XSF Discussion - 2022-04-16

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  168. lovetox can someone write a simple status message in pep XEP
  169. lovetox i think anyone would migrate to this in an instant
  170. lovetox and we could safely ignore presence status message from that point on
  171. lovetox and no dont put show in their or anything else
  172. lovetox just the status message
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  205. MattJ lovetox: yes, you can!
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  212. lovetox i dont want to :/
  213. lovetox maybe there is someone who is really bored :D
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  219. lovetox ok im writing this
  220. MattJ 👩‍💻
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  255. flow got for it :)
  256. flow go for it :)
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  310. pep. <no-permanent-store/> should store until delivery to one device? In the XEP it only says where the message should not be stored (0136, 0313, chatroom logs). So what are other possibilities?
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  319. Thilo Molitor lovetox: i can help with that if you want
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  335. MattJ pep.: I guess that was the intention when I wrote it, yeah
  336. MattJ Don't know where it fits with plans to replace the current mod_offline behaviour
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  359. pep_ https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1177 I have opened this PR fwiw, I should un-draft it shortly
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  371. larma lovetox: I guess we first need a decent way to solve the issue of getting spammed with PEP notifications of things that haven't changed since last connect. PEP notification versioning anyone?
  372. Zash There's https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html
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  393. lovetox larma, of course this would be nice to solve, but i don’t see how its a pre-requirement for any XEP that builds on pubsub
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  395. Zash move status from presence to pep? I sorta imagined you'd take the user activity xep and remove the activity, leaving the <text> field pretty much
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  404. MattJ Maybe what should be done is to merge all the "User *" XEPs into one "User Status" XEP
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  406. MattJ We discussed at the summit how different apps have different status formats - e.g. some just show text, some emoji+text, some a picture or even a video
  407. pep. Right when that is removed from poezio :x
  408. pep. (and moved off to a plugin)
  409. lovetox MattJ, if you mean by one "User XEP" one PEP node
  410. lovetox this would really limit the functionality
  411. lovetox as i can set different permissions for different pep nodes
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  420. lovetox which seems important, with stuff like location for example
  421. MattJ Do you/users really care to individually set the visibility of what activity, mood and game you are playing?
  422. lovetox activity and mood are obsolete if you have a user status xep
  423. MattJ Yeah, location may be worth keeping separate. Also tune was one of the reasons that all these XEPs were made in the first place.
  424. lovetox what matters is, location and tune
  425. MattJ Because it changes frequently, and people were spamming <presence/> updates
  426. lovetox while i could see how tune has no special permission, as its also not very privacy sensitive topic
  427. lovetox location should be seperate
  428. MattJ I was mainly thinking that if you want to stick a specific <activity> payload in the status, that would be good
  429. MattJ and mood
  430. MattJ and clients can just implement/display that or not
  431. lovetox no its not good, its to complicated and from a time when no emojis existed
  432. MattJ Okay, just deprecate them and switch to <emoji>?
  433. lovetox just a <message>, and user can put in whatever he wants
  434. MattJ or don't try for any semantic separation, and just <text> and leave it up to client UIs?
  435. lovetox maybe in the future a, <url> to set a picture or whatever
  436. pep. If you want a client to interpret things in there, don't use "just" text. Otherwise it probably doesn't matter (but you may be limiting clients then to interpret things)
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  438. lovetox thats the point, i dont see why i want the client to interpret something
  439. lovetox you should display whats in the text
  440. lovetox that is waht the user wants to communicate
  441. lovetox not a client on the other end that starts to interpret something
  442. pep. Maybe you don't have a use-case for it, (I personally don't either), but it's not a reason to limit it for others is it
  443. MattJ The problem is that <text> is not currently the most commonly-used status type
  444. MattJ It works as a baseline, but many modern apps don't use it
  445. MattJ or use it in combination with something else
  446. lovetox of course you can always extend with links to videos, pictures whatever
  447. lovetox but text is needed
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  450. MattJ Agreed
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  456. pep. A whitelist access model with nobody in it still allows one's own account right?
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  459. lovetox thats what we use for bookmarks
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  461. pep. Ok
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  463. pep. I can just redirect to 0223 I guess for the privacy model
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  470. pep. Is the use of @id='current' specified anywhere?
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  472. Zash I think it's in '60 under singleton nodes
  473. Zash yeah https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl-singleton
  474. pep. Thanks
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  478. mjk pep.: nitpick: you refer to pgp e2ee xeps as examples of forward secrecy, but isn't the whole point of having pgp over xmpp is being able to decrypt archives with your one and only key?
  479. pep. I prefer?
  480. pep. Ah sorry, refer
  481. mjk :)
  482. pep. I took that from the previous protoXEP, maybe that's worth changing
  483. pep. I don't know if it's the whole point, but to pgp users that's definitely a feature yeah, I guess
  484. mjk Right 'the whole' is rather a hyperbole
  485. pep. If you have an idea how to rephrase this I'm happy to edit it
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  487. pep. Just removing mentions of PGP there? First paragraph(?)
