MattJ votes for that plan
  549. jonas’ moparisthebest, what do you do on `<message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar"/>` then?
  550. jonas’ moparisthebest, what do you do on `<message xmlns="jabber:client" xmlns:jc="jabber:client" jc:foo="bar" foo="baz"/>` then?
  551. moparisthebest honestly I have no idea
  552. moparisthebest reject whatever made it as bad software? :)
  553. jonas’ :(
  554. Zash redirect whoever made the software to an insane asylum perhaps?
  555. moparisthebest up until 2 minutes ago I would have said that's a duplicate attribute, both under jabber:client
  556. վարյա has joined
  557. wgreenhouse has left
  558. wladmis has left
  559. yushyin has left
  560. antranigv has joined
  561. wladmis has joined
  562. restive_monk has left
  563. wgreenhouse has joined
  564. antranigv has left
  565. restive_monk has joined
  566. Kev Sometimes being wrong is the better option :)
  567. antranigv has joined
  568. yushyin has joined
  569. moparisthebest so to be clear, any attribute that doesn't have an explicit `namespace:` in front is *not* in a namespace at all ?
  570. Zash apparently
  571. moparisthebest ever, regardless of higher level namespaces ?
  572. Zash so like `(null):attr=""`
  573. Zash I'm not about to read the XML specification.
  574. moparisthebest :mind-blown:
  575. wgreenhouse has left
  576. վարյա has left
  577. kinetik has joined
  578. Wojtek has left
  579. Kev I believe that to be correct, yes, although it's a while since I checked in the spec and I might misremember.
  580. Kev It's a bit like Dialback. You understand it, you go to sleep, and you instantly forget how bad it really is, to protect yourself.
  581. xnamed has joined
  582. floretta has left
  583. floretta has joined
  584. wgreenhouse has joined
  585. վարյա has joined
  586. antranigv has left
  587. վարյա has left
  588. վարյա has joined
  589. վարյա has left
  590. վարյա has joined
  591. antranigv has joined
  592. wgreenhouse has left
  593. wgreenhouse has joined
  594. brunrobe has left
  595. Maranda has left
  596. Mjolnir Archon has left
  597. Mjolnir Archon has joined
  598. Maranda has joined
  599. brunrobe has joined
  600. վարյա has left
  601. վարյա has joined
  602. arcxi has joined
  603. flow maybe there is a good reason why non-qualified attribute names are in a namespace without value?
  604. վարյա has left
  605. վարյա has joined
  606. flow what's again the difference between xep432 and xep335?
  607. ti_gj06 has left
  608. flow ahh ep432 builds upon xep335
  609. վարյա has left
  610. վարյա has joined
  611. COM8 has joined
  612. COM8 has left
  613. pasdesushi has left
  614. վարյա has left
  615. վարյա has joined
  616. pasdesushi has joined
  617. adiaholic has joined
  618. Yagiza has left
  619. Yagiza has joined
  620. konstantinos has joined
  621. վարյա has left
  622. վարյա has joined
  623. վարյա has left
  624. վարյա has joined
  625. վարյա has left
  626. վարյա has joined
  627. BASSGOD has left
  628. emus has left
  629. adiaholic has left
  630. restive_monk has left
  631. վարյա has left
  632. վարյա has joined
  633. վարյա has left
  634. վարյա has joined
  635. վարյա has left
  636. վարյա has joined
  637. pasdesushi has left
  638. restive_monk has joined
  639. adiaholic has joined
  640. Wojtek has joined
  641. վարյա has left
  642. Apollo has left
  643. վարյա has joined
  644. emus has joined
  645. pasdesushi has joined
  646. ti_gj06 has joined
  647. restive_monk has left
  648. restive_monk has joined
  649. emus has left
  650. debacle has left
  651. harry837374884 has left
  652. tykayn has left
  653. BASSGOD has joined
  654. atomicwatch has left
  655. BASSGOD has left
  656. restive_monk has left
  657. wladmis has left
  658. antranigv has left
  659. wladmis has joined
  660. wladmis has left
  661. wladmis has joined
  662. Andrzej has joined
  663. Daniel has left
  664. emus has joined
  665. Andrzej has left
  666. Andrzej has joined
  667. Daniel has joined
  668. Andrzej has left
  669. Andrzej has joined
  670. pasdesushi has left
  671. pasdesushi has joined
  672. restive_monk has joined
  673. jonas’ moparisthebest, https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#defaulting
  674. jonas’ > Default namespace declarations do not apply directly to attribute names; the interpretation of unprefixed attributes is determined by the element on which they appear.
  675. jonas’ > The namespace name for an unprefixed attribute name always has no value.
  676. jonas’ (namespace name == namespace URI in more common lingo)
  677. jonas’ The second example in https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#uniqAttrs here is the "adversarial" example we talked about earlier, with xmlns="x" xmlns:prefix="x" and attributes with and without prefix on the same element being legal
  678. jonas’ The second example in https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#uniqAttrs is the "adversarial" example we talked about earlier, with xmlns="x" xmlns:prefix="x" and attributes with and without prefix on the same element being legal
  679. antranigv has joined
  680. antranigv has left
  681. Apollo has joined
  682. adiaholic has left
  683. millesimus has left
  684. millesimus has joined
  685. debacle has joined
  686. adiaholic has joined
  687. Steve Kille has left
  688. lovetox has joined
  689. nicola has joined
  690. Half-Shot has left
  691. homebeach has left
  692. Matthew has left
  693. uhoreg has left
  694. Half-Shot has joined
  695. Matthew has joined
  696. homebeach has joined
  697. uhoreg has joined
  698. Steve Kille has joined
  699. Steve Kille has left
  700. Steve Kille has joined
  701. harry837374884 has joined
  702. kinetik has left
  703. kinetik has joined
  704. nicola has left
  705. atomicwatch has joined
  706. wurstsalat hi! I would like to attribute autor(s) of the XMPP logo: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:XMPP_logo.svg Who should I attribute this to? "XMPP Standards Foundation", "Raja SANDHU" (as the original author), all of the authors who modified the logo, or all of the above?
  707. adiaholic has left
  708. ralphm wurstsalat: I think Raja Sandhu first, and XSF second. I don't think that the cosmetic fix was actually "authored", but instead working around an SVG rendering artifact.
  709. yushyin has left
  710. adiaholic has joined
  711. moparisthebest > Default namespace declarations do not apply directly to attribute names; the interpretation of unprefixed attributes is determined by the element on which they appear. wait, what? later it says: > the default namespace does not apply to attribute names the first seems to say that default namespace declarations apply to attribute names *sometimes* ?
  712. wurstsalat ralphm, thank you!
  713. Link Mauve moparisthebest, no, it means that it applies to the element, which incidentally defines which attributes are accepted and how to interpret them.
  714. jonas’ unnamespaced attributes inherently belong to the element, and how to interpret them is at the elements discretion
  715. moparisthebest Link Mauve, still not understanding, if an attribute doesn't have a prefix, does it ever have a namespace ?
  716. jonas’ moparisthebest, no.
  717. Link Mauve moparisthebest, never.
  718. jonas’ otherwise, the second example from that uniqAttrs anchor would not universally be valid
  719. Link Mauve In <a xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' href='/'/> and in <a xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' href='/'/>, both @href are in the null namespace but both are defined by their parent element(’s namespace).
  720. Link Mauve (The latter is an addition in SVG2, it would usually be in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink namespace.)
  721. adiaholic has left
  722. moparisthebest so a namespace for an element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it ?
  723. moparisthebest s/non-namespaced/null-namespaced/
  724. Link Mauve Of course, since it defines the element.
  725. Half-Shot has left
  726. homebeach has left
  727. Matthew has left
  728. uhoreg has left
  729. jonas’ no, the element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it
  730. Half-Shot has joined
  731. Matthew has joined
  732. homebeach has joined
  733. uhoreg has joined
  734. jonas’ indirectly, the element decides which non-namespaced attributes it can have on it
  735. moparisthebest I think I understand this now, thanks
  736. moparisthebest I don't understand in what universe this makes sense though, so if anyone wants to help with that...
  737. adiaholic has joined
  738. Link Mauve moparisthebest, it allows different namespaces to define their elements (and the allowed attributes on them) without fear of incompatibility with another unknown namespace defining the same elements and attributes but with a different meaning.