  488. pep. mjk, you can still use PGP and want your messages not to be stored forever on the device right
  489. pep. This isn't incompatible
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  492. mjk Yeah, just remove pgp xep mentions, as they don't provide FS
  493. pep. Somebody getting hold of your device could "just" make it fetch everything again and *poof*, but I guess PGP users may be aware of this? (not?)
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  495. pep. That would be equivalent to trusting the server's privacy policy I guess
  496. mjk And depends on archiving settings, and those seem to be usually turned on by default
  497. pep. They're enabled almost automatically by clients using MAM
  498. pep. (all of them)
  499. pep. They're actually turned off by default on servers
  500. pep. At least I know it's the case in prosody, and I think ejabberd?
  501. mjk Not sure if by clients. I know Gajim and C. don't turn mess with mam settings
  502. pep. Yeah but they just need to require MAM archives for prosody to turn them on
  503. pep. Yeah but they just need to require MAM for prosody to turn them on
  504. mjk Oh, that's some dark xmpp corner
  505. pep. (Is 'MAM archives' also a what's it called? ATM Machine thing.)
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  511. pep. Currently I'm wondering if the minimal timer value should be in PEP so all devices of an account use the same value to prevent loops and all. Or maybe the solution to this is for clients not to send a new value whenever the sender sends something that is lower to the minimal value.
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  513. pep. Maybe I should just drop the minimal value and set a minimal value in the spec, but then I have to decide of a minimal value and I don't know everybody's use-case.
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  517. pep. Or I don't, and users will just decide between them.
  518. pep. Using PEP on MUC for this would have been nice though as there's an obvious node to go fetch
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  520. mjk Yea, magic numbers in specs is no good. For some, it can be weeks, for others, minutes
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  523. pep. I guess that's more of a social issue really and putting this in the spec is too much a hassle
  524. pep. If somebody wants their messages not to be readable well then they'll put 1 second and the recipient will complain.
  525. pep. (or 0 even, since that's allowed in the type)
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  527. pep. Yeah I've convinced myself
  528. mjk > Is 'MAM archives' also a what's it called? ATM Machine thing. Answering machine?
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  530. pep. No I meant to point out the repetition. The 'M' in ATM already is 'Machine'
  531. pep. The 'A' in MAM already means 'Archive'
  532. Zash Time to start using MAMA Archive
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  542. mjk Idk, MAM is archive 'management', not 'archive' itself
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  545. mjk I prefer saying just 'server archive'
  546. pep. Yeah but that can designate something different. Even though nowadays everybody does MAM
  547. mjk And MAM is a xep to manage that :)
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  580. mjk You won't believe this, but there's another instance of 'Draft' on xmpp.org: > […] production systems are advised to carefully consider whether it is appropriate to deploy implementations of this protocol before it advances to a status of Draft. That's in the red carpet of experimental xeps. This Draft thing really dies hard, perhaps a `grep -R Draft .` over the entire repo is needed?
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  585. mjk Yeah, that wasn't a very good idea
  586. mjk cleans chunks of xml off their terminal
  587. pep. mjk, I updated the spec if you want to have another look :)
  588. mjk Too busy repainting the bike shed rn!
  589. pep. :)
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  603. mjk https://http.xmpp.xyz:5281/upload/hJMoebU-CPeZ8QBp/pgCZZS_HQzCHhAtbSKJJvg.patch
  604. mjk jonas’: would this ↑ be alright, or are PRs much preferred?
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  606. mjk For the record, the rest of the Draft occurences are either in xeps' xml, or in a readme (which doesn't seem to be rendered anywhere?)
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  613. mjk pep.: > even though keys are deleted, message contents is retained both in server and client archives Effectively, when the ephemeral key is destroyed, the server-archived message is destroyed, as it now just consists of random bits. "Spooky deletion at a distance" is what I call it. :) So, when speaking of forward secrecy, server archive becomes irrelevant to privacy, only disk space
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  617. mjk Or I should say "when _every_ recepient of a message destroys the message key"
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  620. mjk Well, I think you understand the concepts, I'm just pointing out it's not very clearly expressed in that paragraph :)
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  623. jonas’ > jonas’: would this ↑ be alright, or are PRs much preferred? anything which does not generate an email will be lost this weekend
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  628. jonas’ mjk: ^
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  632. pep. mjk, hmm, indeed. That's also original phrasing that I kept (just the first sentence in the paragraph). Any suggestion?
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  677. mjk jonas’: okay then. It won't be lost in my repo, and I'll find time for github later :)
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  679. mjk pep.: start with deleting 'both in server and ' and see if the rest sticks?
  680. mjk I'll need to look at the intro more carefully, can't right now
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  711. pep. Yeah I just did that and the rest isn't too weird.. we'll see
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  730. rion Hey guys. Can anyone help me to pay for my xmpp.psi-im.org? I'll make a visa transfer to your card in advance.
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  732. rion Paypal/stripe do not work in Belarus
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