  739. jonas’ Link Mauve, but that would still work if attributes worked the same way as elements
  740. jonas’ however, it allows namespaces to define attributes which have a meaning independently from the element they appear on
  741. Link Mauve Right.
  742. yushyin has joined
  743. jonas’ if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically (in the way xlink:href or xml:lang is used generically)
  744. jonas’ though I think that this particular trade-off is not worth the headaches it causes
  745. jonas’ as namespace URIs are cheap
  746. kinetik has left
  747. Link Mauve We have no way to go back in time and change XML 1.0 + Namespaces anyway.
  748. Link Mauve No known* way.
  749. moparisthebest unfortunately this feels like proof that time travel is impossible
  750. moparisthebest surely if it was, someone would have fixed this first
  751. Guus > if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically (in the way xlink:href or xml:lang is used generically) Ironically, I have never seen the latter without that prefix.
  752. Titi has left
  753. Link Mauve Guus, XML 1.0 + Namespaces forbids redefining the namespace of the xmlns or xml prefixes.
  754. kinetik has joined
  755. adiaholic has left
  756. adiaholic has joined
  757. djorz has joined
  758. lovetox has left
  759. Guus Link Mauve: but if I read the above correctly then any element can define the usage of that attribute without explicitly requiring the namespace prefix?
  760. Andrzej has left
  761. Andrzej has joined
  762. Andrzej has left
  763. Andrzej has joined
  764. Link Mauve Guus, “that attribute”, the @xml:lang?
  765. adiaholic has left
  766. Link Mauve It already has a prefix, which is xml, and is illegal to redefine or to define anything to the same namespace.
  767. antranigv has joined
  768. BASSGOD has joined
  769. Guus Link Mauve: I misinterpreted jonas’ earlier comment.
  770. BASSGOD has left
  771. adiaholic has joined
  772. inky has left
  773. rafasaurus has left
  774. rafasaurus has joined
  775. adiaholic has left
  776. flow > jonas’> if the namespace of an attribute was defaulted to the one of the element, all attributes which are used on *any* element in that namespace can not be used generically why shouldn't I be able to use the attribute with a prefix in an element not beloging to the namespace the attribute was defined in?
  777. ti_gj06 has left
  778. antranigv has left
  779. Link Mauve flow, conceptually, an attribute only refines its element.
  780. Link Mauve It wouldn’t make any sense to use e.g. the XHTML video/@loop on an XMPP message/body.
  781. ti_gj06 has joined
  782. Link Mauve It would make sense to include an XHTML video element in an XMPP message though.
  783. Link Mauve As it is a standalone element.
  784. BASSGOD has joined
  785. Link Mauve Note also that even in a single namespace, multiple different elements might define an identically-named attribute.
  786. Link Mauve Possibly with different semantics.
  787. pasdesushi has left
  788. lovetox has joined
  789. antranigv has joined
  790. adiaholic has joined
  791. kinetik has left
  792. pasdesushi has joined
  793. Daniel has left
  794. ti_gj06 has left
  795. ti_gj06 has joined
  796. jgart has joined
  797. harry837374884 has left
  798. atomicwatch has left
  799. restive_monk has left
  800. harry837374884 has joined
  801. Daniel has joined
  802. mjk I feel more enlightened and a little bit deader inside at the same time. Thanks everyone for the questions and the answers!
  803. Link Mauve :D
  804. adiaholic has left
  805. moparisthebest same mjk
  806. tykayn has joined
  807. Andrzej has left
  808. adiaholic has joined
  809. Andrzej has joined
  810. lovetox has left
  811. BASSGOD has left
  812. adiaholic has left
  813. BASSGOD has joined
  814. inky has joined
  815. Half-Shot has left
  816. homebeach has left
  817. Matthew has left
  818. uhoreg has left
  819. Half-Shot has joined
  820. Matthew has joined
  821. homebeach has joined
  822. uhoreg has joined
  823. moparisthebest After 2 years of intense research, Twitter proposes inventing XMPP: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/3-6-2022-a-self-authenticating-social-protocol
  824. gooya has left
  825. jgart has left
  826. gooya has joined
  827. atomicwatch has joined
  828. adiaholic has joined
  829. Andrzej has left
  830. TheCoffeMaker has left
  831. adiaholic has left
  832. TheCoffeMaker has joined
  833. lovetox has joined
  834. mjk at last! The fourth xmpp!
  835. mjk (counting activitypub towards that)
  836. moparisthebest > With email, if you change your provider then your email address has to change too. flat-out lying is fine guys, they are twitter
  837. Sam That seems like a reasonable thing to say given their audience, they obviously just mean "they will have addresses not tied to a domain so you don't have to use your own domain if you want to move your account"
  838. moparisthebest "their audience" the subset of people that will read an article about a protocol but not understand basic email concepts? :/
  839. Guus has left
  840. Sam It's a high level overview, not a deep dive into technical details. It seems like a reasonable thing to elide over.
  841. Guus has joined
  842. moparisthebest then don't mention it, rather than lie
  843. Sam It's not a lie, generally speaking what they're saying is true. They obviously just mean "it has a domain name in it", what they're suggesting is that you don't have to lug a domain name around, I think. eg. if you sign up on @twitter.com and get address "myname" then move to "example.com" your address will still just be "Myname" but a new server will be handling the data.
  844. mjk > We want users to have an easy path to switching servers, even without the server’s help. That's, like, rocket science! Right, Matt? ;)
  845. Zash And then just burn massive amounts of coal to power the blockchain to record what server every username is currently living on?
  846. Zash Easy! Why didn't we think of this????
  847. kinetik has joined
  848. papatutuwawa has joined
  849. Fishbowler has left
  850. mjk If only there was a global infrastructure for paying to reserve a name...
  851. Fishbowler has joined
  852. pasdesushi has left
  853. moparisthebest what if we invented some type of name service people could use to register names of their choosing?
  854. moparisthebest and like some type of hierarchical protocol to look them up? it would be revolutionary!
  855. Zash humans often organize themselves in hierarchies, perhaps something modeled after that?
  856. Andrzej has joined
  857. kinetik has left
  858. TheCoffeMaker has left
  859. mjk It could also have authentication of records built in from the start!
  860. mjk It could also have hierarchical authentication of records built in from the start!
  861. moparisthebest now that would be something...
  862. Titi has joined
  863. TheCoffeMaker has joined
  864. Andrzej has left
  865. Andrzej has joined
  866. pasdesushi has joined
  867. kinetik has joined
  868. lovetox has left
  869. Titi has left
  870. Andrzej has left
  871. Andrzej has joined
  872. Andrzej has left
  873. Andrzej has joined
  874. TheCoffeMaker has left
  875. adiaholic has joined
  876. TheCoffeMaker has joined
  877. Half-Shot has left
  878. homebeach has left
  879. Matthew has left
  880. uhoreg has left
  881. Half-Shot has joined
  882. Matthew has joined
  883. homebeach has joined
  884. uhoreg has joined
  885. Titi has joined
  886. Wojtek has left
  887. wladmis has left
  888. wladmis has joined
  889. marc0s has left
  890. marc0s has joined
  891. lovetox has joined
  892. Andrzej has left
  893. kinetik has left
  894. marc0s has left
  895. marc0s has joined
  896. karoshi has left
  897. inky has left
  898. inky has joined
  899. gooya has left
  900. gooya has joined
  901. antranigv has left
  902. inky has left
  903. inky has joined
  904. adiaholic has left
  905. adiaholic has joined
  906. TheCoffeMaker has left
  907. TheCoffeMaker has joined
  908. antranigv has joined
  909. Dele Olajide has joined
  910. Dele Olajide has left
  911. adiaholic has left
  912. antranigv has left
  913. floretta has left
  914. floretta has joined
  915. inky has left
  916. restive_monk has joined
  917. karoshi has joined
  918. inky has joined
  919. antranigv has joined
  920. Andrzej has joined
  921. Half-Shot has left
  922. homebeach has left
  923. Matthew has left
  924. uhoreg has left
  925. Half-Shot has joined
  926. Matthew has joined
  927. homebeach has joined
  928. uhoreg has joined
  929. mh has left
  930. restive_monk has left
  931. harry837374884 has left
  932. harry837374884 has joined
  933. restive_monk has joined
  934. Andrzej has left
  935. Andrzej has joined
  936. Sam has left
  937. marc has left
  938. sbach has left
  939. adiaholic has joined
  940. sbach has joined
  941. TheCoffeMaker has left
  942. Andrzej has left
  943. Andrzej has joined
  944. TheCoffeMaker has joined
  945. raucao has left
  946. mh has joined
  947. inky has left
  948. inky has joined
  949. eevvoor has left
  950. eevvoor has joined
  951. Andrzej has left
  952. Andrzej has joined
  953. Andrzej has left
  954. Andrzej has joined
  955. adiaholic has left
  956. Andrzej has left
  957. Andrzej has joined
  958. restive_monk has left
  959. Sam has joined
  960. marc has joined
  961. gooya has left
  962. gooya has joined
  963. adiaholic has joined
  964. Andrzej has left
  965. bean has left
  966. BASSGOD has left
  967. inky has left
  968. bean has joined
  969. BASSGOD has joined
  970. inky has joined
  971. V_tor has joined
  972. Apollo has left
  973. TheCoffeMaker has left
  974. TheCoffeMaker has joined
  975. inky has left
  976. adiaholic has left
  977. bean has left
  978. BASSGOD has left
  979. Half-Shot has left
  980. homebeach has left
  981. Matthew has left
  982. uhoreg has left
  983. Half-Shot has joined
  984. Matthew has joined
  985. homebeach has joined
  986. uhoreg has joined
  987. atomicwatch has left
  988. bean has joined
  989. BASSGOD has joined
  990. inky has joined
  991. atomicwatch has joined
  992. restive_monk has joined
  993. inky has left
  994. antranigv has left
  995. restive_monk has left
  996. bean has left
  997. BASSGOD has left
  998. MattJ Topic change: As I posted a while ago to the list, xmpp.net is a home to some a handful of "not officially XSF" projects, most notably the IM Observatory (and probably its successor)
  999. MattJ One of the projects has requested a MUC, which could live on muc.xmpp.org but might be confusing as a "not officially XSF" thing
  1000. bean has joined
  1001. MattJ So one alternative option is to add a vhost for muc.xmpp.net or similar to this server
  1002. MattJ From an iteam perspective I'm fine with that, and from a board perspective I'm fine with that. Does anyone have a perspective from this would not be fine? If not, I'll go ahead and set it up soon.
  1003. konstantinos has left
  1004. moparisthebest or just stop playing that game and call it an official XSF thing
  1005. moparisthebest not official, only ran 100% by the same people running the XSF
  1006. bean has left
  1007. BASSGOD has joined
  1008. bean has joined
  1009. emus moparisthebest: that will end up in lots of "discussion" I assume?
  1010. MattJ Making things official XSF things is not always a good thing for such projects, or the XSF
  1011. emus I tend to agree with Matt
  1012. MattJ This is my opinion, I know we have had discussions in the past where people disagreed with it
  1013. MattJ i.e. some people are of the opinion that the XSF should aim to be and do everything XMPP, while I prefer to keep it mostly just a vehicle for publishing standards
  1014. BASSGOD has left
  1015. moparisthebest just seems silly to me to continue "it's not official ;D" vs "ok XSF runs it"
  1016. BASSGOD has joined
  1017. inky has joined
  1018. Yagiza has left
  1019. MattJ Partly because it has proven time and time again to be pretty bad at doing anything else, but mostly okay at the standards thing :)
  1020. emus ^^
  1021. inky has left
  1022. emus MattJ - nothing against the Newsletter - OKKK?!?!! 😉
  1023. inky has joined
  1024. mjk So it's a "trade mark" issue: "yea, we run it, but don't expect it to be as great as the main thing XSF is known for"? :)
  1025. MattJ emus, no, the newsletter has been a rare exception... but that's mostly thanks to your dedication :)
  1026. emus just kidding 🙂
  1027. stp has left
  1028. inky has left
  1029. Sam I was about to say the opposite: the XSF is really bad at the newsletter, it's an XSF project that got dumped on the shoulders (voluntarily, of course) of a single individual who gets almost no support from anyone else :) (I say counting myself as complicit in that)
  1030. inky has joined
  1031. Sam The newsletter itself is great, the XSF involvement not so much :)
  1032. inky has left
  1033. bean has left
  1034. BASSGOD has left
  1035. inky has joined
  1036. bean has joined
  1037. BASSGOD has joined
  1038. inky has left
  1039. inky has joined
  1040. emus Well, no its not on me of course, I always try to list and make transparent who supported and it alright like that
  1041. phoebos has joined
  1042. phoebos has left
  1043. emus Well, no its not on me of course, I always try to list and make transparent who supported and its alright like that
  1044. antranigv has joined
  1045. edhelas has left
  1046. edhelas has joined
  1047. harry837374884 has left
  1048. Alex has left
  1049. վարյա has left
  1050. վարյա has joined
  1051. վարյա has left
  1052. վարյա has joined
  1053. msavoritias has left
  1054. adiaholic has joined
  1055. gooya has left
  1056. gooya has joined
  1057. antranigv has left
  1058. flow thanks Link Mauve, but I think I new all that already and I am not sure how this answers my question. let's say I have <foo:elem xmlns:foo="foo.org" foo:favorite-lang="fr"/> and assume we attribute namespaces are the ones of the element unless specified otherwise, then this could be written as <elem xmlns="foo.org" favorite-lang="fr">. Why shouldn't I then be able to use favorite-lang on a different element, in a different namespace even
  1059. adiaholic has left
  1060. flow thanks Link Mauve, but I think I new all that already and I am not sure how this answers my question. let's say I have <foo:elem xmlns:foo="foo.org" foo:favorite-lang="fr"/> and assume attribute namespaces are the ones of the element unless specified otherwise, then this could be written as <elem xmlns="foo.org" favorite-lang="fr">. Why shouldn't I then be able to use favorite-lang on a different element, in a different namespace even
  1061. bean has left
  1062. inky has left
  1063. inky has joined
  1064. adiaholic has joined
  1065. Titi has left
  1066. inky has left
  1067. inky has joined
  1068. Titi has joined
  1069. adiaholic has left
  1070. papatutuwawa has left
  1071. adiaholic has joined
  1072. Menel has left
  1073. inky has left
  1074. L29Ah has left
  1075. L29Ah has joined
  1076. jgart has joined
  1077. inky has joined
  1078. adiaholic has left
  1079. jgart has left
  1080. inky has left
  1081. inky has joined
  1082. adiaholic has joined
  1083. Tobias has left
  1084. adiaholic has left
  1085. moparisthebest has left
  1086. عبود has joined
  1087. floretta has left
  1088. floretta has joined
  1089. goffi has left
  1090. adiaholic has joined
  1091. moparisthebest has joined
  1092. adiaholic has left
  1093. karoshi has left
  1094. عبود has left
  1095. վարյա has left
  1096. վարյա has joined
  1097. marc has left
  1098. gooya has left
  1099. inky has left
  1100. inky has joined
  1101. عبود has joined
  1102. mjk has left
  1103. mjk has joined
  1104. marc has joined
  1105. inky has left
  1106. inky has joined
  1107. floretta has left
  1108. tykayn has left
  1109. عبود has left
  1110. floretta has joined
  1111. marc has left
  1112. adiaholic has joined
  1113. marc0s has left
  1114. pasdesushi has left
  1115. marc0s has joined
  1116. adiaholic has left
  1117. antranigv has joined
  1118. Apollo has joined
  1119. debacle has left
  1120. djorz has left
  1121. emus has left
  1122. adiaholic has joined
  1123. antranigv has left
  1124. adiaholic has left
  1125. andrey.g has joined
  1126. mjk has left
  1127. Half-Shot has left
  1128. homebeach has left
  1129. Matthew has left
  1130. uhoreg has left
  1131. Half-Shot has joined
  1132. Matthew has joined
  1133. homebeach has joined
  1134. uhoreg has joined
  1135. Apollo has left
  1136. djorz has joined
  1137. xecks has left
  1138. BASSGOD has left
  1139. floretta has left
  1140. floretta has joined
  1141. BASSGOD has joined
  1142. BASSGOD has left
  1143. ti_gj06 has left
  1144. BASSGOD has joined